So, what do you think about the honor system?

[HaemishM]

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

That might mean catass uber wannabes like Furor and Tigole can't farm weak as kitten NPC's for honor points. We cannot have that.

[Yegolev]

At any rate, I am excluded from complaining about PvP since I play on a PvP server.

That's a noble way of looking at it, but looked at another way, 30 on 1 being the norm isn't exactly my idea of PvP.

I'm really just quoting Blizzard's policy when I say that, but it is true to an extent.  You are, however, correct regarding the population imbalance.  I think the honor system has an inaccurate name, and I also assume that it was meant to cause faction conflict.  I would have called it The PvP Ladder System or some other descriptive name, but then I would not have inflicted this environment on a non-PvP server.

The bothersome conditions are merely exacerbated on my server, no new ones are created as it seems is happening on PvE and RP servers.  This just means that we PvPers cannot moan about dishonorable ganking and get any attention from Blizz.  I already risked life and productive effort by simply flying into TM or HF.  I have been killed inside or one step outside the inn in both TM and HF in the pre-honor-system era.  In Hammerfall there are places where Alliance can sit unmolested by the non-elite level 50 guards and shoot anyone setting foot outside the inn.  It is also possible to shoot through the Hammerfall walls.  Ganking in Hillsbrad has always been the national sport of the Alliance.  We (Horde) were already outnumbered 3:1, no matter what the devs say (re-read the post and you will note the conflicting statements regarding faction balance).  Being shot dead on landing at Gadgetzan was about a 25% chance; I figure now it must be no more than 75% but that depends on your hours.  Any trip to Booty Bay was likely suicide, especially if you were trying to use the boat, and it's no exaggeration to say that BB could not have possibly gotten more dangerous during primetime.  On top of all this, my main is an undead warrior.  It took a special kind of patience to play like that, and now this system has turned up the heat quite a bit.  I think implementing this outside Battlegrounds on non-PvP servers was a complete mistake.  Implementing it before Battlegrounds on PvP servers makes no sense to me.

[Yegolev]

Why don't they just tighten the level range restriction for honorable kills at the top end on the PvP servers.

This will not make me unfarmable.  If I am farmable, I will be farmed.  I'm sure that's in some catass handbook somewhere.  To make myself unfarmable requires a Hordely entourage of some sort, which has to outnumber or outlevel the Alliance farmers.  No more dancing to escape murder.  Also, there is a chance that ganking a grey will summon some greens or yellows, so everyone dies regardless of how many points are going to spout from my pinata-ass.

[El Gallo]

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

That might mean catass uber wannabes like Furor and Tigole can't farm weak as kitten NPC's for honor points. We cannot have that.

FYI you don't get get honor points from NPC's.

[Paelos]

BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

That might mean catass uber wannabes like Furor and Tigole can't farm weak as kitten NPC's for honor points. We cannot have that.

FYI you don't get get honor points from NPC's.

Mostly true, with the exception of city bosses.

[Signe]

There are all sorts of weirdo imbalances between Horde and Alliance.  The big boss at Stormwind is very difficult to get to whereas the one in Orgimmar has a back door path almost leading to his door.  There seems to be several more stealthy ways, such as the sewers in Undercity that mostly takes you past the guards.  There also seems to be a lot more elite high level guards around Alliance cities (especially Stormwind) than around Horde cities. 

The strangest thing is the Children's Week orphan thingy.  It seems that the Alliance orphans are unkillable but the Horde orphans are between levels 1 and 3 and can be killed.  I knew from the start that the Alliance areas were much better fleshed out than Horde, but I simply thought that they would continue to develop the Horde side until there was better balance.  Now I'm beginning to think that Pat Robertson is a major Blizzard investor and WoW is some sort of Christian Ender's Game.

[Lantien]

I was talking this over with a few friends who play, and we were kicking around some ideas that may alleviate the camping nature of honor points on the lower levels, especially on a PVP server perspective.  Realistically, this plan won't work, because of its restrictive nature, plus the fact that it flies in the face of some of the basic Blizzard tenants. My backgrouns is totally based on the Normal (PvE) servers, so I'm theorycrafting its effect on PvP gameplay.

