f13.net

Katrina is looking to smash New Orleans and the Gulf Coast to pieces. 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/hurricane.katrina/

Oil has gone up to record high as of 1945 EST, rising 4 dollars a barrel to over 70 dollars per.  This is expected to get worse (IE top your tank out tonight).  I hope the disaster is not as bad as studies fear; I will try and dig up the one done by a professor down there who states New Orleans will become a cesspool of toxic waste if something like this was to hit. 

(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Video/050828/n_katrina_update10a_050828.thumb.jpg)

Seems the National Weather Service has no hope for the city.

Good luck Haemish, hope you escape any harm and damage.

Here (http://weather.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/iwszone?Sites=:laz069) is a link to that message.  It'd definitely scary.  Especially this part...

That could certainly put a crimp in the plans of thousands of drunkards if the damage is bad enough....

Mardi Gras is in October or something, right?

I hope it's all a fluke, and turns out to have, at the most, category 3 like effects (fat chance, I know..). However, I can't believe there are actually people sitting around in these cities, deciding to "ride it out".

Considering that most of New Orleans will be gone by tomorrow afternoon or under toxic sewage, yes,  I would say that Mardi Gras will be a bust for Bourbon Street.  I am going to see if the Military needs volunteers to re-activate for clean up activities tomorrow; not sure how that program works exactly.  


(http://hosted.ap.org/photos/F/FLAN10708282159-small.jpg)

Here's one that was dug-up by an Orleans inhabitant over at Corp.

http://www.weather.com/newscenter/specialreports/hurricanes/vulnerablecities/neworleans.html

Dismal picture indeed. Good news that floating corpses won't be a concern... unless of course those pumps become useless like the article mentions not more than 5 paragraphs above that section.  Yay editing.


 
You mean the celebration of excess before the purification of soul by abstensia during Lent, culminating in "Fat Tuesday" (AKA Mardi Gras in French) the day before Ash Wednesday?  Yeah, sure, October.

National Weather Service announcement

http://weather.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/iwszone?Sites=:laz069

EXTREMELY DANGEROUS HURRICANE KATRINA CONTINUES TO APPROACH THE
   MISSISSIPPI RIVER DELTA

DEVASTATING DAMAGE EXPECTED

MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER. AT
LEAST ONE HALF OF WELL CONSTRUCTED HOMES WILL HAVE ROOF AND WALL
FAILURE. ALL GABLED ROOFS WILL FAIL...LEAVING THOSE HOMES SEVERELY
DAMAGED OR DESTROYED.

THE MAJORITY OF INDUSTRIAL BUILDINGS WILL BECOME NON FUNCTIONAL.
PARTIAL TO COMPLETE WALL AND ROOF FAILURE IS EXPECTED. ALL WOOD
FRAMED LOW RISING APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL BE DESTROYED. CONCRETE
BLOCK LOW RISE APARTMENTS WILL SUSTAIN MAJOR DAMAGE...INCLUDING SOME
WALL AND ROOF FAILURE.

HIGH RISE OFFICE AND APARTMENT BUILDINGS WILL SWAY DANGEROUSLY...A
FEW TO THE POINT OF TOTAL COLLAPSE. ALL WINDOWS WILL BLOW OUT.

AIRBORNE DEBRIS WILL BE WIDESPREAD...AND MAY INCLUDE HEAVY ITEMS SUCH
AS HOUSEHOLD APPLIANCES AND EVEN LIGHT VEHICLES. SPORT UTILITY
VEHICLES AND LIGHT TRUCKS WILL BE MOVED. THE BLOWN DEBRIS WILL CREATE
ADDITIONAL DESTRUCTION. PERSONS...PETS...AND LIVESTOCK EXPOSED TO THE
WINDS WILL FACE CERTAIN DEATH IF STRUCK.

POWER OUTAGES WILL LAST FOR WEEKS...AS MOST POWER POLES WILL BE DOWN
AND TRANSFORMERS DESTROYED. WATER SHORTAGES WILL MAKE HUMAN SUFFERING
INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS.

THE VAST MAJORITY OF NATIVE TREES WILL BE SNAPPED OR UPROOTED. ONLY
THE HEARTIEST WILL REMAIN STANDING...BUT BE TOTALLY DEFOLIATED. FEW
CROPS WILL REMAIN. LIVESTOCK LEFT EXPOSED TO THE WINDS WILL BE
KILLED.

AN INLAND HURRICANE WIND WATCH IS ISSUED WHEN SUSTAINED WINDS NEAR
HURRICANE FORCE...OR FREQUENT GUSTS AT OR ABOVE HURRICANE FORCE...ARE
POSSIBLE WITHIN THE NEXT 24 TO 36 HOURS.

Stay safe everybody that's down there.

Edit: fixed grammar

Just to lighten things up before the horrors begin to sink in, here is a video clip of Fox News accidently saying shit.

http://media.putfile.com/foxnews

Great. The southern coast of the US gets utterly destroyed, and the rest of the US's economy gets kicked into the shitter with $4 gas.

Let's just hope the news over-played the potential of the storm like they always do.

edit: If you want to watch a stream of a local news channel in that area, try here.

http://www.wwltv.com/cgi-bin/bi/video/makeadplaylist.pl?title=beloint_khou&live=yes

My long time business partner (prior to me going to GG) is from New Orleans. I tried to call him early today to see if he needed anything during his evac, and to wish him and his family safety. As of 3 PM Pacific Time, all cell phone service was down, and the storm was still 225 miles away.

I was in Fort Walton Beach during Hurricane Opal and it flat out sucked, but it wasn't even near what this one looks like....going to be a bad one unfortunately :(

Good luck to all those in the Southern States.

Would be very sad to see a city like New Orleans in ruin (any city for that matter actually), so I hope Katrina will be a nice girl and won't do her worst.

Just for god's sake, don't suggest that she might be on her period.  That always just makes things worse.

Seriously, be careful folks.  Take care of yourselves, come out of it in one piece.

I just found out how bad it was going to be before going to bed.  (Was trying to rewrite Wizkids' collectible Pirates game into something that doesn't blow ass and had the TV off.)

The mere thought of it being that bad is.. I dunno.. fuck.  And I am so broke I probably won't be able to donate anything to help in the sure to be needed relief efforts I don't think.  Im just not sure.

But the thought of all those lives destroyed and all that history wiped out..  And the thought of people like Fred Phelps who will probably dance all over the devastation as a way to be even bigger gutter slime.. 

Its making me terribly sad and furious all at the same time.

A recent report dropped it from a 5 to a 4, but that's still gonna cause serious devastation.  150 mile an hour winds are no small matter. 

I just hope everyone makes it out ok and maybe it won't cause as much devastation as is being forecasted.

Good luck to everyone in the affected area, particularly in coastal LA, MS and AL.

We're only getting the edge of it, but wind's already picking up and throwing things like tree limbs left over from Dennis and random lawn furniture around.

I hope that NO and the surrounding area fares better than the NHC is expecting.  The downgrade to a Cat4 and general weakening trend are good things, but...

Been watching the news for the last hour and a half. Power is out now in at least parts of New Orleans. It also sounds the drainage/pumping system can no longer keep up with the rain. :-(

Edit (4:37 AM PDT): They just said that it's still drifting to the east which means the brunt of the winds (the worst winds are apparently in the NE quadrant of the hurricane) may miss the lake and the storm surge may not be a worst case scenario.

Edit 2 (5:44 AM PDT): People are sounding pretty confident now that New Orleans dodged the worst case scenario even though it's still 50 miles or so to the South/Southeast. Apparently the hurricane would've had to have been about 100 miles west of where it is now for the worst possible storm surge to have occurred.

Edit 3 (6:27 AM PDT): Part of the roof of the Superdome where thousands of people are sheltered has peeled off. It now looks like Biloxi is in the direct path of Katrina.

Edit 4 (6:51 AM PDT): Unconfirmed report of a levee breach in NO.

Hope everyone in the area is safe.

What a wonderful little quote from CNN...

""So, we're looking at a bowl full of highly contaminated water with contaminated air flowing around and, literally, very few places for anybody to go where they'll be safe."

He went further.

"So, imagine you're the poor person who decides not to evacuate: Your house will disintegrate around you. The best you'll be able to do is hang on to a light pole, and while you're hanging on, the fire ants from all the mounds -- of which there is two per yard on average -- will clamber up that same pole. And, eventually, the fire ants will win." (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/08/28/katrina.doomsday/index.html)

Wow.  Praise the Goddess that the hurricane hit farther east then originally expected.  Poor Biloxi :(

Looks like the tornado zone is closing in on the old homestead.  Going to see about skipping out of work early.


Wrong festival.
(http://www.guzzlingcakes.com/archives/images/lederhosen.jpg)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050829/ap_on_re_us/katrina_superdome

Haemish is ok, apparently the worst he and spt are going to get hit with is 60-80mph winds. I'll keep everyone updated as he has Zero power.

How are they doing down there?

I would have flown a kite.








On a long string from a very safe area.

Best to tie that string to something, it'll cut your arm pretty well.  I speak from experience there.  Kids do dumb things.

I'll talk to him again in the morning, but as of now, A OK.

:thumbs_up:

Haem is alive and well. Estimated time without power is 1-3 weeks. Only damage to his house was ripped off shingles. He said the only way it could get worse was if every appliance in his house shocked him with an SB.EXE when he touched it. He is, however, going insane without games to play.

Holy shit. I get pissy if my power is off for 1-3 HOURS. That sucks serious balls.

Let us know if there is anything they need.

If I had a battery powered GBA it would have already been sent with copious games. Unfortunately I got rid of that, my gamegear and a bunch of other battery powered gaming stuff a long time ago. At this very moment, lithium ion has been made obsolete.

The stuff in Haem's refrigerator is gonna stink.

Wow. Just wow. I'm glad Haemsy and SPT are okay. This kinda thing doesn't happen up here, but let's just say I'm glad I read all those survivalism books. Can they leave? Or would they hafta just walk or take bikes? Goddamn.

People will always return to their base nature if allowed the opportunity.  Remember these are not the law abiding, well educated people that left the city when the opportunity was availible.  What is sad is they either do not realize, or do not care, that they are making the situation worse not only from those they are stealing from, but for themselves as well.  Poor NO, spared the ravages of catastrophic disaster only to be raped and pillaged.  :|  

I'd hazard a guess that they stayed because they didn't have a choice (e.g., no car, sick mama, close proximity to drug dealer, etc.), and I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures. If I were too poor to leave a disaster area I'd prolly pillage too. I just hope all those merchants have good insurance.

Looting always seemed like good clean fun to me. Pillaging, not so much.

Spared? Have you not seen the news in the last 24 hours?

Insurance companies are already preparing NOT to pay for most of the damage (some statements released and the like).  Most insurance policies do not cover flooding (has to be purchased seperate), and the ones that do have stipulations and the like.  On the bright side of things at least there is oil involved;  the conspiracy theorists are beginning to make more sense to me as I watch events unfold.  I am going to see if there is any word on Biloxi yet;  as of yesterday no one could even get past Gulf Port.  

And Shockeye, it is bad.  But considering how badly things could of gone, I would say NO was lucky.  Hell that Super Dome was supposed to take 200 MPH winds from what I understand, but the winds that occured almost ripped it clean off.  Imagine what would of happened if Katrina had not veered north and decimated Biloxi.

My parents (south AL) are fine, and so is the house, which is great because they have only had this roof for six months, thanks to Ivan and a slow-ass FEMA check.

I can go looking for my extra GBA and mail it to Haem, if mail delivery is working.  No games, though.

Things are getting worse there.  Sorry if I seemed callous.  Seems fires have been springing up,  and 80% of the city is underwater at this point.

