f13.net

So I've been itching to put together another desktop PC to expedite my return to gaming.  Over the past few days I've managed to reacquaint myself with most of the new hardware that's been released, and now I come before you all with a build.  I will attempt to detail some of the selections so that you can see my thought process, but comments and critiques are what I'm looking for.  The sharp-eyed will note that the case is notoriously absent.  I have a few in mind that I'll get into at the end of the post, but I'm also open to suggestions.

Without further ado:

Motherboard: ASUS P5K-E/WIFI-AP LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813131196) - $159.99(-$10.00 Instant)=$149.99
- After examining the differences between 790i, x48, x38, and p35, I've decided to go with the older technology.  Shocking, I know, but with the release of Nehalem being so close, I don't see the need to spend the extra money (~$300) for the privilege of buying into an evolutionary dead-end (with a minimal performance gain to boot).

Graphics: BFG Tech BFGE98512GTXOCXE GeForce 9800 GTX 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16814143132) - $354.99
- Should really speak for itself.  The lack of an nVidia chipset prevents me from going SLI, but this is a pretty decent price-point for such a powerful card.

CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8400 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16819115037) - $199.99
- Another self-explanatory option.  Quad cores are attractive, but the exorbitant price tempers my desire in much the same way as a bucket of ice-water.

RAM: CORSAIR DOMINATOR 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model TWIN2X4096-8500C5DF (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16820145197) - $189.00(-$10.00 Instant)=$179.00
- 4GB of ddr2 goodness.  I'd get more, but I'm planning on running XP 32bit anyway.  This leaves me the option for another 2x2GB when I do decide to take the Vista plunge.
   
Hard Drive: SAMSUNG Spinpoint F1 HD103UJ 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16822152102) - $239.99(-$20.00 Instant)=$219.99
- 1 terabyte of space for 200 bones?  Sign me up!

PSU: OCZ EliteXStream 800W (http://www.amazon.com/OCZ-OCZ800EXS-EliteXStream-Supply-Internal/dp/B0017XHLJM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1209015072&sr=8-1) - $157.00
- Newegg is breaking my heart by not having this available, so this is the Amazon price.  I'm sure I can find a better quote after I shop around a bit.

Subtotal:    $1,260.96

Hopefully it's apparent in my parts selection, but the design philosophy behind this build is basically hedging my bets with regards to transitory technology (motherboard architecture, CPU, and RAM) by taking advantage of lower price-points while spending a little more on parts that should have more longevity (hard drive, graphics card, psu).

Finally, a few words about cases.  I like the design of Antec's P182, and they've certainly never steered me wrong before.  It's a shame that the model has been deactivated by NewEgg, but it's still definitely in the running.  Friends of mine have the Cooler Master Cosmos S (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119150) and the Cooler Master RC-690-KKN11-GP (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119137) and have nothing but good things to say.  Lian Li is another manufacturer I'm looking at, though their prices are--as is their wont--fairly high.

Anyone have suggestions?

Antec Solo. Also the "sideways" hard drive cage in the RC-690-KKN11-GP is absolutely horrid for cooling.

Any reason this Lian Li  (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811112068) woudln't be better than the Antec Solo? Price is the same, and it has one more 120mm fan at the front for HD cooling.

I should probably mention that I have an affinity for large, imposing black cases.

Trippy, why the hate for the RC690's cage?  Is it the single 120 or the fact that the drives would be stacked vertically?

The hard drive cage is rotated 90 degrees. This makes for much much nicer installation (cables automatically tucked behind in cage, very easy to pull them in and out assuming they are on rails). However the "sidewalls" of the cage almost completely block air flow coming in (or out if you have a fan in front blowing that way) the front of the case.

The Solo has room for 2 front mount 92mm fans. It's also designed to be a "quiet' case. It has rubber grommets for hard drive mounting or you can use the suspension system for the ultimate in drive vibration noise reduction. It also has sound dampening panels.

I'd go with the black P182 then but you'll need to make sure all your cables (in particular your power supply ones) are long enough to handle the "flipped" internal layout.

I love my P182.

Be sure to connect the audio/lights etc to the motherboard first or you will never get to them after the power cables are in.

I've got the P180 and I love it. But I'll echo the statement about making sure your cables are long enough. It does have a fairly adaptable interior, though. I moving the bottom fan to allow room for my large PSU and removing the upper drive cage to allow an intake fan there. I'm guessing from Trippy's definition that the Solo is the next in that series.

