Buy Me a PC - now seeking new advice!

[Lantyssa]

I use vista64 with 8gigs of memory and a minimal swap file. It's very, very nice. The only problems I've had have been with addon sound cards. One didn't have drivers before I sent it away, and the Xfi has creative drivers, which blow goats.

I'm using onboard sound, Realtek HD audio is acceptable.

Awesome!  You just single-handedly killed any chance of Stormie getting Vista 64.

[schild]

Or, you know, Storm could just see if his sound cards have vista 64 drivers.

[Stormwaltz]

Another experiment. Schild piqued my curiosity. I changed the 300GB Velociraptor back to the original 500GB Seagate and applied the money to 8GB RAM and Vista Home 64. I also dropped the extra media drives, keeping only the DVD-RW. The price dropped to $120 less than my first draft.

The RAM is puzzling. Corsair has two 2GB stick models at the same price point, one of which has lower latency numbers. I checked the spec sheets for them, and they were identical save that one was tested at 4-4-4-12 and the other at 5-5-5-18. It makes me suspect there's a difference so subtle that it requires more tech knowledge than I have to note.

Where can I find more information about these Creative driver issues?

EDIT: LOL

"According to Creative's own FAQ, sound cards from the X-Fi and Audigy families are incapable of decoding Dolby Digital or DTS, due to the fact that "these functions are not supported at driver level in Windows Vista." This isn't true.  When two of the driver files from a standard X-Fi card are replaced with two driver files drawn from a Dell-specific driver available at the company's support web site, DTS and DD decoding immediately reappear as options and function correctly. Creative might be able to get away with saying that DTS and DD decoding aren't enabled at the driver level for X-Fi and Audigy cards, but the functionality is clearly baked into the driver and is thus supported. Creative may never come straight out and say "It's Microsoft's fault that your cards doesn't work," but the Vista support pages are loaded with descriptions of how Vista's audio system broke Creative products."

Processor (CPU)
AMD Phenom X4 9850 Black Edition Quad Core Processor Socket AM2 2.5GHZ 4MB Cache 125W Retail Box - $264.48
   
Motherboard
ASUS M3A32-MVP Deluxe AMD 790FX AM2+ 4PCI-E16 CrossFireX 2PCI SATA2 RAID Sound GBLAN Motherboard - $214.99

DDR2 Memory (RAM)
Corsair XMS2 DHX TWIN2X4096-6400C4DHX 4GB DDR2 2X2GB PC2-6400 DDR2-800 CL 4-4-4-12 240PIN Memory Kit 2x $144.99 = $289.98
   -or-
Corsair XMS2 DHX TWIN2X4096-6400C5DHX 4GB DDR2 2X2GB PC2-6400 DDR2-800 CL 5-5-5-18 240PIN Memory Kit 2x $144.99 = $289.98

Video Cards
Radeon HD 4870 OEM 750MHZ 512MB GDDR5 3.6GHZ PCI-E Dual DVI-I - 2x $309.99 = $619.98

YOUR TOTAL
All quoted prices are in CANADIAN DOLLARS    $2,517.05 (original price: $2,637.96)

[schild]

I still don't understand why that RAM costs so damn much. Even 8 GB should only cost $200 or so. >_>

Kill one of the graphics cards. Still a terrible decision. I would seriously recommend killing one, getting an Intel Q9450 and a Intel designed mobo. It will still come in under the current board and you REALLY DON'T NEED TWO 4870s unless you're playing something so heavy that it requires it. Like Crysis 3. I'm sorry, but I just can't get behind that kind of computer building.

[Stormwaltz]

you REALLY DON'T NEED TWO 4870s unless you're playing something so heavy that it requires it. Like Crysis 3. I'm sorry, but I just can't get behind that kind of computer building.

Does it make more sense if I say that I expect to still be using this same machine to play games released in 2012?

I've had my current computer for over four years. The one before that I had for nearly five. Except to replace a failing power source and add hard drives, I never upgraded either. Computer purchasing is something I have to do all at once - and I expect that will only get worse with a second child on the way.

[Engels]

you REALLY DON'T NEED TWO 4870s unless you're playing something so heavy that it requires it. Like Crysis 3. I'm sorry, but I just can't get behind that kind of computer building.

Does it make more sense if I say that I expect to still be using this same machine to play games released in 2012?

But Moore's law just don't work that way, hoss. If I'd have gotten two 7950gx2 in SLI two years ago, they still wouldn't be as good as a single 8800gtx now, not to mention the 9000 series or the new 000 series.

