f13.net

My laptop's four years old and dying bit by bit.  The DVD drive is dead, and the wireless card seems to have given out.  I want to replace the thing, but I'd rather go for a desktop than a PC.  I'd like to spend between $1000 and $1400, and I'm hoping to include a 22" monitor in that price - so between $700 and $1100 on the system itself, I guess.  I don't know the first thing about building a machine, so I'm probably going to buy something from Dell or HP or what have you.

If I was smart, I'd be getting a machine too slow to run any kind of game (as I've got too much work to do), but what I'm really interested in is something that'll be able to run Diablo III, Spore, and assorted other 2009 games with ease.  So: recommendations?  What are the minimums that I'll have to get in terms of CPU speed, memory, graphics card, etc?  Do I need quad core, or can I get by with just two?

Serious apologies for my complete ignorance; it's been years since I knew anything about hardware.

If anything I'd recommend the new 4850's from ATI.  Great graphics card for the money.

Delay your upgrade until 2010.

ARS TECHNICA PC BUILDING GUIDE

  Currently there's a deal on HP Pavilion Elite m9300t series HERE (http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can_series.do?storeName=computer_store&category=desktops&a1=Category&v1=Entertainment+powerhouse&series_name=m9300t_series&aoid=35252)

  Use coupon code DT3412 for the $400 off $1000 discount.

You can customize it to your liking, but for example;

HP m9300t
# – Genuine Windows Vista Home Premium with Service Pack 1 (32-bit)
# – Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Quad processor Q9450 (2.66GHz)
# – FREE UPGRADE to 3GB DDR2-800MHz dual channel SDRAM from 2GB
# – 256MB NVIDIA GeForce 9300, DVI-I, VGA adapter,HDMI
# – No Modem
# – 320GB 7200 rpm SATA 3Gb/s hard drive
# – LightScribe 16X max. DVD+/-R/RW SuperMulti drive
# – 15-in-1 memory card reader, 2 USB, 1394, video, audio
# – ATSC-NTSC HD TV tuner with PVR, FM tuner, remote
# – Integrated 7.1 channel sound w/front audio ports
# – Norton Internet Security(TM) 2008 - 15 month
# – Microsoft(R) Works 9.0
# - 10/100/1000 Mbps network interface (the Inspiron has only 100 Mbps)
# – HP keyboard and HP optical mouse

This setup comes to $999-$400 = $599+tax with free shipping.

  Definitely not a bad deal at all if you're not looking to build one yourself, and the best bang for your buck currently if you're planning on Dell/HP, you just need a monitor and you are off and running.

  With a budget of $1400, I'm sure there's SOME really nice monitors in the $900 range ;)

HIH

Need to set aside a couple hundred for a vid card upgrade too.  At a guess, that 9300 isn't going to run anything.

It'll run WoW :awesome_for_real: (and CoH and Guild Wars and ...)

.. mine sweeper.

I would really encourage you to try and hold on until the new Nehilum(sp?) chips are released. In the benchmarks at anandtech they are blowing everything out of the water. They are supposed to be released in November I believe.

Thanks for the tip - though I should've mentioned that I live in Canada, and it seems like that deal doesn't apply up north.

Not sure if I can wait, Morfiend: using my roommate's computer while he's away during the day is fine for awhile, but I can see this getting old.

The GeForce 9300 is too slow, okay; the 9500GS is only $50 more expensive, and has twice as much memory - does it run twice as fast?  The 9800GT is $250 more with 1GB of memory - does the performance increase warrant the increase in cost?  I guess I'm asking: what's the minimum I can get away with here?

An 8800GT will run anything out extremely well, and you can get one for around $130 after rebate if you shop around.  The stock coolers suck balls, though, so I'd reccomend getting an aftermarket cooler for it ASAP.

What he said, though I'm not sure if replacing the stock cooler is necessary or not (I haven't, and no melty so far).

As a good rule of thumb for Nvidia, if it isn't at least an x6xx series or higher, ignore it.  Money out the window, in my opinion.  And don't assume that the x6xx is better than the x8xx from the previous generation (i.e. 9600 better than 8800)...that is often not true.  8800 GTs are great cards.  If the 9800s are coming down in price, then get one of those.  8600 and 9600 cards are decent, but probably not much of a value these days.

Edit:  Should have mentioned that with the MAJOR turbulence in the GPU market over th last few days and weeks, it may pay to wait and see.  Prices are crashing for some cards, and ATI shouldn't be overlooked.

  I'll second the ATI route, I just picked up a Radeon 4850 512mb for $175 before the $30 Mail In Rebate.  Performance wise, it's better than anything else remotely close to the price range from Nvidia.

  So you could do that box with a 512mb 4850 for under $600.  Considering the retail on the Q6600 is still in the $200 range, it's actually close to what you would pay for just the components retail, if not cheaper depending on if you need the kb/mouse/wireless lan/dvdr/hd etc.

Good to know!  Now if only I had a residential address in the USA...

Oh, and now I know that Fallout 3's coming out this fall, THAT'S the performance benchmark I'm shooting for.  Doesn't help that they haven't announced system specs yet.

I'm thinking that we're going to be looking at Oblivion-like requirements, but slightly bumped up.  Should be very accessible by today's hardware standards.

I think you meant that...

Why?  I played Oblivion quite easily on not the last video card I owned, but the one before that.  I know they've enhanced the Oblivion engine, but not by that much.

Anyone bought from CyberPower (http://)?  The have a pretty decent choice and a 3 year warranty.  PC Gamer has given a pretty decent review on them too.  It is a bit more, like I'm building my computer for about $1600, about the same from them would be $1800.  Since I'm updating 2 computers that is $400 I saved by building, plus I got to pick the componets I am using.  Allthough sometimes the thought of having it done and ready to go when it arrives is nice too...

I think an 8800GT (or GTS 512Mb) is a good choice. People will rave on about how the latest ATI is better, or one 8800 G-something is better than the other, but the 8800s were the price-performance sweet spot for a while and it's sensible for a non-builder/non-upgrader to choose proven technology that already has significant market penetration. If I were you, for that reason I'd avoid the new ATIs at the moment.

I wouldn't. If you don't trust ATI, at least go for a 9800gtx+ for the small amount more than the 8800gt(s)

But I'd go for the 4850 if you're looking at a card around $200, or the 4870 for $300

So, jumping in on this rather than starting a new thread.

My four year-old old PC has recently decided that my monitor doesn't exist after Windows loads. I suppose it believes that it's merely a figment of the BIOS' imagination. After an hour of connecting and reconnecting wires and starting and restarting the piece of shit, I've decided that I'm fucking DONE. I'll forego the lasik surgery I'd planned in favor of less frustration where I spend 6-8 hours a day.

I have $3000 in savings. I don't need a monitor - I have a great one just six months old (on those occasions the computer can find it). I don't need speakers, I have a THX 5.1 system that's already too big for the miniscule office space the wife and kid leave me. I might not even need a sound card, as my Audigy 2 ZX Platinum seems pretty solid. Whether it can work in a modern system is another question.

I'm an audiophile. I don't need or want wireless anything. The most graphics-intensive game I usually play is LotRO, though I'd like to try AoC. I'd prefer XP, but if it needs to be the bloated crap OS, so be it. Just so long as I'm actually seeing a return for the investment (fguring that 3GB RAM under XP ~= 4GB RAM under Vista). I prefer two drives, one for system stuff and a larger one as an MP3/doc/game archive, but I don't need RAID.

What's the best thing I can build? Advise me, o secret masters.

  I just finished ordering one this week actually for a friend of mine (It's a side hobby, and you'd be amazed at how much I make from Ebay from the "old" computers people give me when I build them a new one)

I did;

 SAPPHIRE 100242L Radeon HD 4850 512MB $159.99
 OCZ Platinum 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) $94.99
 ASUS P5K PRO LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard $104.99
 Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz 6MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor - Retail $185.99
 SAMSUNG Black 22X 2MB Cache SATA 22X DVD Burner - OEM $27.99
 Maxtor L01F1000 1TB SATA HARD DRIVE KT $159.99
 Antec BP550 Plus 550W ATX12V V2.2 Power Supply $49.99
 Antec Nine Hundred ATX Ultimate Case $75

$858.93

  Some of the parts were recycled, but that's a pretty good idea of what I ended up with, and those are current prices in the last month or so.  There's definitely room for improvement, but I try to use the best available price/performance parts, and I'm currently a huge fan of the E8400.  I also build about 5 systems per month, so I keep a close eye on pricing and hop on quantities when prices get to a sweet spot, and I can afford to be patient and buy multiples to avoid shipping whenever available.

I've been chatting with a friend, and he's volunteered to help me build one, so I'm leaning towards that option.

"Canada's Premiere Computer Store" is NCIX.com, apparently; have any of you used them?  Are there better places to shop?

Can you load Windows in Safe Mode and tweak the Windows video settings? Press F8 as your PC boots - tap it or hold it down before the Windows splash screen - and select safe mode. If you can get into Windows this way, check the resolution and refresh rate. Sounds like your monitor is saying "do not want" to whatever settings Windows is trying to output.


As you're an audiophile with good speakers and gaming interests, consider an X-Fi. To my ears, X-Fi sound reproduction is far richer and more beautiful than older sound cards. I went from an Audigy 1 to an X-Fi ExtremeMusic and was surprised by how much better the sound was from the same speakers.

I'm talking basic, unmodified music and movie playback on an X-Fi, without the card's "enhancements". The downside of an X-Fi is it has three different modes to switch between - gaming (to process the extra effects), entertainment (for music purity) and audio creation (for recording). The gaming sound output is also something to behold. But I have been known to forget to switch back to entertainment mode after gaming and wonder if I had imagined the quality.

