f13.net

Azzrap0r!!1! (http://www.shoutwire.com/comments/8726/WOW_an_Online_RPG_Funeral_Gets_Ambushed_Without_Mercy)

The toughguy background music in the video really illustrated how sad those people are.

So they had a funeral in game for someone who died in real life on a PvP server? Whoops. Gotta say, I'm not big on bad taste, but that's like holding a funeral in the middle of Baghdad or Fallujah. Why would someone do that?

Edit: Oh, and this whole event will go down as legendary in WoW circles. Some will call it terrible taste. Some will call it the best thing ever. But what they did just there, illustrated that it's STILL A GAME. Doesn't matter if you're holding fucking Sunday mass, you're a bunch of targets gathered in one place Not Ready for Battle.

The use of Where Eagles Dare was actually pretty well placed. And that attack was astounding in it's efficiency.

Thought it fit here.

Pretty fucked up.  I don't care if it was a PvP server- some shit you just don't do because you're a halfway decent human being.

To which I respond:

Why is roleplaying so gay? (http://www.f13.net/index2.php?subaction=showfull&id=1144399704&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&) Sorry for making you click through twice.

You bastard.

I have no idea what else to say.

Hey, at least I'm not trolling when I stir shit up. :P

This is fairly old. It happened in January or February I think - I remember reading the WoW board thread - and the (overproduced) video was uploaded to Google on March 7.

Internet.

It's an asshole thing to do, but within the rules of the server. The video was amusing, but they're just some WoW guild. Who gives a shit about them, really?

Video is wayyyyyyyyyyyy too long for that little content.  They also should have started with the funeral and then switched to the raiders. 

As for empathy, I feel bad for them if they were just stupid.  However, I think it's more likely that they were asking for it to the point of actually wanting it to happen.  They could've had this in any number of safe zones.  They posted a **HEY EVERYBODY THERE WILL BE A BUNCH OF UNARMED TARGETS IN THIS PARTICULAR CONTESTED ZONE AT THIS EXACT TIME BUT PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T PK US THX** message on the server forum.  I have trouble believing they were that stupid and suspect that they were looking for something to get righteously indignant about.

Ahh reminds me of weddings or other player gatherings in UO. When you don't have rice to throw, you're forced to improvise with purple potions and ebolts.

The people who were participating in the funeral were just plain stupid. If you announce to people that you are having an in-game event and it would be really swell if the other team left you alone, you can just guarantee someone is going to try to grief them.

When Planetside first started, it had 4 US servers. The populations on the servers weren't high enough so they eventually combined the 2 smaller servers into the 2 larger ones. Konreid was getting merged into the Emerald server. As a last hurrah, people on Konreid declared a general cease-fire and congregated on that tiny island off the south coast of Cyssor. You had people from all 3 sides standing around chatting, trading vehicles and equipment, taking screenshots of yourself with people you've only seen through a rifle's scope. People were having a great time until a fleet of Liberators (bomber aircraft) flew over the island and took out everything. The Enclave, a TR outfit of good players who were also griefers and jackasses, had about 200 kills in about 10 seconds. All the people on the island were pissed off, but the Enclave just said that they saw the enemy there and they killed them. Since the TR soldiers on the island weren't firing, they said they were traitors and deserved to die.

It does seem like, if they really wanted to pay their respects, they should've done so in Stormwind or Orgrimaar.

Perfect solution. 

I laughed my ass off when the Scatman song came on.  Was kind of perfect.  TBH I relate more to the people who had the funeral than the people who crashed it, but this was really funny.  How basic is it to assume that an event like this is going to get crashed?  On a pvp server...in contested territory...lol

Assholes will take every oppurtunity given to them to be assholes. Would you expect any less?

I don't see these people as assholes. I wouldn't even consider this griefing. This was a highly organized, highly efficient attack on some morons. Who, for a lack of better words, "had it coming."

I can't really blame them for taking advantage, but these are the same chucklefucks who gank lowbies in STV and camp for no reason.

I laughed. It was actually pretty funny. What's probably sadder is that this dude had more people at his online funeral than his real life one.

I don't see it as amusing nor shocking nor surprising nor even particularly interesting.

Agree with Llava (why didn't they do it in SW or Org - unless there were people attending from both factions), and Strazos (same bozos who gank in STV).

Maybe I just need some Pamprin to see the humor in it, but seems like mostly a big yawn that people pvp on pvp servers, and don't respect other people.  Yeah, I already know that.

I think it would be funner/funnier if it had been a wedding.

Those people logged in the account of the dead girls character and had her laying down by the water.  How fucking sick is that shit???  I think the funeral crashers should get  a medal for putting a stop to that.

When the "dead" player turns out to be alive and well, the funeral party will be doubly used.  :evil:

A well-respected player my guild died IRL, and I think we had more virtual attendees than he had real ones. We had the service in Orgrimmar, cuz what did the Alliance care? Plus we got more ppl walking by and finding out about it.

Player funerals have happend a number of times in WWIIOL.  There are no safe areas in that game, and even with players of both sides attending, I have never heard of anything close to this happening.

You don't drive by a funeral and honk your horn in RL because "You can" and "They deserve it".

On the other hand. Go to a frigin non-pvp server and be smart. This is the internet and the land of no accountability.

Ah, analogies.  If people in real life had the ability to automagically hold events with a 100% probability of absolutely no disruption (see: holding in safe zones/cities) people would be a lot less sympathetic to the people who "OMG HAD THEIR EVENT DISRUPTED".

Don't get me wrong- it was dumb of them to not have this in a safe zone.

But I still think the disruptors are dicks.

This is exactly what this:
was about.

These people are the reason we can't have nice things.  I'm certainly not patting them on the back.  The people having the funeral were foolishly naive for expecting any better of their fellow gamers- but that doesn't excuse those guys for NOT having the class to let it be.  Any number of real-world analogies will showcase this.

I do consider it griefing, and I do consider it a dick move on their part.  But it's not shocking, really.  If anything, it just reaffirms what we already know about players of these type:  that there is nothing too sacred, nothing too low.  And we just have to live with the fact that those people represent a good portion of our hobby's fanbase.

Weddings in UO were just as bad; you spend 2 hours getting lined up perfectly all facing one direction, getting ready for the prescession, then word gets out and it all goes to hell... I was at one of the first ones and suddenly you see a vortex out of the corner of the screen... people run in, dump fire walls, and it pretty much broke into a general melee from there.. it was maybe 10 people with 30-40 in the 'wedding party'. I got 3, died, and by time I came back they were long gone. One of the bodies had a rune on it, though - One of your standard Red Vendor towns; We made them pay by camping that thing day and night, killing them over and over again.

You want player run content? There it is.

I wish I had my old screenshots. Stupid hard drive dying.

I think it is hilarious and I am glad it is pissing off so many.  Why should anybody show restraint when the game does not give them any compelling reason for doing so?

I'll refer you to the multi-page sub-thread (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=6346.2905) involving Tele instead of repeating ten pages of posts.  Just because people can be sociopathic asses with no reprecussions does not mean they should be.

Sure they do.  Just hold every wedding in a bank vault, and you're pretty darn safe from disruptions.

That means it's cool to pelt people with tomatoes if they hold outdoor weddings where you can get to them, rite?

The dread lord days are over.  They chose WoW, they chose a PVP server, and they chose a contested zone.  If they didn't want to get azzraped, they had a funny way of showing it.  Fuck 'em.

MMOG's don't hold up to any real world analogies because real world societies are able to impose real world consequences on people displaying unacceptable behavior. MMOG's are simply quasi-societies lacking any form of real consequence, so people have carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want. That's why crap like this is funny to me, because sometimes people seem to gloss over that fact when they hold in-game events. It's a big reason why I'd like to play a game that enforces real penalties to players being idiots. Real money fines would be a neat idea I think. Want to be a dickhead and keep playing the game? It's gonna cost you big.

If you want to use real world analogies it would be like busting up a funeral were they where using the corpse as a marionette and making it perform.

(http://forums.f13.net/index.php?action=dlattach;id=1570;type=avatar)

omg boobs

Boobs?  WHERE?!?!

Those give me a backache just looking at them.

Meh, not sure what you're basing this on except that the guy (or girl?) played a MMORPG. You know, like you do, dickhead. Oh, they play(ed) the same one you do (dickhead.)

Anyway, as I was saying over in one of the Teletroll's threads, the anonymity and lack of consequences of the internet will always allow immature jerkoffs to be such without the restraint that they'd show in real life due to the likelyhood of a rabid Haemish punching them in the face. I mean, look at the way that the "devout" Flanders here acts on the internet ^^^ and even I have to be a less abrasive cunt in real life if I want to keep my career path happening. Essentially, society and civilisation keep us all repressed in our real-life actions. Sure we might smash a keyboard or mouse of gamepad now and then in the privacy of our own homem, but how often do we take a baseball bat to someone's car/windows/torso?

Remove consequences and that repression is gone. People who would be fulltime jackasses if only society would let them (without such behaviour ending up with them being big bubba's woman.) will do shit like this. See New Orleans for some detail. The sooner morons like that funeral party realise this and stop holding their publiclly-advertised wedding and funerals in PVP-contested zones the better. Yeah, it does kinda seem like they, or at least whoever picked their venue, used this person's funeral as an opportinuty to bait the griefers and become righteously indignant..

[1998]You think?[/1998]

Never in the history of mankind has there been an easier way to identify the sociopaths amidst us. Now, if only that information could be used somehow. Perhaps 1 real strike + 2 virtual strikes and you're out.

I say we round 'em up and shoot 'em.

Minority Report was for pussies.

I get to use this again!

(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/GrimDysart/spath.jpg)

I really wish that killing another player who is grey to you, unprovoked, would be a DK. That might stop the dumbass gankers sometimes.

I really wish I could punch some of these people in the face.

"ZOMG get the 43 cow war! Lemme hit him with asskandi. OMG gotta camp him too, he's a threat to my epic 60 toon."

Dumbasses.

What a very odd way to agree with exactly what I said in another post.

I really wish everyone who ever complains about being killed on a pvp server no matter the circumstances (as long as it falls within the rules) was forced to reroll on a pve server.  Im sorry but the only dumbass in that situation is the one thats bothered by it.

I also have a dream. I have a dream that, one day, online communities have no rules that limit the interaction of their members. I have a dream that instead, members are encouraged to make their own house rules. Ballet, poetry, improvised theatre, all those and more will be encouraged. And I have a dream, that little Johnny the Jackass will see Mary the Meek performing to a full audience and, unable to help himself, proceed to degrade, call foul and harm them in the worst ways imaginable. And Mary will cry, and her audience will cry, like the meek have always cried. But, friends, my dream does not end there.

Brothers and sisters, I have a dream that before Mary has a even a chance to consider retaliating, Johnny will be taken from his home with no fuss, no appeal, no-one noticing. I have a dream that Johnny will be whisked away to a secret location, and there he will be studied so that nothing he could have contributed in his miserable life will go to waste. And after Johnny has contributed all that he has to contribute, I have a dream that Johnny will cease to be a part of the genepool and the memepool.

And I have a dream, that sooner, rather than later, the meek shall not need to carry their keys or prove their identity ever again in all their living days on God's green Earth under heaven, Allah be praised.

This noob is scaring me.

What's to stop people from getting rogues to level 47, twinking them out with the best gear there is (including epic drops) and then just endlessly ganking, knowing full well that 60s dare not attack them (and yes, a 47 with epics, high-end blues and uber enchants > green geared 60)?

Level-based pvp is broken.


-- Z.

Yep, that dishonorable kills penalty was sure a bad idea. There sure would have been a lot of griefing by lowbies.

You nailed it right there.

That can't ever happen because of the "if the game lets me do it, I'm supposed to do it!" attitude.

If you don't set hard and fast rules, that crowd will immediately start ruining the fun for other people.  And then we have a problem.

Maybe not.  If it works right, then players with the above attitude can be punished by the other players to a greater extent than their griefing allows them to punish players.

It's like nobody here has ever played an MMO before.  It's 1997 all over again, and you're sure player justice will keep UO players in line.

 :roffle: :roffle: :roffle:

and just for good measure:  :dead_horse:

Emphasis mine. Obviously, if a 47 attacks a 60, that 60 is being provoked. In my system, the 47 would then be fair game.

Also, I don't care too much when I get ganked by a epiced 60 in STV or somewhere else. Sure, it's annoying as fuck. Sure, it's a bit irratating that I'm being ganked by someone who Obviously has nothing better to do with their character (or their lives for that matter). What gets me is when they CORPSE CAMP me.

Come the fuck. Great, you killed me, get on with your life....but no, they sit there and camp a lowbie. I see it all the time. And it's nonsense, and nothing else but concentrated griefing. FFS, they don't even get honor/HKs from doing it. They just do it "because they can."

Oh, and trying to throw that line at someone is a cop-out and complete bullshit. Sure, I Could butt in line IRL, or cut people off on the highway, or pull other nonsense...but I don't, because it's fucking stupid.

Though, I guess I will never understand, because I'm nto well aquainted with "teh stoopid."

(Yeah, I spend a lot of time evading 60s in STV. WTF are they doing there anyway?)

I wanted to properly illustrate the size of that "if".  It ain't worked so far, no matter how hard developers wished it would.

For one, policing is MUCH harder than griefing.  I think Lum pointed it out- the griefer can be anywhere and find a way to grief, while the policing player has to be in one specific spot, which is wherever the griefer is.

Players aren't given the tools to track one another down like that.

Finally, players will never be given such authority that they can inflict unavoidable, permanent, serious consequences on other players as effortlessly and as frequently as would be required to be a serious deterrent to real griefers.  Rightfully so.

(griefers, plural, is not in the spell checker)

I'd guess they're just killing time ganking lowbies while waiting for the rest of their raid to get to ZG.

In my experience "im being camped" translates into "im too stubborn to leave".  You can't be camped unless you choose to stick around, hell you can't even ganked unless you choose to be on a pvp server.  Pve servers have duels, arenas, and battlegrounds, the ONE AND ONLY difference between pve and pvp servers is that you can be ganked while you are out doing regular stuff.  Thats the only reason to roll on a pvp server, if you don't enjoy the idea that you are constantly in danger, that you can be killed at any time for any reason then theres simply no reason at all for you to be in a pvp server.  Asking to punish gankers is like jumping in front of a moving train and asking the driver to be thrown in jail for murder.

Except that ganking is different from PVP. Ganking means getting absolutely assraped not just while you are unprepared, but when you really have no, absolutely none, zero, zilch, the nil set, no ability or chance to win the fight. I play on PVP servers because I want a challenge from other players. Getting ganked is no challenge for the gankee or the ganker, it's frustration.

This is entering waaahbumlance territory. When you join a pvp server, you join with the ruleset it has, not with the ruleset you wish it did.  Getting ganked is completely in your control.

I agree, it is in my control.

That doesn't stop the developers from actually doing things that discourage stupid ganking, like the 60 ganking the level 1. Allowing it is just lazy, because it really doesn't have any place in a PVP game other than grief. And whaaaambulances run on the same principles when idiots claim that you can't put in a dishonor penalty because some mythological level 1's will "grief" level 60's by making the 60 attack the 1.

You can get that on a pve server with duels and bgs, expecting fair fights out in the open is just crazyness.

I'd be happy with half fair fights. Or even a sense of sportsmanship.

But sense it's entirely too much to expect people online to not be complete raging douchebags, I'd rather the game system punish them for douchebaggery, i.e. dishonorable kills.

Need I bring up blade spirit/fire field/evortex diving?

You of all people should understand that griefers will undertake quite a bit of effort to grief.  If there's a serious penalty for instigating attacks on grey players, there is a 1,000% chance that griefing assclowns will be running level 1's around in PvP battles hoping to get tagged by an AoE or someone who mistargets as they stroke their tiny griefer penis thinking about how they are messing up someone's main character.  1,000%.

As for solutions, it doesn't seem unreasonable for me to have a 'dishonorable penalty' of killing a grey equal to double the negative the honor points off of killing an even leveled mob (with no number of kills limit). As most griefers enjoy PvP this takes care of the vast majority of them while making the penalty low enough that casual PvP is still possible.

I cannot believe that in 2006, in a game with both PVE and PVP servers, someone is on a PVP server crying about getting azzraped.  It's like the last nine years didn't happen.

Are you saying that the penalty for killing a grey would be "you have to go kill two mobs your level"?  That's way too light to deter anyone, at least in a game like WoW.

I seriously don't get it.  There should be no penalty whatsoever for killing anyone of any level, its just ridiculous to me that anyone would have the nerve to complain about ganking on a pvp server.  This isn't UO, you had a god damn choice and you chose the server that lets other people gank you.  Personally i think "dishonorable" kills should be encouraged just so people who are bothered by them are forced to roll on a pve server and stfu.

Na, its the assrapers complaining they have no one to rape because things like battlegrounds have become popular and they can't find helpless victims.

