The Perfect Storm

[Evangolis]

Also, I didn't watch Dateline last night, but just heard about this.  A big FUCK YOU to the reporter who cornered the Army Engineer and made it seem like his personal callousness is what caused the levee to be designed for 'only' a cat 3.   If they don't have the money given to them to build for a cat 5, it's not going to happen. It's that simple.  Someone, somewhere looked at the numbers on a page and said "Oh, that'll never happen it's not worth the extra billion."  THAT is the man you should be pissed at, in addition to the budget cuts to Flood/ wetlands protection that have been made over the last 6 years, not the corps.   America, you elected the dumbfucks, now we're all paying for it.

I did watch that, and it wasn't a hostile sort of thing, much more matter of fact.  He just laid the answer out, it was cat 3 because that was what was cost-effective, and the reporter pointed out that that choice doesn't look very cost-effective now.  Just the painful truth.  And I wouldn't blame anyone person for these choices, I'm sure it was all considered, debated and voted on; everyone from local zoning boards through the federal government participated in this process.  That includes us, the citizenry of the country.  Even the ones who didn't vote.  "You who decide not to decide, you still have made a choice."

We, as a society, have made choices that let this happen.  No doubt that most thought that this would not happen in our lifetimes, but we lost that bet, and we will now have to pay the cost of it.  This is the downside of smaller government and lower taxes, oh, not all of it, even with full-on anti-development policies and more government bureacracy, Katrina would have been a horror, but our choices have made it worse.  That sucks, but that is just the way it is.

[tazelbain]

I am for rebuilding NO, but I am not for rebuilding the parts under sea-level. So I guess I am not in favor of rebuilding NO if 80% of it is.

[Daeven]

I'm just going to preface all my jokes with this so people don't get bothered or thinking that I'm not taking the situation seriously.

Humor is how I deal with stuff like this, ignore it or join me-
According to their Senator, they "absolutely" plan to rebuild.  Think they'll call it "New New Orleans"?

Humor is also the way I deal with shit like this. Also remember that for people even close to this, even a joke can sting pretty hard. Also, I'm going to be replying to posts as I get to them, because I haven't been much on the boards the last week.

My suggestion has been to rename the motherfucker Atlantis. Move west a few miles and start again, someplace that isn't stuck below sea level between the Father of Rivers and a giant fucking Lake.

New Venice work for anyone else?

[Shockeye]

I'm sure they were just looking for Pampers and Strained Peas.

Oakwood mall on fire
Looters set fire to Oakwood Shopping Center in Terrytown today.

The fire was reported at 12:56 p.m., and firefighters fought the blaze for more than an hour before giving up, said Bryan Adams of the Terrytown Volunteer Fire Department.

"There's just no water and the fire was out of hand,'' an emotional Adams said, adding that crews had to fight the blaze with one hose and water from a canal. "I've lived in this communitiy all my life --45 years. It's tough.''

Adams said the fire was intentionally set in multiple locations by people who apparently went in to loot the mall. Authorities found a ladder on the side of a building and a vent ripped off the roof allowed suspects to gain access, he said.

[Strazos]

For comparison's sake:

8/31/05
5:09 AM
9.466 gallons (regular) at $2.649 = $25.08

9/01/05
5:02 PM
10.36 gallons (premium) at $3.499 = $36.25


There is usually a 10-30 cent gap between regular and premium around here, but this is silly. I saw a station near my school that was selling premium for $4+.

[Llava]

Yea, gas for me is $3.17 a gallon. Fucking 30 cents more than regular unleaded. Blurgh, fuck you premium.

West valley is still hovering around $2.99.

And we have no black widows.