(http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/9921/image08301413cvbs5yd.jpg)

I am grateful that most people were evacuated from the city.  Things are looking pretty grim.

Awful.  There's more bad news besides this and I just don't want to know about it, even the bits I do know about.

Lots.  Currently toxic waste is souping around NO.  In the water thats covering 80% of the city.  In Biloxi the SAR (search and rescue) crews do not have the manpower to remove dead bodies, so they are just posting black marks on houses.  Oil Rigs have washed up on Alabama's shore.  It will be a few days before a clear picture emerges on how bad things are there.  I was feeling better about things because it swung through Biloxi, but it appears they did a shitty job preparing.  I lived down there 5 years ago for a bit, and it makes me sad seeing places some of the places I knew gone/destroyed.

Looks like Haemish is going to have fun cleaning out the fridge.

Cheddar,

Biggest issue is the main focus that was mostly being presented was the wind strength, but just like Ivan last year, Katrina came in when the tides were up and thus the storm surge took the most toll and for some reason I did not see any of the broad casts making more than nominal noise about that impact.  Everything about this storm is looking grim.

Got to a lull in the databasery so I am checking out the CNN webcast.  Looks bad.  NO is going to take a while to pump dry.

If the levee has broken and the main pumping station is inoperable, there isn't much they can do, is there?  I have no idea if they can fix a levee while water is still pouring through and there is nothing to pump it out. I wouldn't have though so.  I don't see how they can do much except try and remove every living thing from New Orleans until it's fixed. Sewage, misquitos, poisonous snakes... doesn't sound very habitable.  It's totally toxic and with the water level rising, soon there will be as much sewage in the streets as there was in the sewer, no?  Sounds to me as if New Orleans is mostly gone and they're going to have to start over nearly from scratch.  It's such a pity, too... it was one of the most interesting cities in America.

Never had any desire to go there. Now, I suppose I have absolutly no reason to ever go.

I wonder how long before the cemetaries start emptying out...

Unless you want to volunteer and help.

Just got a message sent to my phone that the bodies are piling up and can't be cleaned out fast enough and another 10,000 people were forced out of their graves homes.

I give the dead about 26 hours before they return to life and open a gate to hell.

I heard some people fled to their attics to avoid the flooding, then the water came higher and they had no way out.  Some used shotguns to blast a whole out of their roofs.  Yipes.

An oil rig stuck under a bridge: (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1756&e=4&u=/050830/photos_sc_afp/050830110409_v0udx7gl_photo2)
(http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/afp/20050830/capt.sge.dan11.300805113848.photo02.photo.default-380x252.jpg)

I'm thanking all the Gods right now. Even the naked ones with multiple appendages.

We just got power back about an hour ago. As annoying and frustrating as the whole experience is, SPT and I were FUCKING LUCKY. We got bupkiss compared to what we could have gotten. Let me just paint you a picture, before I read all the posts here.

We are about 3 hours drive from the Mississippi Gulf Coast, about that distance from New Orleans. Around 200 miles away from landfall. 200 MILES. We weren't even in the direct path. The eye passed about 50 miles to the east of us, and was a category 2 when it passed us. I've lived about this far from the Coast all my life. The worst I'd ever seen was Frederick in 1980 or so, and was out of power for 3 days. 3 days and we lived 5 miles from the nearest town (which was one of those eyeblink towns without a post office). I mean rural.

This was much, much worse. The wind was so hard, rain didn't have time to fall straight, it was horizontal. Trees thrown over. Umbrella was useless because as soon as you got it into the rain, the wind shifted and blew it right back on you. Shit was coming down. And I don't mean it did this for a few minutes, it was like this from about noon until midnight or later. Shingles just started flying off the house. Somehow, none of the windows broke. Leaves everywhere. Power went out about 11 am yesterday, and was out until about 2 pm today.

Most of the people in this town don't have power. We went driving around just trying to find a grocery station or a gas station or a restaurant that had enough power to actually work their registers or gas pumps. Lines at the gas pump were out the street and down 4 or 5 blocks. The gas ran out while I was pumping it. Cell phone coverage was sporadic. We had phones until sometime in the early morning, and we still have sporadic phone and cell phone coverage. Trees were uprooted, power lines torn up all over the place. ICE was a goddamn precious commodity. And we're lucky that the heat was only about 88 degrees today, as opposed to the 90's it'll be tomorrow. They won't even let me back into work today (not that I mind). It was like this place was in the 1930's Depression with food lines at the grocery stores and restaurants that were open and lines at the pump. The radio stations and TV news are reporting on what places have ice and gas.

And we got lucky. We got nothing like what those folks on the Coast and in New Orleans got. Those pictures you see on the TV? Those are real, and those people, whatever they had, have got nothing now. The people crowded into the shelters here can't even get back to their homes this week. They are describing major highways, fucking INTERSTATES, as destroyed. Not impassable, DESTROYED. I may be being overly dramatic, but I feel like I've looked over the edge of a cliff at the end of days, and barely missed going over.

If you can give to the Red Cross, do so. Those people are doing the work of angels. They are risking life, limb and plague-like disease to help people they don't know.

Right now, fucked-up shingles look pretty goddamn good. Thank you guys for all your concern, all your thoughts and prayers. Short of making this a drunken "I LOVE YOU GUYS" post, you guys thinking of me makes me feel good. Now concentrate those positive thoughts on the people who need it a lot more than me and my beautiful wife.

I'm going to enjoy the miracle of air conditioning and satellite TIVO.

Welcome back. :-D

So honestly now.

SB.exe or Katrina?

You and PopTart's name came up in conversation a lot last night and today.  We're happy you're ok!

Glad to hear you're okay Ham.

My degree isn't going to finish itself.


That is just wrong.

It's also only going to get worse.  Kat has swept up into the Ohio River valley, so all the rain from the last 24 hours has been draining into the Ohio, headed downriver to the Mississippi and then New Orleans. I haven't seen anyone cover that on the news yet, so I don't think that's even occured to anyone yet.  However, Southern Ohio/ N. Ky has had floor warning and high water since last night, there's only one place for it all to go from here all the way down to the Gulf.

Last I heard there were 2 broken levees in NO and all the pumping stations were out, with one having swamped before Kat even hit land.  The river isn't what's flooding the city, yet, just the canal and the lake. They're trying to find a plan to evacuate the Superdome since the waters are going to continue to rise there. THat's 10k people on top of the other evacuees they're struggling to rescue from their houses. 

I just heard on the news that they are now planning to abandon New Orleans completely, as far as non-essentials are concerned.  I'm kind of surprised they didn't decide this before, but I suppose it's a such a huge decision that no one really wanted to make it.

This kind of shit makes me embarrassed to be a human being.

Edit- BTW H, glad you and the missus are ok; if you need anything, holla.  How did Snow Beast take the excitement?

Tactical nuke, please?

Is that even remotely funny? No.

They're both stupid; The police for stooping down to that level and looting, and the people for thinking it's legal just because the cops do it.

That doesn't mean you should make a joke about nuking New Orleans.

It was more directed at the stupid people, not so much NO.

Ladies!  Do not soil your short white gloves!

I like to think that the cops are taking stuff so as to keep it in custody and return it later. It makes me much less saddened to be a human that way.

I was talking more from a theft insurance thing. Glad Haem and SPT are okay. Thank goodness. I'm really sad that this is happening, but the bit about the bewildered toddler kinda cracked me up a little. The mental picture of a toddler up on a case of booze is humorous.

Why isn't anyone stealing propane, I wonder? Or are they just not reporting the people smart enough to loot essentials like fuel, campstoves and water filters (Nalgene makes ones that can be used to filter swamp water)? Sheesh. Amateurs. Lotta good that DVD player is gonna do you when you're dying of dysentary.

Lessee, first off, glad to hear from those who were there in the area and escaped worse.  Hope the same prevails broadly, but I fear not.

On the cemetaries, let's hope that the reports of bodies floating in the street in New Orleans is mostly corpses from the cemetaries.  But I fear not.

On the levee's, patching them is probably a longshot.  I've seen a lot of flood on the Upper Mississippi, and have a generation of stories from kin who lived on the bottomland, and basically, once the levee goes, it doesn't get fixed until the water goes down.  I expect that the water levels will have to equalize before they can hope to patch the lake levees and pump the city out.  If the river levees go, then engineering miricales will need to be produced.

On looting, I'd note that the city is entirely flooded, the roads are cut, likely the only way out is via boat, and everyone may have to leave or die.  What exactly are people going to do with looted big screen plasma TVs? 

Finally, while the impact on the affected area is brutal and tragic, the effect on the rest of the country is going to be profound.  We may be in the process of losing a major city and the largest port in the country, along with severe damage to several other cities.  This cannot be a good thing for our economy.

"When the levee breaks, we'll have no place to stay."

Edit: I'd like to remind everyone that humans are tenacious fuckers and there will always be hangers-on. I mean, look at the countries of Thailand and Vietnam. THose people live on nasty, polluted water and are doing just fine, thank you. New Orleans has always been aware of the potential for bodies to come rising out of their graves, so I guess now people will just hafta get cremated. It's gonna suck for awhile, but everything'll be just fine, mark my words.

Good to hear Haem is alright.

Other than that though. Jesus Christ. There goes a whole city. I mean, a whole fucking city. Utterly gone, with rebuilding not even able to fucking START for a long time.

At least the fucking water went away after the Tsunami (nevermind that was a pathetic small freebie from god compared to the INCREDIBLE amount of death).

I don't know if rebuilding is really a smart idea. Building or rebuilding a city below sea level next to the sea really isn't the greatest idea.

[EDIT] Unconfirmed reports of riot at New Orleans Parish Prison; deputies and their families who took shelter there held hostage.

I agree with Shockeye. What was convenient in the 1700s isn't necessarily great shakes nowadays.

Humans have drastically altered weather patterns over the last few generations (since the Industrial Revolution) through all of our pollution and now the poorest nations (and poorer parts of rich nations) have to pay for it. It's really too bad.

Hippy. We are well within the norm for our planet as far as environments are concerned.  But building below see level, this is a problem.

Watch yer mouth, boy. I'm no hippie. Humans are already intentionally altering rain patterns in dry agricultural areas by seeding clouds with particulate so the water molecules will condense.

  I've looked through quite a lot of news stories and have yet to see any other nations offering any aid. Odd that.

 And I do hope a good number of those looters are shot.

Actually at least one has (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050829/pl_afp/usweathervenezuelaoil).

Haem and Pop,

Glad to hear you made it through realatively safe.

Evangolis,

Was thinking the same thing.  That and the soul of Jazz just took a strong right cross.  Damn.

You know's what worse than wading around in polluted water? Or hell, even drowning in it?

Fucking alligators, man. Snakes. Leeches. Creepy crawly things. The fact that your neighborhood just turned into a swamp overnight. That would be such a bitch if you survived the worst hurricane in U.S. history, but ended up getting your limbs bitten off by a giant meat eating lizard.

Think about the people who are left in New Orleans. These are people who IGNORED a mandatory evacuation order. Now, I can understand people not having transportation out of town, or being too infirm to leave. But if you are fucking dumb enough to ignore civil authorities telling you that this shit was coming, AND you start looting fucking jewelry cases in a Wal-Mart in the middle of a disaster area when this place is giving away food and things you need? You are a fucking waste of skin. There are special places in hell for those fuckers. It isn't even like they have power to use the fucking flat-screen TV. I mean seriously, you may be stuck in the earthly equivalent of hell, but that doesn't mean you have to try to outdemon the demons.

And Strazos? The tactical nuke already hit New Orleans. That's the problem with tac nukes, they hit people who were just minding their own business. You have to get personal with the people who really deserve the bad shit.