Thats retarded also.   Specially the ones who claim "world pvp took real skill".  Whatever bud, just because you kicked everyones ass when you where ganking farmers, questers and people running into instances and now you cant cut it in bgs doesnt mean world pvp was better.

It was better because it was more fun due to its unpredictable ever-changing non-scripted nature.

But whatever, I'm over even talking about pvp around here at this time.  These are online games with what is theoretically meant to be a persistent "world" not console/arcade fighting games.  I look forward to talking to you all when you realize the difference.

Or my "kind" or whatever bullshit angry stereotyping would be thrown my way if I actually tried to debate anything in this thread will just be relegated to low-budget niche titles, while you all romp in your linear diku suckfest "online" chatrooms.  Where the only content of the game is playing Barbie dress up with the occasional farming/crafting/grinding/lewtz0r and possibly even sub-par meaningless pvp minigames.

Is it hard to see us down here from up on that pedestal?

LoL, meaningful.
What's meaningful about Lord of Flies PvP?
The nature of the technology and the nature of the business absolutely precludes any game from being meaningful beyond personal taste.
If you want meaningful, spend sometime with your family.

Its only unpredictable for the one being killed.  The guys who are roaming around killing farmers and questers are always ready.

Someone needs a hug  :hello_kitty:

I only see one angry person in this thread, and it's you.

Well, two if you count Haemish, but that's a perpetual state, and I sort of got used to it.

(http://www.technoplus.com/images/crying_baby.gif)

The idea is that the 47s gank questing players, ie. level 40 to 59 and maybe newb 60s (fights they know they can win), they can easily do this with the proper gear. Then when the geared out 60s come to smash their face in, they can't do anything to stop it (the 47s will be smart enough to not attack the anti-PKs)

This thread delivers! BTW, horde ganks just as much as alliance. :<3


-- Z.

So you do realize that the kind of world pvp ganking I'm talking about takes no skill whatsoever, right?

Yes thats exactly what im saying... i dont see how that conflicts with my opinion that rolling on a pvp server and complaining about ganking is idiotic.

It's called a middle ground.

See, PVE servers are boring to me because people there don't like the "challenge" of fighting against other players. It's rare you can find actual PVP on the WoW PVP servers.

But on PVP servers, there is this contingent that thinks PVP means "I KILL J00 ALL DA TIME ALL DAY BLELARJIILREURLJAJ" and are complete frothing morons. They feel it is their duty and holy obligation to kill anything that moves, whether that thing is the equivalent of a retarded, crippled fetus or not. They prefer the fetus.

In level-based games, it's way too easy to beat on the fetuses like an abortion doctor.

The people like me who actually want a challenge that they may not win, but at least have a chance to, can't tolerate the PVE servers because it encourages being a complete pussy, and can't tolerate the PVP servers because its full of raging douchebags whose primary purpose is to measure their e-peen against helpless fetuses (feti?). There is no middle ground, no server where people can be open to PVP without being susceptible to being roadkill from demigods of douchebaggery fallen to earth to mingle amongst the fetuses.

So I can either be surrounded by sloppy, sandy pussies or used, raging douchebags.

The only way to win is not to play.

Miyagi: Now, ready?
Daniel: I guess so.
Miyagi: [sighs] Daniel-san, must talk. Man walk on road. Walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk down middle, sooner or later, get squished
[makes squish gesture]
Miyagi: just like grape. Same here. You karate do "yes," or karate do "no." You karate do "guess so,"
[makes squish gesture]
Miyagi: just like grape. Understand?
Daniel: Yeah, I understand.
Miyagi: Now, ready?
Daniel: Yeah, I'm ready.

Right, and we should allow football players to use handguns on the field so they can go full PvP.

I disagree. This is powergaming catassers we're talking about. Any small detriment to their grinding up to rank 14 is to be avoided at all costs.

People ganking newbs in stv arent grinding for rank.

From what I've seen, a lot of them have gone up the pvp ladder, and ganking newbs all day in STV would drop them back down in a hurry. I'd try this out and see what sort of impact it made before doing stricter measures. I think it might be enough. Every time i've been on the ganking end, it isn't some grunt/sarge doing the killing it's a stone guard/knight. Well, tried to gank me. I was a druid. You just can't gank a druid, not even if you have 15 levels on them.

Le sigh, so bored today...


@Rasix:  Yes, yes it is.


@tazelbain:  LoL level-based pvp is great?  PvP+ doesn't have to devolve into lord of the flies, hell Face of fucking mankind had areas that were controlled by anti's 90% of the time.  Which is where everyone went to do their shopping and that game was a joke.  I'm sure somebody with more money and skill could do even better.  But your right, player justice can not work because UO was a griefer paradise.

Let us just ignore the fact that in EvE player alliances control huge amounts of space and keep out pirates, unfortunately they also kill anyone who isn't explicitly an ally.  But in the fringes of empire space there are plenty of coalitions of non-pirate corps working to keep their space clear of gatecamps and miner-hunters.

Or how about cities like MoneyTree in SB that was on complete lockdown for thieves and PK's, although they eventually ran out of room on their guard aggro list and the city was destroyed in a huge siege eventually.

You are totally right though, UO's failure will always stand as proof for all time that pvp+ will not work ever and anyone trying to design a system thinking otherwise is an idiot.


@Threash:
I'd like to now how it was predictable when my small guild would bring 15-20 people to the horde town in Arathi Highlands and effectively lock it down.  Then various alliance guilds would join us while major horde pvp guilds would arrive to help their lower members.  Due to the skill imbalance in horde favor on Archimonde at launch in terms of skill/organization and overall number of pvp'ers we often ended up being driven back to that hole in the ground that the alliance call a town and having to defend from there untill everyone decided it was time to go back to leveling.

But whatever as usual my experiences to the contrary prove nothing and mean nothing, because some idiots on a pvp server having a funeral in a contested area got wtfpwn'd or whatever the hell the whine of the week is.

@Jayce:  Heh, I'm hardly angry, dissapointed would be the proper word.  Although having to insert all those quotes did piss me off a little bit.

> You are totally right though, UO's failure will always stand as proof for all time that pvp+ will not work ever and anyone trying to design a system thinking otherwise is an idiot.

I know you are green-texting this, but it is correct.  Open pvp will always degenerate to Lord of Flies.  Maybe with some elaborate, ham-fisted sticks and carrots you could make it work.  But it wouldn't be open pvp and still wouldn't be meaningful. 

> LoL level-based pvp is great?
Depends on the disparity of the levels.  Lately, I have been concerned about equipment disparity since max level is getting easier.

Ok so let me see here, I give 3 examples from 3 different games only one of which was even making an effort to stop gankers (FoM) of how players are protecting game areas through their own willpower and devices in open pvp games.  In fact all 3 of the examples show meaningful pvp (people fighting to keep space safe in EvE, people working for the cops/military in FoM -a factional choice- doing their jobs and players in SB keeping the city safe so that they can make tons of money from the vendors/trainers).

You counter with, yes UO proves that it will never work.

Good job, you sure showed me there buddy.

The same way there are many players who are drawn towards praying on the weak for kicks there are players who are drawn towards protecting them.  It doesn't matter if they are motivated by altruism, profit or personal safety in numbers the end result is meaningful conflict between the forces of order and those of chaos.  It doesn't seem like rocket science to me that if a game was to increase the power of those motivators and increasing the risk associated with straying too far onto the wrong side of the law that a gameworld with open pvp might be able to avoid devolving into lord of the flies.

Well, can't comment on FoM.  Don't know its mechanics.

game|open?|degenerate?|works?|meaningful?
Old-UO|yes|yes|no|no
Eve|no|no|yes|no
SB|yes|yes|no|no
DAoC|no|no|yes|no
GW|no|no|yes|no
WoW|no|no|yes|no

notice the pattern?

Now, you have it your head that someone, somewhere will make an open PvP system that won't degenerate.  Why? All evidence is to the contrary.     People are dicks. They are dicks squared when there are no consequences.  Throw in the dehumanization effect of the internet and they are dicks to the forth power.  Its just too much dick for any system to hand.  We restrict the amount of dickish behavior so we have to deal with 1.1^4 instead 10^4 and it works.

I'd like to see more dynamic worlds but open PvP is not the way to do it.

Just what IS the dynamic in EVE?  What percentage of the game consists of each of these security levels?  What happens when you try starting shit in one?

Good to see these pissing matches keep going on even when I take a break.

Are you a fucking moron? Do you even play the game? Do you even understand what I am talking about?

Anyway, yes, you can be camped, even if you try to leave the area when you rez. It's kind of hard to get away from a 60 on an epic mount.

Also, most people who play on a PvE server don't want to PvP, at all. This includes duels and battlegrounds. Half of the ones who do suck copious amounts of ass at it. Therefore, trying to get PvP action on a PvE action is something of an exercise in futility.

I don't mind "constantly being in danger." I don't mind getting jumped by people around my level, because then I at least have something of a chance to win or survive.

And wanting to throttle griefers a bit (because that's what they are) is far from unreasonable. Being demonstrative doesn't do much to prove your point - it just makes you look like a raging douchebag.

You know you are quoting a UO Dread Lord, right?  I assumed that post was a joke, if it was meant to be serious it's funnier.

They were going on long before you showed up here.  :roll:

Not according to Zen.

Shadowbane is shutting down in a month. Faces of Mankind... well it sucked so much ass, it's really not worthy of the discussion. But is it even still living? Of all you mention, only Eve can be called a success, and its 100,000 subscribers is not going to threaten WoW anytime soon. Niches, see?

Also, the thing you mention in Eve isn't player justice, it's players staking claims over the section of space; if a police force did what you are describing, they'd be called corrupt because they not only take out the bad guys but anyone they don't like. Justice is fair and even-handed, which is why player justice as a whole doesn't work. Players aren't going to be fair or even-handed most of the time.

I disagree with what you said, Miyagi. Humanity lives in the middle.

Niche proves what exactly?  None of those 3 games have huge budgets either, all were made by companies with a shitton less experience/talent/magic mojo then Blizzard.

I can construct a 100% logical argument about how WoW's gameplay is absolute trite shit, it boils down to the same unimpressive shit that we've seen re-skinned ad nauseam since EQ.  You will of course counter with, WoW is polished and fun which is true.  I've played it I can see the basic appeal.  Good for you, the blizz fanbois and all the newbs to MMO's that haven't already been playing that game for years.  But using the fact that there are more people who want to play a shiney game where things work perfectly then a game with obvious flaws that is trying to do a little more then clone EQ doesn't prove anything.  You can't have your cake and eat it too here, either American Idol is the best TV show or WoW having millions of subs proves nothing in terms of its merits versus those of other games.

As for EvE, if there is a set of behaviors that the playerbase will tolerate and another set they will not and they are able to protect parts of the gameworld from those who perpetrate the behaviors they want to avoid then there is player justice, perhaps you dont agree with the laws they choose to enforce, their method of enforcement or the barrier for entry into their protected space.  But if you dont, then take some of your own, set up your own rules and make sure you can enforce them.  See?  Player freedom, its a wonderful thing.  If you dont like the way people act in WoW, well  you better leave the area, mute them, or log off.  See?  Game on rails.

Being a UO player in 2006 is like being a wicked and bitter old man, kept alive only by hatred and the desire to see his enemies die before he does.  Shadowbane is closing?  Allow me to think back on years worth of "Shadowbane is going to kill this game!" and "See you in Shadowbane assholes!" posts from disrgruntled UO PKs and laugh my ass off.

I can't wait for them to pull the plug on SWG so I can run laps around Brit bank and figuratively dance on it's grave.

I'd have never quit SB if they had done three things:

1.  Make the game technically work.
2.  Bypass the terrible PvE afk leveling in the game.
3.  Not make it so damned easy to wipe a town away.  Defenders should always have the advantage.

They solved number 3 too late.

If they just gave you all the exp you needed to be a participant in the wars at the beginning, you could build your template as you wanted and get at it.  The challenges would have been in maintaining your city, shops/items, and the mines they added later.

WP continued to hold onto that stupid PvE portion of the game.  They could have kept all the monsters and lore, but just made everyone viable from character creation.  All PvE would be from that point on is a way of increasing fame, items, gold, etc.  Using it as a block to character creation was just not right for that game.

The lands that held the best hunting grounds would be like mines.  To be fought over, etc.  The way they left it, you were just a wolf forced to be a lamb for some time before you could be a wolf.

I did not quit SB because it was open PvP.  That was the thing that kept me there as long as it did.

# 1 - how can you construct a logical argument that would effectively "prove" an opinoin?  I would love to see this.

# 2 - I am neither and I have enjoyed WOW (with a several-month break) since release.  Try again.

WoW is not American Idol. It can actually provide pointers for some basic lessons for MMOG developers in the future. Just because it IS an EQ clone doesn't mean it can't also be FUN. It is both. I see nothing wrong with that.


But what you mention isn't justice, it's territorial control.

Justice is:

And this isn't that. It IS the implementation of player LAW, which isn't the same thing. It is was justice, it'd be fair, and you yourself said there were some people who they just blew up to blow up, because they didn't like them or for whatever reason. Perhaps it was because of their misdeeds or perhaps not, but it wasn't justice. And if it only exists in certain areas, that means there are obviously other areas where their player "justice" can have no effect?

Player "justice" to mean anything within the context of stopping griefers AND keeping people from quitting the game in frustration will have to be a global thing. Just being able to band together to gank the gankers ISN'T justice, it's vengeance, which does nothing for the ganked.

Since when is justice more fun than vengeance?  Since when is 'fairness' a big deal in MMOs to begin with?

It seems to me that if you're making a fun game, players won't be caring too much whether it's fair or not - they'll just be playing and having fun.  If your game isn't fun, and everyone's just worried about how their numbers stack up to everyone else's, that's when the complaints about fairness start coming out.

A truly fun MMO should be able to run under the weight of gross class/playstyle imbalances and still not suffer too much.

A game where everyone's worried about balance between classes, gear, playstyles, etc. is a game that probably isn't all that fun.

It's also a game that's being actually played by people on the planet Earth.  If we're going to completely disregard reality when discussing games in regards to player motivations, we might as well discuss the ramifications for playing the game on planet Zircon in the Horsefucker nebula where the concepts of greed, jealousy and self-esteem are yet to be discovered.

What the fuck are you smoking?  People have played plenty of games that don't play by your bullshit rules and enjoyed them plenty.  In AC1, back when Mace and Spear were uber-gimped (essentially 50% damage output of better weapons), people who knew the game still made mace and spear chars from time to time, because it was fun.

In AC1, it was an Absolute Mandate of the Game that quest weapons could never be as good as loot.  They always had to be 75% of the DPS of loot weapons, max.

New quests came out every month, and 90% of them did not produce any gear that was better than what you already had.  People still did tons of quests.

The same is true of plenty of other MMOs, I'd imagine.

There were a few bitches about class balance, there were a few complaints about 'useless' quest weapons, but 95+% of the playerbase couldn't give a shit less.  They just played.

I repeat: WTF are you smoking?

I played AC for a year and a half.  I didn't do quests that resulted in crap loot.  I would read maggiethejackcat and other sites to see where the good stuff was, and do those quests, or farm those monsters.

I don't do quests in WoW unless they have good rewards, or they lead to a chain that ends with something I want.  If loot in the game improves my character, I am going  do what it takes to improve my character.  I'm not talking twinking, or showing up to farm night, I still like the challenge of obtaining the reward, I just tend to avoid activities in PSWs, unless there is a definate gain (helping guildmates gear-up leads to a gain, so that doesn't doesn't bother me).  Of course, if the game is not fun, I wont play for long, but usually questing for the sake of questing doesn't work for me.  PNP is a different animal.

Diablo 2 is still probably the best game I've played in the last 10 years.  It's all about the loot, and it happened to be fun as well.

You outta try playing some games too, instead of asking folks how they are haha.

See, maybe it's just me, but I have a hard time taking the opinion of anyone who liked Diablo seriously.

Have you ever played Sonic?  How about Mario?  Did you just use the Warp Worlds every single time in Mario, because "the whole point was to get to the end"?

How do you play SimCity?

Linky (http://simcity.ea.com/play/classic_instructions.php)

You can win Sonic and Mario.  You can go back and play them and find secret levels, or see if you can beat them without getting hit.  Whatever. 

Sim City has goals as well.

Depending on the PSW your goals are different.  You cannot *win* a PSW.  Loot whoring is a  popular goal.  Quests that give shitty rewards, do not get accepted.  WoW even shows me what I am questing for.  No longer am I taking a letter to some sister in the Karanas, spending the night playing Dodge the Griffon, to be rewarded with practically nothing.

There are a few quests I'd do in WoW, for no rewards.  Some are just fun.  The fight club scene for warriors on the island off of the Barrens.  The 100 Trolls event in Zul'Farrak.  Most of them (same for any game) I do the quests because they either advance my character, or reward me with loot, not for the sheer joy of questing.

