So, what do you think about the honor system?

[Strazos]

I still cannot fathom that people like Furor have now gotten "desirable" jobs, basically by being a deadbeat loser and bitching about a game.

It's not even like he had more skill than other players, he just had smoe of the most time to burn, and similar people around him.

8hrs of raiding, 7 days a week? Go Fuck Yourself.

[Margalis]

I still cannot fathom that people like Furor have now gotten "desirable" jobs, basically by being a deadbeat loser and bitching about a game.

Go look at some job postings for MMORPG games. They are a joke. A typical one will have things like "List your character levels in the different MMORPGs you've played." There isn't any room for someone to say "I understand MMORPGS quite well, but I haven't played that many for that long, because most of them aren't worth it."

It selects people who are already drinking the Kool-Aid. I've always found that absurd, that companies who are about to make X type of game need X-game enthusiasts. Yes, you want someone who KNOWS something about that type of game, but you don't need someone who loves all instances of that type of game.

There are guys who are great at an FPS game (for example) and would be lousy at making them. They are just two entirely different skills. Anyone remember the old PC Gamer articles by Thresh of Quake fame? Clearly an example of a guy who should stick to playing the games.

[Righ]

There is, what, one instance in the entire game that takes more than 10 people and more than 2 or 3 hours?  Hardly poopsock territory.  Even most of that one instance (MC) has, I understand, been nerfed to borderline triviality, rebalanced so a group of b.net retards with minimal strategy or organization can win.  Yay?

Some of the chucklebutts who goose-stepped their way through Molten Core pre-nerf will spew shit like that, and I suppose a bunch more people are destined to smear that shit around the walls. Post-nerf MC is not trivial, and still takes a competant raid group that knows what it is doing and can commit a large amount of time to the endeavor. Some of the bosses have been balanced rather than nerfed, so there isn't only one holy strategy relying on specific combinations of classes. The 'trash mobs' prior to the bosses are now much easier, so it doesn't take hours between each boss encounter. I fail to see why this is a bad thing, since the dogs, giants, elementals, etc were not particularly challenging, just tedious repetition that drove people away from doing repeated runs. However, why should I be surprised that people act like selfish cunts in a game based on loot acquisition?

[Stephen Zepp]

Just a bit of grapevine info: While I detested Furor and FoH's attitude during my entire stint at playing EQ, you have to admit here that they did a good job at Blizzard: little known fact/rumor, but what they did for WoW was design the quests---just about all of 'em. From at least this forum and other stories, the quests are one of the best parts about WoW (I don't know--I don't play it).

Food for thought as people bash Furor/Tigole...

[Rasix]

Just a bit of grapevine info: While I detested Furor and FoH's attitude during my entire stint at playing EQ, you have to admit here that they did a good job at Blizzard: little known fact/rumor, but what they did for WoW was design the quests---just about all of 'em. From at least this forum and other stories, the quests are one of the best parts about WoW (I don't know--I don't play it).

Food for thought as people bash Furor/Tigole...

Certain quests lines are done exceptionally well.  The writing is good, there's self deprecating humor (ie one quest says, "and you know this, because you are psychic" due to the random nature of the requirement for completing it), there's plenty of pop culture references and there's a decent variety.    While not a 100% success (there's still too much random kill x mob for y drops or flat out kill 100 of mob z), it's the best I've played in that regards.  EQ2's quests were pretty good too, but the evil stuff in Freeport was too much "KICK THE PUPPY, KICK HARD, GRRRRR EVIL ANGST!!!!".

I thought Tigole/Furor were assmonkeys in EQ especially Tigole since I had to share a server with him.  Being in a guild a tier below his meant that we were SHAT upon weekly at his whim.  His guild at one time announced that they wouldn't show any courtesy to other raiding guilds and would simply ninja engage any raid target even if someone was prepping for it (being miles better they could half ass most stuff we had trouble with).   But they've done stuff I respect in WoW, so, old hate dies rather easily.   (I'm not sure exactly what has Furor's grubby handprints on it, but I think it's quest design).

[Sky]

It's not that WoW has great quests, it's that the quests in so many games are uncreative and suck ass.