From the news I'm getting, New Orleans is almost a lost cause. It sounds like they are going to have to start almost entirely over. The Mississippi Gulf Coast? The same way. Our governor took a tour there today. He starts naming towns, and the only thing he can say about them is "Gone."

Hell on earth gets hell-ier.

On the lighter side...

(http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/9393/bignews0hh.jpg)

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG.ac3fcea.html

Up to date news for those tracking what is happening.  It is depressing; things are getting worse and worse.  I was semi positive after reading that the storm veered away, but now all the predictions for worse case scenerios seem to be happening one by one.

And poor Biloxi.  I just saw some pictures from the Base down there (I did training there back in 99-00) and it is hurting.  All the casinos are reported blown away except one; ironically the Pirate Ship one is still there (I forget what its called).  One casino was pushed on top of a Days Inn even. 


Additional: Does anyone here know if they are accepting volunteers from the Individual Ready Reserve to assist with recovery efforts (I scoured the reserve website and did not see anything for this)?  If you do not have an account and want to contact me please send me an e-mail to: stefanslaght <at> gmail.com.  Short of activation by the US Military I do not see my school allowing me time off to go help with efforts.  Heh I can be ready to go in as little as a day if they need the manpower (I just need a haircut, shave, and to pack a couple clothes). 

So the Bud Light is what... bait?  Couldn't help but smirk at that.  (Though I'm assuming from the way it was phrased that her daughters are fine, they just went to get supplies and she came to get them.  If they're actually legitimately missing... not so funny.)  Seriously, Bud Light the most nutrionally valuable thing she could've grabbed?


Lighthearted joke, so I use humor to deal with this kinda stuff, ignore it or join me:  Oh come on.  Who didn't expect the pirates to make it through this?  Do you see any ninjas still standing?  No.  I think we know who's superior.

I was thinking the same thing.  Beyond the loss of human life I honestly could care less about Biloxi.  I just hope no one was hurt, and that everything there is gone.  It was perhaps the worst city I have ever been to.  Seriously, it made the Middle East seem like one big beach party.

Oh, almost forgot to mentioned- I heard on the radio today that they're trying to ship some inmates to other counties and use the prison guards as peacekeepers in the streets.  Those riots... probably not helping.  It's just one constant stream of shit being propelled into this fan.

There were reports of some people firing AK-47s at a police station.  I am sure that was dramatized though; probably some people drunk off their free booze taking potshots at the station with .22's.  One Officer did get shot in the head though. 

I think all these micro-stories of individual tragedies are somewhat of a distraction. I awoke today to see an annihilated city, and was somewhat shocked when they finally decided that they had to abandon the city this evening. The water was rising a couple of feet per hour during the day, the levees were broken and the punmping stations offline. There should have been no pretense that the situation could be remedied. From what I heard, nearly every country has already offered support. I don't think our authorities really have any idea of what we are dealing with yet, nor would I expect them to. It's hard to accept international aid when the immediate situation is beyond reasonable control.

There are over 1,000,000 homeless people in the region. Life is not going to go back to normal. Every one of them has to begin to build a new normal moving forward. We cant get back the dead, nor can we get back most of what is lost in New Orleans. What replaces it can carry the spirit of both, but it will be the work of today and tomorrow. It's truly shocking.

I'm just going to preface all my jokes with this so people don't get bothered or thinking that I'm not taking the situation seriously.

Humor is how I deal with stuff like this, ignore it or join me-
According to their Senator, they "absolutely" plan to rebuild.  Think they'll call it "New New Orleans"?

I watched Nightline tonight.  I'm going to stop following this, it is just too damn depressing.  As one reporter said, this disaster is too big for TV to do justice to.  The elected officials of Louisiana look like they are going to need PTSD treatment; glassy stares all around.

Much of the worst damage on the Mississippi coast seems to be from barges carrying goods that came inland on the storm surge and crushed houses.  A lot of the shots showed the barges and their cargo lying inland with nothing between them and the ocean but bare foundations.  The Pirate Ship casino is aground at the ocean's edge, looking very creepy.

On the ecological issues, there have been warnings for years that beachfront building and wetlands destruction would lead to this sort of result in the Mississippi Delta area.  I feel for the people caught up in this horror, but that doesn't excuse the decades of bad public policy that have contributed to what is clearly a catastrophe of stunning magnitude.

There is a lot of confusion about conditions in New Orleans.  There was footage of the evacuated prisoners sitting on an on ramp with armed gaurds around them, but reports about hostages were unconfirmed, and the pictures I saw looked like things were under control.  Nobody is sure what is really going on down there.

It will likely be months to get the levees repaired and the city drained.  At this point, an entire city is homeless and unemployed.

Predictions are for several more hurricanes before the end of the season.

Of course you don't see any ninjas. Until they sneak up behind the pirates and kick them in the jimmy.

I find it slightly odd that nothing was done about the levees years ago. They were made of simple earth....If I remember correctly, earthen walls can be washed away fairly easily.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that if money had been pumped into countermeasures for such flooding, the damages, and particularly the flooding, could have been reduced signifigantly.

It works for London and the Thames, and for Venice.

First things first.
My thoughts went out to Haem and SPT (and all those people I don't know). I'm glad they're o.k. and that the death toll was so low - be happy that your nation is so organized that it's possible to evacuate a city the size of NO. Had this been India, the death toll would have been counted in thousands.

No other nations offering help?
WTF. You're the richest nation in the world. You could rebuild NO from scratch with one years worth of military spending. More than 16.000 kids die DAILY from starvation in the world, and yet you want me to open my wallet, because you had a bit of bother with a storm?!

When that it said, I'm sad for those who have lost everything. For the lives lost and the people that will suffer from this in a long time to come. I live in a rich country blessed by having no extreme weather of any kind at all. I will help those less fortunate... but that list is long and NO isn't on top of it.
I'm not making light of 1.000.000 homeless - it's absolutely horrible and I'm sad for them. But your nation has the capacity to help and if TheWalrus isn't first in line to volunteer his time to the effort, then I hope he'll kindly shut up.

I'm sure money is an issue and more could be done. That's how cost/benefit works and your country is great at saving on these things - but the cities you mention doesn't have the kind of weather that the US suffers from occasionally. Read up on geography before you compare apples and oranges.

I always found it odd that the US is ALWAYS there to help out any other nation on the planet when something bad happens, but I never hear of anyone returning the favor. I never understood the obligation, especially when people are extremely jealous of the US economy. Frankly, I never understood That either; One thing I learned while overseas is that, regardless of what other people say, I don't see people in the US being any better than people in western Europe - Life in the US is not all its cracked up to be.

Funny that you mention Venice, because they're on pretty shaky ground themselves. It's only a matter of time before that city is gone too.

Saw a documentary at some point on the subject. Apparently, they're constructing gigantic man-made jetties to, basically, redirect the ocean tides/currents. I don't have a link.

That's just plain stupid, but explaining it to you would turn this into a political thread (which I didn't start), so I won't. This isn't the right time to be called a cockmunching douchebag by Haem... did I mention, that I was happy, he's allright?

Yep. Lets not let what happened to London train bombing thread happen here. K?  If you have burning urge to take this off in a tangental direction, the politics forum awaits. 

Stay classy. 

It sucks to see my home destroyed and submerged, but at least I'm not in it.  Good luck to anyone on the gulf coast struggling through this.  It's going to be a long time before we get things are back to normal.

P.S. - Looters need to die a very slow, very painful death.

Are you saying that you're a victim? A damn shame, if so.

What city do you live in?

I've now heard that the prison riot/break/hostage thing was a completely false rumor.   :roll:

Depending on where you heard it from, that could just be a false rumor too.  :wink:

Links?

They rebuilt Galviston after 2 of the deadliest Hurricanes ever within the span of 15 years, (including THE deadliest) they'll rebuild New Orleans.  The French Quarter remains relativly untouched, it's just the newer construction that's gone under.  New codes & such addressing what we learn from this won't be implemented for approx 5 years, given the red tape it takes to get such things through code committees.

As for using something 'more permanent' than just dirt for levees, it's REALLLY costly to build something like that.  On top of that, it's a lot harder to maintain since you have to do regular inspections to make sure the foundations aren't being washed out, unless you go down to bedrock and build from there.  It takes a whole lot of water to get dirt to the point it liquifies and washes away, and this was more severe than anything that was expected or planned for at the time most of these building were built.

Hell, even modern code doesn't completly cover a Cat 5 (yeah it was a 4, I'm making a point).. it's almost a given that you'll lose anything not a solid structure (i.e. houses, small hotels, small commercial structures) because of the forces involved. Lots of codes were tightened after Andrew in '92, but that's not a lot of structures, and not all places adopted those changes due to increased cost.

That's why there's MANDATORY evacuations and you just need to adhere to them.  One thing I haven't heard is do counties even help people evacuate after they annoucne a mandatory evac?  Does the local media give as much coverage about how to get help getting the hell out as they do to the old 'reporter in the storm'? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Barrier

What costs more; Countermeasures, or rebuilding a major city?

I'm not trying to be snarky, but some of the damage could have been mitigated if people ponied up the money. I'm suprised this hasn't happened before....It's a city, basically in a swamp, that is along the coast, and Below sea level - It was almost like the city was in a bowl, floating in the sink. This time, the water got high, and the top edges of the bowl broke away a bit.

Local Police and Fireman were given the freedom to commandeer vehicles, and they drove around with airhorns telling people to get out ect ect.  Martial law was also declared beforehand, but I have yet to read anything about people being FORCED to leave. 

Martial law,  or Martian Law?

I'm sure Haemish.....  I mean, Sir Phobos.....  is on the job.

Do you think they'll serve warm, flat Dome Foam?



link (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/31/D8CARI1G3.html)

Which part of 'Britain isn't prone to hurricanes' didn't you get?
Note how many times the word 'slow' is used in the article you linked too. It's costly but easier to protect London from a slowly growing flood risk. It would probably be impossible to protrct NO from a sudden catastrophic flood like this one.
Some parts of nature (volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes) we simply don't have the resources/capabilities to protect against. It sucks, but that's life.

Could more be done? Sure, probably. What is more costly.... hmm, who can tell. It also depends on who gets to pay - building codes puts the price on private construction companies, disaster relief puts the cost on taxpayers...

AP story (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/H/HURRICANE_KATRINA?SITE=NYUTI&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&SECTION=HOME)

Just a thought, but what does this mean for the Saints with the NFL season starting in a week?

I believe the Saint aren't scheduled to play at home until Sept. 18th.

What it means is the Saints need a new home.


[EDIT] Saints may be going to the Alamodome. (http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA083105.saints.en.10c41674.html)

It's true - Britain doesn't get hurricanes generally. What it gets are the remnants, usually at tropical storm strength at most. These too can be deadly, with winds gusting over 130mph. However, the tails of these storms tend to hit the NW of the island, which is not as susceptible to storm surges, which is what is being argued about here. One of the things that helps protect London from storm surges, and allows the flood barrier to be engineered for less dramatic flood rates is the system of inter-tidal mud flats and marshland in the estuary. If anything could have been done to better protect New Orleans, it would have been to deal with the collapse and erosion of the natural swampland in the estuary. It has been hypothesised that this had dramatically reduced the ability of the levee system to withstand storm surges. Would it have helped protect against the erosion of the lake levee in this category 4 storm? I don't know, but it certainly wouldn't have hurt.

Um, I never said London was vulnerable to hurricanes, but they Do guard themselves against known damaging weather.

The word "slow" was used twice on the page I linked, and in both instances referred to the slow increase of the threat of storm surges.
And I never said spending money would have stopped NO from getting fucked up; I'm just saying it may not have been as bad.

And either way, taxpayers will be footing a huge bill for this.

I don't think that there is much done other than redirecting all traffic on the interstates to a single direction, but I'd have to ask.  I was never subject to a mandatory evacuation.