[Trippy]

Also on paper Crossfire can handle "mixed" GPUs while NVIDIA is only just barely starting to support that sort of thing (their "Hybrid SLI" thingy). Dunno how well it actually works, though, since I haven't been paying attention to ATI for quite some time. So you might be better off just getting the one card now and seeing what's available in a year or two.

Edit: and you can still use your first card (in theory) along side any new one

[schild]

I've had my current computer for over four years. The one before that I had for nearly five. Except to replace a failing power source and add hard drives, I never upgraded either. Computer purchasing is something I have to do all at once - and I expect that will only get worse with a second child on the way.

Same here. If money is an issue, set aside $200 now and use $400 to buy a single 4870 and buy whatever the third gen after that is 4 years from now and you won't have spent any more and $200 will destroy your 4870.

[rattran]

I agree with Trippy and Schild. Single 4870, you can always throw in another later.

And I don't trust the Phenom yet. Too many issues early on, and the current multicore intel chips are 'teh foine'

[Reg]

I agree with the guys in the messages above. No matter how much you spend now you're going to be miserable in 4 years because that's just too long between upgrades. Spend much less and set aside some money for a new graphics card in a year or two and you'll be a lot happier.

[Tale]

Does it make more sense if I say that I expect to still be using this same machine to play games released in 2012?

Not really. Because the capabilities/features (not speed) of the video card and CPU, along with the amount (not speed) of RAM, are the most important things for running games. I don't think investing in speed today will make any difference when you're wanting specific features to run a game in 2012.

Big differences in speed become smaller over time. A PC with a Pentium 75 used to sell for $2000 while a Pentium 100 sold for $5000 (I speak in Aussie dollars). People paid $5000 because they wanted a system that would last. But it didn't last any longer than the P75 because the technology dated. The 25MHz speed difference, significant at the time of purchase, soon became irrelevant because they were same-era Pentiums and lacked the instruction sets available on newer processors.

That's when I learned to aim for the lower end of new generations of technology. It's already happened with the first Core 2 Duos - what is the real world difference between an E6300 and an E6800 today? They used to be the low and high end of the range. In gaming terms now, they are simply Core 2 Duos and if you have an up-to-date video card and a few gigs of RAM, you're not going to notice the difference in how games run.

Today's best graphics cards will probably be beaten by a single mid-range card 18 months from now. The minimum video card feature set for games released in 2012 might not even be on the market yet.

I say invest in a good case and PSU (I like your choices), motherboard and CPU (I think Intel quad core, as software's use of multiprocessing may improve), and I reckon those will be a good base until 2012. Upgrade your video card every couple of years and never aim too high with that component, and you won't spend any more over time than you're aiming to spend now.

Buy RAM with a mind to either increasing the number of gigabytes in the future (I don't care what speed, but make sure you buy a kind that will be available in the future to match up with your old stuff), or fill all the slots now and build with 8Gb RAM, which will probably be normal by 2010.

[HRose]

The 4850 is a heat MONSTER.  I'd be pretty scared to run 2 of them without at least considering aftermarket cooling for both, as well as some serious airflow or water considerations.  My single 4850 (oc to 690/1128) with a fan tweak is running at 52C idle, stock it was in the 70c range before I put serious effort into driving the temp down.

I can confirm.

I built my pc yesterday, the CPU cores were at about 36 idle, the videocard was at 68 under Aero (but it didn't seem to make a difference if I ran normal windows). If I put a finger above the CPU it's HOT.

I guess there isn't any way to mod the fan speed with the default drivers?

P.S.
I wouldn't buy the HD4870. It fills two slots, runs even hotter and they say the fan speed can get very loud. Even for gaming the best choice is always to buy the best videocard at accessible price (right now the 4850) and then upgrade more often.

[SnakeCharmer]

Re Crossfire or SLI:
Buy one now.  Wait 6 months when you may or may not need it, buy the second one for 1/4 the price.

[Trippy]

Re Crossfire or SLI:
Buy one now.  Wait 6 months when you may or may not need it, buy the second one for 1/4 the price.

With SLI you have to be careful. If you buy a GPU that's at it's end-of-life you may not be able to get a matching one in 6 months time. This is what happened to me with the 7800 GT.

[rattran]

I can confirm.

I built my pc yesterday, the CPU cores were at about 36 idle, the videocard was at 68 under Aero (but it didn't seem to make a difference if I ran normal windows). If I put a finger above the CPU it's HOT.