AC1 for the most part had boring quests.  Hell, half the time you didn't know where they were.  You just killed a bunch of shit, randomly mashed items together from your loot pile, and got your crappy reward.  As time went on, people documented the crappy mashing part, so you didn't have to spend hours mindlessly smashing your widgets together hoping for a result.  It wasn't until they added the Zeyshanmurple (can't remember spelling) islands with the Jungle Wasps, Idols. and Obsidian Golems that questing got semi-tolerable.  The other quests I remember of note, were the Bandit hilt line, virindi scalpel... having to farm golems to make my ingots..  basically the better of the loot quests.

The majority of players I remember from Morningthaw, spent their days, life-draining through walls, firebolting tuskers, or getting buffed-up and afking some Volthoi (bring plenty of stam potions).  Not questing, loot farming.  Then trading the rest of the day at the Arwick Subway for SIKs or whatever.

<----------------

He's playing MMOG's. You are playing some strange fever dream version of AC, which likely didn't exist except in your mind, and only had about 100k subscribers at best.

Your dreams do not match the reality of MMOG's.

...............................?

I loved Diablo2.  Hated the community, loved the game.  What's not to love? 

My mini-Diablo Lord of Terror is my favorite pet in WoW, too (although panda is a close second).

Simcity is more of a sandbox than a game, although one can set goals or play the scenarios with preset goals.

Actually, he's likely right.  If you look at the World of Warcraft message boards, you might assume that everyone is constantly bitching about class balance.  In game, however, it's a different story.  There's a lot of people who just play the game, and don't care about the class balance to that degree (unless something is SO broken that it affects their ability to play at all) or if the quests they complete give the best rewards.  It's like that in a LOT of MMO's.

Spears and Mace:  mostly true.  AC played host to a lot of different play types, and only having suggested classes(though god help the early players that actually tried Vagabond)made it easier to diversify yourself.  That freedom of skill selection also made it easier to create a crunched class and thus plenty of cookie-cutter builds developed, ala Og-made, Life/Item/Critter-anything, Life/Item Archer and so on.  Still, my favorite MMO to date.

Loot: You are being supremely fucking stupid.  Yes, it didn't take too much time to find some random-loot equipment that was superior to quest-oriented items, but more often than not that item would be one of several you lose on your first death.  WoW doesn't have item loss on death, but AC does and that means you would be hauling a backpack-full of DI's across Dereth if you knew how to play.  Thus, almost everybody has to have an atlan of their type, archers REQUIRE a composite, for mages it's a focusing stone and quiddity orb, because when those golems starting doing their bullshit and landing consecutive crits while you are resisted or are missing every fucking shot, you are going to lose your best shit which is probably what you are wearing.  Carrying high-value garbage like fealty VI orbs can help a lot in preventing that from happening on your first or even second death, but when the vitae rolls in you eventually are running bare-ass naked for your 5 corpses and open to continued monster-gangbangs.
Then there's the quest-related shit that starts out overly powerful.  Gertarh's Dagger anybody?  How about the original Hoary Robe or pre-patch GSA?


I find it particularly amusing that you look down upon those that like Diablo.  If you are going to pass yourself off as somebody that likes AC and thinks they know what the fuck they are talking about, perhaps you should feign acceptance that these games are all about that motherfucking "Ding!".

AC is a lot like diablo.  Extremely easy for a vet to rush to soft cap, nothing to do at the soft cap except collect rare gear drops and the must brutal xp treadmill ever devised by non-Koreans.  Lots of disposable, gimmick characters.  No group mechanics beyond a couple guys soloing next to each other.  Very few challenging encounters; everything is either pathetically trivial to slaughter in hordes or will instagib you.  Semi-twitchy PvP.  Riddled with exploits and cheese tactics.  AC was in 3d and had more people running around.  On the flipside, AC was a much more naked spreadsheet than D2.

Eh, it wasn't quite that brutal until they "fixed" the monarchy chain exploiting, but god yeah the xp treadmill in that game is fucking hideous if you really look at it.

I also agree about the D2 thing.  Both are quite similar.

But everyone wasn't racing to beat Sonic and Mario!  If anything, they were sad when they were over, because the fun was in the playing of the game itself.  The percentage of Sonic and Mario players who replayed them to try and win without getting hit, for bragging rights or whatever, is about the same percentage of players that do things like speedruns for games like Quake, Megaman, etcetera.  In other words, really fucking small.


Why would you set a goal when you play?  If you're having to set goals when you log on, that's a pretty gigantic fucking indicator that you're playing the game as work rather than for fun.  What, do you have less fun if your goals go unachieved?

When I read the above sentence, what I see is "Most of WoW's content is not fun".


Vesayen, not Zeyshanmurple.  Close, though!  Anyhoo, that was what, less than a year into release?  Very few of AC's quests (then or now) involved killing a bunch of shit.  Most quests involved dungeon exploration, and I'd say a majority of quests have multiple dungeons required for completion (Some have upwards of ten).  But yeah, moving on.


Assuming games with 100k subscribers are more fun, why would I want to play a game with 6.5 million subscribers?  Why should I approach MMOs from the perspective of a business investor, and not a gamer who wants to have fun?

[quote author=Loot: You are being supremely fucking stupid.  Yes, it didn't take too much time to find some random-loot equipment that was superior to quest-oriented items, but more often than not that item would be one of several you lose on your first death.  WoW doesn't have item loss on death, but AC does and that means you would be hauling a backpack-full of DI's across Dereth if you knew how to play.  Thus, almost everybody has to have an atlan of their type, archers REQUIRE a composite, for mages it's a focusing stone and quiddity orb, because when those golems starting doing their bullshit and landing consecutive crits while you are resisted or are missing every fucking shot, you are going to lose your best shit which is probably what you are wearing.  Carrying high-value garbage like fealty VI orbs can help a lot in preventing that from happening on your first or even second death, but when the vitae rolls in you eventually are running bare-ass naked for your 5 corpses and open to continued monster-gangbangs.
Inaccurate - death items were the easiest fucking thing in the world to stay supplied with.  With the exception of PvP'ers, the majority of carebears I know did not roll with quest weapons out of any sort of necessity.  Besides, the vast majority of quest weapons are droppable on death, just like loot weapons, and if anything higher value.  You're remembering some odd, twisted version of AC - not the game as it actually was.


The gear is not an important part of the game.  The soft cap is not an important part of the game.  How much XP monsters give you is not an important part of the game.  Grouping vs soloing is not an important part of the game.  Difficulty of mob encounters is not an important part of the game.  Anything spreadsheet related is not an important part of the game.

Jesus christ, this is the same logic people with no fucking clue use to compare GW to DDO as if the two have anything at all in common.  The difference between the way people lived out their characters in the world in Diablo and in AC were as different as night and day.  Focusing on the absolutely superficial aspects of the game, and not what actually makes things fun, is a great way to miss the whole point.

With the exception of a couple of points on your list, the things you named had almost nothing to do with whether either game was fun or not.

XP, for instance.  I was rolling in the XP through XP chains, despite the fact that I almost never hunted anything.  When XP chains were nerfed, I basically stopped receiving almost any XP whatsoever, levelling up at about the rate of once per month or two. Did my play experience inside the game change?  No!  Levels aren't the point, they're just a means to an end in some systems, a cockblock on being able to fun in a given MMO depending on how it's structured.  AC wasn't structured with those cockblocks, so it wasn't an issue.

You're a fucking idiot. You set yourself goals in MMOGs because there's a metric asston of different things you can do in any given gaming session. My goal for this afternoon's gaming might be "get mage the rest of the way to level 43" or it might be "do a bunch of quests in <zone>" or "I'd like to do a Scholo run or two" or "I feel like some hot elven PVP action". A goal can be anything.

When I read your sentence, I see you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. But then again, I'm feeding the troll here after all.

You are comparing Mario, Sonic, and Zelda, to Asheron's Call and World of Warcraft!  I think Guild Wars vs Dungeons and Dragons Online is an acceptable comparison.

Since I'm already here, how was the storyline in Diablo 2 less fun than Asheron's Call?  I can be the hero in Diablo 2, in AC I am 12 boxes or so on an excel sheet.  Both games were fun.  Fun for different reasons, but fun.  The quests in AC, were not why AC was fun for the majority of players.  The loot in Diablo 2 was one of the main reasons why D2 is fun for the majority of players.  Ask both sets of players about either game, what they liked about them, and loot is going to come into the discussion.  Loot can be fun!  It's ok to admit that.

Stop telling me what is and isn't fun.

Unfortunately for this player event, killing a crowd of players who don't want to be killed at that particular moment, is many players idea of fun as well.  Rerail.

The day I realized that having an achievable goal and getting there was key to my fun was the day i started having a lot more fun.  This was in UO and it applied to AC as well.

BTW AC is probably my favorite memories of an MMOG but you are making me almost rethink that.  You win teh intarnet.

You mean... I wasn't supposed to have _goals_ when I played Mario?

I wasn't supposed to want to get to the end of the level and beat up the many faces of Bowser and rescue the princess?

I was just supposed to press buttons randomly and enjoy the blinking lights?

Having a "goal" in World of Warcraft is a little like deciding on your warp zone in Mario. I mean, you start out playing the game straight through, but with a little practice you can skip ahead to 4 and then to 8. You're choosing from the options the game offers you. Is using a warp zone "work" rather than "fun"?

--GF

Uh, yeah.  Not really.  The fun is the ride, not the destination.  The decision to structure the game where it goes "World 1, World 2, World 3, etc etc, Bowser, done" is really arbitrary as far as fun is concerned.

Case in point:  One of the more fun 'pac man' style games I've played, known as Sonic The Hedgehog Blue Spheres.  It was formed when you plugged Sonic The Hedgehog 1 into the Sonic & Knuckles add-on adapter.  It was based off the schematic for bonus levels in Sonic the Hedgehog 3, for those who remember.

There were, literally, infinite levels - for what it's worth, you could skip 10 levels at a time if you got a perfect score.

Some of us just played it for so long as it was fun, and enjoyed the ride.

Others?  There were people on the internet who literally made it up to level 50,000 and published password lists on the internet, in a futile search for a "goal" that wasn't there.

People are broken.

Yeeeeees, but I am making it my _goal_ to get to the end of that path.

Or to clip off the top of the screen and take severe shortcuts to the end of that path.

Following the game structure to completion is the "default" goal, such as it is, but it's because I have that goal at all that I'm willing to experience the minor frustrations that come with learning the game mechanics and overcoming the game's challenges.

--GF

I suspect that holding the virtual funeral in a constested area was intentional. The idea would be to demonstrate that real world events, such as a players death, would unite the players to such a degree that they would over-ride the "pretend" hostility of their characters. As can be seen they had far too much optimism about human nature.

Personally the WoW PvP servers are doing their job of filtering sociopathic and attention starved losers away from the PvE realms. The fact that they offer nothing, given that all progression and gameplay is now focused in instances (universally PvE) and battlefields (universally PvP), doesn't seem to have occurred to most of the denizens. I guess they're too busy "ownzoring".

I still fail to see how busting up that funeral was a bad thing.  What if it went off without a hitch and they decided that since it went so well they should have church services in the middle of a pvp area every sunday? i mean only a sociopathic asshole of the lowest order would bust up a church service in real life, it must be the same in a game right?  What if it becomes the norm to expect everyone to stop their regular play everytime one of the 6.5 million and rising people playing wow supposedly dies, with that many people im sure one or two of them gotta be kicking the bucket every day.  Fuck that, the way i see it those guys where doing a service to everyone.

Do you get aroused from writing this kind of stuff?

The wheel has turned full circle, Clarice, and I have a lapful of sperm.

Well here is a reply by the actual leader of the player raid.

And for the sheer hell of it lets post Serenity's reply to the massacre.

QUOTE
As much as I hated what you did to the funeral, I just wanted to ask questions without starting a huge flame war.

1. Why did you do it?

All they were trying to do was have a final farewell to their friend. I agree, they should have done it in non-contested area, but still.

and I know you say "Send her parents a card, play your game."

Well, she may have known them, but her parents probably didn't. What would they think if they got a card from a stranger?


2. How come you don't feel bad for their loss of a friend?


I guess that those are the only two questions I had.

-Fusk

Reply by serenity now:

1. I did it to piss off those people that brought RL drama into a public video game. I did it because i think the idea of holding a memorial inside a video game is ridiculous and uncalled for, and frankly i think it's embarassing and even dissrespectful to the deceased.

the area that they held it in doesn't matter, it was just a mistake. the whole concept of acting out a funeral with your warrior cows or undead sorcerers is laughable to me, and i enjoyed crashing the event.

sending a card from strangers is wierd? how about sending them a video of you as computer game characters bowing and kneeling infront of your daughter's troll?

2.
People die every day. I lost 2 family members last year, and i don't log on to a video game to expect complete strangers from all over the world to respect my loss. Most of them probably didnt know her outside the game.

That said i do feel sorry for her loss, i just don't feel a need to respect a bunch of dorks acting out a funeral in a video game. For me it wasnt about her, it was about the people in the game.

My opinon. The guys who held the ingame funeral were geeky morons and deserved everything they got for being geeky morons Sheesh. Get over yourselves already. With all the pain and sufferring in this world today and people feel the need to comment on this event over and over again. Official in us en eu, the unofficals here. Let's talk about the AIDS epidemic in Africa, let's talk about 300 children a day dying from famine in Africa (that's 12,5 kids every hour), let's talk about the child warriors of the Congo, let's talk about the Nuclear arms race in North Korea, let's talk about anything that actually means something worthwhile and not just some geeks getting upset that e-funeral with their silly pixels got wtfpwned. Haha! Long live Serenity the bringers of Reality to the geeky wow players. Makes me wanna get a us copy of wow just so I can be in that guild.

LoL PvP action on a PvP server in Contested Terrotory. Whatever is the world coming to? Who will stop the nukes now?!


This stuff just gets funnier and funnier! Check out the post they made announcing the memorial service to the maxium pwnage to the degenerate argument that follow. Hillarious!

http://forums.illidrama.com/showthre...?t=1826&page=2
______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Above from     http://forums.worldofwar.net/showthread.php?t=366556

My goal in Super Mario was to run straight into the first Goomba and die, over and over again.

No but i did rub one off to the video.

The anecdotal evidence is that people who are assholes in games are generally assholes in real life as well, or would be if they could.

The fact is, other people in online games ARE real people. Being an asshole in an online game isn't any different than being an asshole at a bar or while playing Monopoly. It's real people. It takes an incredible lack of awareness to realize that.

Being an asshole in a game, over the phone, over email, whatever, it's all real people on the other end. The key distinguishing feature of games like GTA is that it isn't real people, it's a computer program. That isn't the case in MMORPGs. If you make someone else feel really bad, or really annoy them, you are doing that to a real life person.

The distinction between online games and "real life" is mostly an imaginary one people use to justify their behavior, rather than a legitimate difference.

I hope you die, stupid fuck. You probably are one of those ugly acne-scarred trenchcoat-wearing sad-sack hot-topic-shopping pussy mother fuckers who would strangle a cat if you had the balls and the strength.

Sounds mean. Good thing this isn't real life, just some online bits, or someone might accuse me of being a bit of an ass myself.

Someone died and somebody else wanted to draw attention to themselves.  They publically invited everyone to a funeral in a pvp zone.  Naturally it was gate crashed by some pk's, the only reason we are talking about it is the pk's made a nice video.  Shock, horror.  Lets have a picnic in a car wash with the top rolled down.

It's just a good job the people who organised the virtual funeral only wished to pay their respects to their dead friend.  If they were attention seeking then they would have to make a big deal out of the pk's, oh wait.  Who died again?

Wait, wait, I have an idea, lets recite poetry and song lyrics in honour of the dead person.  Who knows as this is happening online maybe it will all turn out well and person will still be alive, just like that EQ suicide girl (guy).

I'm really surprised to hear you espouse that crap line of reasoning.

I've never heard anyone accuse people who play the markets in MMO's or craft or whatever to make VIRTUAL MONEY be accused of being rich assholes in RL.  I mean obviously considering how much making fake money means to them they must also worship at the altar of the almighty dollar daily right?  Why do some crafters sell their wares at insane profit-margins because they can?  I mean its fake money, they dont even need that much fake money, what kind of asshole forces everyone else to grind gold just so I can buy some item I really want that this fucker happens to be able to make?

Some people need to be made to feel really bad or really annoyed until they realize what a buncha stupid fucks they are.  And i fucking love cats.

Uh, hi?  I've been called an asshole ingame, and I'm not an asshole in real life.  In fact, having been given many opportunities to be one, I've chosen not to.  Shocking?  Not really.

I found this part very helpful in organizing my own thoughts on the subject.

World of Wacraft is a game, not a world.  It's not even a "virtual world" in the sense the term is commonly used around here.  It's a game.  Specifically, on that server, it's a competetive PVP game.  This situation is not analogous to someone blitzing a funeral in real life.  It's analogous to a football team trying to hold a memorial service on the field during a game, and then getting outraged when the other team just hammers them and scores a touchdown.