I approached it from the perspective that for the most part, people are still trying to gain honor points even when the mechanics are working against you.  For instance, there's anecdotal evidence which suggests that if you're trying to accrue contribution points before the mid 50s, there's some sort of calculation based on character level that diminishes your effective, real points by some factor. In addition, it tries to account for some sort of dishonor penalty, although I'll point out its main failing towards the end.

1. Only allow the honor system to be in play when you're level 55 or higher. Anyone below that level will not gain HKs if they kill, or give an HK upon death normally. This accomplishes two things.  On PVP systems, this means there's no merit for a bunch of 50s to snipe 40s. On PvE systems, this puts in firm concrete terms that you really shouldn't be trying to farm for points, something that the calculations seem to suggest anyways. Also, it cements the fact that low level chars give no bonus whatsoever, don't bother trying to kill them unless you enjoy doing so, etc etc.

2. Implement this for a dishonor system: Upon a certain threshold of dishonor points, you are flagged for some period of time as HK-farmable, and no dishonor penalty is given if you are killed. Extend dishonor to mean the killing of players a certain level below you, as well as the killing of NPCs. On a PvP system, this would mean that if you're a level 40 killing 20s, you move up from being an annoyance to free points. On a PvE system, this gives 60s an even bigger incentive to flush out Civillian Killers. If you're especially harsh, one friend suggest to just dock a HK(or some amount of contribution points) for every Dishonorable Kill you incur on top of this. This system in combo would penalize people trying to advance up the honor system (by losing contribution points), and to some degree penalize outright griefers (by putting a bonus on your head, garnering the attention of contribution point farmers).

The biggest hole with this theory is the class example of the level 10-20 griefing 60s on a PVP server by just standing there, hoping to get hit with an AoE and triggering the dishonor flag. Short of convoluted mechanics to determine initiation of combat, admittedly this is a exploitable flaw.

3. Mark for the people who are HK-able with a different color.  Instead of Red, use Purple, Blue, Red outined in Gold, some other relatively identifyable color (not taking into account color-blindness, sorry). This hopefully will do a better job of showing people in HK-gathering mode what targets are good, and what targets are not worth it. In addition, if the character's death will result in a dishonorable kill point, mark that character in a different color. Perhaps even convert the color from Dishonorable Kill color to just a standard red color if the enemy tries to fight back. This would give the PC every chance to avoid combat and get out of the way when the fight is getting heavy, while not penalizing the high level char with an dishonorable kill point just because the PC is choosing to stay and fight. Following that, configure the NPC civilians to run to some set location when the fighting gets too close to them, as opposed to trying to fight.

The largest problem I see with this system is that all it appears the Blizzard is bent on having people of all levels access and utilize the honor system, even though it appears mathematically only the higher levels have any real method of advancement, short of extreme grinding for HKs. If that is their intention, this proposed plan runs in violation of that.

[HRose]

Wasn't it inevitable that the PVP servers start bleeding people eventually? Even with the restrictions, as soon as you start to give folks incentive and reward for participating/winning in PVP, more will happen. Which means more folks will get ganked and decide they really don't like that form of PVP and move on to regular servers.

Okay, but why still today we cannot think to PvP as something else than just a pointless genocide? Why the PvP cannot have a goal that is different than trasforming the players in bags of points?

[HaemishM]

VIKLAS!

You know good and damn well the answer to that question.

[Threash]

Apparently they are losing so many players that they just opened two new servers.  Week 2 and im still having fun, of course being 60 a rogue and alliance (although my server is suposed to be one of the few with a very slight horde advantage) i guess im the one everyone hates.  I was the 16th ranked player on the server last week and surprisingly that didn't get me laid, oh well maybe if i hit the top 10 ill get some.