Eastern Valley, 2.999 for Unleaded, add about 15 cents for Extra, add another 15 for Supreme

EDIT

Let's make this easy:
http://gasbuddy.com/

[Roac]

Gas stations in the city are starting to close, due to being out of gas.  Last posted prices were at $3.30+/gal, where they were about $2.60/gal a week ago.  Stations running out of gas is really bad, because that's lost profit.  They can't jack prices to cover low supply - they have no supply to sell, and they're going to have to recover the losses.  I worry about gas prices not going below the $3 mark anytime soon, despite reports of refineries starting up some operations again.  That's a massive drag on the economy, at a point when we're already modestly extended into the Iraq effort.  I'm not saying this to ignore the very real and present human cost in NO; what I fear is that this is an ugly wound that could set the US up for another tradgedy.

[Righ]

Gasoline prices and supply are an unwelcome but ultimately temporary setback. The bigger issue is that New Orleans is a port for imports and exports that fuel industry. Many of these goods cannot economically be transported another way, and so it is imperitive that the ports be brought back online soon. Ports require workers, workers require lodging, food, medical facilties, police, schools, etc. The major industrial and port facilities can be brought back online in a fairly short order of time, and the impact will be significant but short-lived. However, the residental and support infrastructure facilities required to support the employees will take much much longer to put into place. During that time, many of the skilled workers will relocate and find employment elsewhere and it will take strong incentives to draw people into an undesirable and potentially dangerous work enviroment. It will be done, because, quite apart from its importance in the oil industry, New Orleans has always been one of the most important ports. We will bear the cost however heavy it is because we have to.

[Margalis]

I don't think gas prices are as temporary as you might think. The fact is, supply stays the same and demand keeps going up. In a couple of years we'll be at $5 a gallon. And of course, not only will gas itself be more expensive, but everything that relies on gas will be more expensive - which is just about everything.

Obviously this spike will go back down a bit, but gas prices are going to keep going up, and that rate will increase.

[Righ]

That's understood. However, I feel that the setbacks from higher gasoline prices will be more temporary. We can and will adapt to the ever increasing worldwide demand and costs. Real world prices adjusted for inflation will come down from this spike even if dollar prices remain high. There is likely to be something of an employment and trade recession as a result of one our largest ports being economically dysfuntional for several years however. Everything that relies on resources with low value to weight ratios (and therefore shipping and barges) will rise in price much more drastically than those of higher value that rely just on gas.

[Calantus]

Which means somebody will be making more money. There's always a silver-spoon lining.

[cevik]

Which means somebody will be making more money. There's always a silver-spoon lining.

Have I told you guys about all the great stuff I've been able to buy since I took the oil and gas job?

[Soln]

That's understood. However, I feel that the setbacks from higher gasoline prices will be more temporary. We can and will adapt to the ever increasing worldwide demand and costs. Real world prices adjusted for inflation will come down from this spike even if dollar prices remain high. There is likely to be something of an employment and trade recession as a result of one our largest ports being economically dysfuntional for several years however. Everything that relies on resources with low value to weight ratios (and therefore shipping and barges) will rise in price much more drastically than those of higher value that rely just on gas.

I think the effects of this combined with already high oil prices, Iraq, intermittent terrorism, and still to be confronted problems (e.g. diseases, 500k+ displaced people in the U.S.) are going to prolongue any temporary inconvenience from high pump prices.  Because all of the those issues (Iraq, oil, terrorism, middle east, etc.) are *not* temporary problems.  They are not controllable or determinate, predictable.  There is no quick fix for them and there is no quick sense of what NO will have on the U.S. economy and society.  Can this disaster be easily absorbed?  The U.S. is deeply engaged in structuring world markets and politics -- this is a deep and unexpected strain domestically that it hasn't budgeted for people-wise (armed forces) or fiscally.  And you guys can tell me better than I can speculate -- how good is the current U.S. domestic infrastructure (e.g. welfare, healthcare, road/electrification, etc.).   Can this domestic crisis be easily absorbed?  I believe this is going to with us for awhile and we haven't seen all the corners of yet to understand what it's real impact will be across the country (and yes, Canada will be effected as well because of our close economy and culture).

[Roac]

And you guys can tell me better than I can speculate -- how good is the current U.S. domestic infrastructure (e.g. welfare, healthcare, road/electrification, etc.).   Can this domestic crisis be easily absorbed?