It's not particularly kind, and we can safely look down on the guy who yells "Fuck that dead asshole!" as he runs for the endzone, but the fact of the matter is that a WoW PVP server is intended as a place to pwn azz, not hold funerals.

Every single story you tell of your real life tells me different.

Sorry.

WoW is not worldly enough for you, so that means it's OK to fuck those who DO find it worldly enough? Fuck them in the "azz"? And fuck their corpse, too?

Which part of, it was an advertised event in a pvp zone, are people having trouble understanding?

MMOG players appear to be of two types - those who believe it's just a game so one can behave however one wants, and those who believe it's a world, where normal social constraints apply.

PvP servers have both kinds of people.

From a zero sum perspective, the former win.  But then, the former are the only ones playing from a zero sum perspective.

From a Virtual World perspective, the former are griefers.  But griefers appear in real life also, although they are called criminals, and there are societal mechanisms that attempt to control them (somewhat successfully) by fines, jail, prison, and so on.

So one Virtual World response, since this VW is largely anarchistic, is to "take the law into one's own hands" or to grief the griefers.  Hunt them down and kill them repeatedly whenever they are found.

Seems like it would be ever so much more satisfying to pk these bastards and their lowbie guildies than to whine about them endlessly on forums. 

"You're an asshole!"
"No, I'm not! Well, maybe I am but those geeks deserve it!  So what!?"

The problem with that is that the penalty for dying in wow is so minor that you wont "get them back" by killing them.  If you get that upset over being killed theres pretty much nothing you can do about it because theres nothing you can do to them in the game that will make them as upset as they made you.

You are right - at least for the 60s who are no longer levelling up.

It's a pain in the ass to be ganked repeatedly while levelling up though - especially when done artfully enough so that the deaths are not caused by players, but by allowing the mobs to finish the players off.  If the guild/guilds who interrupted the funeral are now consider KOS and actively hunted by the others, I would bet that would not be a great deal of fun for them.

Of course, the smart ones then don't join their guild until 60.

But then, the others can just grief all the other side lowbies, and make them all KOS.

[Edit: too many "artfullys" caused by interruption]

Yeah, pretty much.  It's a game, divided into two teams, with a points-system in place to track how much ass gets beaten.  Have your goddamn prayer-circle in the locker room, because if you do that shit on the field while the clock is running, you're going to get blindsided.

Yes.  Why should their perception that it's worldly enough trump mine that it isn't?  Why do they get preference?  Why shouldn't the converse logic apply true, and have them bow to 'my' perception that the game isn't a world, and consent to said 'azz' fucking?

Under your logic, civility in MMOs means that the most sensitive person always wins.  Fuck that noise.

Whether or not WoW is a world is a red herring. The real question is, did those players want to be potentially ambushed? And the answer is not "well they were in a contested zone, so obviously.." or "well I think..", it's either "they said they did" or "they said they did not".

Now, If you object to one corner of one zone having a seize-fire for 30 minutes, of which you knew about beforehand, because it adversely affects your ganking, who is being sensitive here?

An advertised event in a pvp zone results in pvp, especially if someone sensitive wants a "seize-fire".  It's difficult to assign values of "right" or "wrong" to something that can probably be demonstrated mathematically.

That's by design.  So maybe WoW isn't the game for them, then?


I don't object, I ignore.

Let me repeat myself, because this is obviously an extremely difficult concept:

The anecdotal evidence is that people who are assholes in games are assholes in real life.

The anecdotal evidence is NOT that people who play the markets in MMOs or craft are greedy. The fact is in MMORPGs crafting and playing the markets is *smart*, not greedy. Crafting doesn't make you greedy any more than a job in real life makes you greedy.

Now, being very greedy in a game probably does correspond to being greedy in real life.

"Check your real personality at the door" is again mostly a fabrication by assholes who want to pretend they aren't assholes in real life. Again let me point out than in an online game the other players are real people, it *is* real life. If you gank someone for hours on end to purposely annoy them that's not really any different than keying someone's car. (Other than the monetary damage I suppose)

It's funny how many of you are so fucking dumb that you can't see that. It's really a shame more of you weren't aborted.

Having a funeral in a PvP zone was dumb, sure. But punishing dumb people for being dumb isn't a virtue. It's dumb for a girl to get drunk by herself and leave a bar at four in the morning, but you aren't doing the world any favors by raping and strangling her now are you?

Of course that's hyperbole but the logic still applies.

Why not just call a horse a horse? Some people attacked a player funeral because they are childish assholes. A lot of you are apparently childish assholes as well. Some people are very amused by making other people feel bad.

Do you have any dead siblings? Maybe a dead parent? I'm glad. I hope more die, very soon. Hilarious!

I basically think 2 thinks about this story:

1) The players were STUPID to hold it in a PVP zone, so what happened was inevitable and deserved.
2) The players who ganked the funeral were being assholes and their consciences should have told them against it.

So you see, I don't really take either side here, I believe both of them are wrong.

I don't know about "deserved", but otherwise I agree with the two point summary.  As much as I dislike dumb people though, I hate assholes more, especially ones that act that way purposefully.

So like, one day I was in a boxing match.  Only instead of boxing, I decided I was going to walk out to the center of the ring at the beginning of the round, and deliver a touching speech on the plight of child laborers in the Third World.  Anyway, the bell rings, I walk out and start to address the crowd, and my fucking opponent just starts like punching me and stuff.  That fucker.  I knew he hated children, but I didn't know he hated them this much.

Agreed.

Hmm, my usage of "deserved" was a little weird to be honest. It's not so much that they deserve to be ganked at the funeral, but that I believe people deserve to have fate slap them upside the head when they deliberately and unnecesssarily tempt fate.

Could they have expected it? Yes. Did they deserve it? No.

In boxing guys often touch gloves before they fight. There are no rules that say you have to do that. You can sucker punch the guy when he comes out to touch gloves. But you NEVER see that. See, I can make stupid analogies too.

When you hurt other people that's "real life." It seems obvious but some of you still don't get it.

Yes it would be annoying if people held player funerals every 2 hours in PvP zones, but that really is not a problem, and pretending that this is some sort of pre-emptive action against that is just a lame justification.

They should have expected it because the world is full of assholes. It takes a special kind of person to think to themselves "hey, someone DIED in real life and her buddies are trying to honor her, let's go kill them all and make sure to kill her avatar first!" Those kind of people deserve to be hit by cars.

There are some people who cannot tell the difference between life and a game. There are also people who pretend that "real life" and games are not related at all, even when a game is populated by other human players. Both are mental deficiencies.

People who can't tell the difference between real life and GTA are certifiably bonkers. People who honestly think that any online game is "just a game" and not connected to real life in any way are as well.

Purposely hurting other people is wrong. Wow, what a novel concept! The intent of this action was to hurt a bunch of people's feelings - that's the definition of being an asshole.

There's one thing to say and then I think I'm done.

Fuck you and your phonetic misspellings. Fuck you for every "there" instead of "their" and "your" instead of "you're". Fuck your for fucking up the beautiful English language. "Seize-fire", indeed. Thank you and fuck you.

lolz

We should invent a building in real life, away from the online assholes where family and friends can gather to hold a funeral for the deceased.  We could call the building a "Murch".

Summary: Stupidity versus Assholery, what do you like better?

If the funeral people had just held this quietly, telling only their friends, and it was leaked and they were attacked, I'd be more sympathetic.  But writing a post saying "WE ARE HAVING A FUNERAL PLZ DON'T ATK PLZ" tips the scales against them- that seems odd.

No, you really are. You just don't know it.

Now, they asked for and expected a sense of honor and decency, a bit of respect for the very human emotion of grieving. It's just that the assholes smell grief and think it is ambrosia of the gods. It is like kitty litter for assholes.

Yes, expecting a sense of honor in the most douchebag-populated MMOG ever was stupid. What's disappointing isn't that they were griefed, it was that they were griefed despite asking nicely and respecting the other side enough to say "We won't attack you if you won't attack us."

It just proves that most online players know fuckall about sportsmanship or fair play. And yes, it DOES prove that assholes in a game are assholes in real life, because the people on the other end of the keyboard ARE REAL PEOPLE.

Now that's some sig-worthy material, right there.

Don't play cricket on the freeway.







especially if the cars are allowed to hit you.

The grammar snake IS real!   :lol:

Logically, there are only three choices:

a) you are one in real life, for the aforementioned reason: those are real people on the other end and you are causing them pain of some sort knowingly.
b) you have a disconnect and don't really beleive on some level that those cartoons are controlled by real people with real agendas, plans etc.
c) the persons calling you out for being a jerk had sour grapes because you beat them in a duel they expected to win or something.  Note the close similiarity to real life, where people are also whiny.  If you attack a player funeral knowingly, then (Captain Obvious told me) you don't belong to this category.

It IS just a game.  If you get hurt by something that happens IN A GAME thats on you, not me.  You don't fucking cry when someone takes all your money in monopoly and you are real person, you don't fucking cry when someone dunks on you in basketball, you don't fucking cry when the princess is in another castle in mario.  Not even if your grandma just died.  People got pvped on a pvp server, thats ALL this fucking boils down too, thats ALL there is to it and anybody that tries to make any more out of it has some serious fucking problems they need to work on before they go online again.  You know what would stop shit like this from happening? if people didn't whine and cry and make a big deal out of it when something that happens a million times a day on hundreds of servers in dozens of fucking games happened, all because someone supposedly died and a bunch dorks are so disconnected from real life that they have to show their grief in a game.

You can't get those people back, ever.  They don't give a shit if they are killed, if kill them they laugh at you for getting you pissed enough to do it, if you camp them they will laugh at you for having pissed you off enough to drop what you where doing to pay attention to them.  You can't win as long as you give a shit.  People got pvped on a pvp server, its fucking meaningless and making a big deal out of it only reinforces that behavior.

Let me repeat myself for the 200th time while pretending that someone here might get over how they were camped one time and it made them break their mouse in frustration...

1.  The people who attacked the funeral did so because they are playing on a pvp server (we can therefore assume they want to pvp).  In fact due to WoW's overuse of instances and the majority of PvP taking place in the BG's its not a crazy leap to say that people on PvP servers want so-called "world pvp".  So lets see, you advertise that a large amount of targets will be somewhere at a certain time, they go there and attack, you know pvp, world-pvp even.  Not assholes, playing the game.

Here are two examples that actually apply to the situation, in fact I'd say they are rather unbiased ones.  I figure this might help you since you seem to have raping and strangling dead women confused with sportsmanship.

Example A:
Green Bay is playing Tampa, Farve is picked off (I think this was the sitrep sorry if I'm getting anything wrong).  The ball is comming the other way and well ahead of the defender returning it up the sideline Warren Sapp absolutely DESTROYS the TE of Green Bay.  For some reason this guy wasn't really paying attention, he gets fucking blindsided and injured.  GB's coach gets in Sapp's face about it, there is a bunch of sport's media coverage of the incident and debates about whether that is ok.


Example B:
Typekilling in an FPS.  I've heard this fucking argument 100 times, in CS you can see when a person is typing.  Some people expect to be not shot if they are typing, others will take the free headshot every time.

Sportsmanship is nice, but not required.  This applies esp. when we're talking about a lose war recreation.  I expect sportsmanship in FPS games, I dont typekill.  In an fps I expect people to keep the teams even, I expect clans not to stack one side and I prefer to not hear a bunch of shittalking.  This is because FPS games are an environment designed to be fair and test skill.

In a MMO where theoretically we are enemies, I dont expect any of that.  I dont expect fair fights, I dont ignore people who emote something nice to me.  If I was planning on killing them I'm going to kill them.  The whole purpose of PVP servers is to provide an open unpredictable combat environment.  I see a priest @ half hp, is he alone or are there two rogues sitting there?

I dont expect fair fights in Planetside do you?

See, let's put it another way. You won't get it, because you are a thick-headed douchebag, but I'll try anyway.

These people are all friends. They get together in one place to do friend things. That place happens to be an online virtual game place, but it's a place nonetheless. One of their friends dies. He shuffles off the mortal coil. They decide to hold a wake in the only place they can, their place to do friend things, i.e. the game of WoW. While not bothering anyone in that place, their place is burned down, they are ridiculed for using that place for friend things, etc.

If you had a clubhouse where your friends got together and someone tossed a Molotov cocktail into, ESPECIALLY when you are commemorating the death of a close friend, you'd be pretty pissed about it. But since that clubhouse where you gather is a fucking online game, you think it's ok to toss that Molotov Cocktail.

As for the Warren Sapp play, Hoax, Sapp is a cockbag. He shouldn't have hit the guy like that, and yes, the guy should have had his head on a swivel to avoid that. But it was still a dirty hit, and it wasn't sportsmanlike, I don't give a fuck how you couch it. Just because the guy should have been paying attention doesn't mean you can just coldcock him when he isn't even integral to the play. He was on the other side of the field from the play, so far away he might as well have been a goddamn spectator in the stands.

As for the people who say you don't have memorials for players in the middle of a football game, yes you do. There are tons of ceremonies commemorating the players of the game (tributes to Patrick Tillman, retiring someone's number, etc.). And if the visiting team started tackling people in the middle of these ceremonies because they were "on the field" or some other douchebag rationalization, they are assholes, and griefers and deserve to get fucking banned.

But I forget, there apparently isn't anyone else in the entire world playing the game at the same time as me. It's only my fun that matters, and intentionally ruining other people's fun WHEN THEY SPECIFICALLY REQUEST TO NOT HAVE THEIR FUN (OR MEMORIAL) RUINED is a perfectly acceptable social response.

I liken it to knocking down someone's sandcastle, hitting a passerby with the spray from a garden hose or snowball, or possibly those guys that drive around town scaring people with their specially mounted train horn. They're being jerks, but that's ok, it's a phase most people grow out of. Except those guys in their modded truck.

I'm not sure what you want; are you saying there are juviniles playing WoW? (O RLY?) Are you saying people are broken? it's pretty clear after spending 15 minutes on a PvP server that a small but active percentage of the people on it are in that particular mindset. I laughed at the video, but that's OK because I laugh at people's misery all the time. Mostly when they deserve it, like the people in the video.

Edit: it's funnier when you imagine them in guild chat saying "On my ambush, unleash NERD FURY!"

No its more like this:  people got killed on a pvp server then cried about it.  Thats all there is to it, im not rationalizing anything, thats exactly what happened.  I know damn well those are real people playing the game with me, i just don't see how they can be hurt by something that happens in a game.  Yes its god damn ok to toss a molotov cocktail in a game about tossing molotov cocktails, whats fucking wrong with that?  ITS A FUCKING GAME I DONT GIVE A FUCK HOW REAL YOU ARE YOU SHOULDNT BE HURT BY A GAME.  Im not saying purposely hurting other people is ok, im saying if you are hurt by a game you are the one with the problem not me.

You are saying that the people who were killed, who were in some form of mourning for their dead friend, should just suck it up since they are on a PVP server, because no one has any feelings on a PVP server other than RAWWWRRR OWNZED YOU AZZRAPP3!1!1111!!

They have feelings. They were in mourning. The party of mongoloids came along with the purposeful, malicious intent to make them feel bad, knowing that it isn't just a normal PVP death, it's a malicious attack on their REAL LIFE FEELINGS OVER THEIR DEAD FRIEND.

I think that's what he's saying.  He's saying it's just a game; it's not real.  Anyone who has real feelings about toons in a game is deluded and worthy of derision.


You're wasting your breath, Haemish, because, for this guy, there is no such thing as an online community.  He hasn't experienced it, so he has no clue what you are talking about.  It just doesn't exist for him.  Other people are just objects, like mobs - they are things to kill in a video game.  The idea that a person might have a valid emotional response is alien to him - the idea that a person would have an emotional response at all is hilarious.

He has no idea what you are saying.  He hears the words.  He does not have the capability to piece together the meaning.

Righto... im fucked in the head because i believe nothing can make throwing molotov cocktails wrong in a game called "molotov cocktail throwing online V: now with more 1st degree burninage!" .  Fuck off.

The last refuge of the PvEers is always "YOU KILL ME INGAME MEANS U HAVE MENTAL PROBLEMS IRL".  I believe there are also mental disorders flowing from the inability to separate fantasy from real life.  So instead of making dumbass psychological arguments that none of us know a flying fuck about because we aren't psychologists and non-dumbasses, maybe we should stop flinging around the idiot diagnoses, k?  k. 

If one of your guildmates dies in real life, mail his real-life mother a real-life sympathy card and shut the fuck up.  Don't come marching into my fun people-killing game to fag it up with your self-important public mourning.  It's not a world, and you don't live there.  If your friend died in reality, unplug yourself from the fucking Matrix already and go address it in reality.

