Vanguard chatter

[Slayerik]

I thought that had been established: more development team, maybe more players. I doubt that they expect some huge boost to EQ2 from whoever they get from VG though.

I would think if you had any hopes for your game, you wouldn't try to get them to play another one of your own games. Unless, that is, the game you are stealing them from sucks so bad that they are better off sniped by your company before someone else gets em.

[Engels]

Smells to me like they're thinking about shutting down VG for good. If they can get metrics showing that current VG players are now playing EQ2, they can shut VG down without a big kerfuffle.

[Numtini]

That's the only thing I can see being logical about that. Either they've decided to shut down or it's a fishing expedition to get data on how many subs they might be able to convert if they do.

But when I hear about VG, the thing I hear repeatedly is that there still isn't enough population to be viable for grouping. If that's the case, it seems like a really bad move to get people to move, even within your own company's offerings.

[SnakeCharmer]

They're just trying to squeeze as many games as they possibly can under the Station Pass - whether or not the games are competitive with each other.  It's like they're becoming the Wal Mart of MMOs. 

Seems like I remember SOE trying to come up with one launch pad to rule them all a la NC Soft? 

[Engels]

Its not a Station Pass thing. If you have subscribed to Vanguard, you get access to EQ2.

[Numtini]

It's also not a short trial, it's apparently until September.

[WindupAtheist]

This game has been targeted for termination.

[Trippy]

If they are going to terminate it this soon why would they have bought it from Sigil?

[Numtini]

I wonder if they didn't realize how bad things were. Or if after SOE bought it there was a higher attrition than they thought. There are a lot of people who really hate SOE and won't play anything they do and I suspect they were disproportionately represented in VG. (After all, SOE was the evil company that killed the misery of the vision.)

[Mandrel]

...
Like the odd copy of Auto Assault I still see on shelves.

Don't forget to pick up a time card

"Collector's item"?

[UnSub]

If they are going to terminate it this soon why would they have bought it from Sigil?

It sort of feels that SOE picked up Vangard as a 'wait and see' thing - if Vangard had launched and done well, hey, they've bought a good deal from Microsoft and have another MMO out there that people want to play. If it bombed, well, they can buy it out (which they did) and try to either keep it going on a skeleton crew or just dump it, streaming those who are still in Vangard (hopefully) to another SOE game.

They bought out a competitor to EQ / EQ2. If it had been successful, they would have been a plus. As is, they might slash and burn the game engine and use it in future projects.

[WindupAtheist]

They probably bought it for seven bucks worth of quarters and a six-pack of beer, and don't give a shit.

[Surlyboi]

They probably bought it for seven bucks worth of quarters and a six-pack of beer, and don't give a shit.

You forgot the bag of Munchos.

[Azazel]

I wonder if things like some of VG's art assets might not be transferrable over to EQ2 (models, skins, etc).

[Surlyboi]

Hell, give me that town with the big, sunken shipyard (Khal, I think it was) and the surrounding environments and populate it with decent shit and I'll explore it. Vanguard sucks balls, but the scenery was pretty goddamn awesome at times.

[CharlieMopps]

Well, I remember reading that the next EQ2 expansion is supposed to have large zone-less open areas... or at least Zones like what vanguard has. Now, if they are able to roll large chunks of Vanguard assets into EQ2... and Vanguard had no real storyline that anyone would miss... that could be worth hundreds of thousands of Dollars to SOE. Think of the shear number of weapons models they could add alone? Or the ship models? Terrain... everything... And they were basically leasing the engine, so if they got that monkey off their back the purchase could end up being very very profitable. If I were one of the Sigil employees that still had a job right now, I'd be getting my resume together.

[BigBlack]

I wonder if things like some of VG's art assets might not be transferrable over to EQ2 (models, skins, etc).

They'd have to be transferable - the issue is just how much work it'd take, which would vary depending upon individual tools used and whatnot.  Given the huge mass of art assets in Vanguard, I'd have to guess that the cost/benefit of putting some Vanguard and EQ2 programmers/artists together in a room for a month or two to write conversion tools is far better than what it would cost to churn out new, original art.

The bit about the next EQ2 expansion having some "Vanguard-like" features (large, open terrain) sure sounds like the writing on the wall to me.  I wouldn't be surprised if the timing of that expansion coincides with announcements about Vanguard's fate.

[Azazel]

Well thinking back to when I last played EQ1 a year or two ago.. by that time, every new expansion only seemed to have about 6 new non-boss mob models and a couple of skins for them. I have no idea if EQ2 follows the same ...cost effective model but if they do, then the VG art assets alone would be stringable-out for some time..

[CharlieMopps]

I wonder if things like some of VG's art assets might not be transferrable over to EQ2 (models, skins, etc).

They'd have to be transferable - the issue is just how much work it'd take, which would vary depending upon individual tools used and whatnot.  Given the huge mass of art assets in Vanguard, I'd have to guess that the cost/benefit of putting some Vanguard and EQ2 programmers/artists together in a room for a month or two to write conversion tools is far better than what it would cost to churn out new, original art.