My case is almost silent, a gentle whir, but I defeat that with my factory overclocked 8800gtx because I crank the gpu fan.

No the Solo is a traditional ATX case with the power supply at the top -- it's just a really nicely designed one (I have the P150 which they no longer make but has the same features).

I am putting a new rig together myself at the moment, so I thought I would drop a shit load on the case - probably not needing to replace it anytime soon.  So if you want a beautiful and imposing black case in which a small child could live in...Silverstone Temjin TJ09.  This pic is of the silver one (obviously), but its the only one I could find which provided a bit of scale:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v464/barney1969/silverstone-model.jpg)

For the money for these cases, it should come with the girl.  But the case is pure craftsmanship.

I recently just picked up the Samsung F1 Spinpoint myself.  I am agonizing over MB at the moment. 

From my research the Intel Q6600 is a great deal for a processor, and very overclockable.

here's some more pics of that Silverstone  (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowImage.aspx?CurImage=11-163-075-02.jpg&Image=11-163-075-02.jpg%2c11-163-075-03.jpg%2c11-163-075-04.jpg%2c11-163-075-05.jpg%2c11-163-075-06.jpg%2c11-163-075-07.jpg%2c11-163-075-08.jpg%2c11-163-075-09.jpg%2c11-163-075-10.jpg%2c11-163-075-11.jpg&S7ImageFlag=0&WaterMark=1&Item=N82E16811163075&Depa=0&Description=SILVERSTONE+TJ09-B+Black+Computer+Case) case.

I like the isolation of the hard drives, with the air intakes on the side bypassing any heat generated in that area. It looks great in theory, anyway.

More rotated drive cages blocking air flow across the drives. That mid fan may also interfere with really long video cards.

No problem fitting in video cards at all, the only problem I have had with the mid-fan is cabling around it a bit - workable but not ideal. I went black, without the window in the panel.  I want the case to look sleek, and not like a midway attraction with flashing lights and LEDs.  I did pick up a bit of bling for it though;

Kikbox laser cut 120mm fan grill
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v464/barney1969/KB-G1-0033b.jpg)

Kikbox laser cut dual-120mm fan grill for the top vent.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v464/barney1969/KB-G2-0017b.jpg)

Bad ass.

You do realize that top skull is blocking quite a bit of air flow right?

Yup, thanks.  I stuffed a dual radiator (thermochill) up top for water-cooling, ran it all with some older components (which run quite a bit hotter than alot of the newer stuff) and my ambient temps were great.

EDIT: If you are thinking of water-cooling, this case is NOT ideal....had quite a few issues modding the case to fit the radiator.  The TJO7 is apparently much better for this.

Seems like I just read an article about Intel slashing quad core pricing in half this week.  I think it had a quad priced at $269.

edit: I remembered correctly
http://www.pricewatch.com/microprocessors/core_2_quad_q9300.htm

I'm starting to think about building new systems for myself and the roommate.  It's been years since I've done this though.

Is it still ideal to match the CPU/FSB and memory speeds?  The current multiples seem to be 1333 and 1066.  Are there other common ones I should be aware of?

I've got 1066 memory running at 800 to lower the latencies. Always wondered if I should bump up the bus at the cost of latency (4-4-4-whatever to 5-5-5-whatever).

Oh hay.. I was just wondering about sum pc stuffs.

I'm looking to upgrade the vid card.  It's a 512mb nVidia 7300 LE right now. I skimped when I bought the machine last year for two reasons.  1) I was, fully expecting to upgrade eventually  and 2) I foresee the end (or at least a long hiatus) of my PC gaming career within the next 3-5 years and I wasn't expecting any games to come along that I'd REALLY want to play and not care about the crappy frame rates for another year or so.  Of course that's changed.  :awesome_for_real:

So!  Without needing or want to drop the dough on a $300 vid card, wtf are the "good" upgrades? I'm thinking of only looking to spend about $160ish and considering the 8600 series but I'm not sure it's a decent enough step-up. Any other suggestions?

512MB 8800GTs are going for well under $200 at NewEgg.

$180 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150252)

If you're willing to buy open box parts, there's a couple as low as $160.

Memory doesn't need to match (and most MBs wouldn't even be able to handle the memory at 1333 MHz). CPU and FSB should.