[Sky]

I don't know how to address that. I can't even imagine playing on a PvP server, PRE-"Honor". Opening a new one? Yeesh. The influx of players would be from tertiary guilds on PvP servers looking to be king dog, I'd imagine.

Wasn't it inevitable that the PVP servers start bleeding people eventually?

Yes, I believe so. Whether people just got tired of always being vulnerable or were mmo newbs who didn't know any better.

But when a single patch has this amount of negative impact, almost across the board?

Be a Statesman and step up and admit you fucked up. Put 'er back in the oven and let 'er finish.

[Sky]

My stance on dishonor penalties: meet the new grief tool.

Period. Just like every other attempt to curb player behaviour via coded systems. But hey, MAYBE IT'LL WORK THIS TIME! Right.

[Malathor]

Apparently they are losing so many players that they just opened two new servers.  Week 2 and im still having fun, of course being 60 a rogue and alliance (although my server is suposed to be one of the few with a very slight horde advantage) i guess im the one everyone hates.  I was the 16th ranked player on the server last week and surprisingly that didn't get me laid, oh well maybe if i hit the top 10 ill get some.

Fun? Clearly you are ignorant of what I dub the HaemishM Principle. The HaemishM Principle states that no MMORPG can be fun if any player is allowed to have a larger E-Penis than HaemishM. If, somehow, you manage to have fun in such a MMORPG or otherwise question the HaemishM Principle, then obviously you are a no-life "catass" wallowing in feline urine and fated to die a virgin. The HaemishM Principle speaks for the "casual" player. HaemishM himself is so casual in regards to MMORPGs that he has found over 4500 ways of restating this exact same point on these boards in the year or so since it opened.

[Rasix]

My stance on dishonor penalties: meet the new grief tool.

Period. Just like every other attempt to curb player behaviour via coded systems. But hey, MAYBE IT'LL WORK THIS TIME! Right.

We really have to find some way to remove that sand from your vagina.

[Threash]

My stance on dishonor penalties: meet the new grief tool.

Period. Just like every other attempt to curb player behaviour via coded systems. But hey, MAYBE IT'LL WORK THIS TIME! Right.

We really have to find some way to remove that sand from your vagina.

I don't see how dishonor points for killing pcs wouldnt end up in a shit load more griefing than high levels killing lowbies brings.  Giving people that kind of power would result in endless griefing lowbies content in the knowledge that anyone trying to punish them will take a penalty for doing so.

[Rasix]

After a week in the system,  I can't see a reason for implementing any sort of dishonor system for PC kills.  This is on a PVE server, however, so the lower people getting plowed were doing so through their own volition.  However, you could argue this is also the case on PVP servers.  Really, you sign on for a pvp server and you deserve all you get.  Sorry, the tradeoff on a PVE server is you can't kill the retarded paladin dancing 50 feet from xroads.   

But isn't this a moot point since they've stated there will never be dishonor for killing PCs?  So the topic on conversation would shift to NPC killing and I'm not quite sure how restricting dishonorable NPCs kills is any sort of big deal or huge grief tactic.  I'm just not seeing the huge injustice or reason for crying...

As for lobbing one at Sky, well, I have to toss one at him every once in a while.   

[HaemishM]

Apparently they are losing so many players that they just opened two new servers.  Week 2 and im still having fun, of course being 60 a rogue and alliance (although my server is suposed to be one of the few with a very slight horde advantage) i guess im the one everyone hates.  I was the 16th ranked player on the server last week and surprisingly that didn't get me laid, oh well maybe if i hit the top 10 ill get some.

Fun? Clearly you are ignorant of what I dub the HaemishM Principle. The HaemishM Principle states that no MMORPG can be fun if any player is allowed to have a larger E-Penis than HaemishM. If, somehow, you manage to have fun in such a MMORPG or otherwise question the HaemishM Principle, then obviously you are a no-life "catass" wallowing in feline urine and fated to die a virgin. The HaemishM Principle speaks for the "casual" player. HaemishM himself is so casual in regards to MMORPGs that he has found over 4500 ways of restating this exact same point on these boards in the year or so since it opened.

