So, what do you think about the honor system?

[Sky]

Kalgan, take me away!



While TM and XR are pits of suck, I did have a great running battle in Arathi Highlands, around 12v12. The pally who finally killed me (he owed me two) turned up in the Undercity by the bank last night, flagged. I was on my rogue, but my hunter was bound to undercity, I got my main. He had to be pissed that it was me.

While I've found a couple good experiences, overall I'd say the system is summed up by the picture of donkey balls (is that monkey balls in japan?). I'll even leave out the dead horse rant about level-based pvp being retarded or anything about unbalanced classes. The whole rewards thing is for hardcore only, given not just the relative nature of the rankings, but also the maintenance needed to keep that ranking.

I'm not even a rank yet.

[Merusk]

1) AoEing as a mage doesn't net you more contribution points

AOEing the opposing side's Zerg as a Mage/ Priest duo (for the shielded Blink/Nuke strat I've seen Hordies on my side use so very effectively. Add-in the engineering invisi cloak on the priest for a fear after the mage nukes for a very nice combo.) vs the raid/ group structure WILL net you more points.  Provided you do it in the manner Mr. Hat described doing with his rogue.  You're doing 1/4-1/2 of the damage to a target and dividing it among 2 players instead of 25+.  Point-win you.

[Abel]

Do we know this?  Has anyone compared the honour obtained from killing a foe 3 levels above you vs. one 3 levels below you?

On the WoW boards I think I remember a dev reply with approximate CPs.

You kill a lvl 60 at lvl 60, rank 1 : 166 points
You kill a lvl 48 at lvl 60, rank 1 : 20 points

Killing higher Honor Ranks also net more CPs, so in reality the disparancy between those two will be even bigger. As a conclusion (as I posted earlier) specifically going after low greens is simply counterproductive.

EDIT : of course I can't find the thread anymore where those numbers come from, so I hope my memory serves me right.

[Malathor]

I'm not even a rank yet.

No one is. They haven't calculated ranks yet. It's expected the first set of rankings will come out after the downtime tomorrow.

Although I've had a ton of fun over the last week, I'm quite worried about the long term effect the PvP rewards system is having on population imbalances. Life has become very difficult on the outnumbered side of PvP servers and history has shown that such problems are anything but self-correcting. Blizzard must do something to address it, and telling us  that "your figures are wrong there's no significant imbalance on PvP servers" i.e. it's all in your head, is not that something.

[Triforcer]

I'm not even a rank yet.

No one is. They haven't calculated ranks yet. It's expected the first set of rankings will come out after the downtime tomorrow.

Although I've had a ton of fun over the last week, I'm quite worried about the long term effect the PvP rewards system is having on population imbalances. Life has become very difficult on the outnumbered side of PvP servers and history has shown that such problems are anything but self-correcting. Blizzard must do something to address it, and telling us  that "your figures are wrong there's no significant imbalance on PvP servers" i.e. it's all in your head, is not that something.

Couldn't the argument be made that the honor system will correct the population imbalance?  If you are on a 3:1 ratio Alliance server, you don't have a very target rich environment when hunting Horde....I'd think it'd be a lot harder to get many kills.

[jpark]

I'm not even a rank yet.

No one is. They haven't calculated ranks yet. It's expected the first set of rankings will come out after the downtime tomorrow.

Although I've had a ton of fun over the last week, I'm quite worried about the long term effect the PvP rewards system is having on population imbalances. Life has become very difficult on the outnumbered side of PvP servers and history has shown that such problems are anything but self-correcting. Blizzard must do something to address it, and telling us  that "your figures are wrong there's no significant imbalance on PvP servers" i.e. it's all in your head, is not that something.

Couldn't the argument be made that the honor system will correct the population imbalance?  If you are on a 3:1 ratio Alliance server, you don't have a very target rich environment when hunting Horde....I'd think it'd be a lot harder to get many kills.