I think it's better to bring in someone who isn't pontificating over the proper motivational tools to drive players into the style you wish.

[Xanthippe]

Just a bit of grapevine info: While I detested Furor and FoH's attitude during my entire stint at playing EQ, you have to admit here that they did a good job at Blizzard: little known fact/rumor, but what they did for WoW was design the quests---just about all of 'em. From at least this forum and other stories, the quests are one of the best parts about WoW (I don't know--I don't play it).

Food for thought as people bash Furor/Tigole...

Not knowing anything about Furor/Tigole or EQ (other than my 4 hours of playing it and deciding it was not the game for me), I agree.  One of WoW's strengths is its quest system.  Very fun.

The other fun thing for me is the craft/gathering system.  For some reason I enjoy that, and the auction house buying/selling game.

[Yegolev]

It's not that WoW has great quests, it's that the quests in so many games are uncreative and suck ass.

I think it's better to bring in someone who isn't pontificating over the proper motivational tools to drive players into the style you wish.

Well said.

I wasted much of my life on The Nameless, and I don't particularly hold any grudges at this point.  EQ is entirely about catassing, and Tigole played the game well.  I got tired and left.  One man's garbage....

[HaemishM]

I've heard every bit as much wailing that the PvE endgame is insultingly easy and lacks depth. Regardless, with all content rapidly moving towards trivialization, which side should a designer err on? Make content too easy, and the players run through it way too fast for you to keep up with new content. Make content too hard, and the problem solves itself in a couple of months.

But see, here's the thing. ALL that content, including the squishy raid content is too easy. It doesn't take any real skill to take it down, OTHER THAN PATIENCE. Vox, Nagafen, Plane of Fear, Plane of Hate, Sky, Kunark Dragons, etc. etc. etc. weren't challenging, other than in having the patience and the time to find the gimmick and execute it, OR to get the right number of people leveled and itemed up to defeat it with sheer brute force. They don't take skill. They take organization and time, but they don't take skill at the point of execution.

If I honestly believed that anything other than those two things were required in order to beat the highest level raid stuff in any EQ Clone game, I'd change my tune. I do not. Fighting an AI script, especially one with as little leeway as MMOG's allow in processing power, is just not challenging. It's not dynamic.

[MrHat]

I've heard every bit as much wailing that the PvE endgame is insultingly easy and lacks depth. Regardless, with all content rapidly moving towards trivialization, which side should a designer err on? Make content too easy, and the players run through it way too fast for you to keep up with new content. Make content too hard, and the problem solves itself in a couple of months.

But see, here's the thing. ALL that content, including the squishy raid content is too easy. It doesn't take any real skill to take it down, OTHER THAN PATIENCE. Vox, Nagafen, Plane of Fear, Plane of Hate, Sky, Kunark Dragons, etc. etc. etc. weren't challenging, other than in having the patience and the time to find the gimmick and execute it, OR to get the right number of people leveled and itemed up to defeat it with sheer brute force. They don't take skill. They take organization and time, but they don't take skill at the point of execution.

If I honestly believed that anything other than those two things were required in order to beat the highest level raid stuff in any EQ Clone game, I'd change my tune. I do not. Fighting an AI script, especially one with as little leeway as MMOG's allow in processing power, is just not challenging. It's not dynamic.

Blame the internet then.

All games that I can remember short of popcap were just about getting to the boss, finding his gimmick (restarted or w/e) and then defeating him.  With the internet, we can just do a google: how to beat haemish.  Then execute it.

I would imagine that these raids and bosses are challenging the first couple time through.

[Sky]

I despise games with end bosses that have a gimmick you need to learn to beat them.

I blame consoles.

;)

[Malathor]

But see, here's the thing. ALL that content, including the squishy raid content is too easy. It doesn't take any real skill to take it down, OTHER THAN PATIENCE. Vox, Nagafen, Plane of Fear, Plane of Hate, Sky, Kunark Dragons, etc. etc. etc. weren't challenging, other than in having the patience and the time to find the gimmick and execute it, OR to get the right number of people leveled and itemed up to defeat it with sheer brute force. They don't take skill. They take organization and time, but they don't take skill at the point of execution.