Last I heard, some people liked the Bluegears b-Enspirer (http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/article.asp?SCID=88&CIID=76761) better than the X-Fi. I've never heard one.


I haven't built for a while, but hardware prices are low so I've no idea how to spend US$3000 without a monitor unless you went nuts with high-end SLI (which you just don't need). Make sure you put some money into the motherboard so you have plenty of options, and choose a really nice case with awesome cooling. I'd probably go Vista 64 with 4 gigs RAM (as 2x 2Gb on a motherboard with 4 RAM slots), which gives you a path to upgrades.

So I've done some shopping, and I've come up with what I think will be an okay, reasonably cheap build at ncix.com (which will ship to Canada).  I'd love to hear comments, since I really don't know about compatibility issues.

Palit GeForce 8800GT Sonic 650MHZ 512MB - $154.99   
AMD Athlon 64 X2 6000+ Dual Core Processor - $129.57
Open Box Coolermaster Elite RC-330 ATX Blk Case - $40.57
OCZ Platinum XTC REV.2 PC2-6400 2GB 2X1GB DDR2-800 - $69.99
Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 320GB SATA2 3GB/S 7200RPM 16MB Cache NCQ Hard Drive - $63.78
Open Box ASUS M2A-VM mATX AM2 AMD 690G DDR2 PCI-E16 PCI-E1 2PCI Video VGA DVI-D Sound Motherboard - $60.99
LG G-H20NS10 Black DVD+RW 20X8X16 DVD-RW 20X6X16 INT SATA OEM DVD Writer - $29.93
OCZ StealthXStream OCZ500SXS 500W ATX12V 24PIN Active PFC ATX Power Supply 120MM Fan Black - $61.99
Aopen KB-858 Windows Keyboard Black PS/2 - $10.59
OCZ X-750 Equalizer Laser Gaming Mouse - $29.99

...And I think I'll be getting Dell's UltraSharp 2208WFP 22 inch Widescreen Flat Panel LCD Monitor, which is on for $299.

A few of these are out-of-the-box deals, and several others have mail-in rebates, so the total cost will be around $900.

Am I missing anything?  I bow to your collective wisdom.

Edit: Also, would you go Vista 32 or 64 for this?  Would it be worth it to add 2GB of RAM and use 64?

Are you going to order those parts and build it yourself? I checked out that site the other day when I first heard of it and noticed that they have a flat 50 dollar fee to build it and test it for you. For 50 bucks I can't see risking the kind of aggravation that I've seen described in threads around here.

Totally have them build it for you. I have built all my machines since 1998 onwards, and for 50 bucks, I'd have 'em build it and test it there. Nothing like getting all the parts, start to build, and find you have a bad stick of ram or a bad PSU.

Is there any reason why you are going with AMD instead of Intel for the CPU?

Here's my first stab at pricing something out on NCIX.com. I'm pleased with the price, given that I expected to spend around $3K, and I indulged myself in many places. Most dear to my heart are, in order, the audio, storage capacity, and the best DDR2 RAM available... because what I read indicated that DDR3 isn't quite up to snuff yet.

Opinions?

Processor (CPU)
AMD Phenom X4 9850 Black Edition Quad Core Processor Socket AM2 2.5GHZ 4MB Cache 125W Retail Box - $264.48
   
Motherboard
ASUS M3A32-MVP Deluxe AMD 790FX AM2+ 4PCI-E16 CrossFireX 2PCI SATA2 RAID Sound GBLAN Motherboard - $214.99

DDR2 Memory (RAM)
Corsair XMS2 TWIN2X2048-9136C5D 2GB 2X1GB PC2-9136 DDR2-1142 CL 5-5-5-15-2T 240PIN Dual Memory Kit - $575.39

Video Cards
Radeon HD 4850 OEM 625MHZ 512MB GDDR3 1.986GHZ PCI-E Dual DVI-I - 2x $209.99 = $419.98

Computer Case
LIAN-LI PC-A10A Silver Aluminum ATX Mid Tower Case 7X5.25 5X3.5INT No PS W/ Front USB 1394 Audio - $259.99
   
CPU Cooling
Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 PWM AM2 S754 S939 S940 900-2200RPM 40CFM 4PIN Heatsink Fan - $27.42
   
Power Supply
Coolermaster Real Power 750W ATX 12V V2.2 SLI Active PFC 80PLUS Power Supply 120MM Fan - $132.25

Warranty
1 Year Parts & 1 Years Labour Limited Warranty On System Components - $0.00
   
Operating System
Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition OEM - $99.55
(I can get this 100% refunded using BioWare's productivity software allowance... the first time I've used it)

Hard Drive 1
Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 3.5IN 500GB SATA2 8.5MS 7200RPM 32MB Cache NCQ Hard Drive OEM - $89.00
   
Hard Drive 2
Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 1000GB 1TB SATA2 7200RPM 32MB Cache NCQ Hard Drive OEM - $199.23
   
DVD Writer
Samsung SH-S203N Black SATA DVD+RW 20X8X16 DVD-RW 20X6X16 DL18X/12X Lightscribe DVD Writer OEM W/ SW - $36.01

DVD-ROM
ASUS 16X DVD-ROM Drive SATA Retail Box W/ Black & Beige Faceplates - $26.45
   
Floppy
Sony Black 1.44MB 3.5IN Floppy Drive ( OEM ) - $10.50

Sound Card
Creative Sound Blaster X-FI Elite Pro PCI 24BIT/192KHZ Sound Card W/ Breakout Box & Remote - $282.72

Full assembly and testing of the system - $0.00

YOUR TOTAL
All quoted prices are in CANADIAN DOLLARS    $2,637.96

I discovered that if you spend more than $2000, you get the assembly and testing gratis.

Are you planning on overclocking? The "best" RAM isn't necessarily the one with the highest bandwidth -- faster timings may be better for you depending.

Why are you getting a Phenom?

Edit: Why do I see 2 people getting a Phenom?

Honestly, I haven't decided. For everyday use I probably wouldn't need to, but it's nice to have that little bit extra available if I need it.

What would you recommend?

Schild - a Phenom with an X-number at the end is from the new "second batch (http://techreport.com/articles.x/14424)." They don't have the "errata" problem.

Fuck errata. In the last week did they suddenly become better than Quad Cores?

Not for all out performance. I haven't done a recent price/performance comparison, though.

The Q9450 is 60CAD more than that processor. And has 8MB more level 2 cache and is outright Much Faster. But then, I recommend this processor to Everybody. Also, my fan died on my 8800 GT. I think. Downloaded speedfan at the cafe I'm posting from, will test when I get home. Thankfully the heatpipes on the ridiculous cooler are adequate enough for most games.

Actually now that I look I doesn't like there's anything faster than 5-5-5-15 for DDR2 1066 in the 1 GB size so it doesn't matter.

Intel Core 2 Quad Q9450 Yorkfield 2.66GHz 12MB L2 Cache LGA 775 95W price : 329 at newegg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115042)
AMD Phenom 9950 BLACK EDITION 2.6GHz 4 x 512KB L2 Cache 2MB L3 price : $235 at newgg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103273)

Gaming benchmarks (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3344&p=15)

Upshot? To my view, the $100 bucks more eeks out a bit more performance in the Intel, but neither of them are slouchy processors. If you want to shave a C note off your bill, and you are an AMD fan anyways, this is probably a decent bang for the buck.

One question Stormwaltz - can't you get a good deal on a PC through work?  I'm assuming Bioware goes through a fair number and must have a relationship with a local vendor. When I've worked for companies like that I've often gotten a good deal on PCs that way. Even when the company itself won't do anything to help me with the PC the vendor often offers me a good price just to get a little more goodwill with my company.

If I can do it without paying too much of a premium I think it's worth it to have a relationship with a local brick and mortar store. When something goes wrong it's nice to be able to throw the PC in the trunk rather than go through the shipping hassle.

Something to consider if choosing AMD ...

Intel Core 2 Duo and Core 2 Quad have dominated for a couple of years now. They almost knocked AMD out of consideration. Die-hard AMD fans switched to Intel processors. Even Apple went to Intel processors. Games currently in development will assume Core 2 Duo/Quad as normal.

This is not the same as the AMD vs Intel decision we used to make in the old days.

(edit - i are have extra words)

We do have a deal with a local vendor, but it's not always greatly beneficial. As it's been explained to me, they provide discounts on a percentage of their markup, but never on an item they have to order for you. I tried to get a $700 LCD flatscreen from them last year; because it was something they'd have to order for me, I wouldn't have received any discount.

Likely as not I'd only see a significant discount on parts that were recently released (high markup) but not wildly popular (i.e. sold out and have to be reordered). I will be looking into it, but right now NCIX is showing me cheap and convenient. I can get everything from one source at one time, they'll build and test it, and they take PayPal.

  I'm a former diehard AMD fan, and I've even switched both of my PC's over to Intel in the past 6 months.  I like the E8400 if you're doing mostly gaming (At this point quad cores don't really make much of a difference), and it's at the best price/performance point if you can pick one up for under $200US.  You can push an E8400 to 4ghz on air if you are going to OC.

  The other consideration would be the Nehalem chips that are due at the end of Sept/Early Oct.  Buying high end now may not be the best route to take, with the new tech coming so soon, prices on the current market are sure to drop considerably, not to mention the fact that it's ANOTHER new socket type, so you're future upgradability will be limited.   Link to Tom's Hardware Nehalem preview  (http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/intel-nehalem-core,news-28701.html)  23% increase in cpu benchmarks at same clock/cores from the Nehalem chipset.