How is saying that most people aren't hardcore catasses who like raid instances that take 10 hours and a military clockwork organization in any way equate to no player is allowed to have a bigger E-Peen than myself? Yes, some people find that fun. Most people do not have the stomach for it.

And I wouldn't have to keep restating it if someone would listen. WoW is an MMOG that had a lot of the casual player in mind when it was designed. However, the two things (besides the bugs) that have caused the most wailing from the WoW populace have been targeted directly for the hardcore catass, the PVE endgame and the honor system. It ain't about E-Peen, it's about designing systems that are fair to the majority of your players.

[Hoax]

Shouldn't it be about...

STOP PLAYING EQ CLONE of Shiney +1 if you dont want to be in a game that only caters to power guilds?

Then again, perhaps its time that people realized that there will always be content for those who are better at a game.  If you design a game where levels/equipment > player skill (which we can change to time spent playing > player skill) then there will be parts of the game that are restricted to those who play more.  Afterall you can't partake in top competition team fps, or even play on certain top-tier servers if you aren't very good at the given game. 

The problem here is, you might be a better/smarter player then Avg Joe Catass but he plays more and in the shitty generation of mmog's we've been dealing with since EQ's launch /played is all that matters.

[Rasix]

I think we'll need to see how this all plays out in the battlegrounds before jumping to the "uberguilds will pwn all" conclusion.  I do think the more dedicated power player and perhaps more dedicated  gank squads will excell.  It will, in my view, take a lot of dedication to owning up the battlegrounds to succeed.  I'm not sure some guilds will make a more dedicated effort to dominate the battlegrounds (once the initial shiny wears off) because many are still caught up in the pve equipment hunt.  Not every guild is to the point where they're clearing to Ragnaros and farming Onyxia weekly, but more are starting to get there.  Some still have a lot of open goals in front of them that won't be realized in any short time frame. 

However, as more blow through the end game content (Ragnaros was just beaten), there will be more bored upper tier guilds looking to try out their uber equipment.  How this inherent and somewhat large equipment rift is going to fuck with things, who knows?  I assume at some point it will get problematic and you might have the same people owning the upper level pve as well as pvp (I know some people that are in the top 10 horde side that still make every pve raid, it's sick).   Then it simply comes back to time and not guild status; although a lot those two go hand in hand in a lot of cases.

I don't think the system will reward those that only play for maybe a less than an hour a day.  They will never be higher than the lower levels of the system no matter how good they are.  Thus they won't get any real access to any of the cool rewards. The only thing they'll have is their skill and the hope that the system put in is fun.  At least until Blizzard gets a real chance to look at the system once the initial short comings are exposed.  Then they may shift it over to a more casual friendly system with a more even playing ground, but who knows.  Dark Age never learned this, and if we know anything, it's that these companies excel at making the same mistakes as their predecessors.   

As a somewhat aside, the only real major catasserific activity in the end game is Molten Core.  Just about any other instance can be cleared in under 3 hours and many times under 2 (Baron runs, UBRS, DM).  Molten Core is really the only activity that reminds me sickeningly of Everquest.  You really have to eat your meals at your monitor and neglect the stench that's wafting off your body.  Even the Onyxia Key, pain in the ass that it is, can be handled in digestable chunks.   

And... my under 10 days played character experiment is almost complete.  Rogue is about 1/3 to 1/2 through 58 and I think I've got 20 hours to spare. 

[Malathor]

How is saying that most people aren't hardcore catasses who like raid instances that take 10 hours and a military clockwork organization in any way equate to no player is allowed to have a bigger E-Peen than myself? Yes, some people find that fun. Most people do not have the stomach for it.