Really, one of them buys a sympathy card from the store, and mails it to a guildmate.  They sign it, and mail it to the next guildmate, who signs it and sends it on to the next.  Eventually it gets mailed back to the first person, who sends it along to the family of the deceased, who receive a nice card signed by their kid's friends from around the country.  It's a hell of a lot better than them receiving a bizzare recording of some cartoon fucking trolls bowing in the woods, that they'll scratch their head at and then never look at again.

That's how you handle a real death, in the real fucking world.  Don't come into my recreational video game, going on about "This is our virtual worrrrrld! This is where we live and love and laugh and learn! So nobody gank us as we stand around in the Azzrape zone on the Pwnzor server or else you're a SOCIOPATH!"  Bullshit, get the fuck off the football field with that shit if you don't want to get tackled out of your fucking shoes.

I'd be inclined to side with Haemish if it wasn't for the fact that there are plenty of no-PvP areas where they could have done this.  That and the fact that roughly 100% of internet death notices are fake.

Bottom line out of all the horrible fucking examples given on this stupid thread, mine are the only ones that actually work.

Did Sapp need to level that guy?  Nope.
Can you cry about him leveling the guy?  Nope.
Was it a dirty mean thing to do?  Sure.
Does that make Warren Sapp a sociopath?  Nope.
Should that guy have used some common sense and not spaced the fuck out or whatever he was doing on that play (literally he was just jogging not paying any attention it was surreal).  Yup.

My typekilling one is even better, because it is online to begin with.  But I guess we'll ignore that one.

Bottom line is, the movie was fucking hi-larious it doesn't prove anything about anyone being an asshole in RL.  Any more then it proves that everyone at the funeral is some kind of fat nerd who cries IRL because some guy he played a game online died.  Oh they are also all fucking attention cock-whores too because they choose to advertise it and hold it where they could be ganked.  I bet they are all fat primadonnas who are rules lawyer nazi's who powergame in DnD.  I know that because of their in-game actions seee.

I'm really pretty saddened by the fact that out of all of you Triforcer is the only one who gets it.

No, it isn't that "You kill me ingame." Not every kill is the same.

But again, that assumes you have more than a binary understanding of the world. Or games. Or people.

It's fucked up. All you douchebags who don't think it's fucked up, die now please, before you breed your lack of humanity into your children.

Lack of fucking humanity?  Seriously I want you to go for a 10 minute walk come back and read this shit you're writing.

If you get anywhere near this bent out of shape by someone getting ganked THEN GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM GAMES WITH PVP you can't handle it.

Goddamn, some stupid funeral got ganked so fucking what?

What if this funeral was in SB?  Seriously would we be hearing anywhere near this level of crybaby bullshit?  What if some guild in SB decided to hold a fucking funeral in the middle of bumfuck nowhere, not their own castle but out in the goddamn open.  Would we cry them a river if someone stealth attacked their castle?  Would we cry if they got smashT? 

I fucking doubt it.

I realize WoW has pretty colors and cartoony gfx but goddamn this is insanity.



P.S.  The argument that they had nowhere else to express their feelings ONLINE for their ONLINE friend is SUCH FUCKING BULLSHIT IT MAKES ME WANT TO HIT YOU THROUGH THE FUCKING MONITOR.

Ever heard of irc?  Or a forum?  Shit fucking AIM eachother images of pink teddybears or whatever the fuck to cope with your horrendous loss.  There are people who I have gamed with for 7+ years, I would be very sad to find out any of them died.  I still wouldn't expect other people to respect that in a fucking game.  They dont know him, or me, or care how good friends we were, they care about doing whatever they want in the game.

Example:
I'm grouped and some guy in the group is going on and on and on about how his gf dumped him.  Should I be like, lets stop fucking pulling and have a long chat?  No, because I play this game to whack foozles so either pull the next mob or shut the fuck up and get out of my group.  You know you people would feel the same way.  The griefers play WoW to kill others, apparently they take delight in killing others, you put a bunch of targets in one place at one time and tell them in advance you are going to be there.  How are we surprised that they got ganked?  I'm amazed only one guild showed up.  On Archimonde the server would probably crash due to the amount of people there to gank or counter gank.  BECAUSE PEOPLE YOU KNOW, WANT TO FIGHT OR SOMETHING. 

By the way you are now at TOTALLY FUCKED on the hypocrite meter Mr. Haemish.

Mister keep-your-gay-germs-out-of-my-fucking-video-game sees no problem with a goddamn funeral for a RL death being held in contested territory?  How does that work exactly?  Please split the hairs for me on that one.

Not when your INTENTION is to cause real-life hurt feelings.

Are you fucking stupid or just dishonest? It's hard to tell. Probably both.



Wow, you really ARE fucking stupid. How old are you, 10? Here's a friendly word of advice: if you are going to make analogies, have them make sense.

Do you cry when someone takes your monopoly money? No. Do you cry when someone takes your monopoly money and then says "by the way, I'm really happy your mom died last week!"? Maybe. See the difference?

No, you don't, because you are fucking retarded. Horrible analogies are all stupid fucks like yourself can fall back on. Let me summarize your argument for you, sans retarded nonsense:

If you do something that is MEANT to hurt other people, and they are hurt, as was your intention all along, that's 100% their problem.

That IS your point isn't it? Did I leave anything out? Sure looks pretty fucking stupid once you strip out your useless, nonsense analogies. Anybody can make a moronic analogy. It takes some brains to make a good one - brains you clearly lack.

Let me say this one more time, to point out how blatantly stupid your argument is. Please correct me if I'm missing something but I don't think I am:

If you do something that is MEANT to hurt other people, and they are hurt, as was your intention all along, that's 100% their problem.

Brilliant! It makes perfect sense!

Your analysis, like your intelligence, is severely lacking. Go back to the kiddie pool and leave serious discussions for people who graduated high school. Do yourself a favor. You look like a moron.

Do you have any real point other than vomiting "it's just a game" over and over again while sprinkling in nonsensical analogies? No. I thought not.

No, really, it's just common human decency. I don't give two fucks if it was on a PVP server, a PVE server, an RP server. The location doesn't matter (though yes, the people who planned it SHOULD have done it in a safe zone). The location is just an excuse. The truth is, the kinds of people who would plan and organize this kind of crashing of an online funeral (no matter how geeky the shit sounds), would have found a way to fuck it up regardless of the location. Shit, if it was in Ironforge, they could have made an army of gnomes and fucked with the proceedings, it just wouldn't have resulted in player deaths.

It isn't the killing. The killing is just the particular tool they used because that was the easiest tool available. It could have been training of mobs, or tossing AOE effects that shrinks everyone, or just spamming the shit out of the channels. It's the disruption of player events, especially when the players doing the event asked their enemies out of respect to not crash their event.

If it had been you taking the time to organize an event of this kind, you'd be pretty pissed off. The fact that a real life death was involved just makes it seem that much shittier.

We aren't talking about people who just wandered into a PvP zone and killed some people.

We are talking about people who chose a course of action solely to piss off other people. The problem is not that some PvP occurred in a PvP zone. The problem is people went out of their way to fuck with other people and make fun of the recently departed? See the difference? If not you should join your buddy Threash on the short bus. How many times do I have to point out how incredibly fucking stupid you two are?

Trying to make other people feel really bad is the definition of lack of humanity. Try again dumbfuck. Dictionary for the win!

The quality of being humane; benevolence.

Owned! Lol, this is seriously too easy. I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying that planning to disrupt a funeral and targeting the dead person's avatar first to get your jollies does display a lack of benevolence.

You disagree?

If you are going to make insanely stupid arguments, and least cloak them in some psuedo-logic mumbo-jumbo instead of being obviously wrong on a purely factual basis.

Me 1. You 0.

Insert 50 cents to continue.

Edit: When your argument is obliterated by just knowing what words actually mean it might be time to rethink a bit.

If its something that shouldn't hurt you in the first place, then yes it is their fucking fault.  If its something that they voluntarily agreed too and a place voluntarily placed themselves in then yes its fucking their fault.  From over here on the "only fucking retards roll on a pvp server then complain about being killed" side of the window all of you pussies who cant separate being killed in a game from real life are the ones who don't fucking get it.  I'm 28, i have a job where somehow ive managed to pull through and not go on a killing spree yet, a wife who i miraculously manage to not beat, being a sociopath and all, 2 children who thank god ive stopped myself from molesting (yet! they are only 5 and 7 after all!).  I'm not an asshole, a sociopath and i undertand perfectly about online communities and the persons behind the keyboard.  You are still a fucking pussy who thinks being killed on a pvp server is wrong, please die before you infect any more people.

Yes that is all we are talking about.  You are fucking idiot if you think otherwise.

You're right, nobody would have thought anything of it. That kind of behavior was expected.

Ever consider this is why the game was a complete and utter failure?

Enough.

Who the fuck are you to determine what should and shouldn't hurt other people's feelings, especially about the death of a friend? Talk about lack of empathy.

If you are going to call someone a fucking idiot, try not doing it in caveman-speak champ.



Why the sudden hostility there buddy? Can't we all just get along?

The fact that some horrific cow agreed to marry you really doesn't excite me, nor does the existence of your two brain-damaged trolls. For every ugly screwjob in the world there is a hideous Mrs. Ugly Screwjob. (Or what you would call "Mrs. Right") You perfectly understand online communities? Well, you certainly don't perfectly understand logic 101 or the english language now do you?

Can we get back to how your argument, like you and most likely your entire waste-of-oxygen family, is incredibly stupid? Everyone on this board is laughing at your stupidity right now.

Can you state your argument again in simple english? (Since you don't understand the more educated kind)

Let me restate it again for you, if I may. Again, feel free to correct me:


If you do something with the intention of hurting other people, and they are hurt by it, that's their fault. *

* = If Threash thinks you shouldn't have really been hurt by it, even though the entire action was predicated (look it up) on having that effect.



Let's bring this to a merry close, shall we?

There is a point in all this. I appear to have touched a nerve. Time for my ace in the hole:

"It's just a message board."

Why are you all in a huff dude? This is a PvP area. Suck it up. Isn't that your logic? After all, *I* decided that you shouldn't really be offended by what I say here. *I* decided that nobody here should be offended by anything I say. So if you are, that's your problem.

Under your own logic, you are a whiny bitch. Under my logic, I'm an asshole. Funny isn't it?

Although I'd like to think I'm proving a point. Clearly I've gotten under your skin. Is it wrong to repeatedly call you and Hoax idiots, morons, etc? After all the only reason I did it was to piss you two off. Art imitates life.

Maybe the boundary between "real life" and being a keyboard jockey isn't as clear as you'd like to think. Is this board "real life?" You're real, I'm real. Online games are often described as graphical chat. I don't use my real name here and neither do you. Maybe in "real life" I'm a nice person but my online persona Margalis is the true asshole?

The fact that you are all in a huff now with your story about your wife and kids just sabotages your own point. Online stuff is just another form of real life. Why bring your real life family into it if it's not?

When you sign onto a message board or an online game you aren't actually whisked away to some totally separate, fairy tale universe.

("The more you know" music begins to play)

I think I've proven my point. "This is just a game" is no more an argument than "this is just a message board." And while you've advocated the "this is just a game" mentality you certainly haven't practiced it in this thread.

Errrrr, huh?

Why can't we all just maturely agree that WoW attracts a certain level of player maturity and be done with it? That's been patently obvious to me as soon as I hit the CharGen and pulled up a gnome model. Its either for pedophiles or disenfranchised fetal alcohol syndrome victims.

Those who disrupt a virtual funeral should get raped by a car?   :cry:

Its not the death of a friend dumbass, its the part about being killed in a videogame.

NOBODY HAS A PROBLEM WITH THAT PART!

Is this really that hard? Nobody has a problem with the fact that people were killed in a PvP zone! Nobody has a problem with the fact that people are killed ALL THE TIME in PvP zones.

The part people have a problem with was the how and why. In this case it was done to mock the dead, and from what I understand they specifically targeted the dead girl's avatar first just to be super-assholes about it.

Nobody here is saying "wow, man it really takes an asshole to kill someone in a PvP zone!" However it DOES take an asshole to plan a large attack on a funeral and go out of your way to crap all over the memory of someone who just died. It's really not any different than just saying "I'm glad your friend is dead."

Nobody here is saying that you shouldn't be killed in a PvP zone, so stop pretending.

Are you for real? this thread has kept me amused at work the whole day, im not in a huff nor am i getting worked up and this is tons better than reading the oblivion boards and wishing i was playing.  That doesn't mean im going to sit here and take insults without throwing some back asshole.  And the only reason i posted about my wife and kids is because you idiots seem to think anyone who doesnt take videogames as seriously as you do must be some kind of sociopath unable to relate to other people.  I learned english on the internet, personally i feel i deserve a medal for my grammar and spelling.

No what you are saying is that the rules change based on real life events.  I'm simply saying they don't.  The how and why those people where killed don't matter, they where people in a pvp server in a pvp game being killed in a pvp zone, everything else is bullshit.

I feel the need to pontificate further upon how much I hate the people who were having this funeral.  As I said earlier, one tasteful thing to do in the event of a guildmate's death would be to quietly send a nice little card along to their family.  But our friendly pack of catasses couldn't do this, for a number of reasons.

For one, it would have been a pain in the ass.  They would have to get out from in front of the computer, buy a card, and then carefully circulate it by mail so that each of them could sign it.  Christ, that would require every rank-and-file guild member to actually do something, rather than just stand there /tell chatting at a "funeral" for a few minutes.  What's more that quiet, tasteful, and inconvenient offline response wouldn't even be seen by the general public!  After all, what good is mourning if you can't make a server-wide event out of it?  What use is grief if you don't get to ask the entire world at large for a pat on the head?

Self-important fucks.  The righteous indignation they've been given license to suffer probably gives them little hard-ons.  I'll take plain old griefers any day.

IT MAY BE A COMMUNITY, BUT IT IS NOT A WORLD.  TAKE THAT SHIT WHERE IT BELONGS.

Ok..this is just over your head.

Hopefully Hoax will get what I was going for.

I think we have already established they are not that bright.  They were distraught over their friend's death.  Maybe they lack the social skills or experience, compounded with their grief, to come up with such an idea.  But they tried, so I'm willing to give them a nice little pat on the head and send them on their way.

If it is a community, then the attackers should have been willing to show a little respect instead of figuring out the most effective way to be assholes.  Please let us not rehash ten pages of defining what a sociopath is.  We went over this two weeks ago.

I caught this interesting perspective on the whole thing over on Terra Nova:



Maybe they should have organized a battle instead of a funeral. So.. if you died would you want your virtual funeral crashed and syndicated all over the interweb?

Did they have every "right?" Sure they did. (Even without the quotes) People have the right to do a lot of asshole things.

Your quote is a great example of projecting. The author knows very little about the situation and is projecting what they think onto the event, in complete disregard for the facts.

The author may feel it was a sign of respect but the people being attacked did not, nor did the people doing the attacking. It's solely the author's bias.


WTF does that even mean? Why is "metaphor" in quotes? How is attacking people "stepping up"? Wacky.

The stick figures are trapped in their paper world, screaming for deliverance.

lol

I don't think Threash has the capacity to absorb complex ideas, I really don't.

"If it's not black or white, 1 or 0, yes or no....well, it really is, YOU just don't get it." <--- Is this what you're saying?


Stop being a fucking assgoblin douche. Nothing in a game is supposed to mean anything to anyone, huh?

Let me fuck up your raid for 3+ hours. Feeling frustrated? Why, it's just a game?

Let me delete your character? Feeling upset or angry? Why, it's just a game?

This sort of horseshit would fit perfectly with your logic in this thread.

Who are we?  People endowed with the capacity for rational thought and the ability to think critically about the actions of others.

So now everyone's feelings are equally valid?

I feel terrible for the guy who died.  For his friends who put this on - this was just hubris.  They thought that they could have real-life events break down the barriers of a game, and usurp them.  Games don't work that way.

I've only seen one exception: September the 11th.

On that day, if you logged into most admin'd CS servers, every single person was transferred over to the CT side - everyone was just milling about, talking, not really sure what to do.  Nobody wanted to play a terrorist on that day, even with the complete anonymity of the internet and being among total strangers.  Hell, even Goatse changed its message that day to something rather pro-American.

That lasted about 24 hours.

Anything less than that?  The game goes on.

You are not supposed to do any of those things, stealing my account and deleting my char is not the same as killing me in a contested zone.

But it's just a game, so what difference does it make? That's the logic you've been using.

No its not, being killed falls under the rules of the game what you are talking about is cheating.  I dont see whats so difficult to comprehend about that, how did you get that im ok with cheating because i dont think its wrong to kill people in a contested zone no matter the reason?  One falls within the rules of what you can expect from the game, the other does not.

Wha, when did this get undenned I had a post all lined up right when Shockeye smacked the thread.

I haven't read anything between then and now, sorry getting tired of it all anyways.