Well, I'm speculating as much as you are, but my overall feeling is yes, the US can absorb it.  The US still has the best economy in the world (side Q - for how long?), and it is a very large country with an array of resources.  I do think there are going to be a lot of harsh bruises from this that will last for some time.  I am not optimistic about gas prices, which affect almost everything else in the US economy.  One of our largest ports is crippled and near-useless for a month, which is a massive hamstring to import/export.  Much of NO will be uninhabitable for a  while, but infastructure outside the immediate area is either still operational, or will be before too long. 

The biggest impact on the rest of the nation will be just one of cost.  Everything will get more expensive, resulting in an overall drain on the economy and growth.  The second is a drain on manpower in emergency services, and both these situations combine to make us more vulnerable to another attack, whether terrorist, military or natural. 

[Merusk]

The part that has me worried is this happened in August.  We still have another 3 months of Hurricane season, with September being the worst month for storms and we've already seen 12 tropical storms this year. (Lee already formed and dissipated about a day or 2 ago)  Another storm hitting another part of the country hard, or worse still THAT part of the country, things can go downhill fast.

[Soln]

The part that has me worried is this happened in August.  We still have another 3 months of Hurricane season, with September being the worst month for storms and we've already seen 12 tropical storms this year. (Lee already formed and dissipated about a day or 2 ago)  Another storm hitting another part of the country hard, or worse still THAT part of the country, things can go downhill fast.

Soledad O'Brien on CNN this morning was trying to grill the FEMA Director and asked him the same question and what his plans were to deal with it.  Also, and mabye more importantly, she asked (close paraphrase): "How come we were dropping food on the second day after the Tsunami in Bande Aceh and we haven't been able to NO??"  To which she got spin.   

[Fargull]

The biggest impact on the rest of the nation will be just one of cost.  Everything will get more expensive, resulting in an overall drain on the economy and growth.  The second is a drain on manpower in emergency services, and both these situations combine to make us more vulnerable to another attack, whether terrorist, military or natural. 

Roac,

I don't know.  To be honest, with the direction the administration has taken (if it has actually taken one) on Katrina, the recent history of seeming imperialism (by a non-US world view), I wonder if the true impact of Katrina will again be the narrowing of the rest of the global communities view of the US.

From Yahoo via Reuters

Nice that we were the top, but the global warming to the US seems to be taking a glacial path.  Especially (as has been pointed out) when our government has badly handled the aftermath of Katrina.

[Strazos]

Oddly, as I watch this stuff on the news....the Gov't dragging its feet, people yelling for help, and the mass looting and chaos....

I can't say that I am suprised by any of it.

[HaemishM]

Besides, let he who read The Stand and didn't think of that one "cool" item he'd steal if he were one of the survivors cast the first stone.. I know I was planning on going after a high end motorcylce myself.. just me an my bike and the plague ridden land mutherfuckerz!

How far down the evolutionary scale do we as human beings have to devolve before "desperation" just isn't a fucking excuse anymore? Seriously, I've read and seen many reports of people stealing jewelry and TV's. People stealing food? No problem. But the cocksucking cockroaches stealing TV's, then SHOOTING POLICE AND MILITARY IN THE HEAD when the police try to do their normal jobs, that I get fucking upset about. Reading about people in the Convention Center getting beaten and raped, and the police not being allowed in and driven off when trying to help? People taking potshots at military helicopters trying to offload food to the very people shooting at them? How much slack do you give?

It has nothing to do with race or creed or color or class, because if you are in New Orleans (or one of the other affected and cut off areas), it's all equal. Money means shit. There are good, innocent people down there fucking dying because no one can get in for fear of being shot at. I understand these people's anger, frustration and desperation. But they have lost all rationality when they start storming the barricades, stepping over each other and attacking the rescuers when said rescuers attempt to help. They are impeding their own rescue. How long til they resort to cannibalism?