This would be a fair point if it were not for mudflation and the rapid trivialization of raid content. Two months ago doing say the first 8 bosses in MC would indeed have taken 40 people with a lot of free time, 10 hours and a great deal of organization. Today that same content can be done in 5 hours with 30 people by organized raiding guild, and 40 person pick-up groups are managing to hack their way through MC or kill Onyxia. In 2-3 more months Onyxia and most of MC will be a joke, little harder than UBRS is now and it will just keep getting easier. The same thing happened in EQ of course, but in WoW it is happening much faster. You will be able to experience the content, all of it, albeit at a somewhat different pace. So what is the problem then, but a question of comparing E-Peens?

And I wouldn't have to keep restating it if someone would listen. WoW is an MMOG that had a lot of the casual player in mind when it was designed. However, the two things (besides the bugs) that have caused the most wailing from the WoW populace have been targeted directly for the hardcore catass, the PVE endgame and the honor system. It ain't about E-Peen, it's about designing systems that are fair to the majority of your players.

I've heard every bit as much wailing that the PvE endgame is insultingly easy and lacks depth. Regardless, with all content rapidly moving towards trivialization, which side should a designer err on? Make content too easy, and the players run through it way too fast for you to keep up with new content. Make content too hard, and the problem solves itself in a couple of months.

Then there's that word you used, "fair". Is there something to "fair" other than a question who to award those Uber Flaming Swords of Destruction to, and how is that not basically a measuring of E-Peens?

[Jayce]

I've heard every bit as much wailing that the PvE endgame is insultingly easy and lacks depth. Regardless, with all content rapidly moving towards trivialization, which side should a designer err on? Make content too easy, and the players run through it way too fast for you to keep up with new content. Make content too hard, and the problem solves itself in a couple of months.

I say let the catasserific guilds burn themselves out and leave the game.  Out of WoW's 6 septillion subscribers, how many do you think are those people?  Less than a thousand across all servers I'll bet.

WoW will get on quite well without them and in actuality, better.  Let them go play Lineage 2 or something really painful to prove their e-peen size.

[El Gallo]

I think some of the h8 here is a bit misdirected.  So I will follow with some rambling, mostly off topic h8 of my own.  There is, what, one instance in the entire game that takes more than 10 people and more than 2 or 3 hours?  Hardly poopsock territory.  Even most of that one instance (MC) has, I understand, been nerfed to borderline triviality, rebalanced so a group of b.net retards with minimal strategy or organization can win.  Yay?  And you can do it in fairly small chunks of time if you want for the most part.

People cry that these games are too mindless.  Then they cry when anything in these game require any degree of organization beyond monkeys hitting random keys and getting YOU WIN YOU WIN YOU WIN!!!!! messages. 

Really, do people sit up late at night trying to cry themselves to sleep because they will never have their tier two armor set?  Do they get ready to fuck their wives and suddenly fall limp because they don't think they'll ever get that quest sword from Onyxia?  I doubt I will get those things any year soon and you know what?  I don't really give a flying fuck.  Somewhere, out there, there's a dude with bigger numbers than I will ever have.  And...?  I've just never understood the "casual board warrior" drive to furiously masturbate over Furor's magelo profile and convince themselves that their own play experience is meaningless unless they get one just like it RIGHT NOW OR I QUIT.

Same with this PvP shit.  First, if you don't want to get ganked when levelling, don't play on a PvP server.  Not complicated.  If you thought going into the game that one guy hitting whatever the fuck keys he feels like because its fun would be able to beat a team of well organized PvPers, you should shoot yourself in the head.  If you thought PvP in this game would not benefit organized people over disorganized ones, you should shoot yourself in the head.  If you thought PvP servers in this game would not be largely populated by assmonkeys, you should shoot yourself in the head.  But it looks like Blizzard will give you an option short of shooting yourself in the head: moving to a PvE server.