The bit about the next EQ2 expansion having some "Vanguard-like" features (large, open terrain) sure sounds like the writing on the wall to me.  I wouldn't be surprised if the timing of that expansion coincides with announcements about Vanguard's fate.

Well, I've done some limited work with modeling inside user made content for mostly FPS games (Quake maps, etc...) and based on my very limited understanding of it, it works like this: You create the models and textures in universal tools like photoshop, 3D studio max, Maya, etc... and then you import those using whatever tools the engine developers gave you. The vast majority of the work is in photoshop, 3D studio max, etc... so if got copies of all Vanguards Art Assets still in their raw form as part of the deal, I see no reason why SOE couldn't just pop them right into their engine. That of course is assuming EQ2 isn't upgrading its engine with the next expansion. If you hear any announcements about EQ2 getting the Unreal 3 engine you'll know for a fact what's going on.

I personally would think that would be awsome. I just don't see how Vanguard could be saved. But if EQ2 gets a new engine, based loosely on Vanguards... and a sudden infusion of totally new content... wow... that would be a great game.

[shiznitz]

The problem is that the VG mob models aren't all that great, at least what I saw for the 18 levels I played.

[Lantyssa]

The real question is SOE able to take the 20 gigs of Vanguard and turn those assests into a few gigs of EQ2 expansion.

[Numtini]

Honestly, Vanguard graphics would be a downgrade from EQ2. That was what I could never "get" about Vanguard and how poorly it ran. You just weren't getting very much for all that computer effort.

[Stephen Zepp]

I wonder if things like some of VG's art assets might not be transferrable over to EQ2 (models, skins, etc).

They'd have to be transferable - the issue is just how much work it'd take, which would vary depending upon individual tools used and whatnot.  Given the huge mass of art assets in Vanguard, I'd have to guess that the cost/benefit of putting some Vanguard and EQ2 programmers/artists together in a room for a month or two to write conversion tools is far better than what it would cost to churn out new, original art.

The bit about the next EQ2 expansion having some "Vanguard-like" features (large, open terrain) sure sounds like the writing on the wall to me.  I wouldn't be surprised if the timing of that expansion coincides with announcements about Vanguard's fate.

Well, I've done some limited work with modeling inside user made content for mostly FPS games (Quake maps, etc...) and based on my very limited understanding of it, it works like this: You create the models and textures in universal tools like photoshop, 3D studio max, Maya, etc... and then you import those using whatever tools the engine developers gave you. The vast majority of the work is in photoshop, 3D studio max, etc... so if got copies of all Vanguards Art Assets still in their raw form as part of the deal, I see no reason why SOE couldn't just pop them right into their engine. That of course is assuming EQ2 isn't upgrading its engine with the next expansion. If you hear any announcements about EQ2 getting the Unreal 3 engine you'll know for a fact what's going on.

I personally would think that would be awsome. I just don't see how Vanguard could be saved. But if EQ2 gets a new engine, based loosely on Vanguards... and a sudden infusion of totally new content... wow... that would be a great game.

In theory, you are correct. However, other than raw geometry and textures, the animations, rigging, and in many cases engine specific "node information" within those raw models may be entirely different. The spectrum can go all the way from "drop in and play" to "better to just start over" for models, depending on engine differences. It's almost certain that unless both engines picked the same general node structure and rigging expectations, it is more work than just dropping them into EQ2's engine.

[Sky]

This game has been targeted for termination.

No! It's been targeted for BACONATION!

[bhodi]

with the right fixins?

http://www.baconsalt.com/

[CharlieMopps]

In theory, you are correct. However, other than raw geometry and textures, the animations, rigging, and in many cases engine specific "node information" within those raw models may be entirely different. The spectrum can go all the way from "drop in and play" to "better to just start over" for models, depending on engine differences. It's almost certain that unless both engines picked the same general node structure and rigging expectations, it is more work than just dropping them into EQ2's engine.

Come on... don't ruin my conspiracy theory!

[Stephen Zepp]

In theory, you are correct. However, other than raw geometry and textures, the animations, rigging, and in many cases engine specific "node information" within those raw models may be entirely different. The spectrum can go all the way from "drop in and play" to "better to just start over" for models, depending on engine differences. It's almost certain that unless both engines picked the same general node structure and rigging expectations, it is more work than just dropping them into EQ2's engine.

Come on... don't ruin my conspiracy theory!

Well, the upside is, if you assume the Vanguard models are of good to high artistic quality, that the re-rigging and such don't necessarily require pure talent...so that part could still work :)

Personally, I think they were simply purchasing the user base myself, and removing a competitor in the bargain, but that's pure un-educated opinion on my part.