Lian-Li's cases are nice and everything but being so light they tend to rattle if you end up putting a lot of cooling in them. Also that shit dents easily.

If someone could point me to a case that was:

a)  Basic black
b)  Sturdy
c)  Has lots of fan slots
d)  No power supply
e)  Didn't have a clear side, no LEDs
f)  Didn't cost more than my processor

I'd be all over that.  My cheapo Rosewill tower is getting a bit long in the tooth, and has less than ideal airflow.

Use Newegg's Power Search feature.

I've just seen the Silverstone TJ10B-WESA (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811163109) and I don't think I'll be able to help myself.  If no one voices any objections, I will be pulling the trigger on the setup tonight.

Final question: good CPU coolers that are decently quiet?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835154001

Assuming it fits.

Thanks, Trippy.  You'll be able to hear my curse from LEO if it doesn't fit in that case.

While we're here, is there any reason in the world to get a sound card if you don't want 100 speaker all digital audio or any of that other stuff? I have Realtek HD on the motherboard and I'm perfectly satisfied, but is it eating CPU cycles or anything weird like that?

e)  Didn't have a clear side, no LEDs

Amen. I built my partner and I new PCs. I used the cheapie NewEgg case of the day--the Smilodon. The cases are quite functional, lots of fans, easy access. But we're two not quite middle aged women living in a quiet cottage on Cape Cod feeling ridiculous because we have cases with a ludicrous front panel that glow blue in the dark from the side and were clearly aimed at 12 year old boys.

It might be. Hard to know without digging up some benchmarks and comparing it to sound cards with onboard sound acceleration/more powerful sound processors. Also you might be missing out on certain 3D sound formats that games support.

PIXPLZ

 :grin:

 I think I'll edit the post instead.

I just bought this (like last Sunday), and put it together (last night). I think i did a good job, even if im not really a hardware junky (more of a software and tools kinda junky)


Item List

• VGA EVGA 512-P3-N801-AR 8800GT 512M (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130318) - Retail (Qty=1, Price=$189.99)
• CASE SIGMA|LA VIE LBNWBP 500W RTL (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811226013) - Retail (Qty=1, Price=$69.99)
• DVD ROM LITE-ON|DH-16D2S-04 SATA % (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106095) - OEM (Qty=1, Price=$17.99)
• MB ASUS P5K-E/WIFI-AP P35 775 RT (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131196) - Retail (Qty=1, Price=$149.99)
• CPU INTEL|C2Q Q6600 2.40G 775 8M R (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115017) - Retail (Qty=1, Price=$239.99)
• MEM 2Gx2|GSK F2-8500CL5D-4GBPK R (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231166) - Retail (Qty=1, Price=$144.99)
• MNTR HANNSG|LCD 19" 5MS JW-199DPB R (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254001) - Retail (Qty=1, Price=$169.99)

Subtotal: 982.93

Shipping was about +40$ , my intended budget was under 1k, and to fully replace my old system (a 7-8 year old, once top end gamming Dell), i have about 60$ in mail in rebates.

I think i did good, and its got leather  8-)[/list]

After all that and you buy a 19 inch widescreen? Why not a bit more for a 22 or some such? Seems a waste after building such a nice rig.

Otherwise, seems like a good economic buy. Not sure about the memory, tho. Not heard of the brand and I tend to shy away from any but the 'big three', crucial, corsair and kingston.

:cry:


 ;D
FIFY!

G.Skill is decent, I've stuck with cosair just for their awesome warranty service.

Make sure you register your EVGA card, then 60 days from now, look at your wallet and upgrade to the top of the line card. Through their step-up program.

Ok - here's my question of the day, 8800GT's vs. 8800GTS/X's.   They look pretty similar to me stat wise, but the 8800GT's look like they vent inside the case where the 8800GT?'s vent to the outside. There are also 2 versions of the 8800GTS/X chip?

Yeah, thanks for the heads up, this weekend is when i do all the paperwork (rebates and what not), thanks for the heads up on that program, ill look into it.

Some parts are definitely slated for an upgrade in the near feature (Power supply, came with the case, Im using my old Hard drive, ETC..).


Simple, my old (21 inch)CRT is going fuzzy, and i needed something now, that fit in my target budget. I really tried to put the money where it mattered.

