f13.net

Okay, got an LCD HDTV and am very happy with picture quality, dimensions, and the price.

It has the following inputs:
1 PC video input (like a monitor cable)
1 DVI
1 component
2 AV inputs (rca jacks, 1 yellow video, 2 for stereo sound)
1 S-video input

Now...  I have digital cable from brighthouse networks and an XBOX.

1) Would I be correct in my understanding that getting HDTV or widescreen out of xbox games that support them requires the component video Xbox cables?  I can't seem to access any special video modes with just the AV connectors that come with the xbox.

2) does the xbox support progressive scan on dvds once I get the component video cables?  Or will I be stuck with 480i?  I am pretty sure it is still displaying in 480i as I can see the alternate lines lagging behind on fast pans.

3) I currently just have coaxial connection coming from my digital cable tv decoder.  I believe that IF I upgrade to HDTV channels (the 11 or so offered here) that the new set-top box would have component video cables for output.
If so, would I have to get a component video switch (seems to cost $50+ on the low end). to see both cable and the xbox.  Is there such a thing as a component-DVI converter?  If it exists, would it be able to carry the hdtv signal?  Same question for the computer video plugin or S-video, any cheap adapters that could carry HDTV signal?

4) There is a single 'bad' line in the display.  The tv turns on fine, looks great.  About 5 minutes later one line goes black, and then will adopt any really intense colors that overlap it before fading to black again.  After about 30-40 minutes, the line disapears and starts to work perffectly.  It seems to be a bad connection, where the heat of the tv being on for awhile causes it to expand back into proper connection.  I know bad pixels are considered common in LCD displays (can't find any bad pixels other than that one line), but is this kind of problem common?  I am assuming I should take it back to exchange it.


Thanks for any help, I know these questions are VERY noobish, but I have had the TV for all one day and I didn't leave the house planning on getting it.

I am just insane that way. $1300 impulse buys are bad, but hard to resist when the wife is not only okaying it but pushing you to do it (assuming it is something you REALLY want).

Glad you asked Alluvian, as I'm in the market for a HDTV and am trying to research a lot of this info right now (Fairly unsuccessfully atm I might as work is getting in the way of my good internet research time)

One thing I have read is that same Plasma and LCD TVs need about 100 hrs to get worked in. I'm wondering if that's part of your random line and problem and if it's worthing waiting to see if it goes away.

Anyways, hopefully someone with more knowledge than I enters this thread soon as I have a lot of the same sorts of questions.

Yes.

An unmodded Xbox can only output 480i for DVD playback. There are hacked versions of the Dashboard that can apparently output 480p for DVD playback.

Maybe, maybe not. You should check with your cable company -- the box may have HDMI, DVI, or component outputs or some combination of the three.

I've seen PC video card DVI output to monitor/TV component input adapters but I'm not sure if they work in the reverse direction. If your HDTV cable box outputs HDMI there are HDMI <-> DVI cables. There are also component output to VGA monitor input adapter boxes/cables as well.

Use DVI for your PC. Trust me on that one. The VGA port is ok, but the sharpness of DVI is dramatic, makes my display sharply pixel-perfect. Forget you have s-video or RCA, total suckage.
Yep. Don't splurg on monster cables or anything, but don't cheap out. The standard xbox HD pack is fine. Without the HD pack, you get 480i only.
The xbox does a crappy job at scaling, my tv does a great job. So when I was using my xbox as a dvd player, I wasn't concerned, thus I dunno :) I'm using my pc as a dvd player now. But for now, your image will look like shit because you aren't using component cables. Welcome to HD: GIGO (garbage in/garbage out).
My cable box has a DVI option, which I don't use because it's my preferred connection for my PC. I have component switching on my audio reciever, initially I used that. But I found I don't really use my consoles anymore (pc+hdtv ftw), so I recently had my xbox hooked to the pass-through on the cable box (before it went to storage, heh).

Get used to this: there are no cables besides DVI and component for you now (barring HDMI, which you don't have, and maybe VGA if you really need to, for the pc, but I'd highly recommend DVI for pc). Forget Composite (RCA) and S-Video. They don't exist anymore, except maybe for a VCR.
I'd freak out about it and make sure I got a new one. Sure, it goes away. You didn't spend over a grand for a wonky set, now did you? Demand satisfaction, or the electronics stores will gladly ignore you with pithy dismissals.
Heh. Mine was planned for 8 months, I'm not much for impulses. But then, I spent $3k (on a $5k set), so I spent a lot of time just saving cash. You have a good wife :)

Well, until you follow my advice about hooking up the pc to it. That'll test the WAP (wife approval factor).

And just in case you didn't know, DVI and HDMI cables are pretty expensive if you get good ones (think approx $75). CompUSA had only one brand (Belkin I think) at $75 for a DVI cable, though some (http://www.computercablestore.com/HDMI-DVI-SVGA-Cables.aspx) websites (http://www2.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Submit=Go&DEPA=0&type=&description=DVI&Category=0&minPrice=&maxPrice=&Go.x=0&Go.y=0) have cheaper versions for 25-30 bucks.

Anyone know the diff between DVI-I, DVI-D, and DVI-A?

If your cable box uses DVI for some reason, you can use a DVI<->HDMI cable, then you can use a DVI<->DVI cable from your computer to your screen.

-Edit-
By the way, it looks like the Sceptre 27" LCD (http://www.sceptre.com/Products/LCD/Specifications/spec_X27SV-NagaIII.htm) at Costco dropped by $100, it's $899 now.

Don't quote me on this, but if memory servers, they are all on the same physical connector.

If you look closely at a DVI connector, you see two things:  one is an analog port, and the other is a digital pin matrix.  Hence you can transmit both analog and digital information on the same cable.

DVI-D implies that only the digital part of the connection is used
DVI-A implies that only the analog part of the connection is used
DVI-I implies that both are used ('integrated')

For those of you that realize the cost of HDMI, take a trip to your local Best Buy. There's a couple 1080i scaling DVD players that come with a HDMI cable. They cost about $25 more than buying the most reasonably priced HDMI cable on the market. The DVD player I had experience with was solid (particularly through the HDMI connection). I believe it was a Toshiba and ran like $100 after tax.

Best way to buy an HDMI cable, me thinks.

I would have stepped into this conversation earlier, but I'm still sorta pissed that my TV doesn't do 720p and the Xbox 360 is 720p native. I can only hope it does 1080i as well.

Interesting. One of those sites that I linked sells them like they are different cables, which maybe makes sense for some of the conversions:

* DVI-A to 5 BNC
* DVI-A to DVI-A
* DVI-A to P&D (M1) Analog
* DVI-A to VGA
* DVI-D to DFP
* DVI-D to DVI-D Dual Link
* DVI-D to DVI-D Single Link
* DVI-D to P&D (M1) Digital
* DVI-I to DVI-I Dual Link
* DVI-I to DVI-I Single Link

I'm overwhelmed!  :-P  My TV just says DVI ..

If you upgrade to HDTV and your set-top box doesn't have a digital connector, bitch your cable company out mercilessly.  Component is a really, really good analog signal--but it *IS* analog.  You're no doubt paying extra for digital cable, and more for hi def signals; you shouldn't be forced to convert back to analog.

Then use the digital connection for your cable, and run the xbox through the component connection.

Well, of course he'll be hooking his pc to the tv! That's the DVI connection. I know Alluvian hasn't mentioned hooking up the pc yet. Alluvian needs to, to get my point ;)

As I said, the VGA port is a possibility, but the signal conversions make it blurrier than the extreme crispness of DVI's straight digital. I've found that the cable box is much more accommodating to signal conversions, mostly due to the lack of text. That's why I favored the component for the cable box.

If you aren't going to hook up the pc (boo!), then you definitely want to get a DVI-enabled cable box, if they are available in your area.

Also, digital cable is SD, it's going to look crappy no matter what you do to the signal, because you're still deinterlacing. The only impact is on the HD feeds, which, as I mentioned, is minimal compared to the pc conversions.

I'd never hook my PC to my television.  Of course, I'm not single--I have a wife & child competing for the tv; I'd never get to play games if I hooked it up that way :)

Digital standard def (aka DV) is still cleaner than analog NTSC.  Or rather, it would be, if it weren't completely riddled with artifacts from the compression the cable companies use to fit in more channels.  I wish they'd stop trying to feed me 400 channels of stuff I'll never watch and just use the bandwidth for 50 channels I might actually view once in a while.