Seems like fuel prices are up to about $3 per gallon around Atlanta.  I'm going to see about telecommuting.  That flight to SanFran just got more expensive, too.

I just got word in my voicemail that The Company is donating five million dollars to the effort, as well as working directly with FEMA to deliver product where needed.

For those with political views, I've started a thread in politics to vent on a few points that bother me. (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=4525.0)

Countermeasures are always a case of too little too late. Simple solutions? Quit filling wetlands, build above sea level, don't build within FEMA-mapped hazard zones. This is a tragic case of "the foolish man built his house on the sand", and despite federal regulations protecting wetlands under Section 404 of the Clean Water ACt, not all states have their own wetlands regulations. Oregon has pretty strict ones, but some states have none at all. Wetlands aren't just cute lil' frog and heron habitat, and they're not just breeding grounds for gators and mosquitos - they serve an ecological purpose that incidentally protects human interests too. Maybe this will force ALL coastal states to conduct analyses of the economic, environmental, social and energy costs of allowing conflicting uses within ecologically sensitive areas.

Yeah, but NO, for instance, is one of the oldest cities in the United States (I know I'm just pointing out the obvious here, but it has to be said). It's been around since the early 1700's. Hell, that whole region was developed and colonized much before the rest of the country. They didn't exactly have FEMA in King Louis' time to know better. And it wasn't very practical to change much of anything once people did know any better. It's not the same situation as when people build a pretty little beach house by the Florida gulf, or like those idiots who build next to volcanos in Hawaii.

That being said, now that it's gone, I wonder if it's really worth it to rebuild again. Seriously. Would it be less expensive to just relocate people and help them get on with their lives somewhere else? How much does it cost to pretty much rebuild an entire major metropolitan area?

NO was (past tense on purpose) one of our most important ports for the country.  So yes, we DO need to rebuild it to some extent.  You cannot replace its strategic location; one of the reasons it was so popular was for where it was. 

It is always worth it to rebuild again. Especially in a situation like this. I really wish you guys had the local channels down here or were able to visit the shelters or feel like a fucking heel because you can't do too much or enough for these people, because to hear them talk and speak and the desire to just keep going is a beautiful and inspiring thing.  I only wish I had the positivity and the strength these people do. Christ I feel like complete shit because we lost shingles on our house and power/phone.

These people lost the things (in some cases VERY LITTLE things) they had.  Yet they have the will to just keep going..

Can you really start questioning price at a time like this?


Anyway, I forgot to add because I am posting from limited connection speed at the moment but please help the people down here. If you are in the south and can volunteer any time, please go to your local Red Cross or even www.RedCross.org and donate your time/money to them because they are in dire need of supplies and donations.

And Strazos, you are normally an ass but your tactical nuke comment was particularly ridiculous. So this one's for you buddy, may New Jersey never go up in fucking flames.

(http://cmsimg.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?NewTbl=1&Avis=D0&Dato=20050830&Kategori=NEWS0110&Lopenr=508300816&Ref=PH&Item=1&Maxw=300)

And in case any of you want to see what's happening down here:

http://www.thejacksonchannel.com

http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=NEWS0110&template=slide Link to many multiple slideshows.

And god bless absolutely everyone in the SouthEast.

I talked to some military guys, and they had people show up at the base and ask for rides down there so they could help out.  Not kidding.  They got a free ride from some of the troops transports; hopefully they are able to provide assistance.  I am still trying to figure out how I get activated; short of military activation, I do not see myself able to go help.  Besides the fact that I am flat broke I do not think the school will let me off for a semester.  Not without paying serious money I do not have.


Also, in Strays defense, he has a good point.  Is it worth creating a ghetto metropolis for drunk women to show what low self esteem they have?  In his defense and all. 

It's not meant to be insensitive. It's just hard to fathom how it's all going to work. Logistics wise, manpower wise, health wise, financially.... People can be positive and all that, but this is a disaster that no one in our country has experienced before. The same people who are staying positive are the same people who underestimated a Cat 5 and decided to "ride it out". Their "positivity" could very well be as impractical as their "courage" was 4 days ago.

I'm not saying it should be left as a swamp or anything. The country could get it up and running for industrial reasons fairly quickly...But I'm talking about residential areas. Miles and miles of homes are gone. Businesses are kaput. Who's going to rebuild that? Where's the money coming from? And who gets and doesn't get to live in these homes? And how does the average person support and sustain themselves in these homes, seeing that there won't be as many options for employment?

While this is 'unheard of' in the modern US, rebuilding an entiere city is not unheard of historicly. It's fatalistic and naive to say that NO will not be rebuilt. It's not optomisim, it's fact.  Andrew did far more devastation to Florida across a wider swath, and nobody abandoned the Miami coast. This is just so horrible because it's so concentrated, and the city is in a damn lousy area.  This should be seen by Orleans city planners as an opportunity to fix some of the 'oh that just happened.." mistakes 200 years of unplanned (as in design)  growth.

Thanks for taking it out of context for me, but it was already quite clear that I was referring to the people who take this as an oppurtunity to run down the street and help themselves to a new TV and a pair of Air Jordans. There is nothing that can justify this; It just makes a bad situation worse.

In defense of the original inhabitants, they mostly built on the parts of the swamp that were above sea level.

On reconstruction, certainly some of it should be rebuilt, but I wonder at building again in the low lying areas.  When my grandfather got flooded out in 1936, he rebuilt and carried on, but he did it on the bluff, not back on the floodplain.

I'm sure we'll probably rebuild the whole city again.  Much of the greater New Orleans area was swamp no more than 40-50 years ago.  They pumped the water then, and I guess we'll do it again.  IMO, the problem is the cutting of federal funds to the Army Corps of Engineers. That money was supposed to go to solving the levee problem that we've known about for years.  Everyone in New Orleans has been talking about this exact problem for as long as I can remember.  Hopefully, when we rebuild, the government will see fit to give the Army Corps of Engineers the proper funding to make sure that we don't have a problem like this in the future.

On another topic, Dallas kicks ass.  Cheap drinks and hot chicks.  If I have to be seperated from my drinking buddies and parties in New Orleans, there aren't many other places I'd rather be.  If you're a hot fem irl, make sure to give up the sympathy puddin' to your local New Orleans refugees.

There is already talk of simply levelling everything and dredging dirt to raise the body of NO above water (this was done elsewhere after a natural distaster, the name escapes me at the moment).  That toxic sludge they were talking about?  Yeah, its there.  Basically everything is going to be worthless by the time the pumping is finished (minimum of a month in most places).  Also note that the levee that failed was the most recent one touted to be the shiznit.  Now people are talking about how the multi million dollar contract for it went to people who "knew" people. 

And yes, I agree, if you are a hot fem irl, please share your pudding with this man (who may or may not be a refugee from NO, I am just assuming he is). 

Seriously.

Only problem with raising the city above sea level is that it will just sink eventually anyway.  It doesn't really bother me, my part of town is about 3-4ft above sea level.

This really doesn't surprise me.  Public funds in New Orleans tend to go to people who "knew" people.

[edit] Nevermind. That was close to derail territory.

Anyways..

Newsflash: This is not isolated. Money always goes to people who know people. Always. Except with the lottery, then it goes to people with the worst debt, or at least that's my theory.

One thing I can see happening is if they do rebuild new orleans and I assume they will they are going to either have to make a much more robust levy system and or a great deal of changes to their building codes. That city is built along a coast in a bowl shapped area thats below sea level. That is a disaster waiting to happen. The older parts of town got by at least the main hurricane pretty well and that was because the people recognized that hey we are living in a swamp build on the highest ground we can.

The sprawl that occured over the years sprawled into very dangerous areas and the city plan may very well need to be changed to be more realistic about its positioning.

I think new orleans WILL be rebuilt but I am wondering if they will rebuild it in the exact same place or if they will take this time to replan the whole city and do it right. The slate has been wiped clean if they want to ever design it better now is the freaking time to do so.

kaid

New Orleans is built where it is because that is where the Mississippi drains into the Gulf Of Mexico.  If you need any more explanation than that then I suggest multiple courses on economics and critical thinking at the local U.  However many billions it costs to rebuild New Orleans in the exact same spot it is a pittance compared to how much in $$'s of trade and industry that has to pass though that spot in any given year.

I'm worried about this.  All bullshit aside, I think this is really bad. It's disastrous for those states and I'm bloody sympathetic.  But it will affect everyone outside those places too. I'm in Canada, and here's why I'm worried:

• credible estimates that 25% of the US oil refining capability suspended
• "About a third of the petroleum produced in the U.S. (which meets 45% of U.S. demand), is from the Gulf of Mexico, and 90% of that moves through Louisiana" Clicky (http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/aug2005/nf20050830_8693_db035.htm)
• oil by the barrel already reached record high this month  (http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/10/news/economy/oil_gas/) before Katrina, before that loss of US production
• gas at the pumps has jumped $.30 roughly in the last 3 weeks in Canada.  Seriously.  It's $1.28 a litre where I live. 
• gas prices affect everything at large (Consumer Price Index), cost of living will go up (e.g. food more expensive because of trucking, fuel oil for home heating will be near double this year (jeebus), airline travel, bus travel, etc.)
• gas prices will now NEVER go below $1 again, since as a dwindling resource and economic shift, it always increases for inflation.  And greed.
• will salaries go up accordingly?  they should, but only after the CPI is shown to increase, or there's real evidence of inflation.  Of course, have to have the cash to afford those salaries.  And remember offshoring.
• I suppose we should start realizing that we are indeed running out of oil long-term, even if we get over this short-term lack of supply

oh, and possibly many many corpses in a flooded area creating disease

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9150429/

Sums it up

I don't expect wages to go up anywhere near the % that all goods are about to increase. (I'd heard this morning that some places were already increasing prices due to increased shipping costs, since if truckers can't pay for gas there simply are no goods to buy.)   Even prior to the hurricane forming I'd seen an article (http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P126956.asp) that mentioned how wages were likely to remain level because companies were more focused on profit than recompensation workers for increased productivity.  This upcoming increase in cost is going to depress job growth and wages, not help it. Not posting increased growth/ profits is 'unacceptable' even despite a huge tragedy like this that will shake the entire economy.  That means paying people less to do more as you increase costs to keep the same overhead.

Yeah, it's shortsighted and will blow-up eventualy, but in the short term (like 10 years) I'd say we're ALL pretty fucked.

Looks like 25,000 New Orleandors (sp?) are coming to my city now. And we get the Saints too!

What bothers me is the people where I live.  They honestly have no idea of the impact this will have for the nation; to them it is just another Andrew, effecting people in another state.  I love the Hampton Roads, but sometimes I wonder about the people.  Is it like this in other areas of the country?

I dunno, I think people have watched the jump in gas prices and have a clue.  It's already up 50c/gal here, and coworkers are saying some stations where they live (rural and outside the city) are out of gas.  I haven't seen or heard of any stations in the city out of gas, but there are lines.  Government owned gas pumps (used by state vehicles) ran dry.  People I've spoken with know that this is really bad, but what are you going to do?    Not much has changed except the jokes about gas prices and riding bicycles, because there's not much else that can be done.

Wow. This is still surreal to me...not sure when the enormity of it is going to sink in.

Gas in my town jumped 30¢ yesterday. The guy at my station (full service for shitty convinience store prices) says they are bumping it up 15¢ more at 2pm this afternoon.

That's a 45¢ increase in under 24 hours.

Shit is going to get nasty real soon. Luckily heat is included in my rent, looks like another winter in the ghetto.

Mississippi coast not getting coordinated help. (http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001052870)

This is hard to understand without believing that what's happened on the gulf coast is nothing less than the full collapse of the area's energy, transportation, and communication infrastructures.

