Killerspiele

[IainC]

As you may know from BrokenToys or GamePolitics, there is a new move to ban not just the distribution and sale of violent video games in Germany but also their development. As someone who's job is very much linked with this, I've also weighed in.

[UnSub]

E3 makes me think that the video games industry hasn't exactly helped its case in this area: two big franchises (at least) have led with player-activated decapitation and torture as a key game mechanic.

Your blogpost conveniently hand waves any responsibility away from the games industry IainC for actually considering what it releases.

Also: this thread. The politics forum. I predict a meeting.

[Tebonas]

Germany is retarded. The German developers might just come to Austria, just as the german players buy their forbidden games by ordering them here.  

[IainC]

E3 makes me think that the video games industry hasn't exactly helped its case in this area: two big franchises (at least) have led with player-activated decapitation and torture as a key game mechanic.

Your blogpost conveniently hand waves any responsibility away from the games industry IainC for actually considering what it releases.

Also: this thread. The politics forum. I predict a meeting.

I was torn about whether to put it in politics or not but I figured there are a fair number of peopel here who don't read the politics board on principle but might want to weigh into a debate about video games and politics.

I'm not handwaving about the games industry at all (if by that you mean developers and publishers rather than retail). I think that games developers - like authors, movie directors, songwriters, interpretative dance choreographers etc) should be free to make games within the same broad guidelines as exist for other entertainment choices. We have, as I pointed out, several bodies that rate games and help consumers to make an informed choice about the product they are looking at. This is something that needs to be emphasised more to parents and other low-information consumers. Few parents would buy a graphic movie for their kids so there should be additional effort made to educate them that the same criteria apply to games and that they should take some responsibility for the entertainment choices of their children.

I'm not aware of the industry specifically targeting games at inappropriate audiences. If that does happen then clearly that needs to change tuo, but that's a large step away from the argument that they shouldn't make the game in the first place.

[NiX]

I'd agree, but unfortunately the ESRB is useless. Leading up to GTA: San Andreas, EB Games was on a crusade to ensure that every person who walked in the store saw something describing the ESRB rating system. Yet we still had parents blindly trying to buy GTA for their 8-12 y/o child without even thinking twice. Even so, after describing in detail what the game was like, half the parents didn't care and bought the game anyway.

The ESRB needs to push itself a bit more, aren't you guys paying them to do just that? Shelf talkers / posters in an EB are not going to do it if you want a valid argument about there being a rating system in place.

[stu]

This entire episode would be ridiculous if it weren't actually happening.

Here's an Economist article on the behavioral effects of video games from the 28th of May. Nothing groundbreaking, but there it is.

http://www.economist.com/science/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13726738

[schild]

All of those studies seem like they have a chicken/egg problem. Also, I think it's more bothersome that not a single violent game was listed in the entire article. Unless scientists define violent as something entirely different than I do. But anyway, yea, chicken/egg. I'm not sure what good they are unless we know which people were violent/pro-social going into the studies. I'm not going to call it poorly written, because it's not. It's The Economist. It's well-written due to standards. But the studies aren't helping.

As for Germany: They're being hilariously stupid on this issue and they're running the risk of becoming a cartoon parody of themselves doing crap like this - "protecting" their citizens even moreso than China. Shameful. As for the gaming companies? Eh, they'll just move. Would suck, and would cost money, and it may result in some shuttered doors, but it's not the end of the world.

[Murgos]

The obvious answer to these kind of knee jerk fear-mongering arguments is to look at what really happens in a multiplayer game.

Just join a pick-up game of TF-2 and watch the Korean guy, the German guy, the french guy and etc... all work together against a similarly mismatched group of people working together.

Sure, everyone gets a good chuckle when the spy gets BBQ'd by the pyro or whatever but it's still a bunch of people from all over the world building bonds while working and communicating with each other.

[schild]

The obvious answer to these kind of knee jerk fear-mongering arguments is to look at what really happens in a multiplayer game.

Just join a pick-up game of TF-2 and watch the Korean guy, the German guy, the french guy and etc... all work together against a similarly mismatched group of people working together.

Sure, everyone gets a good chuckle when the spy gets BBQ'd by the pyro or whatever but it's still a bunch of people from all over the world building bonds while working and communicating with each other.

I assume you've never played Halo on XBL. Have you ever played anything on XBL? TF2 has a notably tolerable community compared to every community I've ever encountered on XBL. Ever.

[IainC]

The obvious answer to these kind of knee jerk fear-mongering arguments is to look at what really happens in a multiplayer game.

Just join a pick-up game of TF-2 and watch the Korean guy, the German guy, the french guy and etc... all work together against a similarly mismatched group of people working together.

Sure, everyone gets a good chuckle when the spy gets BBQ'd by the pyro or whatever but it's still a bunch of people from all over the world building bonds while working and communicating with each other.

I assume you've never played Halo on XBL. Have you ever played anything on XBL? TF2 has a notably tolerable community compared to every community I've ever encountered on XBL. Ever.