My little minotaur dude is rank:grunt.  I thought it was cool to get a little Horde tabard and a nifty trinket.  I PvP maybe one or two evenings a week.  I suck at it.  I lose more than I win.  It's fun to chop up gnomes with my giant skull shaped axe once in a while, though.  I will never get the GRAND UBER GENERALLISIMO OF THE HORDE title.  I will never get the GRAND UBER GENERERALLISIMO OF THE HORDE sword.  I will never get the GRAND UBER GENERALLISIMO OF THE HORDE mount, either.  Some guy who plays a lot more than I do, and plays with a tight group of other people who know each other and know PvP strategy in this game much better than I ever will, will get those things.  And I don't care.  At all.

Right now, there's enough stuff for me to do in WoW. there's accessable ways to make my little virtual minotaur dude's numbers go up, sparkly pointy things to get, and there are still some things I haven't seen but can get to.  EQ was not like that.  I reached a point in that game where I could not do shit unless I had 70 other people with me for hours and hours at a time almost every single night.  If WoW becomes like that, I'll quit.  Now, I do think that Blizzard has been inexcusably SLOW AS FUCK to get new shit out, and need to get on the ball.  We need more 1-2 group dungeons, more challenging quests, etc.  And we need that shit regularly.  They have upwards of 2 million people sending 15 bucks a month, they should be faster with the content.  Much faster.

I understand that some people here (Sky) are dedicated soloers, and thus have legitimate reasons to be unhappy about the endgame.  It is not a game you can solo all the time in and expect to advance once you have 12-15 or so days /played, unless you are really into alts.  For me, as long as it stays a game where I can keep advancing and doing different things playing solo once in a while, mostly playing with a group of 2-10, and occasionally doing things in a larger raid, it sounds like about as good as I could have possibly expected from this genre.

[Sky]

Well, I am in Bat Country, now. That's progress, right? ;)

So let's do a raid this weekend!

[El Gallo]

Well, I am in Bat Country, now. That's progress, right? ;)

So let's do a raid this weekend!

Catass.

[Sky]

I wondered what that smell was.

I don't even have a cat!

[Fabricated]

And...?  I've just never understood the "casual board warrior" drive to furiously masturbate over Furor's magelo profile and convince themselves that their own play experience is meaningless unless they get one just like it RIGHT NOW OR I QUIT.

Wait, who's Furor?

Please tell me WoW isn't already to the point where there are "Legendary" players known across all the servers. Christ.

[WayAbvPar]

Furor is head cockholster for Fires of Heaven, or was at one time. Unless I am confused again, which is entirely too possible.

[Calantus]

And...?  I've just never understood the "casual board warrior" drive to furiously masturbate over Furor's magelo profile and convince themselves that their own play experience is meaningless unless they get one just like it RIGHT NOW OR I QUIT.

Wait, who's Furor?

Please tell me WoW isn't already to the point where there are "Legendary" players known across all the servers. Christ.

Only from videos.

[Fabricated]

And...? I've just never understood the "casual board warrior" drive to furiously masturbate over Furor's magelo profile and convince themselves that their own play experience is meaningless unless they get one just like it RIGHT NOW OR I QUIT.

Wait, who's Furor?

Please tell me WoW isn't already to the point where there are "Legendary" players known across all the servers. Christ.

Only from videos.

Okay, I guess it's EQ stuff. Never have played EQ, so I didn't know.

[Yegolev]

Extend dishonor to mean the killing of players a certain level below you, as well as the killing of NPCs. On a PvP system, this would mean that if you're a level 40 killing 20s, you move up from being an annoyance to free points. On a PvE system, this gives 60s an even bigger incentive to flush out Civillian Killers. If you're especially harsh, one friend suggest to just dock a HK(or some amount of contribution points) for every Dishonorable Kill you incur on top of this. This system in combo would penalize people trying to advance up the honor system (by losing contribution points), and to some degree penalize outright griefers (by putting a bonus on your head, garnering the attention of contribution point farmers).

If I might, I'd like to point out the problem from a PvP-server perspective.  "Documents" exist detailing at least one murder of a level 60 by a herd of level 5 players, pre-honor system to boot.  Granted, the level 60 was being stupid, however the potential of reverse-griefing, as it were, should not be ignored.  Within two hours of implementation of dishonor for killing lowbie PCs, a swarm of baby night elves will descend on Crushridge's Orgrimmar, the likes of which not even God has seen.