It would be a good thing if people who are quoting gas prices could give some idea of location to make the references more meaningful.  It's happening nearly everywhere, it seems, but there seems to be a bit of difference in the amounts.

David Brooks' op-ed in the NY Times (sub.) is a good read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/01/opinion/01brooks.html

One of my co-workers had family/friends in the Gulfport area. Here is something he received today from friends of his regarding Keesler Airforce Base

==========================================

Here is the news about Keesler that some people got thru HAM radio.
 
Folks,
Here's what has happened to our own USAF brethren at Keesler AFB, Gulfport, MS
- Base housing was largely destroyed by a 25 foot wave
- There's 4 feet of mud in Maj. En Utterback's house (2 AF/CC)
- MSG/CC house burned to the ground (gas leak caught fire)
- 6000 USAF members and their families are living in shelters
- The power will be out there for at least 3 weeks
- The 2nd largest USAF hospital (at Keesler) is closed
-- Seawater got into the generator and they have no power
- Commissary/BX mostly destroyed
- Runway is operational; it's the only open airfield in the area
-- Day/VFR conditions only
- Gulfport Airport is closed for the foreseeable future
- The fence around the base is severely damaged
- Keesler had looters last night
-- Maxwell AFB is sending an SF detachment to reinforce the Keesler SF
- Parts of I-10 are under water; at least one major bridge is down
- Keesler has almost no communications (landline or cell)
-- They are relying primarily on radios

Hey, look on the bright side - now all that stock you own in bioremediation is gonna go through the roof. It's kind of ironic, but one of the more important functions of urban wetlands is improvement of water quality functions (besides floodwater storage, which is obviously as important). The City of Portland implements man-made wetlands at our sewage treatment plants to clean the waste before the water is released to the Columbia River. A possible solution to the VERY SERIOUS pollution problem is to construct mitigation wetlands along the entire expanse of floodplain. I seriously hope they do something to address the reasons "why", especially since wetland remediation is such an inexpensive, viable option for the rehabilitation of the landscape. The land can actually be drained by construcing wetlands, and it would provide lots of jobs for construction workers and unskilled laborers (who I imagine are gonna get the most fucked economically) Also, it bums me out that the USACE isn't getting money, since the Corps is the federal entity that takes jurisdiction over wetlands under the Clean Water Act. I imagine what will happen is private companies will contract with the Corps to rebuild most of the damaged bridges and whatnot.

Yes.. at least my coworkers and the folks calling the news radio show I heard as I was headed out to a site are clueless.  Lots of bitching about the $ .50 price increase in gas Cinci got yesterday, but little realization that it's a drop in the bucket compared to what's to come.

Also, I didn't watch Dateline last night, but just heard about this.  A big FUCK YOU to the reporter who cornered the Army Engineer and made it seem like his personal callousness is what caused the levee to be designed for 'only' a cat 3.   If they don't have the money given to them to build for a cat 5, it's not going to happen. It's that simple.  Someone, somewhere looked at the numbers on a page and said "Oh, that'll never happen it's not worth the extra billion."  THAT is the man you should be pissed at, in addition to the budget cuts to Flood/ wetlands protection that have been made over the last 6 years, not the corps.   America, you elected the dumbfucks, now we're all paying for it.

Very useful image -- CNN posts satellite image of NO (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/hurricanes/interactive/fullpage.nola.flood/katrina.html) taken yesterday.

Central upstate NY, an hour from anything that could really be termed metro. Ie: bumfuck nowhere, farmland.

It was $2.69 yesterday. Now it's $2.89.

San Antonio, TX

$6 dollars in Atlanta. 

Prices in the ATL are all over the spread, depending on where you are.  Check the BP on MLK near Bronner Bros.; it was $2.99 this morning around 0900.

$2.69 is what we've been paying all summer. Since I don't drive, I haven't been paying attention but this spells doom.

Figures.. I mentioned the price increase, as requested, but forgot to name the price.  $3.09 in Cinci, a $ .50 increase yesterday at noonish.  Many speculate it will go up again tomorrow due to the long Labor Day weekend and approach $4 soon.

I'm now trying to figure out how many blankets I need so I can keep my house at 60 degrees or cooler all winter, because this is going to kill me.

For reference, the prices in the ATL metro sprawl only hit the "ridiculous" sum of $2.50 last week.  Before then, it hovered between $2.20 and $2.30 most of the summer.

I'm not complaining about the gas prices, really, but I am concerned about the ripple effect on other areas.  The fact that my commuting cost is now about $60 per week is somewhat bothersome, though.

Here's a video from MSNBC of police looting inside a Wal-Mart.

Many oil refineries are operating at 35-40% capacity due to the hurricane. THere are problems, particularly among the gas sector in terms of oil.

On another note, the market didn't fall apart and Motorola hit a new high today (as in better than the last 5 years new high). Thankfully, the flubtards up at Wall Street decided not to let the hurricane rain on their parade.

I don't know about you guys, but if civilization as I know it ends here in Tulsa, I'm probably not going to have many scruples when it comes to smashing a window and getting my son some food. 

I fail to see why the looting is such a huge story.. I usually have enough food in my house to last a week at a time at the most, I just don't have Y2k stockpiles of food (anymore).  If a huge natural disaster cuts me and my family off from the rest of the world, I'm without power, the stores are closed, and I'm unable to leave because the streets are flooded,  I'm not really going to think twice before I break into wal mart and get me some phat lewtz (read: chiken).. It's not "looting" it's "survival".. Or are we only "shocked" because it's mostly poor black people doing it?

Might I suggest something other than Chicken?

You can suggest whatever you like, but when my two year old starts screaming for some chicken, he usually gets chicken.. ;)

My problem is the POLICE DOING THE LOOTING.

Thank you and drive through.

Economically, I think this is going to be bigger than most people realize. As this USA Today article (http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2005-09-01-katrina-econ-fallout-usat_x.htm) explains, the "just in time" oil/refinery network on the gulf coast has a lot of choke points.

This live journal  (http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/)from a web hosting company still in operation in downtown NO is gritty reading.

I can't think of anyone better to be doing it.. I hope that throughout New Orleans the men and women who have promised to "protect and serve" are busting into wal marts and getting needed supplies for the survivors who are cut off from the rest of humanity..  If I were police officer I'd see it as my duty to take what is needed to keep people alive and safe..

EDIT:  Gas = $2.99 here in Tulsa (well, Broken Arrow, I haven't wanted to spend the gas money to drive the extra 20 feet into Tulsa proper)..

use this folks for local averages: http://www.gaspricewatch.com/new/ (http://www.gaspricewatch.com/new/)

Weekly U.S. Retail Gasoline Prices, Regular Grade  (http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_home_page.html)
city data there
(http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_chart.gif)

Yea, gas for me is $3.17 a gallon. Fucking 30 cents more than regular unleaded. Blurgh, fuck you premium.

Humor is also the way I deal with shit like this. Also remember that for people even close to this, even a joke can sting pretty hard. Also, I'm going to be replying to posts as I get to them, because I haven't been much on the boards the last week.

My suggestion has been to rename the motherfucker Atlantis. Move west a few miles and start again, someplace that isn't stuck below sea level between the Father of Rivers and a giant fucking Lake.

The New Orleans paper, the Times Picayune, ran a story about 3 years ago on what would/could happen if such a hurricane hit New Orleans directly. They didn't get the sequence of events right, but the results? You are seeing them on the news nightly. Apparently, the problem was funding.

As for Biloxi, yeah, even before the casinos, the place has always been somewhere I'd NEVER live. I'd turn gay first. I just hated the places. The casinos helped that area survive, what with all that sweet, sweet tax revenue. Unfortunately, we (i.e. the State Legislature or maybe it was the Feds) decided that gambling was such a terrible evil that it couldn't be allowed on US land, but it was ok on navigable international waters, which apparently begins 5 feet offshore, or miles up the Mississippi River. Had those casinos not been required to be FUCKING FLOATING BARGES and had actually been structures, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have ended up across I-90. They'd have had damage, sure. But they'd be standing and people might have jobs to come back to in the next 6 months.

Hypocrisy does it again.

The residential areas should be on high ground.  The industrial areas are where they are for a reason.

I don't have a single problem with looting.  It's like The-fucking-Stand down there.  If my family needs food or drink in that situation, well just watch me toss a brick into that window and load my boat with essentials.  As for those who are looting jewelry and plasma TVs instead of food and water, Mother Nature has a solution for that sort of retardation.  Let'em haul a DVD player back home and try to eat it two weeks from now.

West valley is still hovering around $2.99.

And we have no black widows.

I don't know how prevalent it is that police are looting, but I suspect it's not a commonplace occurance.  There are police inside hotels and other structures guarding because they are too afraid to go outside.  People are saying they don't see any police they can ask for help... but there is no direction and they don't know what to do to help and, perhaps, they are out-numbered by angry people who may also be armed. I might hide, too.  I do know that as time passes, and I look at the television, the old faces look sadder and sicker and the young faces look angrier and more threatening.  These are people in an impossible situation.  They are doing what they think they need to do to survive and not everyone is succeeding.  Even those policemen might need some assistance in surviving... I'm sure they have families that they are desperately worried for.  I'm beginning to wonder if more people will die waiting for help than did in the hurricane.

It's really messed up and I find it very difficult not to blame W for the worst of it. 

I'd agree with you if there wern't reports of Police coming out of wal*mart with TVs rather than supplies.

There are people reporting from inside NO about the situation.  Evidently most the law abiding citizens have set up enclaves around the city, defending themselves from looters and trying to provide assistance to each other.  I would have to agree with Signe from what I have read;  many police are holed up with citizens, off the street, attempting to defend themselves and their location.  One "inside" view is here:

http://www.ernietheattorney.net/

edit.  Replaced blog link with another to appease our glorious masters.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=4463.msg113513#msg113513

I don't know, for every 1 video of people I've seen looting "questionable" items, I've seen 100 videos of people looting shoes, food, drinks, and clothes.. you know, the stuff you need to live.. so while I have no doubt that I've heard lots of rich white males libertarians on "teh internetz" talking about "looting plasma TVs" I've rarely seen such a thing actually occuring.. And honestly, who really cares if someone loots a plasma tv from a wal mart that is soon to be submerged in water?  Which of you rich white chic libertarians is going to buy a 40" plasma tv from that's been underwater in New Orleans for 30 days?  Don't you think that perhaps that stock is pretty much useless now anyways?  And in the end, don't you think the person starving to death in their attic clucthing a plasma TV and no food is justice enough in itself?

Besides, let he who read The Stand and didn't think of that one "cool" item he'd steal if he were one of the survivors cast the first stone.. I know I was planning on going after a high end motorcylce myself.. just me an my bike and the plague ridden land mutherfuckerz!

Fixed.  Sorry.

I did watch that, and it wasn't a hostile sort of thing, much more matter of fact.  He just laid the answer out, it was cat 3 because that was what was cost-effective, and the reporter pointed out that that choice doesn't look very cost-effective now.  Just the painful truth.  And I wouldn't blame anyone person for these choices, I'm sure it was all considered, debated and voted on; everyone from local zoning boards through the federal government participated in this process.  That includes us, the citizenry of the country.  Even the ones who didn't vote.  "You who decide not to decide, you still have made a choice."

We, as a society, have made choices that let this happen.  No doubt that most thought that this would not happen in our lifetimes, but we lost that bet, and we will now have to pay the cost of it.  This is the downside of smaller government and lower taxes, oh, not all of it, even with full-on anti-development policies and more government bureacracy, Katrina would have been a horror, but our choices have made it worse.  That sucks, but that is just the way it is.

I am for rebuilding NO, but I am not for rebuilding the parts under sea-level. So I guess I am not in favor of rebuilding NO if 80% of it is.

New Venice work for anyone else?