Thinking of shadowbane - the problem did not really self correct - there was a great tendency for the dominating force just to get bigger.

Because builds were sooo flexible in SB - it was possible to come up with an undiscovered uber strategy and annihilate a larger force through the use of a unique build.  But builds in WoW are nowhere near that flexible or deep - good system - but it is for flavor only (e.g. talents).

[Signe]

I suppose the whole thing could be fixed by simply changing the name to 'dishonor system'.  From what I've heard, about 3K or so quit within a few days, citing the honor system as their reason.  It really does seem to be quite a mess.  They're implementing the Battlegrounds two months early in an attempt to placate people. This is a total hearsay using the finest SirBruce type sources.  I wonder how broken that patch will be?  If, by some stroke of previously unheard of luck in this business, the battlegrounds go well, it'll probably have the desired effect.  I suppose it is damage control by avoiding the damage.  Or something.

Being the smart cookie I am, I have avoided the frustration by rolling a new character who will level very slowly.  Hopefully slowly enough so I can avoid dealing with it until they come up with something that doesn't cause huge masses of players to become honourably challenged.  My newest character is a Tauren druid named Shoushemo.  (yes, yes, I realise it's three words stuffed into one)  I may take engineering and enchanting as my trade skills to insure the slowest path possible.  That and the fact that I only play a few hours per week. 

Damn, I'm clever!

[Rasix]

I'm glad that I'm at a point where I can just ignore it all.  Guildies send me invites to go pvp and I just tell them I'm not going to engage in that horse crap.  Still trying to get my rogue to 60 has been occupying my time and the places where I quest or grind (if I run out of quests) is sufficiently far away from all of the cacophonus people farming.

There's been a slew of quittings on our server.  None within our guild as we're still very primarily PvE oriented and we've just cleared a bunch of major hurdles (none of which I was involved with!).  Lucifron was taken down (fff, I had the time to go and was too wiped after car shopping for hours in HELL (Molten Core)) and Onyxia was taken to 49% on our first major attempt with less than 30 people (hooray for migraines, god, 5 minutes before we walk in I feel like I'm going to hurl while my head tries to kill itself).

Putting this system out without battlegrounds in place is one of the worst MMORPG decisions since someone gave the green light to the Anarchy Online 12.6 patch.  It in no way or shape can concievably hold people over until a next major content push without pissing a ton of people off to the point of cancelling.   Whoever thought this was a good idea needs to be dipped in honey and thrown on an ant pile.

[MrHat]

Putting this system out without battlegrounds in place is one of the worst MMORPG decisions since someone gave the green light to the Anarchy Online 12.6 patch.  It in no way or shape can concievably hold people over until a next major content push without pissing a ton of people off to the point of cancelling.   Whoever thought this was a good idea needs to be dipped in honey and thrown on an ant pile.

hehe, top this:

'Test of Honor' Contest - Play to Win an nVidia® 6800 Graphics Card! - Ordinn on 4/25/05
To celebrate the launch of the Honor System, Blizzard is giving away top-of-line nVidia 6800 series graphics cards and other prizes to lucky participants in player-versus-player combat. Here are the details:

HOW IT WORKS:

      Everyone that participates in player-versus-player combat from the time it is patched into the game until the contest ends on May 24th will have a chance to win prizes ranging from nVidia graphics cards to free WoW gametime. The higher your ranking in the Honor System on May 24th, the better your chances of winning - but anyone that participates has an opportunity to win something. For every rank you advance in the Honor System during the contest, you will receive 100 'virtual tickets' that are each a chance to win.

THE PRIZES:

    * 100 First Prizes: 6800 series hi-end nVidia Graphics card and a Kingston 256k Datastick
    * 300 Second Prizes: One free month of World of Warcraft gametime

Also, the top player for each faction (Horde and Alliance) on each server according to the honor system rankings on May 24th will receive a custom in-game Tabard proclaiming their prowess. Click here for full details!