    The one other thing that scared me was;

Video Cards
Radeon HD 4850 OEM 625MHZ 512MB GDDR3 1.986GHZ PCI-E Dual DVI-I - 2x $209.99 = $419.98

  The 4850 is a heat MONSTER.  I'd be pretty scared to run 2 of them without at least considering aftermarket cooling for both, as well as some serious airflow or water considerations.  My single 4850 (oc to 690/1128) with a fan tweak is running at 52C idle, stock it was in the 70c range before I put serious effort into driving the temp down.  52C may not seem like a lot, but if it's 70C before, that mean's I'm pushing all of that heat into the box, and that's at idle.  Current fan modifications keep it running at a higher rate, and consequently makes it a lot noisier than I desire, so if that's a concern for you, it's something to think about.

HIH

Something got tangled in the fan on my vid card. Burnt out. Going to get a new one today. /snarl

Nearly $600 for 4 GB of memory?  I know you're going for an extreme system, but this seems pricey for not much benefit.

Personally I think you get the best value staying a step or two back from the cutting edge. I'd rather spend half of what Stormwaltz is spending and upgrade twice as often.

What's weird is my Corsair XMS2 Twinx 4GB pack cost me uhhhh $80. Same latency, just slower DDR2.

I read a price/performance article comparing Intel's lower range Core 2 Duo to AMD's X2 range, and AMD came out favourably for about $40 less.  Plus, the motherboard I'm going with explicitly lists compatibility with the X2.  That said, I'm thinking you're right about Intel being the better choice in terms of the rest of the market, Tale.

Oh well.  Ordered.  I picked up some last-minute deals, upgrading the hard drive to 500 GB for free, spending less on the mouse and on Vista, and getting a BFG 8800 GT instead of a Palit.  That plus a 22" monitor came to ~$1200.  Can't WAIT for this thing to arrive.

I can add water cooling (NCIX offers those installed too), but is there an ATI card that's "almost as good" without the heat problems?


Actually, it's $600 for just 2GB. I'm not going to use Vista -- I'm waiting for the "fixed" version due in the next couple years. Since XP can only handle under 3GB of RAM, I figured it would behoove me to shoot for quality in place of quantity.

Another question for those with superior knowledge -- how can I figure out how much power this will draw? I have a 750w power supply configured now, but that was a blatent guess. With two video cards, should I get a 1000w supply?

The problem with the 4950 is it exhausts into the case. Get a single 4870, it exhausts outside. Then turn up the default fan speed so it runs cooler. Mine idles at 39C with the fan at 60% on the latest drivers.

You can always add another, or a 4870x2 when they're released next month, if you need more video bang.

http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculator.jsp

  This will tell you how much power your system needs.

I can't answer your power question, but even with XP you might be better off spending less on more not-quite-as-good RAM and then using what you saved to get the 64 bit version of the OS so you can recognize more memory. Of course 64 bit XP may no longer be available, not sure. (Vista has the same limitation btw.)

There is no reason whatsoever to go to 64-bit XP, may as well go straight to Vista.

My primary objection to Vista is that it requires so much RAM to merely operate. I don't actually gain the two GB of RAM I'm paying for if one of them is always occupied by the OS.

Some copies of XP 64 are available on Ebay for ~$130, but I think I agree with Schild. A quick bit of research suggests XP64 has as many compatibility problems as Vista, but it's not supported anymore. Its MS web site consists solely of a link to the Vista site.

Great link, Ralence, thanks. EDIT: Fascinating. Even with 40% power supply aging factored in, my original setup came out as 633 watts. Looks like the 750 will work just fine.

Incidentally, I didn't know about power supply aging. That explains why I had to replace my current computer's halfway through its life.

Really man, RAM's speed just isn't worth that price tag. Buy what Schild proposes, and spend the money on a velociraptor hard drive if you want a speed boost somewhere.

Another test using some recommended changes. The RAM is significantly cheaper, but the final price is higher because of the two outwards-venting 4870 model video cards and the Velociraptor hard drive. Apparently they only have one raptor model with more than 74GB of storage, and it's as bleeding-edge pricey as the old RAM. I figure it won't actually help to have the fast drive if I can't install more than one modern game at a time on it.

So the 1TB HD is the secondary, used for safe storage of docs, mp3s, and non-intensive/older games. The fast HD will be for the OS, utility programs, and whatever high-end games/MMORPGs I'm playing at the moment. This is still a 2GB XP system.

The calculated power need with new video cards and 40% aging is 745w, which is a bit close to the power source capacity. I may drop the 3.5" floppy just to shave off 6w of draw.

EDIT: It's not that I want a bleeding edge system, necessarily. It's just that I know from long experience that I only get a chance to upgrade every 4-5 years, and I need to make sure that what I get is reasonably future-proofed.

Opinions?

Processor (CPU)
AMD Phenom X4 9850 Black Edition Quad Core Processor Socket AM2 2.5GHZ 4MB Cache 125W Retail Box - $264.48
   
Motherboard
ASUS M3A32-MVP Deluxe AMD 790FX AM2+ 4PCI-E16 CrossFireX 2PCI SATA2 RAID Sound GBLAN Motherboard - $214.99

DDR2 Memory (RAM)
Corsair XMS2 TWIN2X2048-8500C5D 2GB 2X1GB PC2-8500 DDR2-1066 CL 5-5-5-15-2T Dual Channel Memory - $149.98

Video Cards
Radeon HD 4870 OEM 750MHZ 512MB GDDR5 3.6GHZ PCI-E Dual DVI-I - 2x $309.99 = $619.98

CPU Cooling
Arctic Cooling Freezer 64 PWM AM2 S754 S939 S940 900-2200RPM 40CFM 4PIN Heatsink Fan - $27.42
   
Power Supply
Coolermaster Real Power 750W ATX 12V V2.2 SLI Active PFC 80PLUS Power Supply 120MM Fan - $132.25

Hard Drive 1
Western Digital Velociraptor WD3000GLFS 300GB SATA2 10000RPM 5.5MS 16MB 3.5IN Hard Drive OEM - $89.00
   
Hard Drive 2
Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 1000GB 1TB SATA2 7200RPM 32MB Cache NCQ Hard Drive OEM - $329.99
   
DVD Writer
Samsung SH-S203N Black SATA DVD+RW 20X8X16 DVD-RW 20X6X16 DL18X/12X Lightscribe DVD Writer OEM W/ SW - $36.01

DVD-ROM
ASUS 16X DVD-ROM Drive SATA Retail Box W/ Black & Beige Faceplates - $26.45
   
Floppy
Sony Black 1.44MB 3.5IN Floppy Drive ( OEM ) - $10.50

Sound Card
Creative Sound Blaster X-FI Elite Pro PCI 24BIT/192KHZ Sound Card W/ Breakout Box & Remote - $282.72

YOUR TOTAL
All quoted prices are in CANADIAN DOLLARS    $2,653.54 (was: $2,637.96)

You know...if you wanted to be a total speed demon, you could get 3 more velociraptors, put the 4 into RAID 5 array (your motherboard allows this).. <evil grin> Your case, the Lian Li, would accomodate the 5 drives, and since they're housed below decks with a devider, they shouldn't add too much to heat, although of course, you're liable to get a wee bit more noise.

I honestly am not sold on AMD Phenom, tho. Tale brought up some good points about AMD.

Yeah, I hear them. But I tried a modified configuration with the Intel Q9450 and a good Asus motherboard, and the price ballooned to nearly $2900.

EDIT: Maybe someone can suggest a better motherboard than the P5E series that can handle this particular hardware configuration? The only one I could find that mentioned everything I needed included onboard WiFi that I don't need, and cost $350.

So, what you're saying is, that place is way overpriced.

My machine, all told, cost $1200. $1500 if you count the case.

Possibly. But I did choose a pair of fancy-pants $310 video cards and hard drives at $330 and $200, so maybe it's my own doing.

NVIDIA provides a nice page with the recommended power supplies depending on which SLI setup you want:

http://www.slizone.com/object/slizone_build_psu.html

Dunno if ATI/AMD provides something similiar but you might want to poke around their sites.

That 1 TB hard drive price doesn't look right. I see it at $199. Are you buying a pair of open box ones or something?

If it were me, I'd ixnay the extra dvd drive, the velociraptor, the sound card, the floppy drive, and do one or all of the following:
1)  Get more RAM, go with Vista 64 - pocket the cash
2)  Get more RAM, go with Vista, switch to Intel setup
3)  Put the extra to a kick ass monitor

BTW, what resolution are you expecting to play at?

He already has a nice monitor and he likes the sound card (he says he's an audiophile).

That's the one I rounded up to $200. The $330 drive is the 300GB Velociraptor.

My monitor is a 21" LCD with 1600x1200 native resolution. EDIT: This one. (http://www.viewsonic.com/products/lcddisplays/proseries/vp2130b/)

I think dropping the second DVD and floppy drives are a good idea, though it only saves ~$45. I probably wouldn't use them very often.

Vista... ugh. Really, no.

Is Vista really so bad even now? Everything I've read says it's fine on a system fast enough to handle it.

No.

I will go beyond this and say Vista is a delight to use.

Does it still occupy around one gig of RAM just to run?

If not, I'll change to Vista and 4GB. Really, that's the only issue for me. Paying for 4GB and getting only 3 sticks in my craw.