Look, I dont even know why I care about this, I think I'm just tired of hearing terms like sociopath thrown about whenever we talk about anything related to pvp.  The guys who made the movies were dicks, dicks like SIN, The Regulators and just about every famous pvp+ guild.  That is how you make a name for yourself in pvp really, you hit below the belt and make cool funny movies about it.

Here's the reason I just can't agree with getting distraught over what they did.

This is a game.  I believe in virtual worlds and online communities in MMO's a great deal more then most people around here judging from how I get laughed out of a ton of threads when I talk about player-justice, meaningful content, player content etc.

But you can't make a RL judgement based on a game, unless the person is cheating.  You see cheating deserves car rapage (I did skim the last few posts) I think we can all agree on that.

Being a dick within the rules of the game is just bad sportsmanship.  Does that make you a dick?  Sure does.  Just like Warren Sapp was when he smacked that Packer.  Just like the clown who calls tons of ticky-tacky fouls during a pickup game of hoops at the YMCA, just like Terrell motherfucking Owens.  All dicks, not sociopaths, not similar to the Trenchcoat mafia and certainly not raping people's drunken sisters or any of the other re-fucking-diculous hyperbole we've had in this dumbass thread.


***

That said, I wanted to try to salvage this and see if somehow I could provoke some thought that doesn't suck because I feel bad for my involvement in this mess up to now.

Would you all agree that WoW's very mechanics contributed to this problem?  In the sense that, because horde and alliance cannot communicate with eachother and are kept separate.  There really is no reason to treat the other side with respect.  What consequences are there?  They whine about it on the server boards?  On most pvp servers that is a badge of honor, the people with more whine threads are obviously killing more enemies and therefore are more fearsome in battle or so the common logic seems to often go.  Saying that this was a violation of community ethics ignores the fact that the two sides are separate communities for all intents and purposes.  How can we expect sportsmanship when /emotes are the only method of communication?  When your enemy can never become your friend?

In an FPS community there is typically less and less shittalking the higher up the competition ladder you go.  Because if your clan falls apart you dont want to be known as the guy who talked shit to all the other top tier clans during matches.  But in WoW I can spit on every enemy I see.  With the death penalty being such a fucking joke, even if they make good on their "you camped me now I'll camp you" threats.  Who cares?  If I'm the type of player who gets a rise out of pissing off others, WoW is a paradise my actions can never come back to haunt me.  Because of the complete segregation of the factions.

I'm not trying to make an excuse just wondering if anyone else sees this as a possible weakness to fixed faction systems, which currently seem to be en-vogue because everything WoW has done is and also because otherwise population balance issues become a difficult beast to tame.

*shrug*  I tried...

Technically, Griefing is against policy ("The Rules") also, though it is Rarely, if ever, enforced.

You know what was awesome? On that day I logged in as a terrorist and kept saying "we brought down your towers, now I'm going to kill you" as well as "this is for Allah" and "I'm sending you to hell to join your Jewish banker husband."

All in good fun.


To Hoax:

All I've said is that people who are assholes in games are often assholes in real life. I didn't say anything about sociopaths. If you want to claim that "dick" and "asshole" are wildly different that's a pretty weird position. (Reminds me of Team America...)

Would these people break up a real-life funeral. Probably not. Would they if they could get away with it? Maybe...when there are no rules and consequences people are capable of a lot of nasty things. A lot of people would be a lot more sociopathic than they are if not for annoyances like laws. But that's speculation - I would suggest they would be more prone to be outwardly sociopathic but that isn't my point.

My point is just that they are assholes. Are you agreeing or disagreeing? I can make a real life judgement of someone if they are knowingly fucking with people in real life.

When Tribes:Vengeance beta came out there was a guy who just kept team-killing everyone. Nobody could organize a vote to kick him out because the game was new and nobody really knew how to do that, how to vote, etc. He would travel from server to server ruining the experience for everyone. To me that's no different than purposely annoying people by talking on your phone during a movie. The *only* difference is physical proximity.

I would say that guy was an asshole. He was purposely and knowingly fucking with real life human beings to get his jollies.

Sociopath and being anti-social do fit as desciptors fairly well. Not in the severe "this guy might bring some guns to school and open fire any minute" sense, but in the low-grade sense at least.

In the end the continuous scale of dick, asshole, sociopath, serial killer doesn't really interest me, other than to say that these guys are on that scale somewhere and that isn't a good thing.

Minus points for lack of originality. You could have RP'ed one of the hijackers, entering the afterlife anticipating his 72 virgins only to become seriously bummed when he discovered Allah had trapped him for eternity in an aging FPS, doomed to endlessly run de_dust.


In general, we agree on this. However, it'd vary from person to person - and I'm not seeing your argument as to how behavior in a MMO is valid evidence of that personal variation.

It's fun watching Margalis try to thread-PK everyone.  Good show.

See this here? This tells me you agree with what most of us are saying but you and others are fighting because of a word somebody used. The internet is a funny place sometimes.

o rly? (http://www.afraidyet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1003)


-- Z.
contributing nothing of value to threads since 1378

I pretty much disagree. From their video, it's clear this specific instance was a completely premeditated event involving the co-operation of 3 separate PvP guilds. In fact, you could argue the exact opposite - If there were no forum boards, if the two opposing sides didn't actually have a way - in or out of game - of communicating, this would have never happened. The less complicated view is that they simply wouldn't have known about the funeral. I think it's more interesting though to look at a possible artifact of the communication system that may have contributed to this event.

It seems to me that the language barrier simply makes things worse, becuase the *AZZRAPOR* impulse (that is, to gloat to your enemy, see them driven before you, hear the lamentation of the women) is delayed. Instead of jumping on their corpse and getting it out of their system, this "dickmanship" if you will builds and builds until they have to do something really drastic to get satisfaction - something like ambushing a funeral or other "creative" ways around the language barrier.

A lot of people are juvinile dicks. If you give them their little gloat, I think they'd tend less towards the extreme.

But the death occurred in attempting to commemorate the death of a friend. There are more than just two options here. Somethings should be held sacred, and are by most humans. The getting killed wasn't the problem, it was the disruption of the event as I said earlier. Killing was just the tool, the vehicle of griefing.

Get it through your head. THIS IS NOT ABOUT PVP. THIS IS NOT SOME CRUSADE AGAINST PVP. WE ARE NOT SAYING THERE SHOULD NOT BE PVP.

This is about a particular set of circumstances where the PVP wasn't called for, was disrespectful and was used as a means to hurt other people's feelings. They didn't have to use PVP to be the same kind of assholes. They could have spammed the participants with nekkid level 1 gnomes, they could have flooded the area with trained mobs, they could have done all sorts of non-PVP type things, and I'd have called them asssholes just the same.

It isn't about people getting killed in a PVP zone, it's about disrespectful little fucktarts deliberately attempting to grief people's real life feelings.

This is just another case of blatant selfishness (i.e. griefer's fun >>> anyone else's fun).  If you're an empathic and self-respecting individual, you're tasked with trying to outthink all of the potential ways an asshole can ruin your fun.  The griefer merely needs to consider their own fun and a few ways to rationalize being an ass.


Exactly.

When a great soccer player dies, do they hold a tribute to him on the field in the middle of the match and expect the other team to sit there? Or would that be an unreasonable imposition?

In terms of the 'rules of ettiquette' surrounding them, I don't see a significant difference between RL sports and MMOs.

The concept "the middle of the match" has no meaning when the "match" is perpetual, so I am omitting it from your quote.


Yes.  Yes they do.

We will note also that most competitive sports have the concept of a "time out".

What kind of rock do you live under?  Sporting events and public gatherings get interrupted all the fucking time for paying respect to something.  Fuck, they do it at heavy metal concerts.

And yes you are expected to sit quietly and pay your respects, even better, if you disrupt the proceedings enough you will actually even get arrested.

God damn you suck.

Most analogies are awful and only obfuscate the issue.

Cast in point: every analogy in this thread.

There are no time outs in MMOs.  You can't pause, and there are no refs to halt play, so the analogy with RL sports is moot.

What is strange is that there are very clear rules on game play.  It's a PvP server, just like a soccer field is for soccer.  Some of the players want to change the rules of the game for their own benefit and enjoyment; some others disagree, and don't want to stop playing the game they logged in to play.  What if there were only two people at the funeral?  Just one?  What if two people were RPing something else?  What if someone were AFK dealing with important personal issues?  How can you tell the difference between that, and idling while watching TV, chatting in AIM, etc - but still at the keys?

While it was an asshole-ish thing to do, I do think that they chose one of the worst places to pay their respect.  Hold John Paul II funeral in downtown Baghdad next time, why don't you.  Park your car in the 'hood, and leave the keys in the ignition.  Feel free to use your stolen car as an excuse to soapbox about how mean people are. 

If you watch the video, it is obvious that the aggressors ran quite far (I have no idea about the zones in WoW) to attack the funeral event. The aggressors could have played the PvP part of the game anywhere. In fact, I bet the aggressors bypassed plenty of target rich zones on their way. The fact that they chose to target this specific event is the issue at hand.

For the millioneth time, stop making this about PvP.

edit: 'there'/'their' is not hard but I fucked it up anyway.

The attack on the funeral no longer involved PVP. Instead, the event holders were intelligent enough to hold the funeral in a friendly zone and the aggressors spammed /spit and /fart macros instead.

Does that help?

In this particular instance, the participants told the attackers what they were doing and where they were going to do it. They specically asked not to fuck up this event.



Yes, it was quite stupid. But as you said, that doesn't change the fact that the assholes chose that target specifically to be assholes, which makes them griefers.

Except that didnt happen did it?

Your density is impressive.

Doesn't matter.  People interrupting the proceedings with spit and fart macros still would have been offensive and repugnant.

The mechanic used to interrupt the group of people paying homage to their friend is irrelevant, the fact that they did so at all is what most people have an issue with.

Incorrect.  The match begins when you log in, and ends when you log out.


It's called a "safe zone".

No, it's about what the rules of the game are, and whether the players were within the rules.  It might as well have been chat spam, or just running all over the place (and participants).  Seeing as how this is a PvP server, and the issue at hand is with respect to a group who participated in PvP against the deisres of another who did NOT want to participate in PvP, it seems like it is a fair bit relevant.  Or, if you like, it's like someone starting up a thread on the Politics board about their favorite candy, then getting pissy when someone turns it to a discussion of Bush (or whatever).  It's a politics board - if you don't want to discuss politics post on one of the other boards.  

The PKers did exactly what the server was intended for; to kill people.  It was the RPers who were trying to do something with the game that the game was not intended to support.  Should it?  Maybe, but then, the devs didn't setup a place to support that mode of play.  If they were that interested in it, let players rent an instanced area and moderate entry - whether it be for guild meetings, duels, RP, or whatever else.  Now players can decide on appropriate behavior.

Sure, it may not be against the "rules." The point we've been trying to make is that some assholes can't understand anything but the absolute letter of the rules, and can't understand why sometimes there should be exceptions to these "rules."

These "rules" are also unwritten, by the way. Just like it wasn't written somewhere in the WoW EULA that "Thou shalt not be a cocksniffing douchebag when someone's friend dies" but most humans just understand those rules without it needing to be said.

So, given this example, I have to come down on the side of the "guilty PvPers" here. They are playing the game as designed; they attacked an enemy force. By the way the rules are set up, they are not in the wrong.

From an out-of-game sense they are guilty of poor taste, but the commemorating players would have been better served creating level 1 characters on a PVE server if they wanted protection from attack.

The same sort of thing occurred in DAOC with regularity. Occasionally the players would enforce a truce, occasionally it would be broken. Mythic's stance was always that they would not enforce a "truce", no matter how many players wished it. You can't make rules for a game and then change them for one day without an in-game justification.

You are welcome to come up with whatever "rules" you like.  These "rules" will also lack "enforcement", a key component in any social structure.  The reason people follow notions of common decency IRL have a lot to do with very real social penalties that can be levied against an individual.  The whole reason the "community vs not-community" debate goes in with respect to MMOGs is that these penalties are mostly lacking.  Yes, if people's hearts were filled with strawberry sunshine the world would be a much kinder place.  They're not, so there's no point in crying about it, and the only "rule" that matters is the Rule of Reality; most people suck some of the time, and some people suck most of the time, and where that line gets drawn is entirely subjective.  Want more objectivity?  It isn't going to come from a 'community' with no means to enforce real rules.

In the ridiculous soccer field analogy, the "safe zone" would be someplace outside the stadium.

If I am accurately understanding the jist of this argument, one side is saying, "This is not about PVP; it's about anonymous people on the internet being assholes to one another," while the other says, "these people hosting the funeral could not have been more blatantly fucking stupid and shouldn't receive any sympathy."  PVP aside, I must admit I find it amusing that people on this board are aghast at anonymous people being assholes.

On the internet.

Other than the sympathy part, both those arguments are correct.

These people should receive sympathy, and the attackers shouldn't have been such egregious wastes of space. Aghast isn't the right word. Continually disappointed is more appropriate.

Who gives a fuck what the mechanic is?  There is a way in WoW to suspend competition while remaining logged in, and it's called going to a god damned safe zone.  When you go out into a contested zone, the game is fucking on.

So who here actually disagrees that these guys are assholes?

That's my point and I see a lot of people agreeing with it.

I do agree that official rules against this sort of thing are not a good idea. Just like official rules against lots of annoying things are not a good idea. Most games have a catch-all "do something we don't like and that's bad" rule, and this could fit under that, but so could a ton of other things.

My point is not we need more rules, or that these guys broke some rules. My point is that these guys are assholes. The people holding the funeral may have been dunces but that is a separate issue.

How many people here think these guys truly are not assholes? Anyone?

Because the analogy involved a tribute to a soccer player being held on a soccer field during game time.  If there's no such thing as "not game time" while you're still on the field, the analogy is stupid.  Are we agreed that the analogy is stupid?

The "time out" in MMOs is the forums.  The time-out is not ingame.

Again, your analogy falls apart.  Now you're saying that you can't hold a memorial for a dead soccer player on the field where he played, you have to take it out to the parking lot, or into the locker room.

As has been stated repeatedly, making analogies to real-world competitive sports is silly because the two have very few similarities and a number of very significant differences.

Yeah, like the teams can actually respect one another.

A memorial can be scheduled to take place on a field during the middle of a game with the opposing team taking part.

Sports are "just a game".

There's no way we can expect as much in, er, a game.  Like WoW.

You're focusing on physical spatial relations, which isn't the point of the analogy.  Simply hold the field (or anywhere else for that matter) during a time out or other break in play to be equivalent to the forums, and the analogy works fine.

See, here's the thing: people like to hold memorials for dead people in places that were special to the dead person.  Apparently the particular spot they decided to hold the WoW funeral was the dead person's favorite area, and just happened to be a PvP area as well.

So no, I don't think equating the forums to the field during a time out holds well at all, having seen the WoW forums.  The forums are more like a puddle of vomit under the bleachers.

Maybe you should change your analogy such that "PvP zone" = "a laser printer" and "the forums" = "a mango" and "funeral" = "the number 12".  It'd still be nonsensical, but then at least people would have a harder time arguing with you about it.

A lot of people seem to be trying to argue that what these assholes did (and they Are assholes, no matter how you slice it), while it may not have been "nice", did not actually break any rules.

I refer you to the World of Warcraft Terms of Use. (http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.shtml)

(Yes, most of the secion deals with chat, but this line, as written, isn't expressly concerned with the chat interface)

Also


If you want to be technical (which some people seem to insist on), it looks to me like rules are broken. They may never actually be enforced, but they're there.

You can't seriously be implying that killing someone would be against the rules can you? getting ganked is no harrassment, no matter what you where doing or why they where doing it.  Alliance killing Horde is the whole fucking "essence" of World of Warcraft.  I hope you where joking because trying to argue that pvp is against the rules on a pvp server is just beyond retarded.

Learn2Read, dipshit. Stop trolling.

Stay Classy, New Jersey!

/spit and /fart were specifically put into the game so you could use them. And yet, walking up and /spitting on the avatar of a dead person at their memorial would be classless. Perfectly legal, yes, but classless. And to do so makes you an asshole. Not illegal. Still Assholish.

By the same token: Walking up and knowingly killing the avatar of a dead person at their memorial in front of all their grieving friends? Perfectly legal. Classless. Assholish. Fin.

That's where my participation here ends. If people don't get it now they never will.

QFT.

Calantus wins the thread. Several pages ago.

Wouldn't the appropriate action there be for the players to talk to Blizzard and get Blizzard to make a temporary exception to the rules for them - akin to the soccer stadium making allowances for a player tribute at halftime?

And if Blizzard is unwilling to do so - Well, hasn't the value judgement been made, then?

If my special favorite place was downtown Fallujah, probably not wise to try and party there after I die.

But as has been said before, there is no way to suspend the griefing ability of other players. The method really doesn't matter, what matters is a gaggle of anal fissures got together and decided to grief someone's in-game funeral because they could.