I'm sure they were just looking for Pampers and Strained Peas.

For comparison's sake:

8/31/05
5:09 AM
9.466 gallons (regular) at $2.649 = $25.08

9/01/05
5:02 PM
10.36 gallons (premium) at $3.499 = $36.25


There is usually a 10-30 cent gap between regular and premium around here, but this is silly. I saw a station near my school that was selling premium for $4+.

Eastern Valley, 2.999 for Unleaded, add about 15 cents for Extra, add another 15 for Supreme

EDIT

Let's make this easy:
http://gasbuddy.com/

Gas stations in the city are starting to close, due to being out of gas.  Last posted prices were at $3.30+/gal, where they were about $2.60/gal a week ago.  Stations running out of gas is really bad, because that's lost profit.  They can't jack prices to cover low supply - they have no supply to sell, and they're going to have to recover the losses.  I worry about gas prices not going below the $3 mark anytime soon, despite reports of refineries starting up some operations again.  That's a massive drag on the economy, at a point when we're already modestly extended into the Iraq effort.  I'm not saying this to ignore the very real and present human cost in NO; what I fear is that this is an ugly wound that could set the US up for another tradgedy.

Gasoline prices and supply are an unwelcome but ultimately temporary setback. The bigger issue is that New Orleans is a port for imports and exports that fuel industry. Many of these goods cannot economically be transported another way, and so it is imperitive that the ports be brought back online soon. Ports require workers, workers require lodging, food, medical facilties, police, schools, etc. The major industrial and port facilities can be brought back online in a fairly short order of time, and the impact will be significant but short-lived. However, the residental and support infrastructure facilities required to support the employees will take much much longer to put into place. During that time, many of the skilled workers will relocate and find employment elsewhere and it will take strong incentives to draw people into an undesirable and potentially dangerous work enviroment. It will be done, because, quite apart from its importance in the oil industry, New Orleans has always been one of the most important ports. We will bear the cost however heavy it is because we have to.

I don't think gas prices are as temporary as you might think. The fact is, supply stays the same and demand keeps going up. In a couple of years we'll be at $5 a gallon. And of course, not only will gas itself be more expensive, but everything that relies on gas will be more expensive - which is just about everything.

Obviously this spike will go back down a bit, but gas prices are going to keep going up, and that rate will increase.

That's understood. However, I feel that the setbacks from higher gasoline prices will be more temporary. We can and will adapt to the ever increasing worldwide demand and costs. Real world prices adjusted for inflation will come down from this spike even if dollar prices remain high. There is likely to be something of an employment and trade recession as a result of one our largest ports being economically dysfuntional for several years however. Everything that relies on resources with low value to weight ratios (and therefore shipping and barges) will rise in price much more drastically than those of higher value that rely just on gas.

Which means somebody will be making more money. There's always a silver-spoon lining.

Have I told you guys about all the great stuff I've been able to buy since I took the oil and gas job?

I think the effects of this combined with already high oil prices, Iraq, intermittent terrorism, and still to be confronted problems (e.g. diseases, 500k+ displaced people in the U.S.) are going to prolongue any temporary inconvenience from high pump prices.  Because all of the those issues (Iraq, oil, terrorism, middle east, etc.) are *not* temporary problems.  They are not controllable or determinate, predictable.  There is no quick fix for them and there is no quick sense of what NO will have on the U.S. economy and society.  Can this disaster be easily absorbed?  The U.S. is deeply engaged in structuring world markets and politics -- this is a deep and unexpected strain domestically that it hasn't budgeted for people-wise (armed forces) or fiscally.  And you guys can tell me better than I can speculate -- how good is the current U.S. domestic infrastructure (e.g. welfare, healthcare, road/electrification, etc.).   Can this domestic crisis be easily absorbed?  I believe this is going to with us for awhile and we haven't seen all the corners of yet to understand what it's real impact will be across the country (and yes, Canada will be effected as well because of our close economy and culture).

Well, I'm speculating as much as you are, but my overall feeling is yes, the US can absorb it.  The US still has the best economy in the world (side Q - for how long?), and it is a very large country with an array of resources.  I do think there are going to be a lot of harsh bruises from this that will last for some time.  I am not optimistic about gas prices, which affect almost everything else in the US economy.  One of our largest ports is crippled and near-useless for a month, which is a massive hamstring to import/export.  Much of NO will be uninhabitable for a  while, but infastructure outside the immediate area is either still operational, or will be before too long. 

The biggest impact on the rest of the nation will be just one of cost.  Everything will get more expensive, resulting in an overall drain on the economy and growth.  The second is a drain on manpower in emergency services, and both these situations combine to make us more vulnerable to another attack, whether terrorist, military or natural. 

The part that has me worried is this happened in August.  We still have another 3 months of Hurricane season, with September being the worst month for storms and we've already seen 12 tropical storms this year. (Lee already formed and dissipated about a day or 2 ago)  Another storm hitting another part of the country hard, or worse still THAT part of the country, things can go downhill fast.

Soledad O'Brien on CNN this morning was trying to grill the FEMA Director and asked him the same question and what his plans were to deal with it.  Also, and mabye more importantly, she asked (close paraphrase): "How come we were dropping food on the second day after the Tsunami in Bande Aceh and we haven't been able to NO??"  To which she got spin.   :sad_panda:

Roac,

I don't know.  To be honest, with the direction the administration has taken (if it has actually taken one) on Katrina, the recent history of seeming imperialism (by a non-US world view), I wonder if the true impact of Katrina will again be the narrowing of the rest of the global communities view of the US.

From Yahoo via Reuters (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/weather_katrina_reaction_dc)

Nice that we were the top, but the global warming to the US seems to be taking a glacial path.  Especially (as has been pointed out) when our government has badly handled the aftermath of Katrina.

Oddly, as I watch this stuff on the news....the Gov't dragging its feet, people yelling for help, and the mass looting and chaos....

I can't say that I am suprised by any of it.

How far down the evolutionary scale do we as human beings have to devolve before "desperation" just isn't a fucking excuse anymore? Seriously, I've read and seen many reports of people stealing jewelry and TV's. People stealing food? No problem. But the cocksucking cockroaches stealing TV's, then SHOOTING POLICE AND MILITARY IN THE HEAD when the police try to do their normal jobs, that I get fucking upset about. Reading about people in the Convention Center getting beaten and raped, and the police not being allowed in and driven off when trying to help? People taking potshots at military helicopters trying to offload food to the very people shooting at them? How much slack do you give?

It has nothing to do with race or creed or color or class, because if you are in New Orleans (or one of the other affected and cut off areas), it's all equal. Money means shit. There are good, innocent people down there fucking dying because no one can get in for fear of being shot at. I understand these people's anger, frustration and desperation. But they have lost all rationality when they start storming the barricades, stepping over each other and attacking the rescuers when said rescuers attempt to help. They are impeding their own rescue. How long til they resort to cannibalism?

The city seems to be eating itself alive, and the worst part is that it is very few agitators and idiots causing trouble for all the rest who just want to fucking live.

As for the national reporters who are jumping all over FEMA, Bush and anyone else they can in an attempt to stir up some controversy over the relief efforts, FUCK THEM. I know they have to find a story. But you know what? The time to start attacking people in positions of power is not while those same people are trying to save fucking lives. I think it's akin to walking down to 9-11 Ground Zero on 9-12, and yelling at the Police Chief because they aren't finding bodies fast enough. There will be more than enough time for the shit sandwich that will have to swallowed over the cost-cutting and mismanagement that has led New Orleans to this. Let's get people fucking rescued before we start tossing blame.

Like I said before, it's time to resort to more aggressive measures. Send those rescuers in with armed guards.

If they get shot at, simply return fire. It's not like you Really want to rescue the type of people who shoot at aid workers, anyway.

They have been doing this (going around with armed guards, kinda have to due to the rape, robbery, and murder).  The ramifications of a shoot to kill policy would have far reaching effects.  Sorry to say, but in todays PC climate you cannot do that to American citizens.  Our greatest weakness is our respect to human life, and ya know what, I can live with that.  I cannot live with Gangsta Terrys family suing the US government because their son was killed while stealing some Nikes.  Ladies and gentlement, we have to live in the constraints of our society, and that is how it is.

My point exactly.. You guys are busy blaming the victims when it's really a VERY SMALL part of the population causing trouble..


OHHHHH NOEEESSS!!1! YOU CAN'T POINT OUT THAT WE FUCKED UP!!! IT'S NOT FAIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRR!!!1!!!

What do you expect?  The people in power fucked up.. BIG TIME.. it's time to point out that they fucked up.. BIG TIME.. I'm sick of this "WE CAN'T TALK ABOUIT THE FACT THAT WE FUCKED UP!!!1! NOW IS NOT THE TTTTTTTTTIIIIMMMMMEEEE!!1!!@" bullshit that Bush tries to pull EVERY FUCKING TIME HE FUCKS UP.. you know what, NOW IS THE TIME.. IT'S TIME TO START TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU FUCKED UP THE COUNTRY.. don't want to hear it?  TOO BAD, LESS FUCKING UP OF THE COUNTRY NEXT TIME.. so fuck you and your apologetic sensitive self.. if Bush doesn't want to be blamed for fucking shit up, he shouldn't have fucked shit up..

And I have bad news for you buddy, look at the polls, you're WAY in the minority on this one.. people have finally grown tired of watching shit get fucked up and listening to Frist get on Larry King and say "Ohh no, it's not PATRIOTIC to talk about how we fucked up, now is the time for us to come together"...

You fuckers bitch about the "PC Climate" that we live in.. always complaining that some unamable group of people out there are trying to force you into being Politically Correct, then as soon as we start pointing out the fact that you fucked up the country you get all "OHHHH IT"S HORRIBLE!!!1! LISTEN TO YOU!!1! YOU DON'T LOVE US".. I have a suggestion:  Grow a consistent belief system you fucking twit..

Yeah, this isn't really something that the US as a whole can accept responsibility for, considering only half of us voted for Bush, and of those, only a certain fraction think the war is just. Money was pulled from improving the levees to fund this war that has had no positive outcome. And now Venezuela and Iran are in bed together (oil). The shit is hitting the fan, fast.

I wish that all of the people committing the atrocities against each other right now could channel that rage and become a fucking hero by taking it to DC. You know what I'm talking about.

/applaud

This is exactly why we shouldn't be talking about this shit.

Try not be an asshole?

Fuck you..

EDIT:  People are dying because the man in power is completely imcompetent and you guys don't want to talk about it because your feelings might get hurt.. I repeat:  "Fuck You"..

Now, while cevik's post could have been a little more eloquent, I think he's absolutely right. We should all be fucking outraged, and DO something about it this time instead of sitting on a pole. But we must fix the real problem first, since time is literally running out for the woman hiding in a stack of dead bodies so she won't get raped again, or the elderly man getting beat to death for his bottle of water. Shit is seriuosly this bad, and we need to bring in the big guns. Or, you know, the assholes at Fox News could cart a few people out on the chopper once in awhile.

Amen.

No shit people are dying. And you're making it about YOURSELF. Noble passion against the powers that be my ass.

I never said don't blame the people in power. I said give the people in power time to do their fucking jobs RIGHT NOW WHEN THEY ARE NEEDED, as opposed to dicking around with suppositions you can't support anyway. Let's schedule it about NEXT FUCKING WEEK.

You should know, I'm absolutely no supporter of Bush or his flimsy excuses for why things got fucked to hell and back. But grilling the FEMA director? Fuck you, reporters, I'm sure there are about 20 BILLION phone calls he could be making in that 30 seconds you spend blaming him for death and destruction. Next week when they have New Orleans evacuated (hopefully)? Roast his fucking nuts on a spit for all to see. Right now, delaying these people with stupid fucking questions they can't answer anyway is being a part of the problem. Next week, it's part of the solution to the problem.