Vista uses a lot of RAM. But the increased performance and stability I gained in terms of alt-tabbing made it worth it. I alt-tab like it's more fun than a game itself and Vista hasn't had issues with really any games I can think of once I've patched up to date. And really, you were about to spend a $7 times what I paid for RAM on 2 GB and would not have seen better performance. Once again, 2 sticks of 2GB DDR2-800 or hell, even go 8GB and go with Vista 64.

I use vista64 with 8gigs of memory and a minimal swap file. It's very, very nice. The only problems I've had have been with addon sound cards. One didn't have drivers before I sent it away, and the Xfi has creative drivers, which blow goats.

I'm using onboard sound, Realtek HD audio is acceptable.

Awesome!  You just single-handedly killed any chance of Stormie getting Vista 64. :drillf:

Or, you know, Storm could just see if his sound cards have vista 64 drivers.

Another experiment. Schild piqued my curiosity. I changed the 300GB Velociraptor back to the original 500GB Seagate and applied the money to 8GB RAM and Vista Home 64. I also dropped the extra media drives, keeping only the DVD-RW. The price dropped to $120 less than my first draft.

The RAM is puzzling. Corsair has two 2GB stick models at the same price point, one of which has lower latency numbers. I checked the spec sheets for them, and they were identical save that one was tested at 4-4-4-12 and the other at 5-5-5-18. It makes me suspect there's a difference so subtle that it requires more tech knowledge than I have to note.

Where can I find more information about these Creative driver issues?

EDIT: LOL (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080331-creative-irate-after-modder-spruces-up-vista-x-fi-drivers.html)


Processor (CPU)
AMD Phenom X4 9850 Black Edition Quad Core Processor Socket AM2 2.5GHZ 4MB Cache 125W Retail Box - $264.48
   
Motherboard
ASUS M3A32-MVP Deluxe AMD 790FX AM2+ 4PCI-E16 CrossFireX 2PCI SATA2 RAID Sound GBLAN Motherboard - $214.99

DDR2 Memory (RAM)
Corsair XMS2 DHX TWIN2X4096-6400C4DHX 4GB DDR2 2X2GB PC2-6400 DDR2-800 CL 4-4-4-12 240PIN Memory Kit 2x $144.99 = $289.98
   -or-
Corsair XMS2 DHX TWIN2X4096-6400C5DHX 4GB DDR2 2X2GB PC2-6400 DDR2-800 CL 5-5-5-18 240PIN Memory Kit 2x $144.99 = $289.98

Video Cards
Radeon HD 4870 OEM 750MHZ 512MB GDDR5 3.6GHZ PCI-E Dual DVI-I - 2x $309.99 = $619.98

YOUR TOTAL
All quoted prices are in CANADIAN DOLLARS    $2,517.05 (original price: $2,637.96)

I still don't understand why that RAM costs so damn much. Even 8 GB should only cost $200 or so. >_>

Kill one of the graphics cards. Still a terrible decision. I would seriously recommend killing one, getting an Intel Q9450 and a Intel designed mobo. It will still come in under the current board and you REALLY DON'T NEED TWO 4870s unless you're playing something so heavy that it requires it. Like Crysis 3. I'm sorry, but I just can't get behind that kind of computer building.

Does it make more sense if I say that I expect to still be using this same machine to play games released in 2012?

I've had my current computer for over four years. The one before that I had for nearly five. Except to replace a failing power source and add hard drives, I never upgraded either. Computer purchasing is something I have to do all at once - and I expect that will only get worse with a second child on the way.

But Moore's law just don't work that way, hoss. If I'd have gotten two 7950gx2 in SLI two years ago, they still wouldn't be as good as a single 8800gtx now, not to mention the 9000 series or the new 000 series.

Also on paper Crossfire can handle "mixed" GPUs while NVIDIA is only just barely starting to support that sort of thing (their "Hybrid SLI" thingy). Dunno how well it actually works, though, since I haven't been paying attention to ATI for quite some time. So you might be better off just getting the one card now and seeing what's available in a year or two.

Edit: and you can still use your first card (in theory) along side any new one

Same here. If money is an issue, set aside $200 now and use $400 to buy a single 4870 and buy whatever the third gen after that is 4 years from now and you won't have spent any more and $200 will destroy your 4870.

I agree with Trippy and Schild. Single 4870, you can always throw in another later.

And I don't trust the Phenom yet. Too many issues early on, and the current multicore intel chips are 'teh foine'

I agree with the guys in the messages above. No matter how much you spend now you're going to be miserable in 4 years because that's just too long between upgrades. Spend much less and set aside some money for a new graphics card in a year or two and you'll be a lot happier.

Not really. Because the capabilities/features (not speed) of the video card and CPU, along with the amount (not speed) of RAM, are the most important things for running games. I don't think investing in speed today will make any difference when you're wanting specific features to run a game in 2012.

Big differences in speed become smaller over time. A PC with a Pentium 75 used to sell for $2000 while a Pentium 100 sold for $5000 (I speak in Aussie dollars). People paid $5000 because they wanted a system that would last. But it didn't last any longer than the P75 because the technology dated. The 25MHz speed difference, significant at the time of purchase, soon became irrelevant because they were same-era Pentiums and lacked the instruction sets available on newer processors.

That's when I learned to aim for the lower end of new generations of technology. It's already happened with the first Core 2 Duos - what is the real world difference between an E6300 and an E6800 today? They used to be the low and high end of the range. In gaming terms now, they are simply Core 2 Duos and if you have an up-to-date video card and a few gigs of RAM, you're not going to notice the difference in how games run.

Today's best graphics cards will probably be beaten by a single mid-range card 18 months from now. The minimum video card feature set for games released in 2012 might not even be on the market yet.

I say invest in a good case and PSU (I like your choices), motherboard and CPU (I think Intel quad core, as software's use of multiprocessing may improve), and I reckon those will be a good base until 2012. Upgrade your video card every couple of years and never aim too high with that component, and you won't spend any more over time than you're aiming to spend now.

Buy RAM with a mind to either increasing the number of gigabytes in the future (I don't care what speed, but make sure you buy a kind that will be available in the future to match up with your old stuff), or fill all the slots now and build with 8Gb RAM, which will probably be normal by 2010.

I can confirm.

I built my pc yesterday, the CPU cores were at about 36 idle, the videocard was at 68 under Aero (but it didn't seem to make a difference if I ran normal windows). If I put a finger above the CPU it's HOT.

I guess there isn't any way to mod the fan speed with the default drivers?

P.S.
I wouldn't buy the HD4870. It fills two slots, runs even hotter and they say the fan speed can get very loud. Even for gaming the best choice is always to buy the best videocard at accessible price (right now the 4850) and then upgrade more often.

Re Crossfire or SLI:
Buy one now.  Wait 6 months when you may or may not need it, buy the second one for 1/4 the price.

With SLI you have to be careful. If you buy a GPU that's at it's end-of-life you may not be able to get a matching one in 6 months time. This is what happened to me with the 7800 GT.

I have a 4870. It's two slots, so it vents to outside the case. You can set up a profile to run the fans higher than default. Running the fans at 65% it's quieter than the 9800gtx in the case right next to it. And it runs cooler. Right now it's idling at 39C with an ambient of 27C. Load it goes to ~55C.

Yes, it runs hotter than the 4850 as it runs faster. And at 100% the fans are very loud. So don't run them at 100%.

This argument convinced me. I've seen this with my Radeon 9800 and its lack of Pixel Shader Version This Week.

I'll drop the second card and use the savings to replace the AMD chip set with an Intel. I'll price it up later, since I'm actually doing work today, not just hovering over this thread and NCIX's PC builder.

Lost original post. Shorter version:

I can't find a motherboard with socket 775, DDR2, and Crossfire. The Asus P5E sounds ideal, but isn't available on NCIX or locally.

Will a DDR3 board run DDR2 RAM well? (The P5E3 is available.)

Do I even need Crossfire (future-proofing) now that I have one card? If not, do current Nvidia and ATI cards use the same PCIe port connections, or do I need to search for something specific?

ddr2 and ddr3 are not compatible. and pretty much anything with multiple pcie x16 slots is crossfireable. I've got a ddr2 x38 board (DFI LP LT x38-tr2) which I love.

http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=27403&vpn=P5E%20WS%20PRO&manufacture=ASUS
http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?modelmenu=1&model=1899&l1=3&l2=11&l3=572&l4=0

I swear to Christ that was not showing up earlier this afternoon. >.<

Okay. Final(?) version. Nearly no part is what it once was. I dropped the 750w power supply down to a 650 because the removal of a second video card and use of the Intel chip cut power consumption a great deal. Even with 50% capacitor aging, it needs 559w. I have room to age and grow, though dual video cards will probably require replacing the power supply. In the meantime my electricity bills will be lower (also, I have only one outlet in my office, and I don't like to overtax it. I have to plug my speakers in using an extension cord to Jeremiah's playroom next door - which perversely has five outlets).

You've all been a huge help with this. Thank you.