If I wanted to convince people that video gamers weren't all sociopathic nutjobs, the very last thing I'd do is introduce them to the average online gaming community.

[Mavor]

TF2 and similar games have no real motivation (besides competitive gaming, which many people decline to practice) for players to establish anything more then temporary bonds of cooperation... and even then half the time no-one actually cares what the rest of their team is doing. I believe that games that encourage people to create somewhat longer lasting relationships with other players benefit from increased playtime and more enjoyment.

WoW is one of the (or is it?) the most successful games in the entire history of gaming, if we look at it from a cash flow/month. The entire game revolves around forming relationships with other people to succeed at various goals. And don't tell me there are many players who just play by themselves and do solo quests all day long... those people who don't care about the multiplayer AT ALL will not start with wow in the first place.

[schild]

If I wanted to convince people that video gamers weren't all sociopathic nutjobs, the very last thing I'd do is introduce them to the average online gaming community.

You know, Demon's Souls is one of he most violent games I've ever played (all things considered, and if we're not just taking poorly executed excessive gore as the epitome of violence). Rather, an environment which is completely hazardous and very not nice to your character, with NPCs that make fun of your inability to stay alive and an entire game working against you.

And yet, when people show in multiplayer, it's customary to bow before fighting. And if you bow for a red phantom - i.e. one that is trying to kill you - they'll bow back. And it's respectful to do it if they bow first as well. Some don't, but most with a japanese name, will. Just saying, depends on the game. Though, you're probably right, if the game had voice chat, they'd probably call me a "dirty jew" while bowing.

[Murgos]

Well, fuck finding the forest, there's a god-damned tree in my way.

[Lantyssa]

I read the post title and thought this was going to be a German version of GTA. 

[schild]

I read the post title and thought this was going to be a German version of GTA.  

I thought it was going to be a german game called Killer Game. Which was just spiffy. I thought, for one brief moment, that Germany had gotten the fuck over themselves - and then - here we are, same as it ever was.

[Azazel]

E3 makes me think that the video games industry hasn't exactly helped its case in this area: two big franchises (at least) have led with player-activated decapitation and torture as a key game mechanic.

Which ones? I've really not seen any of the videos.

[Fabricated]

Pretty much an extension of Germany's wide-eyed terror at anything they think may turn their country into the comic villain it was circa WWII.

[Azazel]

You know, Demon's Souls is one of he most violent games I've ever played (all things considered, and if we're not just taking poorly executed excessive gore as the epitome of violence). Rather, an environment which is completely hazardous and very not nice to your character, with NPCs that make fun of your inability to stay alive and an entire game working against you.

And yet, when people show in multiplayer, it's customary to bow before fighting. And if you bow for a red phantom - i.e. one that is trying to kill you - they'll bow back. And it's respectful to do it if they bow first as well. Some don't, but most with a japanese name, will. Just saying, depends on the game. Though, you're probably right, if the game had voice chat, they'd probably call me a "dirty jew" while bowing.

This will change when the game is released in the US. You're no doubt finding a Japanese cultural norm in the game. The average retard on PSN isn't going to do that. Just saying.


As for online gaming communities. The old PA comic illustrates it well. You do however have a better chance of the MP interaction not looking immensely retarded and sociopathic if you go into a coop game of something, (WoW, COD5, SR2, etc) than if you go into a scenario where the players must compete directly and can also communicate. (like most any FPS).

[schild]

This will change when the game is released in the US. You're no doubt finding a Japanese cultural norm in the game. The average retard on PSN isn't going to do that. Just saying.

Demon's Souls may remain the odd man out. It's going to be a worldwide server and half the players will be Americans who already bow in coop/pvp.

Or at least, on this one occasion, I'm hoping so.

Otherwise, yes, obviously. It's one of the reasons I used it as an exception to the rule.

[Jeff Kelly]

Our current administration consists largely of old fucks and wusses, wusses who are old fucks and vice versa.

We have a Ministry for Family Affairs, Senior Citizens, Women and Youth. It's secretary Ursula von der Leyen has seven kids that are cared for by a staff of nannies that she can afford because both her and her husband make  alot of money (her husband is an University professor). They don't own a TV or have internet but are responsible for all policies concerning family matters, media and the internet. Her policies are usually based on 'We as a double income upper class family were able to manage it and so can you' and the utter cluelessness that comes with having stopped keeping in touch with modern technology somewhere in the seventies.

Our secretary of law usually get's her ass handed to her by the Bundesverfassungsgericht or the Bundesgerichtshof (our constitutional court and supreme court respectively) because she doesn't seem to be able to write laws that don't violate our constitution or contradict 100 years of law practice.

Our secretary of health is currently killing our healthcare services by being in bed with the drug and medical companies. She single-handedly managed to drive hundreds of thousand of doctors out of business, let the rates for universal health care rise from 12% to 15% of gross income by 'reqorking' the taxation and compensation system, all this while providing a service that is a lot worse than before (and now borders on british 'You won't get an appendectomy because you're NHS' standards).