Okay, I am having a SERIOUS problem now.

My xbox gameplay on composite (standard AV, one video RCA, two sound RCA) looked great.  DVD playback looked awesome.

Yesterday I got the composite high definition cables for the xbox.  I hooked it up and turned it on.  The dashboard looked like utter SHIT, totally washed out.  I did setup my settings to turn on all the resolutions as supported.  Some games looked great, some bad. 

Soul calibur 2 looked stunning in resolution but would didn't work in widescreen like I hear it is supposed to.  Great color, no problems.
Same thing with ESPN 2k5.  looked great, but didn't go into 16:9 like I hear it is supposed to.  (still looks nice streached to 16:9 but there is distortion)

Ninja gaiden worked fine in widescreen, no distortion, but the video was really badly washed out ingame.  The menus looked stunning, but the gameplay was WAY too bright and super washed out.  Turning down the brightness on the TV made the ingame stuff look good, but then the start button menu was super dark and hard to see.

Now the real problem.  I stuck in a DVD I just watched the day before with the composite connection, it looked STUNNING on my TV then.  With the component connection it looked AWFUL!  Horrible!  VERY washed out, way too bright, the blacks were grey at best, and there were verticle striped regions that were much brighter (maybe 10 or so verticle bright bars across the screen).  The bars were not sharply defined, but more of a brightness gradient.  Looked HIDEOUS.  I could not watch more than a few seconds before wanting to vomit.  My 8 year old $80 vcr gave me better video quality.

What is wrong?  Are the xbox cables fucked up?  Why then do some games look gorgeous?  Why do those hideous verticle brightness gradients exist during movie playback but not in any games?  Is it a television problem (video quality otherwise looks GREAT), a problem with those inputs on the TV, an Xbox problem???  I am baffled.

I really need to test the xbox on another component in screen to see if the error is in the TV, but I don't quite have a spare hdtv around.

Bottom line, to use my xbox right now I would have to keep the composite cables around so that I could watch dvds, because they are UNWATCHABLY bad using the component connections.  It makes no sense.  I have tried web searches for this type of problem, but all I find are people praising the component connections.  I am SOOOO frustrated.

One thing of note, although I don't know if it is important.  The pictues I had seen of the high def AV pack showed a short cable, going from the xbox to 5 female rca jacks for the component cable to be connected.  The one I found at best buy was microsoft, but it was a 5 foot or so cable that went from the Xbox connector directly to 5 male rca jacks ready to be plugged in to the TV input.

cable stuff (dvi)
I hooked up the new HD cable box to DVI.  I am having problems with aspect ratios being wrong, but there is a guy coming out to see what is up as the morons on the phone kept telling me to "change my tv to channel 3", even though I kept saying I am using DVI, there are no TV channels on the DVI input, I can turn my CABLE BOX to channel 3, but not my tv.  Hopefully this gets taken care of tomorrow when they are sending someone out or I will be pissed.


And I don't have any plans on hooking up my monitor right now.  Most of the time when the TV is on, I am also doing something on my computer.

Sounds like you either need to get a new TV or tinker with the xbox.

Composite is ass, if you're happy with it and it works, I don't see why you can't stick with it. But it's ass. That said...

Go into settings on the TV. Make sure everything is set for standard television. You don't want your TV fighting with the settings and output sent from the xbox. Also, find out exactly what HDTV modes it supports.

Now go into the xbox video settings from the dashboard, change 480p, 720p and 1080i to the correct toggle (yes or no, depdending on what your tv supports). Now go turn on widescreen aspect - yes. That should do it for most games. Some games require you to go in and change the progressive scan setting in the 'video' section in game.

If that doesn't work, I'd go with getting a new TV, that scan line from the first post still sounds shitty to me.

You mean component HD cables?  Or composite high definition cables?

Which aspect ratios are wrong on the cable, the HD or the SD, or both?

As a TV technology ignoramus, what should I be looking for in a HDTV, as la gallina has been strongly suggesting that we get one?  Please use small words.

I'll try to keep it simple: big screen, good tech, good price, hd inputs available

First, find your price range. Second, figure out where you are going to put it (whats the biggest size? do you want to hang it on a wall?) Third, browse for what you can afford in the different types of TVs, ie: DLP rear-projection, LCD rear-projection, flatscreen LCD, flatscreen Plasma. Go to Bestbuy/Fry's/Whatever to actually see them in person.

As for what tech is better - well, they all have their ups and downs, but after reading a lot in the avsforum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=8dc10c9ff868517b3435e804c55bc4d6&forumid=63) I prefer the DLP rear-projection TVs, particularly the new Samsungs (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=8dc10c9ff868517b3435e804c55bc4d6&threadid=493443&highlight=samsung).

I'm still a big fan of CRTs. They still do black better than any other tech. And for gamers - well, I think that's a must. With the next console generation I think dynamic lighting and weather is going to play a big role in the advancements they make - and that means a lot of black.

LCD does a very nice dark grey tone. DLP does a very nice, uh, ugh, I hate me some DLP. Plasma just isn't there yet. LCD rear projection is nice, but overpriced - all things considered. Whatever you do, if you decide to go for a small projector, skip DLP completely - rainbows are terrible (and they're exactly what they sound like) and beeline for the LCD projectors. The tech there is getting better - but again, a very nice dark grey.

With the new DLP tech, they are using a 7-segment color wheel which is suppose to eliminate the rainbows (which some people don't see anyways). They are also boasting a Contrast Ratio of 10,000:1, which is suppose to make really awesome blacks.

One of the comments from a guy who saw the TVs in person at CES, regarding the contrast ratio:



However, this is from their high end sets, the HLRxx78W's, which start at around $4,000 for a 50". They are also shipping (soon to be available - mid-May) HLRxx67W's with a contrast ratio of 2,500:1 with pricing starting at $2,500 for a 42" (this is the 720p TV the quote above mentions).

I'd really like to get one of the 78W's for the contrast ratio, but a touch pricey for me right now. Btw, this is all in the first post of the AVS Forum thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=8dc10c9ff868517b3435e804c55bc4d6&threadid=493443&highlight=samsung) I link to above.

You can also save a few bucks by purchasing an HD monitor instead of an actual HDTV set; you will of course be relegated to using something like cable to view HD signals, but it chops several hundred $$$ off the cost of the set.

I too like CRTs best in regards to image quality, but if you're limited in space or want a really big screen, they're not friendly.  My 39(?)-inch Sony requires two fairly strong adults to lift, and it takes up a ginormous amount of space. Big tubes are also prone to developing problems in the corners; one of them on mine needs degaussing.  I never get around to it since I prefer my movies letterbox widescreen anyway (it's not a wide-screen tv) and the corner is just black in those cases.

Please bear with the Brucery:
You have to enable progressive scan dashboard. It's a Live update, and there's some funky button combo to enable it. Google is thy friend :)
SC2 is widescreen at 480p, not 720p. I play it at 480p, widescreen > higher res in this case (imo).
Could be a situation like mine, where your tv's scalar is superior to the xbox's (not difficult, the xbox sucks). When you upgraded the cables, I believe the xbox does it's own scaling and deinterlacing. But we were worried about your tv for other reasons...
Take it to the B&M you bought it from. If you didn't buy it from a B&M where you can show up and chew people out, for shame. Anyway, try the xbox on a few other sets to get an idea for what's going on.
Well, I wish I had good news for you...but cable guys know next to nothing at all about hd. I've educated  every guy that's come out to my house, and I have to know exactly what I need them to do, and I've taken to not letting them touch my equipment at all, just supervise as I make the changes. I've had very bad experience with Time Warner, ymmvbidi (but I doubt it ;)).