[WayAbvPar]

The higher your ranking in the Honor System on May 24th, the better your chances of winning - but anyone that participates has an opportunity to win something.

Dear Sweet Jeebus. Between this crap and Smedley's SOEbay announcement, I weep for the non-catass. Again.

[Margalis]

You kill a lvl 60 at lvl 60, rank 1 : 166 points
You kill a lvl 48 at lvl 60, rank 1 : 20 points

Killing higher Honor Ranks also net more CPs, so in reality the disparancy between those two will be even bigger. As a conclusion (as I posted earlier) specifically going after low greens is simply counterproductive.

You have to factor in a couple things. How long does it take (including recovery time) to kill a level 60 vs. a level 48? What are the chances of dying to a level 60 vs. a level 48? How long does it take to find level 48 targets vs. level 60 targets? etc. It may not be counter-productive at all.

About EQ2 and figuring out what players will abuse: I didn't state it by I meant more PvP, although the "how will people abuse it?" question is applicable to everything. Does EQ2 even have PvP? I know very little about EQ2.

[Sobelius]

Single worst aspect of current implementation, IMHO -- no immunity upon zoning/log in.

Best aspect -- it's actually possible to take down someone of a higher level.

Overall though I strongly agree that they should not have bothered with honor system until the Battlegrounds were ready. I don't agree that Battlegrounds are the only place HK/CP should be awarded, but the reward in Battlegrounds should be significantly higher so that they become the place that draws in people for PvP.

Guild Wars already operates this way -- limiting PvP to specific arenas.

[Trippy]

HOW IT WORKS:

      Everyone that participates in player-versus-player combat from the time it is patched into the game until the contest ends on May 24th will have a chance to win prizes ranging from nVidia graphics cards to free WoW gametime. The higher your ranking in the Honor System on May 24th, the better your chances of winning - but anyone that participates has an opportunity to win something. For every rank you advance in the Honor System during the contest, you will receive 100 'virtual tickets' that are each a chance to win.

There was an error on the front page (which they've now fixed) -- the number of tickets you get varies as you climb the ranks:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/contests/05-04-19-honorsystem/

[jpark]

About EQ2 and figuring out what players will abuse: I didn't state it by I meant more PvP, although the "how will people abuse it?" question is applicable to everything. Does EQ2 even have PvP? I know very little about EQ2.

No pvp in EQ2 currently - but I gather from the board it is planned.  

That should be quite funny - I think most of would agree that Blizzard is good at balancing - to the extent anyone can be - and if you ever pvped (dueled) in EQ - the class disparities were quite dramatic.  SOE has no experience in this area really.  

[Strazos]

It was nigh impossible to duel as a rogue last time I was playing (2 years ago? Around the time of GoD).

The abilities in EQ-type games are geared to be used against mobs with 20,000 or so HP, not a 6k hp rogue.

All the bugs associated with how rogue stealth worked didn't help me much either.

[Sky]

Being the smart cookie I am, I have avoided the frustration by rolling a new character who will level very slowly.  Hopefully slowly enough so I can avoid dealing with it until they come up with something that doesn't cause huge masses of players to become honourably challenged.

You mean there are masses of players who aren't honor-challenged?

I think most of would agree that Blizzard is good at balancing

I'll agree with that when I get my racial invisibility.

[El Gallo]

Don't really care either way.  I mostly PvE and /duel.  It's nice to know that there are a couple places I can go PvP when I feel like it, and have been a fun diversion for me.  The big battles are lagalicious, but it doesn't bother me.  It will also probably calm down after a couple weeks.  It's fun to go defend some out of the way village that is under attack, or go beat up guards in some podunk alliance town until a couple alliance come to fight me off.  If I was a PvP-acheiver type who wanted rank for loot, I would probably not like it at all though.  I am more looking forward to battlefields.

[Strazos]

I think most of would agree that Blizzard is good at balancing

I'll agree with that when I get my racial invisibility.