As for BLAME? We want to toss around blame, we all need to suck down our share. We elected these people, either with our votes, or with our lack of votes to "throw the bums out." Their policies are extensions of our tacit approval of such. The consequences of this disaster are not things that happened last week, they are things that happened over years and decades of stupidity, shortsightedness and mismanagement. New Orleans and Louisiana in general has been a cesspool of corrupt, glad-handing politics. The Federal government has been awash in cronyism and pet pork barrel projects diverting dollars from all sorts of useful things like NASA or the Army Corps of Engineers.

And everyone of us has contributed to the gasoline problem by NOT reducing our own consumption of fuel and NOT forcing our politicians to research alternative energy sources and forcing them to raise fuel efficiency standards on cars.

If you think these gas prices are going to be temporary, think again. It's going to get worse before it gets better. I just had to move my car down a floor in the parking garage I use at work, because one block north of me, fucking looters were STEALING GAS OUT OF PARKED CARS. In a garage, no less. My garage also houses a police precinct and is across the street from a Federal building. Gas stations here continue to have hours long lines, when they even have gas, that is. And this town wasn't even hit that hard by the hurricane. 20-30 minutes drive south, and you've entered a fucking no-man's land. It's the goddamn 19th century out there. No power, no food, no gas, spotty to no phones, and if you are lucky, some cell phone coverage. That's in the good parts. There is also talk that Bellsouth, the biggest local phone provider in the area, might lose all or most of its services due to generators in Jackson failing or running out of gas.

Anyone else feel the terror alert should be escalated?

I mean, it's not like we watch a ton of TV or something.

Now I remember why I flagged you as "Stupid" the first time I read one of your posts.. glad to see I was right.. thanks..

No, 'cuz hurricanes are acts of God, not of terrorists.

Again, I am just so happy that Haem and SPT came away unscathed. Don't forget to sleep with a gun under yer pillow!

There is a thread in Politics about Katrina. Please feel free to continue the personal attacks and rhetoric there. Let's keep this thread focused on the storm and the relief efforts. Thanks.

I mean, it's sort of an opportune time to cripple American economics by hitting us with an attack while we're down.

Wow, man. The first time I read one of your posts, I thought you were a cool guy. Fucking seriously.  :x

Lol, aren't you just the beacon of goodwill and all that is right in the world....

Yeah... this is why the politics forum was invented, it's the place where we get to be dicks to eachother if we're so inclined.

Bah, they make your name green and you get all adult on us.. :p

Stray:  Don't take anything I say seriously.. I just enjoy yelling more than I enjoy actually making points..

You are right about the FEMA director and local guardsmen and such, Yes, they have better shit to do. owever, Bush does not. He's been on vacation for a month! Furthermore, us posting a message board isn't really distracting anyone.

I do understand your point. It's fine for people like us to bitch now, but the media getting up in some guy's grill isn't appropriate until the worst is over.




Well..I don't own a car. :) Seriously, there is only so much you can do without armed revolt. Our political system is just hopelessly fucked - its just bad guys and less bad guys. The idea that elected officials serve the best interests of America has been lost for years and years. Thre was a time when politicians were actually great thinkers, not just great talkers.


In the long run, ther is no reason to believe gas prices will do anything but keep going up much faster than inflation.

We seem to have this notion that no matter what happen, human ingenuity will find a way. When gas slows to a trickle all our brainiacs will figure out something else. That is probably true, but while they are figuring it out there will be death, disease, hardship, etc. Almost everything in our country is based on oil, which IS going to run out. Demand is growing, supply is not - it's a simple equation. Furthermore supply is finite, demand is not.

Of course, Dick Cheney told the US that energy conservation was a bad idea. And when people fight for things like better fuel efficiency, they are derided as granola-eating hippies and such.

Edit: OK now back to poltics!

Oil spilling into Mississippi below New Orleans (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/9175553)

Caskets Washing Up On Shores Of Mississippi (http://www.local6.com/weather/4923580/detail.html)

Heroes driving people to safety. (http://www.local6.com/weather/4929516/detail.html)

Ignorance is bliss. (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/02/BAG93EH39I1.DTL)

And the hits just keep on coming. This is beyond depressing at this point.

Depressing?  There's nothing to be depressed about!  Why, it's the perfect opportunity to take advantage of a vacationing Senate to rush through an appointment that would have been stuck in debate because she quite possibly endorsed torture!  What better time to hurry up with an important executive task than when the Senate might show up at any moment to push through some relief funding?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/01/AR2005090101449.html


When does the line get crossed?  The vast majority of people will never know this, or the fact that Nagin is a fucking hero (http://www.lakatrina.com/nagin.htm), becuase W is kissing babies in Mississippi today.

Not to everyone. (http://www.wnbc.com/politics/4930151/detail.html)

It's all cool, man. I know that you do, in fact, have a point though (yelling or not), and I agree with some of the complaints being raised. Though I tried to ward off political talk here, I'm not as politically passive as I might come off. I vote Libertarian "out of principle" (win or lose), and I'm definitely not a fan of Bush. I just think that that kind of passion, be it good or bad, might get out of hand here. Sorry if I offended, man.

I will say this about Nagin and the police in New Orleans. Their inability to act on the very first day of looting did not start at the individual level, it has to go back up the chain of command. It has to go to the Police Chief and the Mayor for issuing policies to the police. I believe that had these two guys had the authority to tell their officers "Shoot to kill looters" or even just shoot them. Sure, they could have even said, only shoot those idjits who are trying to drag off useless items or are physically hurting others, but something. All the reports I'm hearing are that the police had no idea what to do, had no training or orders about what to handle. Were they all out doing rescues? No, because we have numerous reports of cops standing by and watching the looting. So they were put out there on what amounts to riot duty with no real direction as to what to do, and they responded accordingly. Blame starts at the top and rolls downhill.

The FEMA director chose to talk to the press, if he could be better employed making 20 billion phone calls, you'd better believe I hold him responsible for wasting his time in front of cameras. One presumes somebody else is handling those calls. Clearly the man has chosen, wisely or not, to act as a figurehead and conduit to the press. There's good reason to throw criticism in his direction - perhaps it will give him a needed wakeup call that there is a disconnect somewhere in his organisation:

FEMA disconnects (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.response/index.html)

I am not sure why anybody is calling the mayor of NO a hero. The leadership in this should have first come from mayor then from the govenor and last from the feds. Unfortunatly the first two apparently passed the buck and the blame on to the feds. Yes for the larger scale stuff you need to call in the feds but when the local leadership fell back on whining about the feds and not showing any real leadership the problems just got that much worse.

So, if you're begging for help and you don't get it from the people who are supposed to give it to you, then that means that you fucked up? How much larger scale does this need to be for the fucking feds to step in? Like I said, hurricanes are an Act of God, not terrorists, and this time instead of rich white execs getting hammered it's poor black folk. Gee, I wonder why the ass-dragging on the federal end?

He can't be blamed for what the feds do or don't do, so long as he's made the proper requests.  He can be blamed for the behavior of NOPD and other city officials.

Touche. But really, what can he even do about them? Fire them?

Edit: also, it doens't seem like Nagin is trying to weasel out of getting blamed for anything, he just wants some relief.

F13.net, now with 35% more opinions!  Lets keep this focused on the disaster and keep opinions in the shithole, aka Politics.  Thank you.

Leave the modding to the mods, k?

_{This post does not need a response. Suriously.}

There's a politics board here?

Yes. It's next to the front page.

There's a front page here?

Grrrr. *Snarl*

Hahaha.  I have no idea why, but you're growl made me smile.  Not like a smirk or lol, but just a big shit-eating grin.   





ps.  Thanks.

Yeah, for starters.  Take away their badge and gun so that they don't encourage more problems by their presense.  Really, I don't know that he's done anything specifically wrong.  It looks from here (yeah yeah, so easy to arm chair things) that there is a lack of direction to the PD, because it's not just one or two people.  Cops looting?  This isn't getting food and water, this is opening the doors to the building and letting it be ravaged.  It's not that Wal-Mart hasn't written off the whole thing as a loss already anyhow, but it encourages chaos in the city.  It's encouraging people to give into the mob mentality and give up on control.  Citizens feel like there is no direction, and that tells me that the people in charge are not giving much direction - of which, the mayor is one.

(http://www.junkyardblog.net/images/NO-buses.jpg) (http://junkyardblog.net/archives/week_2005_08_28.html#004749)


Take a look at the picture of the schoolbusses and tell me that the evacuation of the city was well handled. They had a couple days before it hit to prevent things like this which could have been a huge asset to just another sad loss. This kind of thing you can lay right at the feet of the mayor.


kaid

10 Mind-Numbingly Stupid Quotes About Hurricane Katrina And Its Aftermath (http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/currentevents/a/katrinaquotes.htm)

LSU QB puts up Fats Domino & family for two days (http://www.nola.com/newsflash/national/index.ssf?/base/news-18/112569535129913.xml&storylist=hurricane)

Breaking: "Authorities say a busload of Hurricane Katrina evacuees has overturned, killing one man."

Halliburton hired for storm cleanup (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/3335685)

Mo' money, mo' money, mo' money.

However, given the ongoing situation in the city, I am forced to make an extremely difficult decision – Tulane University cannot hold a fall semester on its campus. (http://emergency.tulane.edu/)

To quote Haemish:
RAGE

I have no idea why, but that makes me really, really fucking angry. Everything that happens makes Bush and Co. profit. Everything.

There are several threads in politics where you can happily bust people's chops.  I started the first one in hopes that we could deliver flames, deserved and otherwise, there.  I know it is not my job to moderate, but as somebody who has been plenty critical, I do feel some need to give those who want a bit of peace and support some safe place.  Shelter is more than just a roof.

Toward that end, let me offer some positive bits from the Chicago area that likely haven't made the national news.

Radio station WXRT raffled off Rolling Stones tickets hourly for two days to anyone who sent them a $100+ donation receipt from the Red Cross.  The got more than $200,000 in reciepts.

Other local media outlets are doing similar stuff.

McCormick-Tribune is collecting donations, and is paying 100% of the administrative costs themselves.  All the money collected will go on to relief.

Rapper Kanye West held a benefit concert.  Many of the musicians in town for this weekend's Jazz Festival are doing benefit performances in local clubs before and during the Festival.  The Festival will also be donating a portion of it's proceeds.  Other events in town are also doing this.

The Govenor sent about 100 Illinois Gaurd troops a couple of days ago.  There is a medical unit from the City of Chicago in the area now, and Mayor Daley has offered to contribute several hundred city workers, with equipment and logistical support, including police, medical, SAR, Streets and Sanitation, and Engineering staff.  The Mayor of Toronto has contacted the mayor of Chicago about the Canadian Mayor's conference sending money, supplies, and people to help.

Many Chicago families have relatives in the Gulf Coast area.  They have opened their homes to their relatives on a long term basis, and their neighbors have offered to help them with supplies and bed space.

Perhaps something good has happened near you that you would care to relate.

YEah, I was wondering what happened to the Deep South rappers like C-Murder who brag about being from NO. Now that they're millionaires, what're they doing to help?

Bold mine.

See, now I intentionally left out that part of Daly's news conference.  You don't have to be Fox News to focus on the positive.

Other good things, one of the Chicago Bulls set up a foundation to aid his hometown of Slidel, which was wiped out in the storm.

The Salvation Army has sent it's portable phone center down to help refugees contact relatives.

Ok, now I'm going to go say something pissy in politics.

What the hell does a shit-eating grin look like?

Please do not answer the above question, I only barely avoided the imagery as it was.

Other nice things:

Among the help that is being offered by foriegn governments is this from an MSNBC story.


Among the places passing the hat, Bosnia and Kosovo.