If I honestly believed that anything other than those two things were required in order to beat the highest level raid stuff in any EQ Clone game, I'd change my tune. I do not. Fighting an AI script, especially one with as little leeway as MMOG's allow in processing power, is just not challenging. It's not dynamic.

Well, certainly I agree that the question of raid content requiring brute force as opposed to player skill has always been an issue (rather ironically an issue raised most often and most forcefully by the Furors and Thotts of the world), but to claim that all raid content in every MMORPG ever was simply a matter of numbers and time is simply not true.

The key word you used there is "execution", or in other words, carrying out a raid strat after you have it figured out. When raid content is designed well, executing a raid strat should require a high level of individual player skill from as many of the participants as possible. Indeed, I would regard your examples of pre-Kunark Fear and Sky to be good examples of raid zones that depended very heavily on organization and individual player skill, that is to say on execution; and very little on brute force, gear, and numbers. Yes, everyone could get it down eventually, but not everyone got it down sooner, with fewer people, shittier gear and no strats to read on the web, as opposed to later when it was pretty much trivial and you could screw up and still not wipe.  I had the chance to experience both situations, and if you think the difference between the two was just a matter of time spent, then I'm afraid you are very far off base.

Top EQ guilds in those days were quite small with a reason, too many people simply increased the chances of some retard fucking up and screwing everything. Even during Velious you regularly had groups of 40 doing what 80 person zergs could not, even when both knew just as well exactly what they were supposed to do to win. I also remember during that period wiping countless times to mobs that we had already taken down before, and of each say Dain or Cazic fight being different. Inevitably ,with enough time and mudinflation they eventually all become trivial, but for an extended period a number of raid zones managed to stay both dynamic and exciting. Somehow, with Luclin, all this pretty much went out the window.

IMHO good raid content should be chaotic, where different situations arise unavoidably and individual players have to respond quickly to those situations to be successful. To date WoW seems to have a pretty good grasp of this, I'll single out the Majordomo, Baron Geddon and Onyxia fights as being well designed. If you don't think player skill is (or was) involved in any of those, I really don't know what to say.

[HaemishM]

I'm saying that through multiple failures, any idiot can figure out the sequence of events needed to take down all of the raid content I've ever seen, provided it isn't bugged. That's called patience. And that's not a skill, that's a character trait. It can't be taught, and it can't be gained through practice. I've run large and small raid groups, I know exactly what organization is required. Hell, the more people you add onto a raid, the more it becomes like herding cats. I know exactly why Furor wanted less people in raids, because there were less chances of fuckups, it took a lot less time to organize and you had a better chance of vetting your raiders as trustworthy. Organization is an individual skill, but it's a meta-game skill. About the only in-game challenging part of it is getting around the rotten tools for communication most of the game's give us. I ran multi-guild EQ raids without the benefit of speech software like TeamSpeak, before there were raid channels, when the best there was for raid communication was all caps in OOC or SHOUT.

Had I had all my raiders in TS, I could have done what Furor did too.

Execution in MMOG's is really not a player skill. It's just real-time macroing. Maybe you consider that a player skill, I don't. It really doesn't require a lot of effort other than paying attention to the screen and dinging your magic pill button when the proper Pavlovian commands are given. There are very few things that change that up for the raid participants. That's why I don't consider raid content very good, or a very good basis for your "endgame" because it's a Mr. Ed situation. All you need is to put the peanut butter on your horses' lips, and they'll mouth the right words for you. And in the end, 3 or 4 of you will get rewarded with shinies that will make the raid more trivial next time.

Figuring out those strategies needed takes time and a willingness to lose now in order to win later. I don't consider that much of a skill.

[Ironwood]

  With the internet, we can just do a google: how to beat haemish.  Then execute it.

My Search came up "Rubber Hose"

That can't be right, surely ?

[Strazos]

I don't know, but I bet Poptart does.

Maybe she'll come answer after she's done shopping for new pairs of pants.

[Jayce]

Back to the topic, now that the system has had a chance to get out of the OMGNEWSTUFF stage, it's not so bad.