Processor (CPU)
Intel Core 2 Quad Q9450 Quad Core Processor LGA775 2.66GHZ Yorkfield 1333FSB 12MB OEM No HSF - $344.99

CPU Cooling
Zalman CNPS7700-ALCU LGA775 S462 S478 S754 S939 S940 ALUM-COP 1000-2000RPM 20-32DBA CPU Heatsinkfan - $38.49

Motherboard
ASUS P5E WS Pro X38 LGA775 1600/1333FSB ATX 2PCI-E16 2PCI SATA2 RAID Sound GBLAN 1394 Motherboard - $295.26

DDR2 Memory (RAM)
Corsair XMS2 DHX TWIN2X4096-6400C4DHX 4GB DDR2 2X2GB PC2-6400 DDR2-800 CL 4-4-4-12 240PIN Memory Kit - 2x $144.99 = $289.98

Video Cards
Radeon HD 4870 OEM 750MHZ 512MB GDDR5 3.6GHZ PCI-E Dual DVI-I *Systems Only - 1YR NCIX Warranty* - $309.99

Computer Case
LIAN-LI PC-A10A Silver Aluminum ATX Mid Tower Case 7X5.25 5X3.5INT No PS W/ Front USB 1394 Audio - $259.99

Power Supply
Coolermaster Real Power 650W ATX 12V V2.2 SLI Active PFC 80PLUS Power Supply 120MM Fan - $109.25

Hard Drives
Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 3.5IN 500GB SATA2 8.5MS 7200RPM 32MB Cache NCQ Hard Drive OEM - $89.00
Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 1000GB 1TB SATA2 7200RPM 32MB Cache NCQ Hard Drive OEM - $194.71

DVD Writer
Samsung SH-S223F Black SATA DVD+RW 22X8X16 DVD-RW 22X6X16 16X/12X DL INT DVD Writer OEM - $34.07

Sound Card
Creative Sound Blaster X-FI Elite Pro PCI 24BIT/192KHZ Sound Card W/ Breakout Box & Remote - $282.72

Operating System
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Edition 64BIT DVD OEM - $117.60

Warranty
1 Year Parts & 1 Years Labour Limited Warranty On System Components - $0.00

Full assembly and testing of the system.    $0.00

YOUR TOTAL
All quoted prices are in CANADIAN DOLLARS    $2,366.05

Shipping is free.

Insurance is $35.49 (covers order) or $70.98 (covers order and express replacement (http://www.ncix.com/article.php?mode=expressrma) coverage for 30 days). i'm getting the latter. The Edmonton UPS is infamous for flaming incompetence. One of my coworkers had to have his NCIX computer replaced because they lost the delivery truck. Another came into work one morning with a lovely cellphone picture of a UPS truck with the back gate open on the highway in front of him, parcels trickling out behind it like breadcrumbs.

Surprised the processor doesn't come with a HSF, but whatever. Zalman will handle that. ^_^

This is a serious box. I don't know about the creative drivers, so I opted for the USB external sound card (partly because my mobo really isn't big enough for the coller on the gfx card). Anyway, yea, you'll like it. Enjoy!

Edit: The only change I would make is the PSU, from the Cooler Master to the Seasonic S12 - http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=30143&vpn=SS-650HT&manufacture=Seasonic%20Electronics

Edit 2: Oh hey, the s12 is on sale right now. Is aweeeeeeeeesome.

The OEM packaging usually doesn't.

Oh, hey. OEM. Yea. Durrrrr.

http://www.fragonsight.com/forum/video-cards/7953-ati-4850-fan-temperature-work-around.html

Catalyst Profile fix to adjust fan speed on the 4850, helped me drop 20C at idle.  You have to reload the profile everytime you reboot, but it's definitely helped.  I'll use it until there's a hotfix/patch to modify fanspeed control.

HIH

Glad it made sense. Imagine if it was Radeon 9800 x2 SLI. Even with a pair of new cards, performance is subject to whether the game was designed to use SLI. (edit - sorry this is WRONG - see posts below) You get no benefit with old games that can only use a single card (edit - don't trust me on this - see Trippy's post below). Even if the game is pure SLI awesome, you're looking at a percentage performance gain, not anything like value for money. And it has diminishing returns as the card technology ages.

I'm a little worried by this X-Fi and Vista thing - hadn't realised there was any problem beyond the early Vista/X-Fi compatibility issues. Does the guy saying the drivers suck just simply dislike Creative drivers, or is there a bigger problem beyond the Dolby Digital DTS thing? I'd probably still try and go X-Fi on Vista 64 anyway, because it's the best sound card and the most futureproof OS available.

Also I've no idea whether my Intel quad core theory will work or not (thinking that more cores could mean more survivability as a base till 2012). Just guessing :)

No that's not true. Game developers don't code their games specially to support SLI -- it's a driver level thing below the DirectX/OpenGL APIs that NVIDIA controls.

How come Vanguard, for example, could not use SLI at first?

Trippy probably should have said something like "Game developers shouldn't code their games specially to support some specific function of a card or MB and should let the drivers handle it below the API level."

Also, "Because Vanguard did it" is absolutely not good reasoning for any argument.

The Creative drivers would forget my speaker configuration randomly, and every reboot would be a guess whether or not mic boost would be on. Creative's tech support linked me to beta drivers, then when they didn't work, to an older set. Uninstalling the older set trashed the Vista install. I got the Xfi initially as there were no vista drivers for the very nice Razer Barracuda card I used in XP.

Now the Xfi card sits on the dvd shelf, along with the other obsolete hardware. I'll likely try it again at some point, but have no reason to right now.

Haha true.

Sorry for spreading misinformation - I've edited my post to point out I was wrong about SLI.

I don't know what was up with Vanguard but generally speaking games that are more CPU-bound than GPU-bound tend to not see much if any advantage from using SLI. In those situations you can setup SLI to force AA and AF even for games that don't normally support it or at as high a level so you can get better quality visuals even if you don't necessarily get better frame rates.

That model doesn't seem to be available through their PC builder service - they only offer 350 and 400w Seasonic models.

What about the Earthwatts 650W (http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=30037&vpn=EA650&manufacture=ANTEC)? It's Antec branded, but manufactured by Seasonic.

Are Corsair's available through the PC Builder? It's what I used ni my last PC with more wattttttttttttts. But I'd only get their HX line (which ironically I'm also pretty sure is built by Seasonic) - http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=19831&vpn=CMPSU-620HX&manufacture=CORSAIR - I've never used the Earthwatts, but I imagine it's powered by green? So some corners have been cut?

They only have two HX models, one less than I need (520), and the other considerably more (1000).

The Earthwatts is supposed to be more "green" through efficiency. It's one of the lines Seasonic is bragging about on the 80+ efficiency section  (http://www.seasonic.com/new/twevent200502.htm) their website.

In my limited experience, "green" devices are usually underpowered or have a shorter lifespan (irony!). The reviews I looked through said nothing about lack of power, but the 650 model hasn't been around long enough (Feb 08) to know about breakdown rate.

Hm. Seems like Earthwatts beyond the first batch aren't made by Seasonic, but by a company called Delta.

I don't know who Delta is. I'm also not entirely liking the prospect that you're limited to things they're willing to put in machines. Seems like a good way to clear our shit that won't sell. Anyway, go with whatever. The options are crap. Swapping out a power supply is a total cakewalk anyway. Might be worth going with the cheapest one and just going to buy a real one and keep the other one as backup.

Fair enough. At $90 the Earthwatts is one of the cheaper ones in that power range, so I'll give it a shot. If nothing else it will satisfy my curiosity.

Never ever ever skimp on the PSU.  Like Schild said, get the cheapest one you can and then buy a real one from Newegg, you will have to rerun your cables but the PSU is pretty easy to identify, remove and replace.  If you get really worried just write down which cables were connected where and what they looked like as you remove the crap PSU from your new rig.  Then replace like for like.

I just restarted researching for a new rig build and my power supply choices came down to a couple in Newegg's ~$150 price point.  A Zalman and a Seasonic I'm 95% sure.  I've used both of those companies in the past for PSU with no issues.  Sadly I can't give specifics because I'm not working today and my research is at the office.

I used to use whatever generic PSU was available. Then Lian-Li PC-60 brushed aluminium cases took off. I decided if I was using that case, it deserved more than a generic PSU, so I got an Antec (best reputation at the time).

Until then my PC use included rare lockups and very rare blue screens in games. I had put it down to Windows being Windows. But after adding that PSU, neither of those things happened with that PC again. Maybe it was my imagination, but it seemed to make the machine more reliable. So I still use a good brand name PSU.

The key difference between a good and a bad PSU is the degree to wich voltage fluctuations increase over time. A well built one will only fluctuate .3 or so volts over the course of its life span, and generally keep a steady even flow of power going to your rig. A cheap one will slowly degrade, and you'll start to see errors when the voltage goes above or below the acceptable voltage on that particular rail. Most common is the 12 volt rail going up over time to 13 or so, and then blam, BSD.

Last I checked, Newegg wouldn't ship to Canada. But good PSUs I can aquire locally.

Minor pet peeve. NCIX.com accepts PayPal. Good for me, since I have no credit cards (just a Visa-backed debit attached to a checking account I rarely use). However, duruing check out I discovered that they won't accept instant transfers. Only "echecks" that take over a week to clear. I placed my order last Friday, but they won't even start processing it until the payment clears on August 5.

Why offer PayPal if you won't accept instant transfers? I could have mailed a freaking check in less time.

Here are the 3 PSU's I'm considering for my build in progress..

Enermax (http://arstechnica.pgpartner.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=33582625/search=ein650awt/st=query)
86A on the 12V, 650W total, fan is a 135.

Zalman (http://arstechnica.pgpartner.com/search_getprod.php/masterid=71690474/search=zm750-hp/st=query)
80A on the 12V, 750W total, fan is a 2 bearing 120.  Probably the least quiet of the 3, but very solid.  I've used my current Zalman PSU for years with no lockups or issues.