And somethings have gone right. Nobody dies at NOLA hospital. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9179702/site/newsweek/) Although they had to do it largely on their own.

I have to admit I wonder what the long term affects of all this will be. Seriously. It's been discussed in this thread already but in recent memory nothing has affected the U.S. this badly. Hell, this is worse than September 11th by far. I just recently got a job for my state government (Oklahoma) and I am so thankful for it.

I also wonder what the U.S. having these kinds of problems will do to the rest of the world. We know it'll affect Canada, and probably Central and South America. But really, if our economy takes a huge hit that's gonna have ripple affects across the ocean as well.

God, let's hope that Al Queda doesn't take this chance to hit us. Nail another port or an oil refinery and things could get really scary.

It would be enormously stupid for any terrorist group to do something like that at this moment, nevermind that it's awful and stupid by it's nature.  Not only would it evaporate a majority of the current contempt borne towards us by our "allies", but our whole culture has a history of becoming awfully violent when we feel like we are being backed into a corner.  It's a part of what makes the american society both fantastic and horrific at the same time.

As much as the global community dislikes US foreign policy at the moment, a terrorist attack would garner a lot of support for any kind of retribution.

Ignoring the logic that the big probably went to them years before the disaster (or at least in 2004), I can only say:

WE'VE GIVEN THESE COCKBLISTERS TOO MUCH TAXPAYER MONEY.

And oddly enough, very few people care.

People are stupid.  We're in the 'circus and gladiator' part of the Empire timeline.  Next comes the infiltration of outside forces and decay from within before being overtoppled by a 'barbarian' culture.   :-P

Luckily, Gordon Freeman and a band of City 17 citizen rebels have taken over operations.

(http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/US/09/06/katrina.impact/top.katrina.tue.01.ap.jpg)

The gravity guns will come in very handy for the levee repairs.

Hmm, good news, that's tough.  Almost anything is good news at this point.  We regained power at a Baton Rouge plant on Friday and internet access in Gulfport.  Maybe that sounds tangentally related to the relief effort, and it is tangental to the immediate life-saving shit, but getting the industry back into operation is important for local families and the country as a whole.

I'd comment on the other junk, but you might have noticed that I don't ever go into the Politics forum.  There will be plenty of time for kicking the Homeland Security Dept's underdeveloped nutsack in the next couple of years.

Same has happened to U of New Orleans, Loyola U, Southern U, and Dillard U. Many schools have offered to accept students from those universities.

If I wasn't a lazy bastard, I'd make a blanket: The Homeland Security Blanket. It'd be more effective than anything else they've done. Mascot would be Linus, of course (not torvalds).

For more good news, you might know that my company is supplying bagged and boxed water to FEMA and the Defense Logistics Agency (including Camp Shelby).  Know also that we have secured the New Orleans manufacturing plant and have allowed the Jefferson Parish Police to use the facility as a staging area.  There were about one million cases of product in the plant when the storm hit, and all of it that is salvageable will be donated to the relief effort.

(http://www.pandadesigns.com/misc/smiles/arms.gif)

I spose they could always send Kenny Rogers after photographers that violate the "request".

So what if you're a firefighter? We need people to hand out fliers! (http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3004197)

More priorities mixed up.

Navy Pilots Who Rescued Victims Are Reprimanded (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/07/national/nationalspecial/07navy.html)

Probably need to register for the New York Times, the article was too long to quote.

Not that I am terribly interested in seeing dead bodies, but I think the country and the world needs to see the full scope of this disaster. Notice that we got an eye full of the dead tsunami victims...but that wasn't bad press for the administration. I will save any further comment for the poo flinging in Politics.

The galling piece of that story is that these guys are leaving their own towns shorthanded to do something you can get teenaged kids from a charity car wash to do.

Not sure what you are driving at here.  The city is filled with toxic waste, and at least some of the fires may have been started by candles in people's homes.

It's closing time, drink up and get out.  Come back when we've mopped the floor and got the john unplugged.

It's an interesting picture, I'm not driving at anything. Plus, you can't see color. Go away.

The reflections are so much more colorful than the actual lights.  That's due to the toxins in the water, yes?

Or shitty camera?

Google map for critical information:
http://www.scipionus.com/

Fuck you, FEMA, we'll do it ourselves.

Our system provided two truckloads of water to a hospital in Bougaloosa(?), LA.  They were virtually out of water for patients when our shipment arrived.  We are still providing truckloads of water and other products to FEMA and other products to the Astrodome, churches and community centers in the area.  Naturally we are also supplying water to military personnel and depndents as well.

We committed to supplying FEMA facilities with 20 truckloads of "bag-in-box" water ~2.5 gallons each, and 20 truckloads (~11,000 cases) of 12-ounce cans of water daily.  Some cool people located taps to fill the BIB containers with water, which are normally used for syrup.

I fully admit I'm in a very bad mood right now (see my repeated responses in the Politics threads), but you know what pisses me off the most?

In Bangladesh, disasters of this magnitude happen every year. Hundreds of thousands of people die, but it's mostly ignored by the press.

In Iraq prior to the first US invasion, more people died every single month soley to entertain Suddam Hussein than have died in the entire Katrina disaster so far worldwide.

There are more than 150 US cities with larger populations than NO, and the federal disaster preparation budget is spread across all of them. No matter WHICH city got hit, gov't looks bad, period.

How many people here are yelling at their politicians to fund asteroid impact avoidance tactics? Because the risk/damage ratio of that happening is thousands of times greater than what happened in NO...we're talking complete destruction of the human race, and it is guaranteed to happen...it's happened already, and guess what? It's due!

Armchair quarterback all you want. Blame the republicans, blame the gov't, blame Bush all you want...I'm sitting here right now myself blaming the welfare-oriented politicians that let individuals live in obvious diaster-prone areas such as the below sea level portions of NO, and actually funded building housing for them there, while listening to these forums bitch that the current adminstration can't bail them out of such completely idiotic housing plans.

Do you honestly think that Bush should be responsible for bailing out the rediculously short sighted welfare-oriented (ok, I'll say it: Democratic) plans that let those people live there in the first place?

Whatever.

Let's ignore racial profiling here for a minute, and go for political profiling: Anyone have any idea what the percentage of republican vs. democratic political affiliations are represented in the populace that didn't evacuate? What's amazingly sad is that most of the pro-democrats are going to immediately turn my statements here around and say that it's the republican's fault that they "let" these people live there, and didn't plan to save their sorry asses when the idiocy of those funding plans became obvious...

Way to ignore the economic and military significance of NO.  Or the fact that there's been a city there longer than there's been a Democratic OR Republican party.  No, really, let's just raze the whole area, because there's NO PLACE suitable to build outside of the French Quarter.  We don't need a port at the one spot in the US that 2/3 of it's waterways drain through anyway.

For the record, since the US invasion more Iraqis have died then during Saddam's rule. For the average Iraqi life got a lot more dangerous the past couple of years. That's not all that surprising and not just the Americans blame as the country has seen a relentless, bloody insurgency.


Can't be 100 % on this, but I think that's quite a bit exaggerated too. Floods do often happen, but the death count usually remains on the low side (though you certainly wouldn't want to live there).

To reply more to your point, as with the aftermath of any disaster, it's being used as political ammunition by about everyone. If I try to be objective it seems to me that FEMA has failed badly, which is a federal organisation and indeed Bushs responsibility. But Louisiana has also been let down by it's (democrat) senators and governor. But it's still a bit early to see things clearly, all we can be sure off at this moment is that it didn't go very well.

Anyone remember the amusing parts of the British comedy "The Office" or its American spin-off where the Boss would have to constantly correct that one little twerp about being the Assistant to the Manager, not the Assistant Manager?

Well, the head of FEMA must of thought it was very funny too. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050909/ts_nm/katrina_dc)

The only emergency experience he has is akin to being an intern, same with five other top FEMA people.  They did however have connections in the white house from working on Bush's 2000 campaign and such.

*cough* geologic timescale *cough*

Due, in this instance, means sometime in the next million years or so.

Even cuter is his assertion he was a professor at a university whose records show he was a student.

Yay us.

I don't think they have got a firm grip on the period yet.  Given that the result would be fatal to most if not all of the human species, it is at least worth trying to nail down the probability more closely, which I believe is an ongoing project.  Not sure I'm disagreeing with either of you here.

Breaking news from CNN:

FEMA director Michael Brown being sent back to Washington; Homeland Security Director Chertoff to announce new leader for on-the-ground Katrina relief efforts, senior administration official tells CNN. Details soon.

Sorry to get off topic, but Shockeye, WTF is going on in your picture?  Is that SirBruce?

It's one of those LARP gatherings. 'nuff said.

Way to ignore the fact that a very good portion of the city is fine and dandy, because it is above sea level. I'll have more information when my business partner gets back from his survey trip back to his home and offices in NO (he should be on his way back now), but he doesn't live in the French Quarter, and initial reports is some relatively minor damage.

I spent 2.5 months in Bangladesh helping them build a national flood disaster recovery plan. One of the data points we used was 200,000+ dead every year from floods and flood related diseases, as well as historical data from their worst floods in the past.

What's interesting is that evacuation was the easy part...no infrastructure combined with walking as the primary means of transport actually makes it easier to move large amounts of people...the main problems were notification and supply logistics post disaster...pretty much exactly what we are seeing now, except that Bangladeshi's don't tend to try to kill the people delivering them food and water.

Good god, Shockeye.  Did that girl in your avatar pic get beat with a rotten steak or what?    What were they LARPing?  What's Love Got to Do With It?   Is she playing Tina?  And, oh look, that guy scoping her out must be Ike!

As far as I can tell, the dude on the right is an elf that's into undead chicks.

We have hurricanes which hit land and cause damage EVERY FUCKING YEAR, yet no asteroids that cause the yearly damage of hurricanes. So I don't see why most people would be yelling at policiticians to build asteroid impact avoidance tactics over hurricane avoidance tactics. Also, do we even have any technology that can reliably be called an asteroid avoidance tool? Other than Bruce Willis and Ben Affleck, that is.

Hurricanes hit every year. Many reports said that of all the cities in the US and all the possible disasters, the 3 most likely disasters that WILL happen are a catastrophic hurricane in NO, a terrorist attack in NY, and an earthquake in SF. I'd think we'd make some preparations for those things that didn't include ignoring the problem still most of the poor people in the area drowned or died of starvation and infection.

You're so full of shit, I can only be bothered to point one thing out.
Bangladesh is flooded almost every year. It's often devasting, it's costly and millions are affected by it. But in the worst flood in Bangladesh' modern history, the flood of 1998, "only" 1400 people were killed - if the numbers from NO is lower than that I'll publicly apologized to you. Untill then: Moron!

But you don't live in the shithole that is Bangladesh, you live in the richest country in the fucking world. Using all that money fighting a far away war while not being able to protect or even rescue your own citizens is what a lot of people don't understand. You, well you're a moron.

On average Americans are four times more wealthy than the people of Malaysia, yet the two countries have the same child mortality rates.
For 50 years child mortality rates in the US has been going down - since 2000 they've been on the rise again.
The child mortality rate for a black child living in Washington, D.C. is higher than that of a child living in Kerala, India.

And again you tell me that nothing is out of whack and that Bush isn't to blame for any of this?! Did I mention, that I think you're a moron?

Politics, please. I don't feel right raising a shitstorm in General.

But I love a good shitstorm.

The perfect shitstorm.

You know, before this comment, I never had a mental image of a shitstorm.  Now I do.

I'll forgive you, someday.

Breaking News: Head of FEMA resigns.

It's a start.

He will get a lucrative job as a consultant from one of the Bush crony firms as soon as the smoke clears. Good soldiers who fall on their swords are always rewarded.

The underside of that carpet is getting pretty crowded....