Not sure what you mean by aspect ratios being wrong, though. The cable guys are hardcore about pushing 'stretch' mode, personally I can't stand it. Had to take the remote from the last installer because he was screwing up all my settings. I don't mind pillarboxing (bars on the side to preserve 4:3 aspect), what bugs me is distorting the image, I can't believe some people can deal with that, or prefer it (beyond the burn-in prevention issues...DLP doesn't burn-in)
Ditto what Viin said. I own a Samsung 61" DLP, the HLN617W, bought it in Nov. 2003. It's older technology, with only a 3 color wheel (some folks complain of seeing rainbows on fast pans, I don't see them, luckily), the tech is only better now. I'm still in total love with my tv/monitor. WoW is a much better game when it's 5' across ;)
Meh. I played Thief 2 and DS just fine. Had to tweak gamma a little bit. It's not perfect, but I sure wouldn't dismiss DLP because of it, DLP has huge advantages over just about every other tech for gamers. If you don't trust me, take Viin's advice and camp out the avsforum, I did. Make an informed choice, get out and look at the sets yourself. I've seen everything on the market and DLP is still my choice, hands-down, no doubts or misgivings, despite it being a couple generations old and an 'inferior' DLP model. They are only better now. And cheaper.

CRT - smaller sets, and heavy. My 61" DLP weighs around 105lbs and I can easily move it myself (do it every now and again when I move furniture around). Not to mention the risk of burnin, a non-issue with DLP. I can fall asleep playing WoW without a thought of the UI burning into the screen (I do have something like 17 days /played, heh...gotta think about the UI burnin)
The important resolution for LCD (and DLP) is exactly as it is for LCD pc monitors: the native resolution, where everything is sharply pixel-perfect, not fuzzy. For instance, my tv is 720p native (1280x720x60Hz to be exact), so I don't enable 1080i, even though it would scale to 720p.

First off, LOTS of thanks to Sky and the others posting in this thread.  I am really going nuts trying to get this stuff working right.  I was SOOO pissed off last night thinking all would be GREAT with my TV finally having gotten all the proper inputs, only to find everything looked better (except the xbox video games) with the crappy inputs.


Okay, I was watching some HD national geographic show.  It was widescreen (the following holds true for all widescreen HD I have seen so far coming from the cable box).

The television was set to 16:9 aspect ratio.  The image filled up the width of the screen fine, but only used about half of the vertical image (1/4 of the screen at the top and bottom was black).  The image is also visibly stretched horizontally (short/fat looking people).

Pressing the zoom key on the cable box remote does nothing in this aspect ratio.

I can change the television aspect ratio to 4:3 and then the proportions are right, but there are huge borders now on the top, bottom, left, and right.  The proporortions match my television, but it is like my TV is half its size as I now have a small little image inside my large screen.  Pressing the zoom key now on the cable box zooms in on the image so that it is still proportionate and the image is the right size.  There are now black bars on the right and left of the image put there by the TV (due to the 4:3 ratio it is displaying in).  These black bars are covering up everything on the right and left that are outside of the 4:3 "picture frame".  It was easy to see the missing space because of how the screen cut off the 'national geographic' logo in the corner.

So no settings I can find will actually let widescreen fit my screen.


Aha, that makes sense.  Is there a way I can make SC2 display in 480p widescreen without going to the dashboard and turning off 720p as a supported resolution?


I figured out the dashboard problem before I posted actually (both triggers and both thumbsticks) but wanted to keep the post less confusing.

So, let me try and understand this...
When I was using the original Xbox composite connections to the DVD, the TELEVISION did the scaling to 480i, and all was good, right?
Now when I hook up the fancy shmancy HD component connection to the TV, the XBOX thinks it is the best thing since sliced bread and scales the image to 480i on it's own, does a shitty assed job, and then the TV just displays the shitty image it is sent?

This is making sense to me.  I did some toggling between the 480i and 480p modes for the dashboard and I think the washed out SHIT look is the same thing that is going wrong with my DVD playback...  would that be verification that the problem is in the fact that the xbox does a shit tastic job sending out a 480i output?

That last bit is more-or-less correct, with some correction:  The XBox isn't scaling anything to 480i, that's native standard definition vertical resolution.  That's what it was sending out the composite output, which your TV recognized and displayed properly.

Now the XBox is trying to output HD (480p or more) and *is* scaling the image.  Even worse, due to the issues it sounds like your TV is having it might be re-scaling the image again, on top of whatever the XBox is doing.  Two wrongs, no right, etc.

I think that's what you actually meant, but got the i and p mixed up...?

If you really don't mind the analog picture quality, a DVD player hooked to your S-video input won't look any worse than the original XBox composite output.

I don't really fully understand what is going on, that is why I made the mistake, heh.  I am still trying to figure out why the playback looked good with the default composite output, and was trying to walk myself through it.  I guess I still don't really understand what is going on.

Try reading this as a start:

http://money.howstuffworks.com/tv-buying-guide.htm

Figured out my aspect ratio issues.  There was an unlabeled button on my cable box that had a menu for setting what aspect ration the  TV was in.

I can't BELIEVE they didn't tell me about that on the F-ing phone.

BAH.  Probably need a new DVD player though.

It looks fine on composite input but awful (washed out with vertical brighness bars across the screen) with the composite connectors.  Probably due to the lack of progressive scan on the xbox or something I don't really understand, heh.

Also wondering if there is a way to get SC2 to play in 480P widescreen without turning off 780p in the dashboard....

Nope.
I wasn't being facetious or exaggerating when I said cable company employees don't know shit about HD. They really don't. The last two installers I had suggested I put my business card in their office and do HD installations around the region. If I didn't despise the idea of customer service, I'd do it in a second.

It's hard to troubleshoot display issues without seeing the display. Even then, I'm not a great troubleshooter because my stuff 'just works'. I had fully researched all the defects of my own display before buying it, as well. But something sounds fishy, I'm pretty sure my xbox looked much better with DVD playback over component cables. I just forget how I had it all set up back then (xbox in cold storage for a long time now).

Have you spent time at the avsforum? You need to. At least for the tv forums, you'll probably find a lot about your set over there. Indispensible resource imo.

Sooo... I'm really far behind on the learning curve with this sort of stuff and on one Hell of a small budget to purchase a new TV.

I've done some looking and have come across a Toshiba set that fits well within the budget (ignore the suggest MSRP on the page, I can get it MUCH cheaper then that)


http://www.toshiba.ca/web/product.grp?lg=en&section=2&group=6&product=3350

Now, if someone does mind looking and that and plainly telling me what it can and can't do and if there's something else I should be looking for in a TV?

This TV will be used mostly for movies and and the xbox. Rarely do we watch cable tv other than football, so it'd be nice to do HD NFL Sunday Ticket. Will this TV work for that? Would love some input, either good or bad.

Thanks

It *should* look better...but hair-yanking disparities between "what it should do" and "what it does do" are common problems in the video world.  Not just consumer electronics either, I still get more moments of "wtf is this piece of crap doing NOW" than I ought to.

Anyways,  it should just pass the 480i signal through the component cables (after all, you could be connecting them to a TV that's not high-definition) and let the display deal with it--but it may not be doing that, since you've got the higher-resolution options turned on, so it knows you're not feeding a standard TV.  I don't have an XBox myself to play with, so I really can't say for certain.

Test:  if you take your XBox back to standard definition (turn off the HD options) what does your output look like on the TV, through the component cables?

Threads like these make me glad I don't have the money to be an early HD adopter.

Probably work just fine, but I'd never buy it because "   Cabinet: 47-3/4"W x 50-1/2"H x 22-1/2"D, 169 lbs. ". 169 lbs! How the heck do you expect to move this beast? Hopefully you don't live in an older house with small doorways and narrow stairs.

I would make sure you've seen it work in person, make sure there's not anything you don't like about the picture, size, remote, menu, etc.

One thing to look for is view angles. Make sure you can see it easily enough from where you are going to be sitting (height matters too).

Yeah, the weight of the sucker doesn't make me happy, but with the budget I'm restricted to it's hard to find something lighter. I've gone in and looked at it a few times and am pretty happy with the view angles and the image seems pretty damn good as far as I'm concerned.

I need to grab a couple of my own DVDs however and take them in and have them give them a spin.

Murdoc: if I was you I'd try to get your hands on one of these:

Samsung HL-P5063W (http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/product/b2c_product_detail.jsp?eUser=&prod_id=HLP5063WX%2fXAA)

It's last year's model, so they will probably give you a good discount on one of these. I haven't been following the other thin/light rear-projection tv's too much, but same thing applies to those.

Ideally you should go to someplace that works off commission (not like BestBuy), they will have a harder time selling the older sets once the new ones are in so are more likely to cut you a deal. (So, state up front: hey, I hear the new Samsung DLPs are coming out next month .. but I don't want to wait that long, can I get a deal on one of last year's models?)