[Venkman]

Heh, I just made that exact argument in the other thread. :)

[CharlieMopps]

Yea... but they are only getting about $300K per month from those people. ($15.99 X 20k Subs) and the Subs are disapearing fast. I think the key is finding out how much they paid for Vanguard. Anyone know?

[grunk]

The problem is that the VG mob models aren't all that great, at least what I saw for the 18 levels I played.

yeah but EQ2 char models are horid. I could never play the game past lvl30 because of how bad my toon looked. Then i saw some end game spells, and just fell out of my chair how bad they looked. End game armor sets also look like complete shat. IDK, EQ2 art is just piss poor. it is sad when you consider how nice the anmiations are during combat... i think those are mocaped?

IMO, EQ2 has a happy medium. Its not so easy to the point of wow yet its not as "hard" as games like L2/FFXI and early EQ (imo early EQ was easy)

If they would fix the models, heck id even give the game another try.

[cmlancas]

Uhm. What? The EQ2 models look a little like clay, but when they first came out they sure as hell beat anything else that was on the market.

And early EQ was easy? Did you not wipe fifteen times while breaking into hate in Crafted armor? Or was that just because we sucked so badly that we had no idea what we were doing.


Later EQ was much, much easier than the earlier versions. I remember when people thought Bronze or Banded Armor and Fine Steel Longswords were something to be had.

[schild]

Uhm. What? The EQ2 models look a little like clay, but when they first came out they sure as hell beat anything else that was on the market.

Naeg. EQ2 was Oblivion Bad. Nay, worse, at launch. The world however, was very easy.

[grunk]

Uhm. What? The EQ2 models look a little like clay, but when they first came out they sure as hell beat anything else that was on the market.

And early EQ was easy? Did you not wipe fifteen times while breaking into hate in Crafted armor? Or was that just because we sucked so badly that we had no idea what we were doing.


Later EQ was much, much easier than the earlier versions. I remember when people thought Bronze or Banded Armor and Fine Steel Longswords were something to be had.

I said, IMO it wasnt hard. There are things in L2 and FFXI that i consider hard, as in, even if you have a static, you still need to get lucky. EQ was a very relaxed game, there was nothing that stopped you from going ahead. I also, played in a static in EQ (3 man) so yeah, that was a huge help (and in FFXI i never had a static). I loved EQ.

Frankly, Diablo 2 has better spell animations then EQ2, sure the animations dont scale to the mob like EQ2 but EQ2 should not have such piss poor spell animations. FFXI has been out for 5+ years and the blm spells put EQ2 spells to complete shame. EQ2 has always had piss poor art. Vanguard imo has better char models then EQ2 so if they started using SoH character models, imo thats an upgrade.

[Slayerik]

Uhm. What? The EQ2 models look a little like clay, but when they first came out they sure as hell beat anything else that was on the market.

And early EQ was easy? Did you not wipe fifteen times while breaking into hate in Crafted armor? Or was that just because we sucked so badly that we had no idea what we were doing.


Later EQ was much, much easier than the earlier versions. I remember when people thought Bronze or Banded Armor and Fine Steel Longswords were something to be had.

I said, IMO it wasnt hard. There are things in L2 and FFXI that i consider hard, as in, even if you have a static, you still need to get lucky. EQ was a very relaxed game, there was nothing that stopped you from going ahead. I also, played in a static in EQ (3 man) so yeah, that was a huge help (and in FFXI i never had a static). I loved EQ.

Frankly, Diablo 2 has better spell animations then EQ2, sure the animations dont scale to the mob like EQ2 but EQ2 should not have such piss poor spell animations. FFXI has been out for 5+ years and the blm spells put EQ2 spells to complete shame. EQ2 has always had piss poor art. Vanguard imo has better char models then EQ2 so if they started using SoH character models, imo thats an upgrade.

Whatever a static is, I want one.

[grunk]

Uhm. What? The EQ2 models look a little like clay, but when they first came out they sure as hell beat anything else that was on the market.

And early EQ was easy? Did you not wipe fifteen times while breaking into hate in Crafted armor? Or was that just because we sucked so badly that we had no idea what we were doing.


Later EQ was much, much easier than the earlier versions. I remember when people thought Bronze or Banded Armor and Fine Steel Longswords were something to be had.

I said, IMO it wasnt hard. There are things in L2 and FFXI that i consider hard, as in, even if you have a static, you still need to get lucky. EQ was a very relaxed game, there was nothing that stopped you from going ahead. I also, played in a static in EQ (3 man) so yeah, that was a huge help (and in FFXI i never had a static). I loved EQ.

Frankly, Diablo 2 has better spell animations then EQ2, sure the animations dont scale to the mob like EQ2 but EQ2 should not have such piss poor spell animations. FFXI has been out for 5+ years and the blm spells put EQ2 spells to complete shame. EQ2 has always had piss poor art. Vanguard imo has better char models then EQ2 so if they started using SoH character models, imo thats an upgrade.

Whatever a static is, I want one.

a static is a set party. (eh, idk if that was a joke or not lol)