I guess there isn't any way to mod the fan speed with the default drivers?

P.S.
I wouldn't buy the HD4870. It fills two slots, runs even hotter and they say the fan speed can get very loud. Even for gaming the best choice is always to buy the best videocard at accessible price (right now the 4850) and then upgrade more often.

I have a 4870. It's two slots, so it vents to outside the case. You can set up a profile to run the fans higher than default. Running the fans at 65% it's quieter than the 9800gtx in the case right next to it. And it runs cooler. Right now it's idling at 39C with an ambient of 27C. Load it goes to ~55C.

Yes, it runs hotter than the 4850 as it runs faster. And at 100% the fans are very loud. So don't run them at 100%.

[Stormwaltz]

Because the capabilities/features (not speed) of the video card and CPU, along with the amount (not speed) of RAM, are the most important things for running games.

This argument convinced me. I've seen this with my Radeon 9800 and its lack of Pixel Shader Version This Week.

I'll drop the second card and use the savings to replace the AMD chip set with an Intel. I'll price it up later, since I'm actually doing work today, not just hovering over this thread and NCIX's PC builder.

[Stormwaltz]

Lost original post. Shorter version:

I can't find a motherboard with socket 775, DDR2, and Crossfire. The Asus P5E sounds ideal, but isn't available on NCIX or locally.

Will a DDR3 board run DDR2 RAM well? (The P5E3 is available.)

Do I even need Crossfire (future-proofing) now that I have one card? If not, do current Nvidia and ATI cards use the same PCIe port connections, or do I need to search for something specific?

[rattran]

ddr2 and ddr3 are not compatible. and pretty much anything with multiple pcie x16 slots is crossfireable. I've got a ddr2 x38 board (DFI LP LT x38-tr2) which I love.

[Trippy]

Lost original post. Shorter version:

I can't find a motherboard with socket 775, DDR2, and Crossfire. The Asus P5E sounds ideal, but isn't available on NCIX or locally.

http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=27403&vpn=P5E%20WS%20PRO&manufacture=ASUS
http://www.asus.com/products.aspx?modelmenu=1&model=1899&l1=3&l2=11&l3=572&l4=0

[Stormwaltz]

http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=27403&vpn=P5E%20WS%20PRO&manufacture=ASUS

I swear to Christ that was not showing up earlier this afternoon. >.<

Okay. Final(?) version. Nearly no part is what it once was. I dropped the 750w power supply down to a 650 because the removal of a second video card and use of the Intel chip cut power consumption a great deal. Even with 50% capacitor aging, it needs 559w. I have room to age and grow, though dual video cards will probably require replacing the power supply. In the meantime my electricity bills will be lower (also, I have only one outlet in my office, and I don't like to overtax it. I have to plug my speakers in using an extension cord to Jeremiah's playroom next door - which perversely has five outlets).

You've all been a huge help with this. Thank you.

Processor (CPU)
Intel Core 2 Quad Q9450 Quad Core Processor LGA775 2.66GHZ Yorkfield 1333FSB 12MB OEM No HSF - $344.99

CPU Cooling
Zalman CNPS7700-ALCU LGA775 S462 S478 S754 S939 S940 ALUM-COP 1000-2000RPM 20-32DBA CPU Heatsinkfan - $38.49

Motherboard
ASUS P5E WS Pro X38 LGA775 1600/1333FSB ATX 2PCI-E16 2PCI SATA2 RAID Sound GBLAN 1394 Motherboard - $295.26

DDR2 Memory (RAM)
Corsair XMS2 DHX TWIN2X4096-6400C4DHX 4GB DDR2 2X2GB PC2-6400 DDR2-800 CL 4-4-4-12 240PIN Memory Kit - 2x $144.99 = $289.98

Video Cards
Radeon HD 4870 OEM 750MHZ 512MB GDDR5 3.6GHZ PCI-E Dual DVI-I *Systems Only - 1YR NCIX Warranty* - $309.99

Computer Case
LIAN-LI PC-A10A Silver Aluminum ATX Mid Tower Case 7X5.25 5X3.5INT No PS W/ Front USB 1394 Audio - $259.99

Power Supply
Coolermaster Real Power 650W ATX 12V V2.2 SLI Active PFC 80PLUS Power Supply 120MM Fan - $109.25

Hard Drives
Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 3.5IN 500GB SATA2 8.5MS 7200RPM 32MB Cache NCQ Hard Drive OEM - $89.00
Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 1000GB 1TB SATA2 7200RPM 32MB Cache NCQ Hard Drive OEM - $194.71