The city seems to be eating itself alive, and the worst part is that it is very few agitators and idiots causing trouble for all the rest who just want to fucking live.

As for the national reporters who are jumping all over FEMA, Bush and anyone else they can in an attempt to stir up some controversy over the relief efforts, FUCK THEM. I know they have to find a story. But you know what? The time to start attacking people in positions of power is not while those same people are trying to save fucking lives. I think it's akin to walking down to 9-11 Ground Zero on 9-12, and yelling at the Police Chief because they aren't finding bodies fast enough. There will be more than enough time for the shit sandwich that will have to swallowed over the cost-cutting and mismanagement that has led New Orleans to this. Let's get people fucking rescued before we start tossing blame.

[Strazos]

Like I said before, it's time to resort to more aggressive measures. Send those rescuers in with armed guards.

If they get shot at, simply return fire. It's not like you Really want to rescue the type of people who shoot at aid workers, anyway.

[Cheddar]

Like I said before, it's time to resort to more aggressive measures. Send those rescuers in with armed guards.

If they get shot at, simply return fire. It's not like you Really want to rescue the type of people who shoot at aid workers, anyway.

They have been doing this (going around with armed guards, kinda have to due to the rape, robbery, and murder).  The ramifications of a shoot to kill policy would have far reaching effects.  Sorry to say, but in todays PC climate you cannot do that to American citizens.  Our greatest weakness is our respect to human life, and ya know what, I can live with that.  I cannot live with Gangsta Terrys family suing the US government because their son was killed while stealing some Nikes.  Ladies and gentlement, we have to live in the constraints of our society, and that is how it is.

[cevik]

and the worst part is that it is very few agitators and idiots causing trouble for all the rest who just want to fucking live.

My point exactly.. You guys are busy blaming the victims when it's really a VERY SMALL part of the population causing trouble..

As for the national reporters who are jumping all over FEMA, Bush and anyone else they can in an attempt to stir up some controversy over the relief efforts, FUCK THEM. I know they have to find a story. But you know what? The time to start attacking people in positions of power is not while those same people are trying to save fucking lives. I think it's akin to walking down to 9-11 Ground Zero on 9-12, and yelling at the Police Chief because they aren't finding bodies fast enough. There will be more than enough time for the shit sandwich that will have to swallowed over the cost-cutting and mismanagement that has led New Orleans to this. Let's get people fucking rescued before we start tossing blame.

OHHHHH NOEEESSS!!1! YOU CAN'T POINT OUT THAT WE FUCKED UP!!! IT'S NOT FAIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRR!!!1!!!

What do you expect?  The people in power fucked up.. BIG TIME.. it's time to point out that they fucked up.. BIG TIME.. I'm sick of this "WE CAN'T TALK ABOUIT THE FACT THAT WE FUCKED UP!!!1! NOW IS NOT THE TTTTTTTTTIIIIMMMMMEEEE!!1!!@" bullshit that Bush tries to pull EVERY FUCKING TIME HE FUCKS UP.. you know what, NOW IS THE TIME.. IT'S TIME TO START TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU FUCKED UP THE COUNTRY.. don't want to hear it?  TOO BAD, LESS FUCKING UP OF THE COUNTRY NEXT TIME.. so fuck you and your apologetic sensitive self.. if Bush doesn't want to be blamed for fucking shit up, he shouldn't have fucked shit up..

And I have bad news for you buddy, look at the polls, you're WAY in the minority on this one.. people have finally grown tired of watching shit get fucked up and listening to Frist get on Larry King and say "Ohh no, it's not PATRIOTIC to talk about how we fucked up, now is the time for us to come together"...

You fuckers bitch about the "PC Climate" that we live in.. always complaining that some unamable group of people out there are trying to force you into being Politically Correct, then as soon as we start pointing out the fact that you fucked up the country you get all "OHHHH IT"S HORRIBLE!!!1! LISTEN TO YOU!!1! YOU DON'T LOVE US".. I have a suggestion:  Grow a consistent belief system you fucking twit..