And I will also agree when you can no longer be feared, etc. 100% of the time by someone 15+ levels lower than you.

[Sky]

I think most of would agree that Blizzard is good at balancing

I'll agree with that when I get my racial invisibility.

And I will also agree when you can no longer be feared, etc. 100% of the time by someone 15+ levels lower than you.

Exactly.

[schild]

I think most of would agree that Blizzard is good at balancing

I'll agree with that when I get my racial invisibility.

And I will also agree when you can no longer be feared, etc. 100% of the time by someone 15+ levels lower than you.

Exactly.

SC Zerg Rushes. WoW Uber Templates. WCIII's Swordsinger orc dude who can raid at the beginning of any skirmish in warcraft III. Diablo II is still broken and they're still issuing patches that address balance somewhere in them.

I think most would agree that Blizzard has a terrible fucking history of imbalances and sucks at it more than just about any other company.

[Jayce]

SC Zerg Rushes. WoW Uber Templates. WCIII's Swordsinger orc dude who can raid at the beginning of any skirmish in warcraft III. Diablo II is still broken and they're still issuing patches that address balance somewhere in them.

I think most would agree that Blizzard has a terrible fucking history of imbalances and sucks at it more than just about any other company.

UO Tank mages. 
AC drain mages, Og mages and extreme templates.
SWG combat medics and riflemen.
Age of Kings longbows.
DAOC minstrels (early)
DOAC Rangers (early)
(etc)

The problem is endemic to the genre.  Not only don't I agree, I think Blizzard has a much better track record than nearly any company out there.  The fact that there is no OMG UBAR EVERYONE HAS ONE template in WoW proves it.

[schild]

I wasn't talking about other companies. But on that note, most of the other ones you talked about have made a limited number of games compared to Blizzards 10+ year history of making games. Games that are plagued with imbalance.

Give WoW time. The only reason it seems balanced is because it's new. I trust Cryptic and Arena.net to do a better job with balance than Blizzard. But that's neither here nor there.

[El Gallo]

WoW was not designed from the ground up as a PvP game.  Anyone expecting PvP, especially one on one or zerg PvP, to be well balanced should be sterilized to prevent the stupid from reaching the next generation.

[MrHat]

I have no idea what any of you are talking about.

At the high end, WoW is one of the most balanced games I've ever played.

[Abel]

I think most would agree that Blizzard has a terrible fucking history of imbalances and sucks at it more than just about any other company.

I don't know where you get that from. WoW is about the most balanced MMORPG I ever played and I played most of them (bar SW:G/EQ).
Most "WoW uber templates" you speak of are actually hotly contested and percieved overpowered classes differ from person to person, which actually indicates things are pretty balanced  ...

[Jayce]

My daily honor system whine story:

I land in Gadgetzan.  Yeah, I know, dumb idea but I'm tired of running the entire length of Thousand Needles after landing at Thalanaar.  It takes less time, even if I get ganked.

Well, I land.  No one around.  I mount.  I start to move, and freeze.  This of course means it's loading lots of textures.

By the time I unfreeze, I'm about 5 yards away.  I'm surrounded by Horde.  I have lost 2000 hp already.  I die.

Looking back in the logs, I can't find where the same person hit me twice.  Each person did around 50-100 damage.  For the math-challenged, that's somewhere between 20-40 people smacking me.  Now THAT'S exciting PvP!!

The good thing is that I died far enough out that I could res at my farthest range and get away on only my second try.

[Xanthippe]

The thing that surprises me the most about Blizzard regarding the honor system is that they have failed to learn from others' mistakes.  They are squandering much good will by ignoring the players' complaints.

I've quit playing my 48 hunter for now(pvp server).  Being ganked continuously is not fun.  I feel like I'm back on Mordred in DAOC.

The honor system is regressive and rewards, nay, it _encourages_ ganking.  Ganking is not good fun pvp.