DVD Writer
Samsung SH-S223F Black SATA DVD+RW 22X8X16 DVD-RW 22X6X16 16X/12X DL INT DVD Writer OEM - $34.07

Sound Card
Creative Sound Blaster X-FI Elite Pro PCI 24BIT/192KHZ Sound Card W/ Breakout Box & Remote - $282.72

Operating System
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium Edition 64BIT DVD OEM - $117.60

Warranty
1 Year Parts & 1 Years Labour Limited Warranty On System Components - $0.00

Full assembly and testing of the system.    $0.00

YOUR TOTAL
All quoted prices are in CANADIAN DOLLARS    $2,366.05

Shipping is free.

Insurance is $35.49 (covers order) or $70.98 (covers order and express replacement coverage for 30 days). i'm getting the latter. The Edmonton UPS is infamous for flaming incompetence. One of my coworkers had to have his NCIX computer replaced because they lost the delivery truck. Another came into work one morning with a lovely cellphone picture of a UPS truck with the back gate open on the highway in front of him, parcels trickling out behind it like breadcrumbs.

[schild]

Surprised the processor doesn't come with a HSF, but whatever. Zalman will handle that. ^_^

This is a serious box. I don't know about the creative drivers, so I opted for the USB external sound card (partly because my mobo really isn't big enough for the coller on the gfx card). Anyway, yea, you'll like it. Enjoy!

Edit: The only change I would make is the PSU, from the Cooler Master to the Seasonic S12 - http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=30143&vpn=SS-650HT&manufacture=Seasonic%20Electronics

Edit 2: Oh hey, the s12 is on sale right now. Is aweeeeeeeeesome.

[Trippy]

Surprised the processor doesn't come with a HSF, but whatever. Zalman will handle that. ^_^

The OEM packaging usually doesn't.

[schild]

Oh, hey. OEM. Yea. Durrrrr.

[Ralence]

I guess there isn't any way to mod the fan speed with the default drivers?

http://www.fragonsight.com/forum/video-cards/7953-ati-4850-fan-temperature-work-around.html

Catalyst Profile fix to adjust fan speed on the 4850, helped me drop 20C at idle.  You have to reload the profile everytime you reboot, but it's definitely helped.  I'll use it until there's a hotfix/patch to modify fanspeed control.

HIH

[Tale]

Because the capabilities/features (not speed) of the video card and CPU, along with the amount (not speed) of RAM, are the most important things for running games.

This argument convinced me. I've seen this with my Radeon 9800 and its lack of Pixel Shader Version This Week.

Glad it made sense. Imagine if it was Radeon 9800 x2 SLI. Even with a pair of new cards, performance is subject to whether the game was designed to use SLI. (edit - sorry this is WRONG - see posts below) You get no benefit with old games that can only use a single card (edit - don't trust me on this - see Trippy's post below). Even if the game is pure SLI awesome, you're looking at a percentage performance gain, not anything like value for money. And it has diminishing returns as the card technology ages.

I'm a little worried by this X-Fi and Vista thing - hadn't realised there was any problem beyond the early Vista/X-Fi compatibility issues. Does the guy saying the drivers suck just simply dislike Creative drivers, or is there a bigger problem beyond the Dolby Digital DTS thing? I'd probably still try and go X-Fi on Vista 64 anyway, because it's the best sound card and the most futureproof OS available.

Also I've no idea whether my Intel quad core theory will work or not (thinking that more cores could mean more survivability as a base till 2012). Just guessing :)

[Trippy]

Glad it made sense. Imagine if it was Radeon 9800 x2 SLI. Even with a pair of new cards, performance is subject to whether the game was designed to use SLI. You get no benefit with old games that can only use a single card.

No that's not true. Game developers don't code their games specially to support SLI -- it's a driver level thing below the DirectX/OpenGL APIs that NVIDIA controls.

[Tale]

Glad it made sense. Imagine if it was Radeon 9800 x2 SLI. Even with a pair of new cards, performance is subject to whether the game was designed to use SLI. You get no benefit with old games that can only use a single card.

No that's not true. Game developers don't code their games specially to support SLI -- it's a driver level thing below the DirectX/OpenGL APIs that NVIDIA controls.

How come Vanguard, for example, could not use SLI at first?