Blizzard being unwilling to specially alter the game code or use paid GMs to prevent people from being assholes for one hour in one particular place doesn't magically make those people not assholes.  It just means Blizzard doesn't make thwarting assholes their highest business priority.  Few companies do.

In a chain of links I managed to reach Raph's page on The Laws of Universe Design (http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/laws.shtml).  In the begining of the social section I came across an interesting one.  So as a rebuttal to "It's just a game, get over it" fans:

I do not expect that to convince anyone to change their mind, but it does show there is a fundamental disconnect between the sides on this issue.  Either it is just a game or it isn't and that is a big chasm to cross.

I'd like to apologize for ever being involved in this stupid thread.  I blame the fact that 90% of the time you people are talking about pvp your being self-righteous fuckheads.  Obviously I became hyper-sensitive or something, my bad.

That said, I was being as unreasonable as Haemish was in the gay guild advertising thread.  So I apologize for my idiotic ramblings.

A combination of boobies (thanks Samwise) and cute (thanks Lantyssa) plus just re-reading some of this stuff has made it clear that I wasn't really ever disagreeing with anyone.  In fact the whole "debate" isn't really one at all.  The only debatable point is what the appropriate level of scorn for this particular act of griefing should be.  Which really is a stupid question to talk about, there are online personalty quizzes that could provide more entertainment.  This isn't VN just let it go folks.

Anyone who says it's "not just a game" has got too much cheetoh powder on his hands. It is just a game. If you can't compartmentalize this sort of shit, then you eventually get worked up over shit like "player funeral ambushed." The players and their communities can jump from one GAME to ANOTHER in the blink of an eye. F13 does it with every game. F13 is a community. A game is a game. We may play a game, but it's certainly not why the community exists. As for a service? Ok, but the service is just the money making format in which they choose to keep the game running. And as for the world. Ok, whatever. That's just masturbatory bullshit. Raph knows damn well that the world is just the format in which he or whoever chooses to present the game.

At the end of the day, you wacked some foozles, beat a boss, got an item, and logged out. From the game. Now, I will grant this - the game exists to facilitate the world, communities and the service. But everything that happens in the game because of the game and through the game makes it part of the game. Like the funeral ambush.

So you're one of those that misses the point then? :-D

Yea, I completely miss the point of these games. I form fake forum communities with people I talk to OUTSIDE of games to make those games more life invading. Huzzah.

Depends how you mean "it's not just a game". If you mean the actual game is more than simply a game... yeah, I'd agree with you there. But often "it's not just a game" is used to shoot down silly arguments relying on the idea that since you are playing a game you can do whatever the hell you want just because "it's just a game". In that sense it IS more than a game, it's a medium for interacting with other people. If you interact with people in a negative way (ie. grief), the fact that the medium happens to be a game is irrelevant.

You play mmog's as a console game.  Other people play mmog's as a chatroom with a 3d interface.  I would argue that you're overcompartmentalizing as you fail to recognize that a portion of the playerbase sees mmog's as more of a social outlet than a game.  If you consider that many people play mmog's more for the social aspects of the game than the in-game mechanics themselves, you'll begin to understand why shit like this pisses people off.

Note: I'm not saying that this event thing pissed me off, it didn't.  I think both parties could have done things to avoid the situation and share blame for different reasons.

Well, which of us is 'right' in how we play the game?  If we automatically defer to the most sensitive player, that means his views take supremacy and are arbitrarily considered 'right'.  So how do we judge?

We judge by having devs, devs that set the game rules and game priorities and the CoC and the EULA and all the rest of that jazz.

They're the arbiters of what the game is and isn't.  I enjoy playing MMOs as a console game with better AI.  If a dev doesn't want me to play it that way, they have every right (and the responsibility) to write that into the CoC.

Maybe the people upset about this shouldn't be playing WoW? You're not just paying for the parts you like - you're paying for the whole thing, warts and all.

There is no "right" way to play.  That's the beauty of the genre.  This also means that situations like this will arise where contrasting playstyles collide.  It's not a black & white issue, but rather a gray area. 

I think that being "upset" is more a reaction of disappointment in human nature.  We are all in control of our actions and have the free will to decide how we will act at any given moment.  The people that enjoy the social aspects of mmog's are far more often disappointed as the people that get their fun at the expense of others often hide behind in-game mechanics as their excuse for being an asshat.

Well, see, Human Beings have these feelings, feelings like mourning over the death of a friend. Human beings generally don't need to be told that cluster bombing a sacred ritual such as a funeral is a bad, hurtful thing to do.

Sociopaths have to be told this, and have to be donkey punched when they ignore it just to get their jollies.

Human societies also have these 'guidelines'.  For instance, most people don't have to be told that a true 'funeral' is something that happens in the real world, and what happens ingame is not.

A MMO 'world' is not a counterpart for the real one, and you cannot simply hold events in them, such as weddings or funerals, that correspond to the sanctity involved.  I wouldn't suggest holding your son's birthday party on a WoW PvP server either, as much as someone would be a dick if they busted up your birthday party in real life.

If RL events can be moved into the MMO space and exist in 'the same way', what's to stop weddings, funerals, birthdays, religious services, etc etc from crowding the game world that was meant for, uh, a game?

Why not, exactly? Because they don't involve flesh? As the techonology for online interaction grows, so does the general public's familiarity and use of it. I'm not saying that they have to be the exact same, I am saying that as player events, they should at least be given some respect.

But again, sociopaths of all types cannot recognize respect for other people, no matter the venue.

It's not about "not recognizing people, no matter the venue", it's about having some venue, in this case, MMOs, where we mutually agree to not recognize other people.  I have no problem with recognizing people as unique and beautiful snowflakes, I just don't want to have to do it in every single venue - hence, why MMOs exist.

What's to stop every single MMO from turning into glorified IRC, then?

Who's to say it isn't that already?

There exists a body of academic work on online communities.  There also exists a portion of the playerbase that sees it this way.  I've always stated that mmogs are little more than chat rooms with a 3d interface and some shiny.  It's all perspective.

That's your fucking problem. Just because you don't want to recognize them in this venue does not mean they aren't there. That's the sociopathic part of it. You just put your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALALALA YOU DON'T EXIST! LALALALA AZZRAP0R!!1!"

That's fucking retarded. It doesn't matter what "venue" it is, IF THE PEOPLE EXIST IN SAID VENUE, YOU HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THEM. You are essentially saying "I don't have to recognize them, but they have to recognize me when I assrape them."

You are a fucking tool.

That would be great if it WAS a mutual recognition.  Obviously it isn't, since there are people treating these games as more than "just a game".  How can you possibly think that there is a mutual agreement not to recognize other people when we have a prime example of people doing EXACTLY that thing by holding this funeral?

I can't tell if he's trolling or just a fucking moron sometimes.


I'm guessing it's both today.

Because the only way to justify such behaviour is to deny anyone else feels differently.

Let me assure you that any twisted, putrid thoughts that bubble up from that sociopathic mind of yours are not mutually agreed upon.

I can't believe that someone is THAT fucking stupid, so I am guessing it is just trolling. Parents were too busy with their ninja careers to pay attention to junior, so he does anything he can for attention.

Either way it is getting really fucking old.

Some MMOs are, but I don't find that fun so I don't play them. ;p


The mutual agreement is the CoC.  Once we enter the game, that's the binding agreement we've settled upon to arbitrate our interactions with one another.

Edit:  The best comparison I'd make is CounterStrike.  When you join a server, there are a set of rules laid down by the server admins (as well as more basic ground rules laid down by the Valve devs) that you're playing within.

I'm sorry if the phrase "mutual agreement" was vague and thus led you all to interperet it as "They like getting azzraped".  Of course people aren't generally a big fan of that - I'm saying they're getting what they signed up for when they put their name on the dotted line, even if they didn't read the proverbial Fine Print.

 

I've yet to see a ToC that states 'you will take nothing in game personally, nor form binding friendships' , which is what you are suggesting.


I guess any form of common sense goes out the window when you try to justify being an asshole.

It doesn't mean that you shouldn't take anything ingame personally - it means that if you do, and that makes you unhappy, it's basically your own doing and you have yourself to blame.  If you form binding friendships in a video game, with someone you've never met, and you get backstabbed using ingame mechanics - whose fault is that?

Has there ever been a funeral successfully held by ships in Eve's 0.0 space who came in unarmed?

I'm not the asshole - the assholes are people who want to ruin MMOs by turning them into some sort of online neighborhood, perhaps to make up for whatever gaping holes are in their social life in their real neighborhood.

Some of us play games to be playing a game, not to be a musclebound stud warrior instead of a fat kid with too much facial hair and a love of anime.  Fuck you very much for trying to burden that experience with all the mental energy sinks involved in forming a community and taking everyone's thoughts and feelings and what have you into account.  If that shit wasn't tiring in the real world, we wouldn't have games like CS or WoW for escapism in the first place.

Ok straw man, you made a statement.
You said we all mutually agree to ignore the fact there are other people in the game, and the rules of normal social interaction dont apply.
You back this up with 'the ToC states it'.
being as 90% of ToC on any MMO is about the rules of interaction with other people, I have to ask.
Are you a pathalogical liar, or just retarded?

Now, please, back up the statement. Find an article in ANY games ToC that speifically states everyone logging in mutually agrees to act as if no other people are there.

Of course, your pathetic ramblings fail at the first hurdle, being as one of the first sections of any ToC is about use of foul and abusive language, to other players no less.

You're an idiot.  The point is not whether people "are" or "aren't" there, the point is whether or not you deal with characters played by other people as you would in RL, or by an alternate 'ruleset'.  That's what the CoC is: It's an alternate ruleset that allows you to set aside the normal rules and mores of human interaction.

You have never read a ToC. I can tell that simply because you beleive it to mean normal rules of human interaction do not apply.
90% of any mmo toc is about human interaction and enforcement of said rules.

If you are correct, and normal interaction doesnt apply, why are there rules about foul and abusive language? They are, just so you know, over and above any language filter (which is the legal requirement for age restrictive content)

People have been calling you a sociopath, which I beleive is incorrect, you are socially retarded however, the clue is in the last sentence , in that you genuinely beleive normal rules of human interaction can ever, in any circumstance, be forgotten , when dealing with other people.

Perhaps it is the fault of the backstabber, since he actually makes the effort to stab someone in the back, as opposed to the person who wasn't acting like a complete and total fucking cuntlick.

I mean, if your car was stolen in real life, it's your fault for drving a car, right? Or parking that car in the mall parking lot? BEING THE VICTIM IS FUN!

I cannot express in words just how fucking retarded you are.

having read a few of his diatribes, and responses to various confrontations on this board, i am of the opinion he isn't that retarded.
He is being clever in trying to provoke these reactions, I would guess at some final year college student doing a thesis on internet community within games, or forums, or the like.
Especially as he seems to be posting on an mmo forum, without actually playing any mmo's at all, aside from AC1 of course.

I am of the opinion even in the world we have today, someone so blatantly antisocial would not survive through puberty with enough limbs to operate a keyboard.

Huh?  Where is the binding agreement that says "You will not treat people on this game as real people, and they won't treat you as real people either."?  I must have missed that, because I don't think I've ever seen it in any terms.

Because whoever wrote the CoC deemed them to be rules worth including?  This isn't rocket science.  Of course, for PvP worlds, many games loosen the restriction on foul and abusive language.  Why do you think that is?


What the fuck do you think sadomasochism is?  It's people setting aside normal rules of human interaction (i.e. don't hurt one another) by mutual agreement (i.e. use a 'safe word' to back out).  That's what MMOs are, though on a much lesser scale; tapping into the lesser-but-still-present sadomasochistic impulses (usually more sadistic than masochistic) within each of us by mutual agreement (the CoC) for mutual enjoyment (PvP yay).  Your 'safe word' is that you can exit the game whenever the fuck you like.

What's boxing?  The normal rules of human interaction don't involve punching people in the face.

What's poker?  The normal rules of human interaction don't involve taking someone else's money.

What's spin the bottle?  The normal rules of human interaction (usually) don't involve kissing random strangers.

Games are, and always have been, about temporarily circumventing the laws of human interaction according to a fixed set of rules.

If you clean out your buddy at poker, do you hand all the money back to him at the end?

"But what if losing all that money at poker made him really upset?"

Well, you try to approach that proactively - if you think your buddy is the type of person who'll be upset by that kind of thing, you try and convince him not to play poker, or even refuse to play with him.  But what if it's someone you don't know getting upset at you over PartyPoker for handing them a bad beat that busted them for lots of money?  Do you still have the same responsibility to counsel them on whether or not they should be gambling, or is that the job of their friends, someone who has greater proximity to them?

Games are all about facilitating abnormal, atypical human interaction in some way or another - all games, to a degree, are about escapism.  Some games are focused on the physical aspect, such as boxing, others on the mental aspect, such as poker, still others on getting people to do things their feelings wouldn't normally dictate, such as spin the bottle.

It comes with the territory.

He has over 7,500 posts at the vault stretching back five years and has apparently been banned from other boards.   As terrifying as it may seem - this really is his true self shining through.  People who are only pretending to be retarded couldn't come up with the shit he does, you need the genuine article.

But you claim we are all mutually agreed 'you will not treat people on this game as real people, and they won't treat you as real people either.'. That was your statement. You claim the ToC back you up.
Now a section you admit refers specifically to how you treat other people.If we have all agreed that we wont treat people as real , the language entry uis pointless.
Are you admitting you lied, or just inept at covering your crassness?

You still havent shown the specific part of a ToC that states we wont treat people as real I notice.



You are still implying the ToC , as you stated 'implies you will not treat people on this game as real people, and they won't treat you as real people either.'

That is fallacy.

The rest is just the ravings of a troll/psychotically disturbed person.
delete as applicable.

Terrifying... that I treat games as games, and not as some crazy reflection of real life?

Sometimes, people I know in RL might happen by when I'm playing a MMO.  "What are you up to?" they ask. "Killing people in a video game", I reply.  "Oh, fun."

The real world seriously does not give a shit about what people do or don't do in MMOs in the same hysterical way that you do.  There is a good reason for that - the same reason that if you tell someone you won a bunch of money in poker, they don't ask you how the person you took it from felt about it.


I really hope you didn't graduate from a college with a course in formal logic, because this would be a serious disgrace to their teaching abilities.

A CoC that tells us we don't have to treat people as we would in the real world does not preclude that selfsame CoC establishing many of the same rules as in the real world.

It's a modified ruleset - taking the basic rules of the real world and adding some here, subtracting some there, as the devs see fit.

Nowhere is it implied that it's mutually exclusive, that there's some sort of dichotomy where either all the rules of real world interpersonal interaction apply or none of them do.  Which ones apply?  Whichever ones the devs say so.

Please do humanity a favor and sterilize yourself.

The fallacy is , of course, the ToC doesnt say 'you will not treat people on this game as real people, and they won't treat you as real people either'

You can try to insult me all you want, it still wont change the fact no MMO ToC EVER has said that.

My initial point about the language content is those sections of a ToC refer specifically to the 'real person' . That the ToC itself refers to the 'real person' somewhat invalidates your comments.

Uh, it doesn't have to.  What it says is the extent of the rules.  It establishes a framework.  If that framework makes something possible, then there you have it.  The CoC is there to supercede normal rules of interpersonal interaction.

Incorrect. You are projecting a meaning into any given ToC that doesn't exist to justify your asshole behaviour.

You specifically said , earlier in this thread , we all , mutually agree'to not treat people on this game as real people, and they won't treat you as real people either'

You CLAIM the ToC actually enforces that.

That is fallacy.

It enforces it by not setting penalties for doing otherwise.  Videogames are almost like authoritarian universes; you're living in someone else's world, and they have the capacity to decide what you can and can't do.

Anything that the devs want to mandate, they can.  Case in point: Toontown - you could build WoW with a Toontown-like chat system if you really wanted to.

If it supercedes the rules, then only the bits it specifically states are changed are different than RL norms.  Which means most games expect their users to follow the norms of social interaction.

Again, you are just projecting the meaning you need to justify behaviour.

For me to 'to not treat people on this game as real people, and they won't treat you as real people either' , it has to specifically tell me not to treat people as real. Not by insinuation.

By your argument here, unless it specifically tells me not to treat people as real, the Devs haven't covered that, so I can.
You argument again falls down at this point, seeing as you stated we all mutually agreed to act this way.

We didn't.
You just need to believe we did to justify yourself.

I don't think that's what it means; I think what it means is that anything it doesn't box you in on is fair game.

It's like Monopoly; anything the rules don't tell you not to negotiate a deal over, you can.

What this really boils down to is the formal definition of a game - what the 'rules of a game' entail, and what is and isn't outside of the game's scope.  The fact that the games we're talking about are MMOs is relatively incidental - we could just as well be talking about Monopoly.

"Why did you hack his account and delete his characters?"

"Why did he let me hack him?"


"Why did you scam this player?"