Just my two cents.

Well, that's up for debates, heh. I prefer a progressive scan image for sports, many do, that set is 1080i. Sorry to be repetetive, but avsforum is really the place to do the research, there are too many variables and opinions to easily cover. If you're not going to hook the pc up (for shame!) I'll hold off on my DLP fanboism, since it's largely from ease of use and lack of burnin with a pc, though they are great in every aspect imo.
So no 720p at all. Deal-killer if you were to think about hooking up that pc...and I just don't personally care for interlaced images.

I'm not sure what tech they are using, HDSC? Never heard of it. Red flag imo, but again, you need to spend the time doing some hard research, the only way to be sure of what you're getting, good and bad. As I said, I knew the major defects of my set and balanced that against the many positives, and luckily, the biggest negatives of my set are totally inconsequential (I don't see rainbows (and that's been remedied by tech since), and the black levels are perfectly acceptable imo (and that's also been remedied in later versions)). But you need to know what the downsides are and make sure you can live with them (it's a lot of money imo).

On the immediate downside, there is no DVI nor VGA port. VGA is optional, since you're not hooking the pc up (for shame again! :)), and you might get lucky with HDMI support in your area, but right now it seems most gear is DVI if it has a pure digital option. But HDMI is the next tech in line, so it's fairly future-proof. I guess you could live with component cables until you get an HDMI cable box and not really notice (until you've seen the pure digital path).

Since you can get it cheaper, I won't link the set I'd get for that MSRP, the Samsung 50" DLP. I just love the technology, and I've been living with it daily for a year and a half now.
I disagree completely. It seems complex, but with a couple months of surfing avsforum I was able to get a tv that didn't have the hassles the majority of hdtvs have. So in that, I agree, I guess. If you don't take the time to learn about them, it's EASY to get a stinker, even unintentionally (like if you were intending to use a pc on the set murdoc is considering, f'rinstance, it's decent in other aspects btu totally deficient in that one).

The biggest "hurdle" I had to jump was downloading a piece of shareware (powerstrip), and making a monitor driver for windows that had my tv's information in it. Click auto-detect, click create monitor driver, save, install monitor driver normally through windows. Maybe 30 seconds. Then uninstalled powerstrip, didn't look back since (some people really tweak a lot with powerstrip, though).

Anyway, for the last year as an "early adopter", I've been playing WoW, HL2, Doom3, EQ2, Planetside, BF:V/1942, Vampire:Bloodlines and every other game on a honkin' big screen while everyone else I play with/against is huddled up to a desk and tiny monitor. I can't say enough about how totally worth it my DLP purchase was, I'd make the same decision every time, no buyer's remorse whatsoever.

And finally:
(http://home.twcny.rr.com/iamthey/images/kahuna2.jpg)
(3 new replies, heh - my 61" sammy DLP weighs around 105 lbs...I really do highly recommend them if you can afford a decent sized set (50+ imo)

To be honest, my best bet is to make do with my 32" tv and save up the extra coin to get into a DLP set. I'm a big fan of the Samsung DLPs and with some shopping around I think I can do the 50" DLP for a decent price that wouldn't take too much longer to get the difference between that and what I have in my budget. Remeber also Sky, that MSRP is in Canadian fund too.  It's hard since I can get that Toshiba tv for $1600 Canadian which seems like a pretty decent price for what seems like a nice tv (according to the avsforums even ;) ). I just have to make sure I don't screw myself over for further down the line when I do have more cash to play with and want to keep up with the Joneses technologically speaking.

I've tried poking around the avsforum and I think I really need to sit down and spend some real time not only reading about the different TVs, but the different technologies before I make the decision. The problem I have is that I'm way to rash in my purchases, which I have to curb.

I'm quite happy with my other components. I have a brand new (to me anyways) Yamaha receiver (http://www.yamaha.ca/av/Receivers/HTR_5760S.jsp) with a 5.1 set of Energy Speakers (http://www.energy-speakers.com/v2/products/product-line.php?id=6). But all the new room I have in the basement of my new house is screaming at me to match it up with a suitable TV!

I can get the same model in 46" for about $800 CDN more than the Toshiba 51".

Yep, that's your best bet. If the folks at avs are generally liking the set, you'll probably be just fine. Like I said, the biggest "problems" are the lack of pc inputs (vga/dvi) and my preference for 720p sets over 1080i/540p. Certainly does seem like a pretty good deal, the biggest scam to watch for is EDTVs, that only do 480p or similar, and I'd be wary of non-standar resolutions - HD standards being 1080i/720p, maybe 1080p counts as HD, I forget, but NOT 480p, despite misinformation that sales folks are more than happy to espouse, unfortunately, whether by ignorance or pushing low end sets.

Also, if you think about DLP, make sure to spend some time viewing a couple models in the store, to be sure you aren't susceptible to the rainbow issues. They should be totally ironed out with more segmentation on the color wheel, but I don't see them on my set. Apparently it's a real problem for some folks, and has become a highly rumored problem, as well (perceptions of folks who haven't watched a DLP set). I was totally worried until I sat down and watched a set at CC for an hour or so.

And I'm kind of a prick when it comes to this kind of thing, because my philosphy is to wait until you can buy the good model. I could've bought the 46" model 6 months before I finally got mine, but I knew that I'd go nuts if I spent $2500 (or whatever they were then) only to have that nagging though "If I had only waited 6 more months, I'd have a 61" model...". The wait was totally worth it, because, as I said, I have zero buyer's remorse. That's so rare as to be impossible for me, I love my new guitar, but there are a couple frets I need worked on, a small amount of remorse there. Yet none for the tv, which is why I go all fanboi about it ;) Spent the extra months researching on avsforum :) I don't get compensation for the endorsements, btw....

If money is a concern, look into projectors, as well, if it's going in the basement and you have a good wall to screen on. Then you are gaming in feet, not inches :) Make sure you note projector's lumens and resolutions, as well as hookups.

The spot we'd put the TV could not support one much more than 30 inches, if that, so the uber dino-TV's are out for us.  Anyone have luck with a particular brand/model in the smaller sizes?  I don't want to drop more than 2k, but I am obviously open to dropping much less if the difference in quality is small/nonexistent.  Really, we just want DVD's, football and hockey (if it ever returns) to look better.

Actually, I'm presently trying to learn more about projectors as friends of mine have an extra 104" screen when they got double what they ordered for their projector. Not too often some says 'I got an extra 104" screen if you want it'. The problem with a projector, for me at least, is that the basement isn't going to be completely finished for awhile. It'll be finished enough to have a TV sitting down on the floor, but to do the projector up like I would like, I'm looking at a good year+ and I'm not sure my patience can last that long.

I'm really finding the TV to be the hardest part to chose. I am 100% confident in my receiver and speakers, but there's so many options for TVs that it's sorta throwing me for a loop.

Also, what is the 'rainbow effect'?

The LCD flat screens are a good choice. I bought the Sceptre 30" LCD Flatscreen (http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=10041690&whse=BC&topnav=&cat=3316&hierPath=79*3316*) from Costco, just to try it out (because you can return it anytime you want - no questions) and I really like it.

The only problem is that it's online order only, so you'd have to order it, get it, and set it up to check it out. But then you can take it to your closest Costco if you don't like it. And the only other problem I've had with it is that there is no code in the Tivo book for the Tivo remote to control the TV - but that was fixed with a universal learning remote.

But, go to Circuit City or Best Buy and check out their flat screens 30" or less. Some of them have pretty crappy screens, but others are pretty sharp (some of that has to do with bad image feeds). Most are 2k or less (except the plasma's).

Just what it says.   :-D

Some people see a rainbow of colors on white things if they move too fast across the screen. Ie: white car drives from left to right fairly quickly, some people will see a hue of rainbow colors on the white.

I recently bought one of these: http://hometheater.about.com/cs/television/fr/olevialt30hva.htm for less than $900 on a special.  Could not be happier.  Sharp, cheap, and had enough inputs for my cable, computer and x-box.

The original plan was to get one of the new generation Samsung DLP's.  Had to go with plan b because the old entertainment center would not fit through the bedroom door.  I spent a lot of time resurching the Samsungs and was totally sold on them.