Seasonic (http://arstechnica.pgpartner.com/search_getoffers.php?keyword=Seasonic%20M12600W&search=m12-ss-600)
72A on the 12V, 600W total, two fans (120 & 60) but I bet the quietest of the bunch.  Seasonic's stuff is fucking amazing.  You get the least power with your money but if you don't intend on setting up a nutso raid or SLI/crossfire setup I can't imagine you'll have issues.  I put one of their PSU's in my dad's rig I built 1.5 years ago, fucking money and so quiet that even he couldn't complain.

You can tell though that the Enermax is the only mainstream product, I don't think I'll get it unless there is a deal or something to take advantage of since I dont have history with them.  But they seemed to be well regarded when I took a look around.

The Seasonics may be the lowest powered, but their the most stable power supplies I've ever used and their output rating is _exact_. It's quality shit.

http://www.newegg.ca/ (http://www.newegg.ca/) is coming soon, might want to hold off a bit.

Finally.

Thank fucking Christ.

FUCK.  My motherboard just got blown like my dick on a Christmas night out.

Suggestions for a new chap ?  Is the one suggested for Mr Red-name still the best for the buck ?

What CPU and socket type do you have?

Is this a scottish tradition? if not, can you suggest strategies for this to happen to others? what is the normal tip?

Time to upgrade, mate, so I'll be getting a new chip and video card anyway.  Currently sitting on an Athlon XP 2500+


As for your question, Engels, the normal tip is at the end of the shaft, roughly 11 inches down.

Athschlong XP 2500+ uses a 939 socket and I think most of those were AGP boards. May have to get a new vid card too? Oh, and new ram, since I think you're gonna want DDR2 or DDR3 with the current boards/cpus.

Edit: oops, I think it actually uses Socket A. same deal tho

Yes.

So....budget? Overclocking or not? Raid or not? Interest in SLI/Crossfire? Hard drive number?

Got two Raptors (36) in a Raid for TEH SPEEDZ.  Don't give a shit about overclocking or SLI.  Probably snag one of those thar newfangled 4870 cards.

I'd look at x38 or x48 chipset motherboards, either Intel, Asus or Gigabyte. I'm not sure if going DDR3 is starting to be worth it. I don't think anything has changed, and a tightly timed DDR2 set at 800mhz probably does as well as DDR3. Trippy will know for sure.

Are you buying this stuff online? And like Engels asked, what's the budget?

Not a budget as such.  I'm rich, but not stupid.

Don't care where I buy it, but online would be best.  Bear in mind that I'm UK based though.  All I'm really looking for is what spec is 'the shit' at the moment and I'll fetch it.

 :-)

The ASUS P5E WS Professional is a little bit more expensive than the regular ASUS P5E which may work just as well for you. Storm's choices were limited by what was available at that particular site. Both boards use the X38 chipset with DDR2 memory which means you get the latest motherboard features from Intel without having to pay ridiculous prices for DDR3 memory which doesn't currently give you any performance benefit (if you really wanted DDR3 you'll probably want an X48 board).

What are some online stores you can buy from over there?

I can get the WS Pro from Ebuyer and the card, memory and cooler from Overclockers.

That'll do it, I guess.

Stuff ordered and on the way.  I think by the weekend I'll be reinstalling some of my Heavy Hitting games.

 :awesome_for_real:

Fabulous. NCIX took so long to process my payment that the motherboard is no longer in stock. They expect me to choose another.

No. I just sent you $2500 for a part your site still says you can get with a week to restock. I'll be patient while you get me what I want, or I'm going to take my business elsewhere. I'll regret losing the assembly (because i r suq at the electronics), but I know I can order the individual parts locally.

And get a better PSU while I'm doing it.

This just in: the stock heatsink/fan on the 45nm intel processors eats hot flaming dicks (many of them.)

"What's that," you say, "a stock heatsink that sucks? Unpossible!" I've used plenty of stock heatsinks and while they're far from the best solution out there, they are usually adequate. The 45nm HSF is not only a poor cooling solution, it is difficult to install correctly, and probably dangerous to your board. In the 4 corners of the HSF it's got these plastic anchors that hold it into the mounting holes on the motherboard. You push down on a little plunger ontop of the anchor that sends a black plastic spike down between a pair of white plastic anchors that then fill up your mounting hole and hold the HSF in place (in theory.)

Get.
Aftermarket.
HSF.

I put a new system into a case that is 10 years old last night, and by far the hardest part was fucking about with that stupid ass stock HSF.

Hm? I've had no problems. Neither has my friend afaik.

They work, but the stock hsf does kinda blow. Easier if you realize push down, then turn.

This one, right?

(http://www.dvhardware.net/news/intel_wolfdale_hsf.jpg)

If so, you've got more patience than I do.

Push down, then turn - that might help.

Nah, I got angry with the first dual core I got, the second time, not as many issues. The third time was cake.

The turn action is actually for the removal of the HS, not the insertion. It should 'snap in'. Make sure you do the push pins in a circle, rather than one across from one another.

Bah I find NCIX comical just because their sister "store" (http://directcanada.com) is generally cheaper(outside of the ncix sales/dedicated rebates).

The fourth heatsink/fan anchor on my Core 2 Duo has never gone in. And I don't care. Never been a problem, temperatures are lower than other people's (probably thanks to a good case).

The machine arrived today, and it is beautiful. The outside is nice, but the inside is better. Tons of space, and the wiring is in most cases kept well out of the way.

I did say "in most cases."

Here's what I saw when I removed the packing foam around the CPU:

(http://www.animeofthestate.org/temp/cpufan-small.JPG)

The power cables for the top case fan are wedged between its internal housing and the CPU heat sink blades. I do mean wedged - a gentle tug couldn't move them. The cables are looped up and twist-tied, so there's probably enough slack to go around. I'm puzzled by their decision to do this - maybe they considered the blades hitting the case a more serious concern?

Should I move it aside myself?

Seriously, beautiful machine. I'll probably put up more pics later. Meantime I don't want to turn it on until I'm sure it won't cause an electrical fire...

er, if the heatsink blades are slowly going to cut into the fan cable housing, ya, move it. It will definately short out your system, and possibly cause serious damage.

From the look of it, can you run that wire across the top of the fan down the plug? I wonder why they didn't do that.

I would move it if it wasn't too much trouble to get that fan out of there and put back in with the wire going out the other side. If nothing else it's currently blocking a teeny bit of airflow by having it wrapped around that way.

I'd just flip the thing 180 so that the wire is on the other side and closer to the power.  That'd do it.

*facepalm*

Tell me I'm overreacting, that there's enough of a gap for this to work, that the experienced professionals who assembled my computer at NCIX are not, in fact, inbred mongoloids I increasingly suspect that they are.

Note: nothing but empty space on the far side of that. If I had an appropriately shaped backplate, I could easily slide it over.

Also: any option for those with more fans than fan plugs on the motherboard?

(http://www.animeofthestate.org/temp/fanissue.jpg)

Is there a problem? I'm assuming you are complaining about the power supply not being rotated another 90 degrees. Do you have holes in your side panel near there? Rotating the power supply isn't necessarily going to make things better. Hint you do not want your power supply's fan sucking hot air from the compartment above it (yes that means power supplies in standard ATX cases are rotated the wrong direction). So basically it can either be pointing downwards or rotated like you have now and the gap looks about the same either way though pointing it downwards probably would suck in slightly cooler air. Flipping it a full 180 degrees might be slightly better than they way it is now but that depends on what the airflow and temps are like in that lower compartment.

That cutout is also blocking some of the airflow going out. If you have a Dremel or something you might want to cut it open more.

To power additional fans you need some sort of adapter like this one:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812189119

I doubt that's much of an issue - it's an aluminium Lian Li case, full of case fans. Not a heap left for the PSU exhaust to do. My Lian Li has the same exhaust cutout and has held a couple of PC builds, both of which have run very cool.


You're overreacting, there's enough of a gap for this to work. When the PC is running, get the temperatures of the CPU and video card from whatever software shows them, and do a google search for forums where nerds post temperatures of those components. Hopefully you'll be pleasantly surprised that yours are running really cool thanks to the good case.

It's not a question of CPU and GPU temps. Heat buildup in the power supply lowers its efficiency and if you have a temperature controlled PS fan means more noise (higher fan RPM).

Anedotally, this machine is running cooler than my previous one (judged solely by checking the exhaust temps with my hand). The top of the motherboard is unbelieveably well-vented - the CPU fan is huge, and it's flanked by top and rear 120mm case fans. The video card is a tiny sun, but based on what I was told upthread I expected that. I'll double-check the internal temps when I get home.

I was concerned that the PSU fan needed to face inward to get adequate air flow over long periods (it's the fartherst from the case fans), but it sounds like this may not be the case.

My next project will be checking on the HD mountings. The 500GB gets a nasty vibration when it's in use for a long time. If its just tightening screws, no problem. If the screws are tight, I think I should ship it back "just in case." The 1TB monsterdrive is nearly silent, the smaller (which I'm using for the OS and utilities/apps) has fits of loud buzzing. That can't be good.

Thanks for the continued advice, guys. ^_^

hwmonitor (http://www.cpuid.com/hwmonitor.php), hopefully it will read a lot from your sensors/chipset.


Just a tip, usually loosing screws on fans etc will reduce noise, if the hard drive is screwed down tight loosen it a bit as it could be a case metal vibration.

Once upon a time the PSU draw was a substantial portion of your case's air exchange (if not all of it), and what you're talking about would have mattered.  But mostly you're either pulling air from inside the case and what matters is the system ambient, or you're not.  That PSU will be fine, but if you're really worried about it you might see if it has the screw taps to be rotated 180 degrees (I suspect it doesn't or they would have mounted it that way.  You might note that the cutout on the otherside of the case is 180 degrees reversed, so even if it was over there you'd still have the same situation.