After a week in the system, I can't see a reason for implementing any sort of dishonor system for PC kills. This is on a PVE server, however, so the lower people getting plowed were doing so through their own volition. However, you could argue this is also the case on PVP servers. Really, you sign on for a pvp server and you deserve all you get. Sorry, the tradeoff on a PVE server is you can't kill the retarded paladin dancing 50 feet from xroads.

Exactly!  As I mentioned, I can't complain about PvP on a PvP server.  I made my coffin, I will lie in it, and it really is quite comfy if you are into that sort of thing.  What I see is basically Blizz playing whack-a-mole with the griefing issue: you plug one hole and the bastards erupt out of some other, larger hole.

I don't play on a PvE server, but I will tell you that I would have absolutely no problem ignoring a player being stupid when I know perfectly well that I would get killed if I engage.  In fact, Crossroads is not contested on a PvP server, so any lowbie getting ganked in the Barrens has only themselves to blame.  You muster your guild first... but that would require organization, sorry.  >_<  I do agree with some penalty for killing quest NPCs in non-contested areas, since that is in line with the nature of the area.  Penalizing people for erasing the population of Splintertree, however, just sucks all the fun out of the game.

[Lantien]

Extend dishonor to mean the killing of players a certain level below you, as well as the killing of NPCs. On a PvP system, this would mean that if you're a level 40 killing 20s, you move up from being an annoyance to free points. On a PvE system, this gives 60s an even bigger incentive to flush out Civillian Killers. If you're especially harsh, one friend suggest to just dock a HK(or some amount of contribution points) for every Dishonorable Kill you incur on top of this. This system in combo would penalize people trying to advance up the honor system (by losing contribution points), and to some degree penalize outright griefers (by putting a bonus on your head, garnering the attention of contribution point farmers).

If I might, I'd like to point out the problem from a PvP-server perspective.  "Documents" exist detailing at least one murder of a level 60 by a herd of level 5 players, pre-honor system to boot.  Granted, the level 60 was being stupid, however the potential of reverse-griefing, as it were, should not be ignored.  Within two hours of implementation of dishonor for killing lowbie PCs, a swarm of baby night elves will descend on Crushridge's Orgrimmar, the likes of which not even God has seen.

Oh, I guess I forgot to put that fix in there. As soon as a lowbie pc initiates combat against a character radically higher than itself, the PC flags himself (using the flag methodology that I described earlier) as not an Dishonor kill, but just a general Red. Admittedly, there are a few counter points in this fix that would have to be addressed:

1. Is this even technically viable?  I have no clue.  However, since I'm proposing a system of color coded flags in the first place without even wondering about the viability of THAT, I imagine I'm way too ensconsed in the world of theorycraft to worry about that detail.

2. You're still going to have the no-nothing gamer who's going to complain about not knowing that if you bum rushed a 60 at level 30, and the 60 didn't incur a penalty, that's not fair in the context of the game world, making a fair society for poor 30s to defend their lands, etc etc etc. I can't say I have a ton of sympathy for that defense.

3. You could also argue that this gives lower level characters a hidden edge, to "get the drop" on high level characters. I come from a PvE server perpective, where this has always been the case, so I'm pretty blase about this being such a horrible thing, compared to the current scenario.

I think you're coming from the view that I myself still struggle with, which is the notion of the dishonor penalty being required in the first place.  This was cooked up over time, talking with a bunch of people playing on different servers, with different perspectives. One player was an undead mage, playing on a horde dominated PVP server.  Another player was a human Paladin, playing on an alliance dominated PvE server.  I myself play on a heavily alliance dominated PvE server, as a human warrior.