[Murgos]

Glad it made sense. Imagine if it was Radeon 9800 x2 SLI. Even with a pair of new cards, performance is subject to whether the game was designed to use SLI. You get no benefit with old games that can only use a single card.

No that's not true. Game developers don't code their games specially to support SLI -- it's a driver level thing below the DirectX/OpenGL APIs that NVIDIA controls.

How come Vanguard, for example, could not use SLI at first?

Trippy probably should have said something like "Game developers shouldn't code their games specially to support some specific function of a card or MB and should let the drivers handle it below the API level."

Also, "Because Vanguard did it" is absolutely not good reasoning for any argument.

[rattran]

I'm a little worried by this X-Fi and Vista thing - hadn't realised there was any problem beyond the early Vista/X-Fi compatibility issues. Does the guy saying the drivers suck just simply dislike Creative drivers, or is there a bigger problem beyond the Dolby Digital DTS thing? I'd probably still try and go X-Fi on Vista 64 anyway, because it's the best sound card and the most futureproof OS available.

The Creative drivers would forget my speaker configuration randomly, and every reboot would be a guess whether or not mic boost would be on. Creative's tech support linked me to beta drivers, then when they didn't work, to an older set. Uninstalling the older set trashed the Vista install. I got the Xfi initially as there were no vista drivers for the very nice Razer Barracuda card I used in XP.

Now the Xfi card sits on the dvd shelf, along with the other obsolete hardware. I'll likely try it again at some point, but have no reason to right now.

[Tale]

Glad it made sense. Imagine if it was Radeon 9800 x2 SLI. Even with a pair of new cards, performance is subject to whether the game was designed to use SLI. You get no benefit with old games that can only use a single card.

No that's not true. Game developers don't code their games specially to support SLI -- it's a driver level thing below the DirectX/OpenGL APIs that NVIDIA controls.

How come Vanguard, for example, could not use SLI at first?

Trippy probably should have said something like "Game developers shouldn't code their games specially to support some specific function of a card or MB and should let the drivers handle it below the API level."

Also, "Because Vanguard did it" is absolutely not good reasoning for any argument.

Haha true.

Sorry for spreading misinformation - I've edited my post to point out I was wrong about SLI.

[Trippy]

Glad it made sense. Imagine if it was Radeon 9800 x2 SLI. Even with a pair of new cards, performance is subject to whether the game was designed to use SLI. You get no benefit with old games that can only use a single card.

No that's not true. Game developers don't code their games specially to support SLI -- it's a driver level thing below the DirectX/OpenGL APIs that NVIDIA controls.

How come Vanguard, for example, could not use SLI at first?

I don't know what was up with Vanguard but generally speaking games that are more CPU-bound than GPU-bound tend to not see much if any advantage from using SLI. In those situations you can setup SLI to force AA and AF even for games that don't normally support it or at as high a level so you can get better quality visuals even if you don't necessarily get better frame rates.

[Stormwaltz]

Edit: The only change I would make is the PSU, from the Cooler Master to the Seasonic S12 - http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=30143&vpn=SS-650HT&manufacture=Seasonic%20Electronics

That model doesn't seem to be available through their PC builder service - they only offer 350 and 400w Seasonic models.

What about the Earthwatts 650W? It's Antec branded, but manufactured by Seasonic.

[schild]

Are Corsair's available through the PC Builder? It's what I used ni my last PC with more wattttttttttttts. But I'd only get their HX line (which ironically I'm also pretty sure is built by Seasonic) - http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=19831&vpn=CMPSU-620HX&manufacture=CORSAIR - I've never used the Earthwatts, but I imagine it's powered by green? So some corners have been cut?

[Stormwaltz]

They only have two HX models, one less than I need (520), and the other considerably more (1000).

The Earthwatts is supposed to be more "green" through efficiency. It's one of the lines Seasonic is bragging about on the 80+ efficiency section their website.

In my limited experience, "green" devices are usually underpowered or have a shorter lifespan (irony!). The reviews I looked through said nothing about lack of power, but the 650 model hasn't been around long enough (Feb 08) to know about breakdown rate.

Hm. Seems like Earthwatts beyond the first batch aren't made by Seasonic, but by a company called Delta.

[schild]

I don't know who Delta is. I'm also not entirely liking the prospect that you're limited to things they're willing to put in machines. Seems like a good way to clear our shit that won't sell. Anyway, go with whatever. The options are crap. Swapping out a power supply is a total cakewalk anyway. Might be worth going with the cheapest one and just going to buy a real one and keep the other one as backup.