If you're really worried about it (or if the exhaust coming out of the PSU is really hot), cut a vent and mount a fan and screen in the side of the case over its intake.  But I wouldn't expect it to be an issue.

--Dave

Holy fucking shit.

Just got my ~120GB of MP3s set up on the new machine today.

The improvement of sound quality from the X-Fi card was immediate and obvious. I feel like I'm back at my college radio station, listening to the monitor speakers.

That makes me all warm inside my musical ear.

I'm pretty much set on my own personal rig, will post a parts list by Monday for a final "see anything you dont like?" check.  But my friend just tasked me today with a quick build for his wife.  She has a telecommuting job + wants to be able to play EQ2 or whatever MMO she graduates to after she realizes what crap EQ2 is..

Here's what I pulled up in 30 min on the egg, your thoughts please?  Budget is $650 max, playing EQ2 well + being able to upgrade to or just run whatever she picks up next is the goal. 

mobo (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130182)
psu (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703005)
cpu (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103773)
ram (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231122)

This clocks in at $350, monitor, hd's, i/o are being taken from existing machines.  This leaves us with the money to pick up a GTX260 or whatever is one step under that, the 9600??  I decided on NV because they are more user friendly and she wont be watching the heat or hacking the fan settings.  The ram was a combo deal with the cpu, and I've heard GSKILL is ok, I only have ever used Corsair forfuckingever.  The PSU doesn't seem like a great call, but I'm short on time atm.  I just got a Corsair PSU for $65 myself, to save some money short term (buying a $135 modular Seasonic sometime down the road to replace) figure I can get another one of those though the deal is over now so they are 70-75.

TIA

why AMD? You're seriously curtailing your upgrade ability with that. go for a low end LGA775 cpu that she can switch out when she has money.

Like this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115052

and

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128337

I always thought that AMD was better at the really low end bang/buck wise?  Plus they have AMD systems currently, plus I've never used AMD so it would be more interesting to build...    Easier for me to just go with low end Intel, though since I know the brands/parts much  better from the research I've been doing for my own shit.

my new rig:
PSU - Corsair vx550w (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139004)
CPU - Q6600 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115018)
Mobo - MSI Neo2-FR (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130184&Tpk=neo2-fr)
Ram - Corsair 2x2GB 1066 DDR2 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145197)
case - Lian-Li A70-B (http://www.sundialmicro.com/lianli_full-tower-pca70b_1927_1233.html)

So, anyone have any problems with any of that?  The case and psu are already at my house.  The rest is going to be ordered this weekend.  The annoying thing is I can't find a video card option I like.  I want a 4870 (I dont mind ATI cards at all) but the stock cooler sucks dick and nobody has made a good improvement yet.  That means I have to go after-market cooling and void the warranty most likely doing so.  Which sucks.

For those keeping score at home, that is ~$800 with $80 in MIR's pre-gpu of course.  I spent another $430 on my monitor (24" TN panel).

I have discovered that if you're a gamer using Vista-64, you probably don't want an ATI card (http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=vista+64+atikmdag+driver+crash&btnG=Search&meta=). Apparently the Catalyst drivers have been buggy under the OS since 2006, but they still haven't fixed it.

WH:DoW suffers a driver crash every ~15 minutes, and I don't dare turn on antialiasing indoors in LotRO.

Rattran doesn't seem to have problems with his ATI in vista 64. He can probably provide more insight.

I'm running a 4870 in Vista64. No issues in any games right now. The ATI drivers were crap in both xp and vista for ages, but seem solid now.

And the stock cooling is fine on the 4870s, you just need to set the fan default higher. Currently my GPU is 44C, it peaked at 58C under heavy load earlier.

As for that motherboard the following spec gives me pause. "2 x PCI Express 2.0 x16 slots - When using two PCIE x16 slots, the PCIE x16 lanes will auto arrange from x16/x0 to x8/x8" Seems to defeat part of the purpose of having multiple x16 slots. And I haven't been very impressed with the MSI boards I've had to work with in the last few years. Might want to spend a bit more and got for an x38/x48 board. I know DFI has a couple ddr2 ones, I'm sure others do as well.

Well, I do have the latest drivers, and I'm suffering crash after crash.

Anecdote: downloaded Expertool  (http://en.expreview.com/2008/08/16/tools-update-experttool-v40-enable-fan-control-on-hd-48504870/)to "overclock" the 4870's fan. By default it was running at ~22% speed, with a temp of 79C (just operating Vista shortly after boot). Setting the fan at 50%, quickly temp dropped to 43C, though it doubled (or more) the noise of the computer.

WTH. Were ATI more concerned about noise than cooling? If I can drop temperature that dramatically with just 50% capacity, why aren't the factory setting higher?

If I'm lucky, the crash problems will go away now that the board's temp has dropped by 36 degrees.

79C doing nothing. Jesus Christ.

That's not uncommon with stock cooling and modern GPUs. GPUs are rated for far higher temps than CPUs.

Nice to hear about that X-Fi card Storm. I'm shopping as we speak for a new one because my old POS Audigy 2 ZS is taking a dive. I think I'm gonna go with that X-FI Titanium Pro with the PCI-E connection. Basically the same as yours without the super fancy remote and box.

My video card just took a crap this evening. What are people recommending these days? I'll need something that can handle 1920x1200 with stuff like DoW2 when it comes out, so, pretty beefy.

Just played DoW for an hour with no problems at all - not even hitches. It was definitely the heat, which makes the low default fan speed look twice as foolish.

I picked up the Fatality Platinum (the pcie one) the drivers installed fine, updated and work. Unlike the Fatality Pro which was cause of much woe.

DFI wasn't even on my consideration list tbh, I was looking at Gigabyte, MSI and to a lesser extent Asus, who seems to have good boards for what I want in the PQ5 series but I really really hated their company back in the day due to lack of support and general dickheadedness, haven't bought them in a long long time.  See what your saying though, honestly I was paying the $$ to get the Neo2 instead of the Neo3 just because of tiny things that aren't worth the money but I didn't mind spending it.

No fucking way in hell I'm getting a stock cooled 4870, I hate the idea of fan hacking, noisy fan and the temps I'm hearing don't sound bad.  That cooler just looks like crap.  I wanted a 4870 one of these (http://www.hisdigital.com/html/iceq_promo.htm) but I've been reading how HIS are dicks and scamming people out of rebates/rma's on another board so I'm back to square one.  Annoying.  Sapphire makes some non stock cooling but it isn't rear exhaust, which is just amateur hour.

Mine's not that loud, and the 'fan hacking' is just setting a profile in the ccc, and changing a .cfg file. But, there should be quieter better ones in 4-6 months, just in time for the 5870s to hit the market.

How is buying from NCIX?

Looking to upgrade mobo, cpu and ram. Not going to be doing any overclocking. Suggestions?

The ATI HD4850 is the same way.  I just bought a DuoOrb for the damned thing rather than cranking up the fan speed and dealing with the subsequent jet turbine-like noise.  On the plus side, those damned things WORK.  At load my card rarely goes over 40^o celsius.  In fact, my CPU is consistently running hotter than my GPU now.   :awesome_for_real:

I built my last two computers with parts from them and had no problems.  I got lucky and didn't have to return anything or deal with them past ordering the components though.  They have some option for expedited RMA type service if you pay a certain percentage more.  I thought they were pretty good.  Their website is solid with little forums for each item and such, the customer reviews and comments are better on newegg because so many more people use them so I just decide what I want to buy from them and buy from ncix since newegg doesn't do Canada.

Yet!

Buying parts would probably be fine. I wouldn't let them assemble it again, though.

I might as well stick with Canada Computers than. For the most part they're usually way cheaper. The Q6600 is $223 with NCIX and $209 with CanadaComputers.

What OS are you using Rat? V-64? I remember you using Vista when we played Hellgate but I can't remember if you ran 32 or 64.

I'm really liking my ECS 8800 GT.  Seems like they may be getting hard to find, and it's "old" now, so maybe not worth it.  [Review (http://www.guru3d.com/article/ecs-geforce-8800-gt-dual-turbo-512mb/)]

Vista x64. The only problem I've had with it were the previous Creative drivers. Though I did get a bsod last night from creative alchemy doing something naughty.


Ask Schild about his issues with the 8800GT. Either he's got the worst luck in video cards EVAR, uses his computing machine as an easybake oven, or there's a problem across the whole current nvidia line. I'm not sure which, but give even odds to all three choices.

I'm giving a hard look at the BFG GTX260 XXX they just reviewed over at [h] (http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTU1MSwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==), limetime warranty not voided by using after market cooler?  Within my price range (~$300) and good performance.

I have loved my ATI cards, and I want to go with them because I hate NV's current hide the price bullshit and the whole SLI chipset mobo deal but there just isn't an ATI currently that does what I want and I'm tired of waiting.

Oh man, oh man. To defend myself.

Short of my old computer which ran upwards of 7 years, I have never once had a problem with a graphics card. I have now had problems with an 8600GT and an 8800GT respectively.

You're mean  :? :? :cry:

Looking to upgrade mobo, cpu and ram. Not going to be doing any overclocking. Suggestions?

Damn it Hoax, now I have to think of ATI vs NV again!

ATI's choices were:
VisionTek (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814129113)
HIS with IceQ (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161246)

and add either a BattleAxe (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835233013) or Artic Cooling w/fans (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835186016) but do those aftermarkets keep the air flow out of the case?