You can see a "simulation" of it here:

ftp://ftp.extremetech.com/pub/extremetech/displays/SamsungHLN4365WRainbowClip.wmv

Note that this is just a simulation since *everybody* can see the rainbow effect in that clip since its taking advantage of the slow shutter speed on the video camera to capture the effect. It's sort of like how you can see the scan line on computer monitors in television programming if things aren't sync'd properly.

As others have said, some people can see the effect and some people can't. My sister's boyfriend bought a top-of-the-line Sharp DLP TV and was massively disappointed after it was delivered and found out he could see the effect (though my sister can't see it at all) and ended up returning it. If you go to a store to check this out in person you may want to bring your own source material along since this effect is enhanced under certain conditions such as white/bright objects against a dark background or said objects moving across the screen like Viin said. Watching the scrolling end credits is apparently a good test for this. Some of the Matrix scenes are also apparently very good at triggering this effect. And just like in the video simulation above, moving your head and eyes around can trigger the effect where starring at the screen with your eyes fixed might not.

This problem is roughly analogous to the flickering some people can see on computer monitors. I, for example, can instantly tell when a monitor has been set to 60 Hz even when not under fluorescent lights but I can eliminate the flicker I can see by increasing the refresh rate on the monitor (assuming the video card allows it). Similarly there are now DLP sets that either spin the color wheel faster or have more segments on the color wheel or both which effectively increases the "refresh rate" of the image which can reduce or eliminate the rainbow effect for a particular viewer. There are also high end DLP sets that use 3 chips and so they don't have a color wheel at all.

Rainbows are an artifact of the 'color wheel'. Basically, a DLP beams white light onto the DMD (not the DHD, Daniel Jackson) or digital micromirror device, a postage stamp sized doohickey with a few million mirrors on it. These mirrors  swivel from full on (white) to full off (black) and many points between for greys. This beam of light is then passed through the color wheel, which is a wheel with color segmentation (RGB) that spins quickly providing color. It creates the illusion of static color, but it's really being laid down in parts.

In certain situations, like a very bright torch in a very dark hallway, this can become noticeable at the borders of the white object. I can see it if I try to, the easiest way to see them (really, though, if you don't notice it, don't go looking, heh) is to use a THX calibration disc (on a lot of DVDs, maybe all with THX) and use the white ring portion. Staring at the white circle, quickly flit your eyes left and right, you'll see a rainbow trail as your eyes move faster than the color wheel lays down the colors.

NECROPOST

Well, we are finally buying one, and I was wondering if any of the technophiles around here had any advice on this TV:

http://www.samsung.com/Products/TV/DLPTV/HLR5688WXXAA.asp

http://www.tvauthority.com/DLP-TV-HDTV/Samsung-HL-R5688W.asp

I presume this TV will render both 720p and 1080i in HD and not merely in EDTV, right? 

Is the 1080p a waste?  It seems like it should be better than either 720p or 1080i, but does anything use it?

What pitfalls should I be aware of?  Can I get a TV that is as good for less than $3k?

Woohoo! I :heart: my Sammy DLP. As some may have heard.
Yes. The set is 1080p native. An EDTV is 480p native. My set is 720p native, but also displays 1080i beautifully (good internal scaler).
Imo, no. But my opinion is that it should be your gaming monitor. If you're just talking DVDs (480i), HDTV (720p/1080i), maybe. The xbox360 is 720p native, but iirc Sony said the PS3 supports 1080p? I forget and I'm too lazy to look it up :)

I also think I got my explanation above mixed up, when I had the set apart it looked like it went through the color wheel before the DMD.

Pitfalls same as for my tv, but less so because the tech is better. Better black levels, less rainbow effect, etc.

My TV supports 1080p, and yeah, the PS3 is supposed to play it.

I myself am not sold on DLP. I just think it really tends to artifact a lot more on SD signals. So if you plan to watch much SDTV, you will notice a difference. After I got HD Cable, I always check the HD channels first, and then the movie channels, and only after that do I watch SD channels. My TV pretty much is always on HD channels except for the few shows I cant get in HD (Nip/Tuck, the Shield, Daily Show). I absolutly love the IN-HD and IN-HD2 channels. They are really beautiful.

I havent bought the Xbox HD pack, because I plan on getting an Xbox 360. The only complaint I have about my TV (Sony SXRD 60) is that it only has 2 component inputs, so I am using S-video for Xbox and PS2 right now. I am going to have to make a cut some where when I get my 360.

After being sick all last week, and sitting on my couch watching TV the majority of the time, I really love my HD more than before.

Me too.  Two general questions.

I was fooling around with hooking my pc up to my set with an s video cable i had around (besides, my DVI/HDMI input is taken by my upcoding DVD player) and I finally figured out in order to get it to work, i had to go into my video card setting and tell it to use my TV as the primary display.  Well, the got the picture on, but of course blanked my monitor (and it looked very crappy and soft too).  I have a 128 MB geforce fx at the moment.

Are you using your set as the primary display for your pc, and what video card are you using?

Secondly, have you ever noticed some lipsyncing issues.  Some shows are awful for the sound not matching up with peoples lip movements no matter if i run the sound through my TV or sound system?

Xilren.

Nevermind the first part.  I hooked it up using a standard VGA cable so the comp would act like I had two monitors, then just cloned the display.  It looks perfecet now at 1024x768.  Next step, wireless kb and mouse and im gaming from the couch.  :-D

Xilren

I've noticed lag under various conditions -- depending on whether I'm using the TV's scaling or not seems to be the biggest one, also where the signal is coming from. It's not sound lag, it's video lag. I have Dreamcast, XBox, PS2, Gamecube all running into an S-Video switcher and then S-Video the TV, a PC running in on DVI, and digital cable and DVD both running in on component. I usually notice the sound lag on the games if the TV is also set to stretch the game image. Usually only matters in rhythm games, though I am playing Guitar Hero that way and just learned to listen to the music rather than time it visually.

You have an Xbox, PS2, and Gamecube not running on component?!

RAPH, WHY?

Because we have two component ins, and the DVD and the HD cable get them. Never gone looking for a component switcher, but I figured once we get an XBox 360, I'll eventually get one. But even for that, there's still one spot left open on the S-Video switcher.

Then again, once Revolution and PS3 come out, I'll need two more. :P Then I'll have to find some new way of switching. None of the older stuff is getting unhooked, you see. :)

Revolution?  You mean the dancing game?  I know you don't mean that but if you did, I'd be your best friend for pics!  You would be my first google image ever.  I think.

I meant Nintendo's new console, whatever they call it when it comes out.

That said, I do have in my collection Dance Dance Revolution, DDR Konamix, DDR Disney Mix, DDR Max, DDR Max 2, DDR Extreme, DDR Extreme 2, In the Groove, two DDR mats (one nicer than the other) and Pump It Up with its own custom mat.

I've lost over 30 pounds in aggregate playing them too, so there. :evil:

I have played Randy Farmer (of Habitat fame) in public, and Philip Rosedale (the main Linden guy) at State of Play. Photographs were indeed taken. They fortunately do not seem to be on the web.

This is some weak sauce. My friend, just go get a component switcher. I really can't believe I just read what I read. I realize you probably don't get much time to play and when you do play games YOU want to play it's at the office. But still, comeon! Gaming in hi-def is better than watching most TV in hi-def. Let alone a switcher with 8-10 slots is going to run you maybe $90-$100.

Well, plus all the component cables for all the systems, it's a bit more. :)

It'd be nice if I had an amplifier that took that many component connections, but there don't seem to be any that don't cost what a used car does.

I'm pretty sure you're not buying $1,000 cars. Go get yourself an Integra receiver or something. :P

Actually, the military runs a rather wonderful person-to-person used car thingy here.

You can buy a car which will get you from point A to point B reliably for around $500 US.

Ah, the joys of sending people somewhere for one year and not letting them take their "real car" with them.

You people disgust me. S-Video? You do know the S stands for shit, yes?

I'm hoping Raph doesn't mention DVI because that's how you connect your pc for that sweet, sweet DLP gaming.

I get the audio sync problems every now and again on a couple stations, very rare though (but it's usually PBS, one of my favorites). Never had it with my xbox via component, have heard it's common with the PS2.