As such, we contributed different viewpoints as we've discussed and debated over the honor system. While I can respect that you're willing to accept that the honor system is what you should of expected as a PVP player, I'd point out that many people were playing the PVP server because they were expecting that on top of an honor system, there was documenation and discussion about also running a dishonor system to penalize grief play.  It's not the strongest defense in the world, but it's certainly one to take into consideration, especially in the context of there being so many MMO Newbies in this game.  I know we have to break their heart eventually....

Rasix, my main concern right now is a pack of 60s being tools in town and just slaughtering Civilians to induce the lowbies to get the 60s to defend, which is what high level chars are really looking for at this point. I'm noticing currently on the server most Horde are pretty sick and tired of being served up to the Alliance to die. However, if a group of 60s continually demolish the quest givers that lower level chars need to continue, won't the crying from the Horde spur 60s to go out and defend? It's really easy to say "stop taking quests in Hillsbrad and level elsewhere", but this could easily be replicated in other towns, like Crossroads, etc, where the alternatives are fewer/more difficult to follow through on. I do think that until battlegrounds rolls out, and we have a few weeks for the public to decide where the more optimal contribution point accumulation is coming from, rolling out a dishonor penalty is probably not the best idea.  It's possible that Kalgan is right, and the BGs will eliminate most of the problems, taking us back to a somewhat more ruthless pre-honor patch state. Can't say I'll hold my breath on that one though.

[Margalis]

People cry that these games are too mindless.  Then they cry when anything in these game require any degree of organization beyond monkeys hitting random keys and getting YOU WIN YOU WIN YOU WIN!!!!! messages. 

My problem is that organization is not a skill I'm interested in. Maybe because I'm anti-social, or because I don't play games that often.

If you look at a game like a fighting game, there are going to be people that are better than you, and have spent more time playing than you. And those two are certainly related. But, you can point out the concrete ways they are better. They know the matchups better, they execute moves better. It's not JUST that they spent more time, or that they know 50 other people who are also good.

I don't like games where making friends is required to be good at the game.

There are ways to structure games where you can play as groups but still rely on individual skill. Baseball is a lot like that. Being coordinated with your teammates doesn't really make that much difference in baseball. The problem with a lot of endgame content and games like Guild Wars is WHO you know is really the most important aspect.

If I am going to be bad at a game, I want it to be because my adversary is just more skilled. I don't consider playing a lot a skill, not do I consider joining a guild a skill.

[pants]

Wait, who's Furor?

Please tell me WoW isn't already to the point where there are "Legendary" players known across all the servers. Christ.

As has been said, Furor was head cockmaster for EQ's highest profile cockmaster guild, Fires of Heaven.  They were one of the most accomplished in terms of killing shit early and often, but they got famous for the whole 'We are more important than everyone else, fuck out of our way' attitude which they very loudly publicised.

In addition, Furor would vent loudly and obscenely whenever EQ released an expansion which had buggy or incomplete raid content in it (which, to be fair, was pretty much every expansion - so someone had to rant about it).

Furor also would rant loud and long about any attempt to make high level content become too 'easy' (where easy meant you didnt need 30 of your close friends to raid with you for 6 hours a night, 5 days a week).

Ironically, Furor now works for Blizzard, designing their high level raid content.

EDIT - Merusk pointed out I'd exaggerated the number of close friends Furor wanted to have.

[Merusk]

Furor was also one of the first guys to call bullshit on Content Cockblocks (ssra temple and Vex Thal Keys)  and needing 72+ people to raid. He wasn't a fan of either and they were his first "i quit" temper-tantrum. FoH did their thing with only about 32 people which is why they became irrelevant when PoP came out and you needed to have those 72 man raids for things like the Rathe council.

 The man's a dick, and I can't stand him for the arrogance and holier than thou attitude.  However, he wasn't the one pushing for ever-more-zerged encounters, SOE was with their "the DM must win" mindset.

[HRose]

Furor is nothing. Tigole is nothing.

I just found out that who's behind this "awsome" PvP system is "Evocare", UO Lead Designer of the two best expansions: Lord British Return and Age of Shadow.