Guild Wars has my interest again.

[Sky]

Another fun twist to the imbalance issues: organized guilds.

Now...I'm no pvp newb, and I know the power of an organized force (and assume teamspeak for at least a portion of them, if not all). The Keepers of the Keg were in force, maybe 30 or so, in the Ruins of Lorderaen (sp). The horde could simply not muster an organized force in the hour or so I was playing my alt. Luckily, they didn't do much to impact my gameplay as a lowbie, but dipshits kept flagging and instantly dying, letting the guild sit and rack up HKs.

Great system. So far I've had exactly one enjoyable session (in arathi, and discounting the long graveyard run, even then) and several crappy sessions due to the new system. Balance swings in favor of crappy in my personal experience.

Also, spending 5 hours in pvp over the last week and not getting any rank at all, despite several solo kills of lvl 60 paladins? Yeah, no reason for me to continue with pvp in wow, it's for hardcore only. And soon for hardcore guilds only. Good luck with that. SO GLAD I didn't pick a pvp server. I'd already have cancelled. Luckily I can, for the most part, ignore this 'exciting new gameplay addition' completely.

[Paelos]

BTW I ran some of the numbers on the chances of people winning one of those 100 video cards Blizzard is giving away. I figured if roughly half the subscriber population tries to participate (750,000 gamers), and they achieve an weighted average of 139.8 entries per person, here are the results per rank:

Rank 1 ~ 1/104,850
Rank 2 ~ 1/24,400
Rank 3 ~ 1/9,700
Rank 4 ~ 1/4,900
Rank 5 ~ 1/3,250
Rank 6 ~ 1/2,400
Rank 7 ~ 1/1,950
Rank 8 ~ 1/1,625
Rank 9 ~ 1/1,400
Rank 10 ~ 1/1,200
Rank 11 ~ 1/1,100
Rank 12 ~ 1/975
Rank 13 ~ 1/800
Rank 14 ~ 1/750

And since you can rack up points on 5 characters. The Uberest of Catasses who would max lvl 14 on all 5 would have ~ 1/150 shot at one of those cards. Granted it's a lot of fuzzy math, but if you don't plan on making officer, you might as well be buying lottery tickets.

[Yegolev]

Being that I am on a Roleplaying server,

Personally I feel that this system works wonderfully on my PvP server.  I don't think it was such an awesome idea on a RP server.  I might be accustomed to being assassinated in Hillsbrad, but that's the sort of thing you expect when you pick a PvP server.  I would not expect such ganking on a RP server, even if NPC murder was expected.  At any rate, I am excluded from complaining about PvP since I play on a PvP server.

[Jayce]

At any rate, I am excluded from complaining about PvP since I play on a PvP server.

That's a noble way of looking at it, but looked at another way, 30 on 1 being the norm isn't exactly my idea of PvP.  I don't mind being ganked (happened about 10 times in Un'Goro last night, but I'm not complaining for the following reason) so long as there is a prayer of actually doing damage to someone or even *gasp* winning.

The picture looks WAAAY different from a level 51 perspective.  I got 1-50 at a rate of about a level every two days on average.  I have spent the whole time since this patch went in trying to finish half of 51.

[Signe]

It seems there have been enough complaints that Blizz is considering allowing people on PvP servers to move to normal servers.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?fn=wow-general&t=2842212&p=1&tmp=1#post2842212

[Sky]

That's stubbornness on a grand scale. Rather than admit the "Honor" system sucks, they allow their pvp servers to bleed players. Shtoopit.

[HaemishM]

Wasn't it inevitable that the PVP servers start bleeding people eventually? Even with the restrictions, as soon as you start to give folks incentive and reward for participating/winning in PVP, more will happen. Which means more folks will get ganked and decide they really don't like that form of PVP and move on to regular servers.

[El Gallo]

Why don't they just tighten the level range restriction for honorable kills at the top end on the PvP servers.