Our secretary of the interior is delusional and paranoid, sees terrorists on every corner and has no problem abolishing democratic control and institutions 'for the greater good'. He sold a german citizen to guantanamo because it was believed that he might be a terrorist (which he wasn't) his usual argument is that 'you don't need to be afraid if you have nothing to hide' and he is currently on a crusade to turn 'innocent until proven guilty' into the opposite.

All of them have never in their life used computers, computer games or the internet and they currently cater to their largest voter base, people over the age of 55. Oh and have I mentioned that this year is general election year which drives up the crazy tenfold?

[Azazel]

Demon's Souls may remain the odd man out. It's going to be a worldwide server and half the players will be Americans who already bow in coop/pvp.

You really think it's already done half of it's potential US business from imports?

I'd think half of it's f13-US business perhaps, but not overall by a long shot.

[schild]

You really think it's already done half of it's potential US business from imports?

I'd think half of it's f13-US business perhaps, but not overall by a long shot.

No, the vast majority of those people will double dip on it and the traditions from the asian release will carry over to the American release. Or will at least periodically remain. It may take them a week or two to permeate, unless Asia just wholesale quits playing the game.

[UnSub]

E3 makes me think that the video games industry hasn't exactly helped its case in this area: two big franchises (at least) have led with player-activated decapitation and torture as a key game mechanic.

Which ones? I've really not seen any of the videos.

Splinter Cell: Conviction - Why yes, torture is an effective way of getting accurate and timely information out of people.

God of War 3 - Tear out a monster's eyeball, then rip off someone else's head so you can use it as a flashlight.

I'm not surprised or shocked by these videos and I've probably played games that have done far worse. But it's also why I called IainC's post handwaving - the industry goes, "We're respectable and we rate things so that concerned parents can choose" but then release titles - major, mainstream titles - that are guaranteed to court controversy (movies do it too, but video games get it in the neck more because for every "God of War" / "Terminator: Salvation" we don't get a "Slumdog Millionaire" for video games). Plus saying, "The government should really help those people who might be unnaturally attracted and effected by this violence" is a little like a crack dealer who wants a rehab centre set up on the government dime just down the road from him. One step might be admitting that video games could be part of the problem and not pandering to juvenile power fantasies (or, if you want to be nice about it, trying to release something with a vague hint of artistic credibility).

There's the assumption that it is easy to spot people who might need help, or might be dangerous, or even that they want to be helped. Plenty of cases exist where spotting exactly who is going to do what hasn't happened, even among close friends / family. And I'm not even talking about the crazy stuff - talk to any family who finds out one (or more) of their members has a drug addiction or has committed suicide. The warning signs aren't always obvious until after the event.

Also, I'm not saying Germany is right in its approach. But the gaming industry can't keep throwing its hands up and go "WHA HAPPENED?" every time someone raises issues with the violence in games.



Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to play Gears of War. 

[Yegolev]

I'm aware of a few games with artistic credibility.  Not that I'm on board with censorship or even stewardship, or whatever it might be called, but the justification exists.  The main difference, I think, is that the video game equivalent of Slumdog Millionaire was a poor seller.  Then again, the game industry version of the Motion Picture Academy doesn't have a annual gala during which it fellates itself in order to have us buy shitty entertainment that does not contain explosions.

I think if someone could get Uwe Boll to make a video game, this problem would go away.

[Tebonas]

The problem is not that these games are bad and shouldn't be sold to children. The problem is that the german approach is to ban them and it isn't even allowed to mention them. Yes, a German podcast is not allowed to mention the name Doom if it talks about games that influenced the genre. Because Doom was banned back in the day and that would be advertisment.

[Yegolev]

You seem to think Germans take things too far.

[Prospero]

This will change when the game is released in the US. You're no doubt finding a Japanese cultural norm in the game. The average retard on PSN isn't going to do that. Just saying.

Demon's Souls may remain the odd man out. It's going to be a worldwide server and half the players will be Americans who already bow in coop/pvp.

Or at least, on this one occasion, I'm hoping so.

Otherwise, yes, obviously. It's one of the reasons I used it as an exception to the rule.

The Jedi Knight multiplayer community had this as well. There was a whole bow/wave lightsaber around ceremony that everyone did before dueling. And that was in America. I guess it has something to do with swords.

[Rishathra]

The Jedi Knight multiplayer community had this as well. There was a whole bow/wave lightsaber around ceremony that everyone did before dueling. And that was in America. I guess it has something to do with swords.

Ahhh, memories.  I also remember that when two players engaged in a duel like that in a multiplayer match, other players would leave them alone and not try to shoot the opposing team's duelist in the back.

[Yegolev]

Lightsabers are an elegant weapon from a more civilized time.

[Cyrrex]

Lightsabers are an elegant weapon from a more civilized time.

I would also add that they are neither as random or clumsy as, say, a blaster.

[Yegolev]

Although our avatars may disagree.

[Cyrrex]

I said nothing about sexy and, um, reptilian.

[Yegolev]

I'd like to point out that dinosaurs are not reptiles.

[Cyrrex]

Close enough, lizard man.  I ran out of adjectives at the last possible moment.