[voodoolily]

Yeah, this isn't really something that the US as a whole can accept responsibility for, considering only half of us voted for Bush, and of those, only a certain fraction think the war is just. Money was pulled from improving the levees to fund this war that has had no positive outcome. And now Venezuela and Iran are in bed together (oil). The shit is hitting the fan, fast.

I wish that all of the people committing the atrocities against each other right now could channel that rage and become a fucking hero by taking it to DC. You know what I'm talking about.

[stray]

and the worst part is that it is very few agitators and idiots causing trouble for all the rest who just want to fucking live.

My point exactly.. You guys are busy blaming the victims when it's really a VERY SMALL part of the population causing trouble..

As for the national reporters who are jumping all over FEMA, Bush and anyone else they can in an attempt to stir up some controversy over the relief efforts, FUCK THEM. I know they have to find a story. But you know what? The time to start attacking people in positions of power is not while those same people are trying to save fucking lives. I think it's akin to walking down to 9-11 Ground Zero on 9-12, and yelling at the Police Chief because they aren't finding bodies fast enough. There will be more than enough time for the shit sandwich that will have to swallowed over the cost-cutting and mismanagement that has led New Orleans to this. Let's get people fucking rescued before we start tossing blame.

OHHHHH NOEEESSS!!1! YOU CAN'T POINT OUT THAT WE FUCKED UP!!! IT'S NOT FAIIIIIIIIIIRRRRRRR!!!1!!!

What do you expect?  The people in power fucked up.. BIG TIME.. it's time to point out that they fucked up.. BIG TIME.. I'm sick of this "WE CAN'T TALK ABOUIT THE FACT THAT WE FUCKED UP!!!1! NOW IS NOT THE TTTTTTTTTIIIIMMMMMEEEE!!1!!@" bullshit that Bush tries to pull EVERY FUCKING TIME HE FUCKS UP.. you know what, NOW IS THE TIME.. IT'S TIME TO START TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU FUCKED UP THE COUNTRY.. don't want to hear it?  TOO BAD, LESS FUCKING UP OF THE COUNTRY NEXT TIME.. so fuck you and your apologetic sensitive self.. if Bush doesn't want to be blamed for fucking shit up, he shouldn't have fucked shit up..

And I have bad news for you buddy, look at the polls, you're WAY in the minority on this one.. people have finally grown tired of watching shit get fucked up and listening to Frist get on Larry King and say "Ohh no, it's not PATRIOTIC to talk about how we fucked up, now is the time for us to come together"...

You fuckers bitch about the "PC Climate" that we live in.. always complaining that some unamable group of people out there are trying to force you into being Politically Correct, then as soon as we start pointing out the fact that you fucked up the country you get all "OHHHH IT"S HORRIBLE!!!1! LISTEN TO YOU!!1! YOU DON'T LOVE US".. I have a suggestion:  Grow a consistent belief system you fucking twit..

/applaud

This is exactly why we shouldn't be talking about this shit.

Try not be an asshole?

[cevik]

/applaud

This is exactly why we shouldn't be talking about this shit.

Try not be an asshole?

Fuck you..

EDIT:  People are dying because the man in power is completely imcompetent and you guys don't want to talk about it because your feelings might get hurt.. I repeat:  "Fuck You"..

[voodoolily]

Now, while cevik's post could have been a little more eloquent, I think he's absolutely right. We should all be fucking outraged, and DO something about it this time instead of sitting on a pole. But we must fix the real problem first, since time is literally running out for the woman hiding in a stack of dead bodies so she won't get raped again, or the elderly man getting beat to death for his bottle of water. Shit is seriuosly this bad, and we need to bring in the big guns. Or, you know, the assholes at Fox News could cart a few people out on the chopper once in awhile.

[Shockeye]

Or, you know, the assholes at Fox News could cart a few people out on the chopper once in awhile.

Amen.

[stray]

/applaud

This is exactly why we shouldn't be talking about this shit.