Now I have to think about:
XFX (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150310) or
EVGA (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130373) or
BFG (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143148)

I could run the add on coolers too, but if the fan speed is adjusted and the stock fan vents out of the case, is it really a need to have an aftermarket cooler?

I'm stoked I waited to buy my video cards as now I have a lot of choices.

Get the Visiontek 4870. Wait a year or two before trusting NVidia yet. All the good will they've gotten in the last many years got flushed down the toilet with the current problems.

This is what I have. As you can see from my posts above, you will need more fan capacity. The on-board fan is sufficient when you override ATI's software, but it's surprisingly noisy. Otherwise, it's a pretty good card. LotRO has some particular problems, but that's because it generates such a high framerate inside small areas that the client thinks something is wrong. A simple .ini fix (which I haven't tried yet, playing other games) should be able to get it going.

What's your budget? (Why does nobody ever specify that...)

What are your current system specs?  Also budget..


Here's my pro v con list:

NV has been spoiled for too long by being top dog, they aren't any more reliable, if anything they are less reliable hardware wise.  I would have gone with the 4870 for sure if I could have gotten good rear exhaust cooling that isn't leaf blower noisy and doesn't void my warranty.

I'm 95% for sure pulling the trigger on the XFX GTX260 XXX I linked earlier tomorrow, the warranty is fucking amazing, all you have to do is register the card within 30 days of purchase date (transfers with one sale -double lifetime-, if you keep the stock cooler and dont fuck up a after market install they RMA np) and the fan has been reported as being much quieter stock.  My only concern is I've read a few reports of GTX's having issues with HDTV or somesuch but it doesn't seem widespread.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150310  -- $300 w/ a $30 MIR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814129113 -- The Visiontek (lifetime warranty is why you go w/ Visiontek btw) is $270 w/out the MIR hassle.

But the performance scores are very closs, so the heat/noise issue sealed it for the GTX and I like ATI more then NV.  Always have.  I didn't have the driver issues with ATI and the only card that ever shitted out on me was the only Geforce card I ever bought.

I'm still struggling hard with mobo choice, also not sure if I want to pay for Vista (sigh) also wtf there are hella versions.

My mobo contenders currently are the Asus PQ5-E and the MSI Neo2-FR.  Gigabyte seems to neglect the fuck out of NB cooling compared to other makers, also their boards are fucking fugly.  I dont really like Asus as a company from way back, DFI sounds like their BIOS are really complex to work with and I've yet to hear anyone irl say anything nice about Biostar or DFI.

$500

Update on the problems with my Visiontek HD 4870. For those of you looking to build a Vista-64 system, I strongly urge you to not to waste your money on an ATI card. The hardware itself seems decent. The Catalyst drivers are useless shit under 64-bit.

Those problems I had upthread with Dawn of War? They returned on the third mission of the campaign. A steady stream of Catalyst driver crashes, despite having 1) the most recent drivers, 2) plenty of power, 3) card temperature below 50C. When I was lucky enough to have the drivers recover after crashing, they would just crash again seconds later. I saw up to three in ten seconds of play.

A bleeding-edge video card should not struggle to run a three year-old game. The HD 4870 does.

More self-righteous self-quoting:

except that the 8800s have progressively degrading heat issues unless you get after market cooling. ask schild about his experience. I'm keeping mine alive through manually tweaking my gpu fan and an aftermarket pci-slot cooler.

You may have something else wrong, as I have the same card and have had no issues with vista x64. Granted, I haven't run DoW (not a fan of RTS) but I've run everything from Diablo2 to Crysis, NWN2, AoC, TQ, RtCW, QW:ET, and other acronyms.

Stupid question, but are both power connectors plugged in and supplying at least 75w? ie. not on a shared 12v line on a small/modular psu? Otherwise I can only suggest trying to upgrade mobo drivers.
<edit> Seems older Netgear wireless drivers shit all over Catalyst drivers too, shouldn't be an issue for you, but it may help someone else's issue.

I've had a factory OC'd 8800 GTS 320Mb with stock cooler for about 18 months and it's perfectly happy so far. The Wikipedia version of the problem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geforce_8_series#Caveat) currently says:

"Some chips of these series (concretely those from G84 and G86) may suffer of an overheating problem. According to NVIDIA [35], this should only affect a few chips (and a software upgrade should solve the problem), whereas others [36] assert that all of the chips in these series are affected. CEO Jen-Hsun Huang and CFO Marvin Burkett have been lawsuit[37] on 09.Sept.2008 alleging that their knowledge on the flaw and their intend to hide it made NVIDIA lose a 31% on the stock markets[38]."

G84 and G86 are the 8300, 8400, 8500 and 8600 cards, not the 8800s.

There are reports that the 8800 GT had the defect as well, and all I can do is report how my particular card is behaving. I'm not 'doing it wrong'. Simpy type 8800gt overheating into Google and browse just about any forum you want. One can get an aftermarket cooler and/or apply your own thermal paste, which helps the problem, but out of the box, the cards are wack.

Plus the 8800gts 320 and the 8800gt have little in common. One is a G80, the other a G92. Apples and Eggplants.

So, my Dell Inspiron 1520, and more accurately the Nvidia Geforce Go 8600m GT card, decided to melt down last night 2 months after my warranty expired  :awesome_for_real:.

I spent a couple of hours putting together a new rig but it's been a few years since I built my last computer and wanted to double check my selections with people in the know. Keep in mind I'm a poor college student so I tried to build a decent machine on a budget.

Monitor: Acer X193W+BD Black 19" 5ms Widescreen LCD Monitor (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16824009127)

Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-MA78GM-S2H AM2+/AM2 AMD 780G HDMI Micro ATX AMD Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16813128090)

RAM: CORSAIR 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model TWIN2X4096-6400C5 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820145184)

HDD: Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD6400AAKS 640GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16822136218)

GPU: ASUS EAH4850/HTDI/512M Radeon HD 4850 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16814121253)

Case: COOLER MASTER RC-690-KKN1-GP Black SECC/ ABS ATX Mid Tower Computer Case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16811119137)

PSU: Antec earthwatts EA500 500W ATX12V v2.0 SLI Certified CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16817371007)

CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 6000+ Windsor 3.0GHz Socket AM2 125W Dual-Core Processor Model ADX6000CZBOX  (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16819103773)

Subtotal:     $776.93

Any glaring problems with this? I made a conscious decision to choose an ATI card as I still have a bad taste in my mouth from the gigantic steaming dump Nvidia took in it. Twice. Any help would be much appreciated.

That's one super-toasty CPU (it's 2x the Thermal Power Design of the other AMD dual-core CPUs :ye_gods:). You'll probably want a very good CPU cooling setup to keep that thing under control. Or you can just drop down to the 5600+.

AMD Dual-Core CPU comparison chart (http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_9485_13041^13076,00.html)

Edit: fixed URL (damn bbcode)

Ya, I'll definitely drop down to something like this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103234) then, don't have the spare cash for too much extra cooling at the moment, luckily it's starting to cool down here in Arizona so that should help as well.

The wife's computer is beginning to die and is made up with enough legacy crap that I'm not going to be cannibalizing a lot from it.

Full version - http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=8005585

Short form: 
Q6600 w/ ASUS P5Q Pro
4 Gigs of G.Skill  DDR2 1066 RAM
Corsair 520 PSU
Radeon HD4850
ANTEC P182 Case

Sound card is right now a M-Audio 2496, but depending on what she actually needs for voice over  work, it's subject to change.

I've had lots of problems with the 8800 series as well -- adaptor problems and rapid degredation in the first year with more than one card, an endless source of worry and irritation. ATI and 32-bit would be prudent for the safest low-stress approach these days IMO.

I'd suggest if she's going to use it for games, kick up to a 4870. If not, drop down to a 4650.
Otherwise, looks decent. Does she have a use for quad-core, or would a faster dual work? And I prefer Scythe fans for quiet and volume of air. The p182 is nice, but big. I've switched to Coolermaster cases myself, seem to be made a bit better than the last few Antecs, and are tailored a bit better for what they need to do. ie, I have an HAF for the gaming machine, and a Cosmos for the server so it's silent.

Good point about the cores - looks like the E4400 is about 10 bucks cheaper than the Q6600 for a nice kick in performance, so that's definitely the way to go.

I was balking at the $250 pricetag on the Coolermaster Cosmos (I need this case to be as quiet as possible), but looks like they're on sale to $149 for a bit, so that helps.   Scythe's at 19.81db look like a big win.

Sadly, she does just enough gaming that if I try to go too budget on the card she's going to give me the evil eye.    Looking over the performance gains, I'm just not sure if going from a 4850 to a 4870 is worth the added $70 bucks.

I think it is, if she's running at high res. 1920x1200 I'd say definitely, maybe at 1650

The P182 is a good choice when runninga 4870 card, since these run hot. I also like the Coolmaster Cosmos S (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119150). I also love the Antec 900 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129021). For something smaller but well built I'd look at this Lian Li  (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112155) case.

I have a weird PC question - I'll ask it here rather than start a new thread.

I hit the power button to switch the PC on. The PC, it does noooothing. I wait. Sometimes a few seconds, sometimes 20 minutes, sometimes an hour, once apparently half a day.

Then the PC, when it feels like responding, finally responds to that push of the power button and springs to life. It continues to work flawlessly until I switch it off. Everything else about the PC is fine.

Reckon it's my power switch? My power supply? Motherboard, maybe. I want to do as little tinkering as possible, so I am asking for opinions instead :)

Did you check the wire/connector connecting the power switch to the motherboard?