The addition of "honorless target" status on login and griffin landing has helped those problems.  I haven't been to TM/SS area since, so I don't know how things are going there, but maybe that's for the best.

My leveling has been more PvP heavy, and soloing will never be the same, but I have found that duoing, while you'd think it would give you twice the survivability, actually ends up giving you more that twice the benefit.  Then there's always instances.  At 52 I probably get a quarter level of XP and an item or two everytime I hit the Sunken Temple, so I don't mind doing it multiple times.

Playing on a PvP server in WoW is starting to seem more like playing on a PvP server in other games.  That's probably a good thing, though it was an adjustment.

[chinslim]

Uber-guilds are usually too busy clearing MC/Onyxia/outdoor bosses to be farming honor and the people dominating the honor ranks are seemingly random people who love zerging it up in TM/SS.

[Ironwood]

The addition of "honorless target" status on login and griffin landing has helped those problems.  I haven't been to TM/SS area since, so I don't know how things are going there, but maybe that's for the best.

Yes, it is.  Still the same nightly bloodbath with the Horde faring very badly indeed.  Just TRY and cash in a quest there.  Ever.

[El Gallo]

I'm saying that through multiple failures, any idiot can figure out the sequence of events needed to take down all of the raid content I've ever seen, provided it isn't bugged. That's called patience. And that's not a skill, that's a character trait. It can't be taught, and it can't be gained through practice. I've run large and small raid groups, I know exactly what organization is required.
Figuring out those strategies needed takes time and a willingness to lose now in order to win later. I don't consider that much of a skill.

Raid encounters are different now than they were back in the Luclin and earlier days (your last raids were Kunark, no?).  Much more random, much more chaotic.  Much, much more reliant on everyone in the raid knowing what the fuck they are doing.  Lots more adds, lot more damage spikes, lots more people dying at unexpected times and lots more one guy makes a mistake and everyone dies.  We still have a long way to go, but we have come a long way from the "log back in 25 minutes to preserve your buffs and then mindlessly zerg and hope we win" of original eq-kunark and the "tank corners the mob, all dd behind it, 6 second CH rotation now hit autoattack and go watch TV for 30 minutes" of velious-luclin.

I also disagree that discipline and patience cannot be learned.

There's more to skill than DOWN DOWN BACK BACK LOWPUNCH FOR TEH FATALITY !!11!!  If you only think twitch is skill, you are never going to be happy in this genre because (a) lag, like, exists and stuff and (b) a lot of the types of people these games attract think twitch is kind of boring and very, very tired.

[HaemishM]

Twitch is not the only type of player skill. Hell, I'd be happy if MMOG combat was SLOWED some to be a bit more thinking involved. Twitch is just one type of player skill. Building successful templates in a level-based game is another, though not one I hold a lot of respect for.

There's more player skill involved in a 2-minute battle of Medieval: Total War than there is in two years of playing a raid heavy game like EQ.

[WayAbvPar]

Something turn-based like ToEE would be sweet. Maybe make PvE real time, and go to turn-based for PvP? Probably too much of a headache.

[Hoax]

The problem you'll run into in any MMOG with varying fight "timing" is what was wrong w/ MxO.  You are in bullet time executing cool looking moves but everybody else is just spamming gunfire at a fast pace.  It just doesn't work too well.

[Strazos]

MxO should have just done bullet time backwards - durring Bullet Time, all your skills are recharged and executed much more quickly. If you picture yourself as an onlooker, it still makes perfect sense.

There, I just solved the problem, Pay Me Bitch! 

[AOFanboi]

It's not so much "bullet time" (MxO uses it for crits) that is the problem as the imbalance between Interlock and ranged combat.

Basically, if two+ mobs are fighting you and one of them goes mano-a-mano with you, the other mob can happily pump you full of "bullet code" with you incapable of even targeting them unless you manage to break out of Interlock. Luckily, there is a cheap skill that lets you avoid 3+ attempts at dragging you into melee, which should buy you some time. Also nice when running through mob-infested areas whwn you don't want to get into a fight.

Now, if they could only fix the bugged quests my characters are attempting...

I now return you to your regular discussions of that "yet more elves and dwarves" game. I am sure you never get enough.