"Why did he let me scam him.  I am role-playing a scamp.  I add excitement to transactions.  There is no specific rule against the exact method I used to bypass this particular aspect of the secure trade window.  I talked him into placing it on the ground.  There is no rule against talking him into placing his items on the ground."


"You are being terminated for an offensive name."

"Why did the game allow me to name myself that?"


"You are being banned for being an asshole to the rest of the playerbase."

"Why did the game allow me to be an asshole?  This is unfair."


I reckon it is naive for people to expect other people to be reasonably decent to each other.  You want open ended systems, but when you look at the rules from that viewpoint, YOU ARE the reason that open ended systems are not being created.

This game has a great ToS/Policy, Kingdom of Loathing - Policies (http://www.kingdomofloathing.com/static.php?id=policy) too bad it cannot be used for mainstream games.

Someone around here said a good while ago "We can't have nice things."  Rings true.

I would not want to play Monopoly with you either.

I would relish the chance. The second he opened his smarmy know it all college boy yap I could cram my fist down it.

Oh please, you know little shits like that don't do this stuff in Real Life. They're dicks online as overcompensation for their chronic fear and insecurity in real life. It's overcompensation, pure and simple.

Allow me to respond to your scenarios one by one, since they're all different and require different responses.


We dealt with this already in the SWG thread.  A player's account is their real life possession - you're violating someone's expectation of property rights in RL, which is genuinely sociopathic.  I've known a few people in RL who scammed accounts, selling them on EBay and then using the original billing info to recall them - and without exception, I can say that they were genuine sociopaths.  They also usually stopped pretty quickly when you contacted their parents and let them know what their kids were up to.


Yes.


Rules against offensive naming are generally in the CoC.  If you violate that, you've violated the rules of the game, and you'll be punished accordingly.


If it's in the CoC not to be an asshole, then you shouldn't be one.

I think this sums it all up. 

If you need to be told to not be an asshole to other people, then anything I/we say here is pointless.

If I ever have influence on the Terms and Conditions of a game that is going to be one of my first ones.

"Welcome to the Lan Online Social Experience Realm.  We have certain expectations to provide our customers with a fun and satisfying experience.  Not following these rules may result in a suspension or ban of your account.  Remember, play nice.

1.  No offensive names.

2.  Don't be an asshole.

3.  If you are, or resemble, Telemediocrity then get the fuck out.  (That one is for you, Lum.)

4.  ..."

He's also stated on those now-banned-from-boards that he was specifically trolling for sport.

Personally, I respond to him when there's something worth responding to that adds value to the thread, and ignore him when he's blatantly trolling for attention. Your mileage may vary.

Well, I'd certainly have this conversation with you in real life.

Though I think it's ironic that the people who consider me a 'sociopath' for how I'd play a harmless videogame are talking about threatening RL violence for my opinions as if it's socially acceptable behavior.

Just ban him and have done with it.

The implication isn't that they are relishing the opportunity to punch you (I would guess) in so much as showing that when there are real-world possible reactions to acting like a complete jackass in a game, people tend not to act like complete jackasses.

When playing said Monopoly game, I highly doubt that you would steal someone's money while they got up to answer the phone, and then when called on it say that there was nothing in the rules against it, and then proceed to throw game pieces around the room at random while eating the hotels.

Yet when online, you aver that this sort of behavior is perfectly acceptable, because people online just don't exist for you - whereas more correctly it's that you are insulated from the consequences of your actions.

The fact that your actions lack consequence is not a feature of the medium, it is a failure of the game.

No reason we can't do both  :-D

Great.  Now I'm going to be randomly chuckling all day and people are going to look at me funny.

It's the Air Bud Clause.  It lets you get away with anything, provided it's so stupid that nobody bothered to explicitly forbid it.

"Nothing in the rulebook says a dog can't play basketball!"

Well personally I found the video and the entire episode to be hilarious! Good job to the horde!  :evil:

Alliance was doing the ganking.  Damn noob.

Just to poke a hole through the CS example on the previous page -

Grefiers are usually Booted by the admins. Sure, being able to TK, or run around and delay the game are "part of the rules", but it's fucking stupid. As such, most people who pull this shit are booted from the server if the admins give a shit at all.

Stupid Fucking Example.

Try again, chucklefuck.

pseudo-edit: Also, your example about people setting aside normal rules of behavior? That's Consensual - you consent to box someone, or put up money in poker, or whatever.

Do you actually read the shit you post, or does it just continue to flow out of that brain of yours at a rate reminiscent of a bad case of dysentery?

There are good cases of dysentery? That is like having a wee touch of the AIDS.

More like being halfway between HIV- and HIV+.

Really? The video was pretty blurry but it looked like the gank squad was running out of a horde town and toward an alliance area (Loch Modan or Dun Morogh).
Guess I could be wrong though....will have to watch it again.

Looked like winterspring to me... Contested zone...

yeah might have been. Could you see what town they left from though? Like I said the move version I saw on the net is really blury.

Its the alliance town in NW felwood....not sure the name, never played Alli that high....

Okay I know the one you are talking about! No wonder I didnt recognize it...never spent that much time in Felwood. Thanks for the info and the correction!

Ugh.

Look some things in life are predictable and easily avoidable.  When someone bucks the predictability and determines not to avoid the avoidable it may not be "deserved" but it's certainly THEIR decision and THEY need to accept SOME accountability.

In this case if someone wants to buck chance, to Give The World A Chance To Redeem Itself they really honestly cannot claim complete ignorance when the world lets them down.  Is it a form of bravery?  Probably.  But it's also passive self-destructive hostility at its seamiest - a desire to control the world around them, to exercise free will, without accepting the consequences.

To play the martyr.

There are some things I just know won't get the result I want.  I can claim self-righteousness by bucking reality.  But in the end the person who took the chance was me - Actions Have Consequences.  It does NOT make it right, pretty, or anything even remotely assuming Perfection.  But I'm hardly off the hook just because I made a "calculated" decision that flies in the face of all expectation.

I'm not excusing.  I'm not "blaming the victim".  I'm simply observing ALL actions have consequences and my making a poor decision just because the backdrop is In The Name Of The Angels does not resolve ANY obligation I have to act responsibly.

What's going through my mind right now is not a game scenario.  It's the Duke U./ la crosse issue.  Damn I feel for that girl.  I wish I could reverse time for her.  But in the end it never occurs to me to recommend to my 19 year old daughter she go earn some quick dollars with a known bunch of jock fuckups by closeting herself in their house late at night where even just arguing taxi fare becomes a 'he said / she said' thing.

Justified? No.  Deserved? No. Something fairly predictable?

Go figure.

This is just an in-game event.  But while the stakes are lower the reasoning process is the same.

Poco,

Newton's Third Law and Karma all rolled into one?

Hate to tell you this but you ARE blaming the victim. Sure, it's a situation she and they should not have put themselves in; that's where the "this was a stupid idea" part came into it. But in the end, it isn't her/their fault that some other people cannot act like human beings. These people didn't ASK to be raped/assraped, and they were. For whatever bad judgement the victim had in this instance, it is still the responsibility of the attackers to be decent human beings and not total cockmonkeys. Just saying "You should have expected it" isn't enough. It isn't the attacker's responsibility to teach the idiots a lesson, it's their responsibiilty to have a little goddamn human decency and not fuck up a funeral just because they can.

What gets me in situations like this is the notion that there must be A guilty party.  As in, only one person/group can be accountable, and the only discussion is which participant that might be. 

No, they are both accountable. It just so happens that the funeral party got kicked in the junk for being stupid enough to host a player's RL funeral in a PVP+ zone, while the people who acted like total subhuman douchebags got their rocks off and didn't get punished for it. Karma smacked the stupids upside the head, but we have to wait a bit longer for the antisocial retards to get their comeuppance, a comeuppance we'll never see.

Both certainly have some responsibility, however, I defy anyone to tell me that having some little asshole saying 'glad the bitch died' in game at the funeral and later on forums is anyones fault but the asshole.

If Karma got its revenge against assholes, real estate would be very cheap.

When did Blizzard install a Karma System in WOW?

Like I said I think the whole episode was rather amusing.

Isn't it just a matter of taste here though? That's how I look at it. It was in awful bad taste to attack a funeral. But then, the rules of online life haven't really been decided yet. It wasn't a real funeral and the avatar (of the player who died) is just a shell. It's 1s and 0s. But the avatars, lined up on a beach, in the eyes of the raiding party, are experience, honor points, and loots. Now, as for karma - despite me finding the situation funny and something of an icon of online gaming - doesn't the fact that they have enough time to organize this sort of shit prove that they've already gotten their comeuppance. They're obviously not breeding. I don't think anyone with kids or even a real girlfriend would have the balls to participate in something this heineous. That all said, I stand by my original statement - shouldn't have had it in a contested zone.

And that's all it came down too.

They made themselves targets and the asshole quotient in WoW is through the roof. So, shocking - not quite. Bad taste - definately. Happen again? Assuredly. 7 Million people in WoW, you could probably ween real statistics by running a census. Births, deaths, weddings, average income, etc. At the end of the day, I'd rather them be assholes online and not leave the house. It's bad enough that I have to make smalltalk with people about WoW since everyone plays the fucking thing. Though those scenes usually end with, "that's great, someone stole your cloudsong, now shut the fuck up and let me finish peeing."

You are aware that a RL funeral is not for the dear departed but for the people he leaves behind? So the online funeral had exactly the same relevance as a RL one. The thing at the funeral is always only an empty shell.

That wasn't my point. Let's make it more clear - if I died and a bunch of my guildmates in whatever MMORPG I happened to be playing held a funeral in a PvP+ zone, I'd curse them with gankage from beyond the grave. And then I'd try and find out which one of the guild members took my stuff.

That's an interesting permadeath mechanic though. In game will generator. You tag things to be left to certain people in the event that you die too many times and get hit with permadeath. Upon dying, you have to go to an office to pick up the dearly departeds belongings. Hm.

Anyway, as for real life funerals - the funeral is very much about the person who died. The "party"/"social gathering"/wake that popped into existance whenever in history for after the funeral is the coping mechanism for the people the departed left behind. Like I said, at my funeral, I want the people remaining to be celebrating MY life. At the party afterwards, I want them drinking and getting crazy because it's what I would have wanted - it's the ultimate coping mechanism.

If people are doing the same thing in a fucking game, re-read paragraph one. I wish gankage upon them. I'm not sure why, but the entire fucking thing seems terribly tacky to me. For most of the folks on f13, if I were to get hit be a meteor or a piece of Jupiter broke off and landed on my house, I'd want nothing more than for people to knock a beer back for me - if they even want to do that. I do Not want them logging into my account into Star Wars Galaxies and throwing a party at an outpost on Yavin 4. And now I realize it - online games, in the big scheme of things - mean nothing to me. I can toss them aside. They are unimportant. The moment I see folks taking them this seriously I can't help but feel sorry for them. But since I don't really do empathy well, I can only look at the raiding party, and then back at the funeral party and say "zing. predictable."

Fair point. On the other hand, as evil as that sounds. I'd rather have those people on my MMORPG-funeral than at my RL one. I really wouldn't now how my dear mother would react to some sob story of how I was the best healer evar and bestest friend because I helped camp some shit. But I know after my father was done with them they would need a few more graves...

You're not right.  The last thing the funeral is about is about the person who died.

Oh, and you can sleep well knowing that at your Funeral, people really actually won't give much of a toss about your wants.  Because they just fucking planted you.

I'm planning my Funeral around that basis.  I want Someone, Anyone, to give my wife a quick one behind the church organ.  Because life goes on.

Queue forms to the left.

To be fair, if I don't outlive my parents, they're going to hear things a lot more boring than that.


Ever met a Jew, chief? Our funerals are very much about the person who died. Like I said above, the shit afterwards is about the people. Whether I agree or disagree is irrelavant. Odds are the people who plan my funeral will plan it that way. But hey, if you want someone banging your wife while the priest or whoever says their thing, that's cool with me.

You have to realize, I don't give a shit what goes on at my funeral, I'm 24. People my age don't think about stuff like that. The only perspective we have in a conversation like this is from experience. And my experiences show me 3 4 5 things: don't have a funeral in a contested zone, don't steal the loots after people are buried, never get involved in a land war in Asia, never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line, and nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

You're an angry bastard, Ironwood, but if I'm ever in errrr uhhh, ok, that's not likely. If you're ever in Phoenix or somewhere reasonably close, I need to buy you a beer. I'll even let you tell me those stories about 'nam.

I hear what you're saying (and yes, I'm all about the friends of Jews) but you're still not right.

We can dress it up as much as we want, but a Funeral is not about the guy in the ground.  It's about the guys standing around wondering where their friend went.

If it was about the guy in the ground, we wouldn't care.

Incidentally, I am in fine mood today and not angry at all.  I don't think I've come across well in any post I've ever written ever.

I don't care about this in game thing, because they're all idiots.  I am naturally cynical about anyone having a tragedy in a game because I usually am the first person to ask 'and where do you want my gold donations to go ?  Oh, right, fuck off.'  There's too much made up shit on the net for me to take anyone seriously.

However, I have now been to many Funerals, 4 of which were under tragic, tragic personal circumstances* and it's NEVER been about the guy in the ground no matter how much it gets dressed up.  Sure, we all miss them and remember them, but HE doesn't care.  About anything.  Ever again.

Not arguing, not fighting, not caring, btw.  It's just one of those facts of life thingies for me.


* 1 - Niece Died during CB
   2 - Best friend just dropped at 35 leaving a pregnant wife and 7 daughter.  This happens in Scotland A LOT.
   3 - Father in Law succumbed to Chronic depression and hung himself.  It's a disease, don't let anyone tell you different.
   4 - Grandfather passed away.  While this was the most normal, he went like a child, mindless and ravaged by Alzhiemers.

I just watched this yesterday, and while I realize that people got their feelings hurt and that some people are dicks, I also realize as has been pointed out many times that holding a funeral in an open PvP zone wasn't exactly the smartest thing to do.  Had I been a friend/guildmate of the deceased or other attendee of the funeral, I'd be pissed.  As it is, I found watching the video to be funny.

Mel Brooks said it best... "Tragedy is when I cut my finger.  Comedy is when you walk into an open sewer and die."

Funerals are about the person who died, but are for the people who remain alive.

If one day my lovely wife had to come on this board and tell all you fuckers that I'd died, I would hope you would remain respectful. I'd hope the cockknobs that I did not get on with in Internet life like SirBruce or Telemediocrity would at the very least have enough respect for my thoughts on the Internet as they would have of my cold, lifeless body in the ground. I'd hope they would respect what accomplishments I have made, and would respect me as an intellectual enemy who always gave them a good fight.

And if for no other goddamn, fucking reason than that my wife and friend would be fucking distraught and would not want any more fucking grief added to her misery.

See, funerals may not be FOR me, but they ARE for my survivors. Which in the case of this board, or whatever MMOG guild I was in, would be people online who I may not have met in the flesh. And I would hope at the very least people like Wayabvpar and Signe and Ironwood would be a little bit sad at my passing, if for no other reason than they would miss me calling someone a crotchpheasant.

We are who we meet. We are the bonds and relationships and antagonisms and cockups of all the other people we've interacted with on this planet. And whether there is or is not an afterlife, or whether the shell we stick in the cold, cold ground is the final end or not, we'll never be that particular person again. EVER. The memories of our descendents are all that will ever be of that person again. And pissing on that memory just for the giggles, that's subhuman, no matter what venue it's in.

When you are young and don't have anyone depending on you, it's easy to dismiss that. When you have to think about the people who will be left behind, it should never be that easy a thing to dismiss.

Yeah, as has been said before, holding the funeral in an ostensible war zone was stupid. But no matter how stupid it was, disrupting it knowingly? That was just wrong.

Which is all fine until we find out that your 'wife' PopTart is actually you just posting that you've died so that 'she' can siphon money into a paypal account 'to help with the funeral' in barbadoes.

:)

Warning timeslip (http://archive.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/11/21/virtual_suicide/index.html)

Damn, you've tipped to my cunning plan! CURSES!

Interesting Link Mr. Parker

One line of it:

Richard Garriot, the creator of Ultima Online, was once visited by a naked fan who pulled out a gun and took a shot at him.

Must have been a Blackthorn fan.

I don't even know where he pulled that gun out if he was naked.

I know where it was. But I'm not telling. Let's just say that it was in a PvP+ zone.

Giggle.

Things like that are funny, until you someone you've seen in-game fakes their real death.

Then its extremely funny.

I remember the days of Lum the Mad, that popular Everquest fan site.  Those were good times.

I remember the thread, full of poetry and song lyrics.

Any Scotsman that spells "queue" correctly deserves respect.

(http://home.debitel.net/user/maik/private/pict/Macallen-Single-Highland-Malt-W0075A.jpg)

Schild,

PvP zone.................... That was damm funny, my monitor is now coated with Wild Cherry Pepsi thanks to you.