Try not be an asshole?

Fuck you..

EDIT:  People are dying because the man in power is completely imcompetent and you guys don't want to talk about it because your feelings might get hurt.. I repeat:  "Fuck You"..

No shit people are dying. And you're making it about YOURSELF. Noble passion against the powers that be my ass.

[HaemishM]

I never said don't blame the people in power. I said give the people in power time to do their fucking jobs RIGHT NOW WHEN THEY ARE NEEDED, as opposed to dicking around with suppositions you can't support anyway. Let's schedule it about NEXT FUCKING WEEK.

You should know, I'm absolutely no supporter of Bush or his flimsy excuses for why things got fucked to hell and back. But grilling the FEMA director? Fuck you, reporters, I'm sure there are about 20 BILLION phone calls he could be making in that 30 seconds you spend blaming him for death and destruction. Next week when they have New Orleans evacuated (hopefully)? Roast his fucking nuts on a spit for all to see. Right now, delaying these people with stupid fucking questions they can't answer anyway is being a part of the problem. Next week, it's part of the solution to the problem.

As for BLAME? We want to toss around blame, we all need to suck down our share. We elected these people, either with our votes, or with our lack of votes to "throw the bums out." Their policies are extensions of our tacit approval of such. The consequences of this disaster are not things that happened last week, they are things that happened over years and decades of stupidity, shortsightedness and mismanagement. New Orleans and Louisiana in general has been a cesspool of corrupt, glad-handing politics. The Federal government has been awash in cronyism and pet pork barrel projects diverting dollars from all sorts of useful things like NASA or the Army Corps of Engineers.

And everyone of us has contributed to the gasoline problem by NOT reducing our own consumption of fuel and NOT forcing our politicians to research alternative energy sources and forcing them to raise fuel efficiency standards on cars.

If you think these gas prices are going to be temporary, think again. It's going to get worse before it gets better. I just had to move my car down a floor in the parking garage I use at work, because one block north of me, fucking looters were STEALING GAS OUT OF PARKED CARS. In a garage, no less. My garage also houses a police precinct and is across the street from a Federal building. Gas stations here continue to have hours long lines, when they even have gas, that is. And this town wasn't even hit that hard by the hurricane. 20-30 minutes drive south, and you've entered a fucking no-man's land. It's the goddamn 19th century out there. No power, no food, no gas, spotty to no phones, and if you are lucky, some cell phone coverage. That's in the good parts. There is also talk that Bellsouth, the biggest local phone provider in the area, might lose all or most of its services due to generators in Jackson failing or running out of gas.

[MrHat]

Anyone else feel the terror alert should be escalated?

I mean, it's not like we watch a ton of TV or something.

[cevik]

No shit people are dying. And you're making it about YOURSELF. Noble passion against the powers that be my ass.

Now I remember why I flagged you as "Stupid" the first time I read one of your posts.. glad to see I was right.. thanks..

[voodoolily]

Anyone else feel the terror alert should be escalated?

I mean, it's not like we watch a ton of TV or something.

No, 'cuz hurricanes are acts of God, not of terrorists.

Again, I am just so happy that Haem and SPT came away unscathed. Don't forget to sleep with a gun under yer pillow!

[WayAbvPar]

There is a thread in Politics about Katrina. Please feel free to continue the personal attacks and rhetoric there. Let's keep this thread focused on the storm and the relief efforts. Thanks.

[MrHat]

No, 'cuz hurricanes are acts of God, not of terrorists.

I mean, it's sort of an opportune time to cripple American economics by hitting us with an attack while we're down.

[stray]

No shit people are dying. And you're making it about YOURSELF. Noble passion against the powers that be my ass.

Now I remember why I flagged you as "Stupid" the first time I read one of your posts.. glad to see I was right.. thanks..

Wow, man. The first time I read one of your posts, I thought you were a cool guy. Fucking seriously. 

Lol, aren't you just the beacon of goodwill and all that is right in the world....