Did I hear Raph say he's hooking up his 720p 360 to his 720p DLP via SVIDEO?!? You, sir, are batshit insane.

I'd rather my games look prettier than my actors and actresses look uglier. Have you seen Cameron Diaz in hi-def? Have you seen CoD 2 in hi-def? Just putting that out there.

I don't have a 360. Yet.

S-Video is significantly better than the stock video cable. :P It's only crappy relative to component.

And I drive a 1997 Saturn.

If you wouldn't spend all your money at Station Exchange, maybe you could afford a newer vehicle.

Which reminds me, do SOE employees get a discount at Station Exchange?

You happen to be in Korea?  I remember a *lot* of those things for sale around Yongsan...

I hear Korean girls dig American guys who are not dicks.

Kind of like Australian women.

Actually, SOE employees cannot even visit the Station Exchange website, and definitely cannot transact on it.

They're pushing you towards IGE. That's wrong.

(http://www.catharsis.co.kr/board/data/humor/1092296696/soju.jpg)

edit:  Heh, I didn't realize Soju went back to the Mongols.  Good stuff that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soju

I'd never heard of Soju. I'll get some at the asian market tomorrow.

My concern was that I heard that some HDTV's can only handle either 720 or 1080, and when they encounter the other kind of signal they just render it at 480.  Is that not true anymore, or only true of cheap sets?  What spec should I look for to indicate that a particular 720 set will display 1080 in HD or a particular 1080 will display 720 in HD? 

As for connections, most of the sets I have seen have 1 HDMI, 1 DVI and 2 component inputs (plus a few S-Video and composite, so that shouldn't be a problem hooking up the cable, dvd, tivo and a console on a good connection, no?  (Am I right that it basically goes HDMI>DVI>Component>S-Vid>Composite, or is it more complicated than that [i.e. different connections are better for different input devices?].

 I'll have to dig around avsforum until I actually understand this crap before pulling the trigger on anything.  The angst!

The problem with those composite/s-video is that once you experience DVI, everything else looks like shit and you'd wish you had more component/HD-plugs.

I'd put DVI first, but you've got it right (HDMI also carries sound and enables copy protection). And yeah, some signals are friendlier to some hookups. My cable box looks great on component, and I reserve the DVI for the pc because of the perfect sharpness of pixels it delivers. The cable looks a tiny bit better over DVI...but not enough to deal with slightly blurrier pc pixels imo. If you aren't hooking up the pc (boo! :evil:) then you are still a bit short for connections...do you have a component switching receiver? Mine's cheap and has that capability, it's not just high end stuff.  Assuming cable-DVI and everything else component...but thinking about it, you'd need to upgrade your DVD player (or use your pc! powerdvd ftw), so you could get away with *shudder* svideo for DVDs until you get a progressive scan DVD player, which are getting cheap. Not sure what tivo can do, I use the cable DVR (psst..it's a cylon).

My set scales all 1080i content to 720p, it's native format. Afaik (which probably isn't far two years later), all sets scale to their native resolution.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/05/news/international/matsushita.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes

I am starting to save up now.

My God, it's full of stars.

Rather than create a new thread I thought I would ask here:

1.  What's the status of the color quality of LCD displays vs. CRT monitors these days for PC games?

It used to be that CRT monitors - good ones - had superior color quality to the LCDs.

2.  The impression of superior color quality - it appears to me - seems to be in part based on how "black" the monitor can achieve this "color":  inferior color quality monitors have the first giveaway that their appearance of black sucks/light - this make sense?

(as long as you don't read that second question aloud it won't come across as a run-on sentence  :wink: )

So where are we now?  My 25-yr old inherited projection TV is dying but I'm pissed that I'd have to buy a replace DLP spinner at some point.  Damn but I hate transition points.

For color quality if you are willing to cough up $6K or so, you can get an LED backlight (aka Lumileds) LCD which will give you an even wider color space than a CRT (though not necessarily more accurate). Unfortunately response times of these LCDs is poor for gaming.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/10/28/a_revolution/index.html
http://www.behardware.com/articles/570-1/lumileds-the-future-of-the-lcd.html

Didn't Toshiba or someone announce some crazy tv screen at CES?

Schild will answer.

Yes. I'm holding off on getting my TV because of it. It's called something something somethign there's a D at the end. It deals with Electronics or sommat. EDLP or something. I don't remember. Doesn't matter. It's a broken screen. It needs to be nerfed.

100000:1 Contrast ratios or some shit.

The only consumer replaceable part is the lamp. Expect two years of fairly heavy usage.

necro Necro NECROPOST!

Finally grabbed a HDTV this past weekend: Sony 50" SXRD Projection TV (http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/servlet/ProductDetailDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=1003012&navigationPath=n32050n100187)

I debated the 60", but the 50 fits in my designated home theatre spot a bit nicer, plus I got it for $1,999.99 CDN which fit the budget perfectly. That price point made it possible to add another new receiver to the mix: Yamaha HDMI switching receiver (http://www.yamaha.ca/av/Receivers/RXV1600B.jsp)

Haven't got it all set up quite yet, but I  :heart: HD gaming on the 360. Can't wait to get the sound all hooked up.

I have the 60inch SXRD. Gaming on the 360 is pure luv. You wont be disapointed.

Where'd you get it at such a tasty price?  I'm looking for a good all-around source for A/V equipment.

It's more of a 'who you know', than a 'what you know' sort of deal. It's nice when someone who owes you a favour can get employee discounts. ;)

My super-deal method was an employee typo (he took $1350 off instead of $350). Thanks, employee!

It's CANADIAN money!

I am in the market for a new TV as well. Debating between the Sony LCoS tech and the Samsung DLP atm. Looking for a 50 to 60 inch screen.  Pros? Cons? Thoughts? Donations?  :-D

Sony Rear Projection:
Pros: Better picture. All around awesome set.
Cons: As with all rear projections, you have the posibility of "burn in".

DLP:
Pros: Usually cheaper, more "hardy" when it comes to useage. Wont suffer burn in.
Cons: Worse picture.

Check about gaming lag too if you're playing the "older" systems on it. If I remember correctly, Samsung DLPs had some of the worst gaming lag for the original Xbox and PS2.

Isn't that with the sound running to the set? I have played my xbox many times on my DLP without any lag issues. Definitely no sound lag on the pc.

I haven't seen an LCoS screen, so I dunno. The picture on George is totally awesome, though maybe you could consider it 'low res' now because it's 'only' 720p. Most new DLPs I've seen are 1080p and really nice. As Morph says, no burnin with DLP.

Biggest downside imo is the replacement bulbs. An extended warranty should cover at least one bulb, I bought mine early enough they will buy me two. After that, I'll be replacing the bulb on my own every two years with my fairly heavy usage, at $300 a pop (or sell the set and get a 1080p set...).

I think I've mentioned all this before in this thread ;) Oh, and:
(http://home.twcny.rr.com/iamthey/images/kahuna2.jpg)
;)

God damn, how many times are you gonna link that?

As many times as it takes?

You cant understand what its like playing on a 60 inch TV until you see it. It really is awesome.

I swear to god Hat, you have my same TV, you NEED to get a 360. Its just so awesome.

I thought that was just a plasma issue? Several reviews have mentioned the TVs having 'game modes', which would indicate to me that burn in isn't a worry.

Um, I have played on large TVs such as Sky's. Sure, it's cool, but I'm not a big A/V whore. Case in point: I still console game on a 32"/36" (Not sure on the size) TV from about 1982.

It, in no way, hinders my ability to enjoy games. You will never see more spend more than...I dunno, $500 on a TV. $6000 for a TV (some prices I have seen for high-end units around here)? I'd rather get a pimp PC, a car that I love, travel, hockey tickets, nice skiing gear...

It's great if you have one/can get one, but it's just not that high on my personal list of "things to get."

Long cut/paste INC!

Why does the lag occur? There are two related answers to this question. The first is the issue of native resolutions. Every TV, be it High-Def or Standard-Def, has a native resolution--a fixed display quality. Old-school CRTs are 480i, while more modern EDTVs and HDTVs run the gamut from 480p to variations of 720p (1024x768 [lower res than true 720p], 1280x720 [real 720p], and 1366x768) to 1080i and 1080p (1920x1080), as well as some odd resolutions in between.

Just as every TV has a native resolution, just about every source has a particular resolution as well. Every console that came before the PS2 produced a 480i signal. The PS2 was primarily a 480i system with a few 480p games, while the GameCube and Xbox were both primarily 480p, with a few 480i games and, in the case of the Xbox, a couple of 720p games. The Xbox 360 is able to output 480p, 720p, and 1080i, though the majority of the games are designed with 720p in mind. The Nintendo Wii will be a constant 480p. The first generation of HD-DVD players output 1080i as their native resolution, while the first generation of Blu-ray players will output native 1080p.

Here's the meat of the native resolution issue: While just about any HDTV can accept any other signal, like a 1366x768 native resolution HD-LCD accepting a 1080i signal from an HD-DVD player, the incoming signal must be scaled to match the native resolution of the TV, in this case down from 1920x1080 to 1366x768. This sort of processing takes real work to accomplish, which is handled by the internal scaling circuitry of the HDTV. The heaviest load usually occurs when an HDTV must up-scale a 480i signal to native resolution, which requires both enlarging the image and converting the signal from interlaced (the 'i' in 480i) to progressive-scan (the 'p' in 480p, 720p etc.).

Some HDTVs handle this task better than others; however, almost all models will develop at least a little lag in the time it takes them to up-scale an old-school 480i signal. This becomes a problem for retro-gaming fans who aim to play their 16-bit consoles on their expensive new HDTVs. Some HDTVs even produce a game-killing degree of lag when working with 480p or any signal that does not exactly match the native resolution of the TV itself.

The second cause for HDTV-gaming-lag is some HDTVs' image-enhancement processing, a related issue of image-scaling. Most common in older HDTVs that aimed to make DVDs and other Standard-Definition content look good compared to competing models, internal image enhancement spends time refining incoming signals before putting them on-screen. Samsung's DNIe technology is a well known variant of this technology. While image-enhancement can certainly help make HDTVs look better, most manufactures did not worry about introducing a degree of lag as a result, as the only application on their minds was DVD and TV signals, cases in which a half-second delay would hardly matter. For gamers, however, heavy image-enhancement can seriously add to the time it takes for commands executed in-game to make their way onto the screen.

As we mentioned earlier, some HDTVs are better at scaling and generating lag-free videogaming than others. While there can't be any hard and fast rules, HD-CRTs are generally credited with producing the least amount of lag, while DLP-based HDTVs (Samsungs in particular thanks to DNIe image enhancement) are often considered the worst. Of course, we've read a number of reports of laggy LCDs and plasma displays as well, which means that no HDTV technology is truly safe

Also, a great AVSFORUM link about it: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125

My TV has a "game mode" setting. I found that I had a tiny bit of lag on Xbox, when I first hooked it up, after switching to Gaming Mode, the lag went away.

Burn In can affect pretty much all TVs except DLP I think. Plasma is the most easy to burn, with rear projection after that. To burn a rear projection tv you would probably have to leave some thing on pause for like 48 hours straight or so I think.

Oh, yeah. I remember the lag issue now, it's been a while. Mostly a 480i thing, which would be why I don't see it much, I think I have maybe one 480i game. I mostly send it 720p directly, with the couple of xbox games I play and of course the pc is 1280x720 90% of the time (damn you Civ4). I also turn off DNIe, and it's automatically disabled with DVI, iirc.

Burn-in /can/ occur on any non-DLP. It can happen to any pc monitor, too. However, it's usually way overstated. Unless you are playing the same game all day every day for weeks on end, it's probably nothing to worry about. Look at an airport monitor or an old monitor that's running a cash register, or anything where the same GUI is on the screen all the time. We use to game on my buddy's old 50" 480i CRT (the old huge box kind), and there are dire warnings everywhere about those burning in, and it never did (though he never paid to service it after years of use and the convergence is all out of whack).
That's cool. I'm just pimping for those for whom gaming is their primary past-time, or high on the list. I'm happier with my $1500 guitar than my $3350 tv, guitar is my primary past-time. Luckily, I could afford both, though it took me a couple years (and remember, I gave up BEER for six months to save for the tv, heh). I could also say it's a shame to spend $2k on a pc and then feed that into a $400 monitor :)

@Morph: I would like to get a 360, it's on the list. However, building a new pc takes precedence because I mostly play pc games and I'm kinda resisting the idea of paying $60 instead of $40 for new games. Also, trying to fit a mortgage downpayment savings plan into that...I's got's ta make ma choices. As Straz says, I'd rather get a hard-disk digital audio workstation or a pro tools setup rather than a console.

Pro Tools, lol. Have fun with those plug-in packages.  :evil:

Probably not, since I want a control surface and would have to go with the digi002, which is around $2200, about $1700 over my budget :P Though the factory plugins are standard now.

Morph: I know, I know.  GoW might put me over the edge come tax return season (super heavy awesome tax return I predict!)

I love my tv so much.  It was super awesome playing games on the shuttle on it, but now the shuttle is borked.  I've shifted from the "prebuilt computers will save you money" to "fuck you, I'll build it myself" to "wish my console natively supported a keyboard and mouse, and bit torrent".

I got the tv to work 1800x1000ish (over HDMI) beautifully off the shuttle, and lots of games will let you put in a custom rez one way or another (BF2, oh beautiful BF2).

I also bought a shit 27" LCD for the bedroom (westinghouse).  Looks great from about 8' away, but like ass up close (signal is nonhd is over standard composite plugs, bleh!).

My in-laws called a couple nights ago as their old non-hdtv stopped working.  I recommended the 60inch version of this set. They ended up with the same set you got.

Very nice set. I might have to bring over my computer and see how BF2 looks on it.

I am looking at the 55 or 60 inch version. I want to snipe people in BF2 on it, but my wife doesn't like that idea for some reason.

Sounds like we should organize a group buy!

BF2 looks great on it, there's a custom resolution guide on the net somewhere that worked great for me.

You'll end up doing ~ 1800x1100 iirc.

Well - I'm a few bucks poorer. Bought the 60 inch version last night, so my tv peen is huge!

Both MrHat and I have that TV. Its fucking awesome. Now go get a Xbox 360 if you dont already have one.

Or a PS3. Ho Ho Ho.

Seriously though, get an Xbox - if only for Dead Rising.

My TV-peen is actually an Innie, if it ever existed at all.

I'm going to be so disappointed when I have to give up my current TV for a new HD set in 2 years. The Tank has served me well.

I'd love any input on how you got your PC's to work well with it. Having a heck of a time hitting any resolutions above 1280. Also like to say ATI drivers are pure crap still. Or if you could point me to the custom resolution guide.

I have to admit I'm a custom resolution moron. I just use 1280x720. I've found the Omega drivers are much better about different resolutions, like Civ4 which won't goddamned play in 16:9, it's 16:10 and the ATI drivers were crappy with a vertical 768 res. Omega at least lets me play until I remember how bland the game is.

I'll probably grab a 360 right about here. (http://www.eurogamer.net/tv_video.php?playlist_id=1372&s=l)

If I don't have a 360 by the time that game rolls around, I'll have a hard time resisting the system's siren call.

That there's some nice shiney.

I like the sounds more than anything actually.

But yeah, looks cool.

I'm more looking forward to Assassin's Creed though.

Shiny is nice. But shiny like that in a Bioware RPG? Yeah.

Gosh ATI has shitty drivers. I can get it to, 1920x1080 but it is overscanned. Then 1/2 the time I can take it down to like 1800x1016 or something, then on reboot it won't work, the other half it just won't do anything, then I have to take it to 720 then back up again. Then it won't go back to 1800 (underscanned for the whole). Or on reboot it will say it is unsupported.

I'll have to bring my gaming machine down and give it a try.

Are you using HDMI? I had a ton of problems with my VGA, switched to HDMI, and my ATI x800 literally said "SONY HDTV" and all was good.  I had to tweak the resolution a bit and it's sitting at like 1800x1000 or so.

If I turn it on without a 2nd screen/lcd it does to some never-never land and then I have to switch it back on the other monitor. I just don't think the wife will appreciate the asthetics of a 15" lcd next to her 60" tv...

I used VGA, and put the TV on input 8, which is also labeled PC Input. It seems that the Input 8 runs at much higher resolution. When I used HDMI, it seemed to run much lower res. Basically I plugged it in and let windows plug and play detect a new "Sony Monitor" and then I have to put all my computer settings on Extra Large Text, cause the resolution was so high.

Morph, are you sure it's high rez? I couldn't get the vga "PC Input" to go higher than 1280x720.

I was pretty sure it was, cause I normally run my PC at 1180xWhatever, and when I plugged in to the VGA port everything was sooooo small, I had to adjust all the text and icon sizes.

Do me a favor and check when you can.

Daddy's new baby (http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start?ProductSKU=KDSR60XBR2). Unfortunately it was a bit premature, so I can't bring it home yet (they sold the last one about an hour before I got the the damned store). I can't WAIT...nipples are hard in giddy anticipation.

Wont be for a few weeks. All my stuff is all over the place, cause we are getting new floors installed.

Grats WAP, you wont be disappointed. I bought mine a while ago, and I have yet to see a better picture on any new TV. The thing is fucking awesome. Gears of War on this TV is one of the best looking game experiences ever.

Congrats man!

Unfortunately, I've gotten to the point that my TV isn't 'new' to me anymore.  But having people over constantly reinforce my Vpeen.

It's hot shit.  Although, I think I need to get a repair man out (warranty ftw) to take a look at something that resembles a crescent shadow just above and to the right of the center point of my TV.  Not sure what it is, a ghost in the machine perhaps.

Also, I bought a Pioneer Elite VSX-8TX (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/product/details/0,,2076_310069789_310985777,00.html) a few months ago (before I started my new job!) and just recently set it up. The reason I wanted a high end receiver was because I was running out of HDMI plugs with my computer, dvd player, and a couple more things (hopefully a 360/PS3, a man can dream).  But now I have EVERYTHING plugged into the receiver (not my CPU, shuttle was down and I'm not gonna hook it back up till I finish the basement), and I'm not sure if that's the best way to plug it in, even though the receiver has a built in upscaler.  Just don't feel like I'm getting the most out of all the TV functions I have (since there's only one thing plugged into my TV now, the receiver via HDMI).

Oh, and I've got  Definitive Technologies  (http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/procinema/procinema_1000.html) 2x ProMonitor 1000 Fronts, 2x ProMonitor 800 Rears, ProCenter 1000 and ProSub 1000 for the surround sound waiting for my basement to be finished too. I sure as hell cashed out of Best Buy :-D

Woohoo! Another in the club! Can't wait until WAP checks out BF2 on da big screen :)

Now I'm feeling a little jealous with my 'old' 720p set :P

Re: resolution. I've always meant to try and coax higher resolutions out of my set, but I'm not sure it's possible with DVI. One thing that makes me wonder is that it can do 1280x768 (iirc, that's what Civ4 will do rather than 1280x720), but only with Omega drivers (9800pro). Maybe with the analog port you can juice it higher? I do, however, have an entirely different technology, only the same in the fixed-pixel nature...

Looks like the MPAA wants to watch me watch movies on my TV. (http://www.bbspot.com/News/2006/11/home-theater-regulations.html)

Little do they know that I regularly watch TV in nothing but a banana hammock.

Covered in Honey.  Orange flavored Honey.

I hope really hope that's a joke, it sure sounds like it hehe.

That has GOT to be a joke. The amount of money it would require just to make that system workable is OBSCENE, not to mention the asstons upon asstons of data that would have to be compiled. Considering that they are talking about retrofitting old equipment, I can't even imagine that would be legal because of the EULA's people would have in place from their old tech.

Not to mention the fact that it is a completely retarded fucking idea, further taking that DVD you bought away from being a purchase into being a rental. Fuck you, MPAA, there's a reason DivX died.

BBspot is a satire site like The Onion.

I was pwned by the internets.

But MS did actually buy Evil from Satan in the 90s.

So, my tv was FINALLY delivered on Friday, which, of course, was the only day I didn't have power (big storm knocked out power to 1.5M+ folks 'round here). Saturday we went down and got an HD DVR from Comcast and a TV stand, and got everything set up. I had some issues with a non-HD channel looking like total shit- ghosts and whatnot. Tinkered with the settings on the cable box and TV a bit, but I am still not enamored of the quality, especially for a sporting event (Hockey Night In Canada- has HD not been exported to the north yet? WTF??).

OTOH, the HD channels look fucking AMAZING. If my TV was a woman I might be forced to leave my wife.

Any advice on getting regular channels to look better? And all you Canucks on the board- get on the horn to CBC and get HNIC in HD ASAP. OK?  :evil:

OH NOES! ;)

Ehh...I just got used to the SD channels looking crappy. Turn off any 'sharpening' if your tv does that (DNIe on mine). Fox doesn't do HD on Time Warner around here yet, so we have to flip between an HD game and SD game...blah.

We can get HNIC in High Def, so WHO CARES ABOUT YOU!?

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/hdtv/

Yeah some of the stuff is counter-intuitive.  I had to turn down sharpness, contrast, brightness and blackness to get the picture the way I like it.  For SD, since it is displaying the same image only larger all of the imperfections get exaggerated, I stopped noticing it after a while too.  I also stretch the SD to fit the screen, I can't even notice that anymore.

When you say ghosting do you mean old antenna type ghosting of seeing bits of channel 3 on channel 4 or do you mean that if a person runs from left to right they leave a trail of themselves?  If the latter I've never seen that and would be concerned that something was wrong, you should also wait until after the break-in period to see if some of that goes away.

Saturday, Dec. 16     NYR vs TOR [National] HD
OTT vs BUF [Ottawa]
PIT vs MON [Que/Atl, no Nfld]
MIN vs VAN [National]    7 pm
7 pm
7 pm
10 pm

I got the Pit v Mon game and the Min v Van game, so that might explain it. Is there a separate HD channel for CBC, or is the same as the broadcast channel (99 on my cable system- very appropriate!).

I am just seeing an outline of each player, so more like the latter. The HD feeds look spectacular though, so I don't think anything is wrong with the set. I hope.

Dollars to doughnuts your lower channels are being served up in an analog feed, even if you're on 'digital cable'.  Ghosting, etc is a common issue, particularly when you have a local channel broadcasting on the same frequency that the analog channel is using.  Locally, the company I work for has a common issue on a handful of channels, particularly in houses with bad plant.  That said, we're converting all channels (including the formerly 'analog' ones) to digital feeds for digital subscribers - as an employee, I'm 'beta testing' the digital feeds for the lower channels currently and the difference is night and day.

To clean it up, you'll likely have to call the cable company.  You might want to check the other sets in your house and see if they all exhibit the problem - if not, you may be able to replace the line running to your glorious new set and fix it yourself - if they're all fuckered, it's likely outside.

Time Warner in my area just did something to the line or compression or somegoddamnthing. All the broadcast and basic cable channels look like they need the antenna fixed (I grew up in the country with 5 channels, it was all about the antenna). While it's obviously an analog issue, digital isn't without it's own compression problems. Our digital channels artifact like a mofo. I think a little analog haze is a little better than artifacting because at least you can still see the picture instead of black blocks.

Miasma, I don't know how you can use stretch mode. It drives me nuts, especially when TNT-HD does an SD movie with only the sides stretched. It's like watching a movie in a funhouse mirror.

CBC HD is a entirely different channel all together, but that's not saying much here since I have about 23 (seriously) different CBC feeds coming in on my Satellite. Only one is HD though.

Grrrrr. I just get the regular analog feed.

I saw a bit of the Columbus v Detroit game in HD last night between MNF commercials. HOLY CRAP does hockey look good in HD.

Drop Comcast?  What the commercials don't explain is that COMCASTIC is a synonym for ASSTASTIC.

By the way, welcome to the club.  You'll start wondering why your DVDs look worse than HD TV soon enough, then you'll be looking for that HDDVD or BRD player.

There is a decent chance I will dump Comcast next summer- as long as the dish of my choice offers NHL Center Ice, that is. By the time I moved into our new house this year, the NHL season was already in full swing and I had already paid for the package on Comcast.

I will probably go DirectTV for the NFL package, unless we end up getting Seahawks season tickets again (no point in paying for the package if I am only home for 1/2 the season!). I could probably heat my home for the winter on DISH network mailings...been in the house about 8 weeks now and I get something 2-3 times/week.

Yet DISH is so affordable....How do they manage?