For the 8800 GTS you want the 512 MB version (the G92 version) *NOT* the 640 MB version. There are 8800 GTs that have the cooler that vents to the outside (and fills up an extra slot space).

I do have a question, maybe someone can recommend a low cost, Fast, decent sized hard drive. Really looking for fast (i am Not sure how to tell how fast a hard drive is) to decrease load times. I am guessing some where in the 250gb or more storage range. I normally try to put my OS on a separate physical drive..so i may need 2, the OS one can be smaller.

hard drives, like everything else, can be two of three. good & fast, or decent & cheap, but normally not cheap & fast. Most hard drives rated at 7200 rpm are pretty much similar, unless you're being supah anal. The next step up is 10k rpm drives, which are pricy.

Brand wise, I'd stay with WD or Seagate. WD has improved quality of late, and they seem to be more silent than seagates, but it varies a lot. So read reviews on new egg.

It's not going to make that much of a difference unless you go for the new WD VelociRaptor (which doesn't meet your low cost criteria):

http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14583/6

It might be worth it for some of us, once the Velociraptor is out, to get some regular raptors, since they're bound to drop in price after a spell. They are still pretty danged fast.

I've found that I have little clue as to what would be a good motherboard these days.  I've had Abit, ECS, and FDS (current) in the past.  Other than the Abits being from the VP6 series with the leaky capacitors, they've all served my needs well enough.  (And ECS boards are awesomely purple.)

1) I have no interest in overclocking.
2) I'm looking at a Q9300 or Q6600 processor.  I'm favoring the Q9300 myself.  My roommate might go with a combo deal for a Q6600.  So a Socket 775 board.
3) I don't care about SLI.  Any graphics card will be an NVIDIA in the $150-$200 range most likely.
4) What's the difference between PCIe and PCIe16?
5) I'm happy in the sub-$100 range.  I'm okay with more with a very good reason.
6) DDR2-667 (or DDR2-533) memory seems to have a decent price point, so compatability with these would be good.
7) Should I bother with RAID?  I don't have a huge amount of data and I'm thinking I'll just get a spare disk and rsynch it once a week.
8) Anything I should be aware of that I don't have listed here?

So what boards should I consider?

Well, unfortunately, if you want the latest hawtness in motherboard chipsets, which are the x48 boards, then your price has to go up. If you're happy with the P35 chipset, which I think is a decent gaming chipset, this list I made  (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010200280+1070509908+4027+107172277+1071728997+1073607587+1070725639&Configurator=&Subcategory=280&description=&Ntk=&srchInDesc=) may be of some help. It fits a few of your criteria:

Under 100
PCIExpress16 (the vid card slot, basically)
DDR2 memory standard

I would only look at three brands from that list; Intel, Asus and Gigabyte. Intel has the best documentation, since its an american company and has english speakers writing the manual, but once its up and running, all three are comparable in quality.

None of those have raid capability, btw. I don't really think you should bother unless you're into supah fast load times and/or redudancy, which from the sounds of it, you're not. Since you can, as you say, back up your data on a separate drive, there's no real need.

To address the issue between regular PCI Express and PCI Express 16, there was, when PCI Express first came out, two types, the ones that really did 16 bit and the ones that didn't, although they still supported 16 bit cards, just throttled down to 8 bit. Nobody but some anal freaks in a lab somewhere would have noticed the difference, however, since at the time there wasn't a way of taking advantage of the 16 bit bandwidth. Now, its a factor, to some degree, but I think most new motherboards are coming with PCIExpress 16 bit slots. There's a whole other issue about regular PCI slots being 16 bit or not, but I will let someone else talk about that, since from what I know, its not really important to most consumers if the PCI slots are 16 or 8 bit.

Thanks.  I'll look over the list.
I don't know any of the chipsets, which is part of the problem.  There are a bazillion Intels, and a good number of SIS, VIA, and nVIDIA ones.  Variety is good until you haven't paid attention to motherboards in three years. :|

Well, basically, I stay away from VIA and SIS, simply because I've only found them on budget boards. I admit my ignorance as to specifically why they aren't good technically, and in fact I may be wrong in such speculation, but that's just been my experience. The two options you have are Nvidia and Intel chipsets, and Nvidia chipsets are notoriously unreliable, so I stay away from them, especially since, like you, I don't have much use for SLI. That pretty much leaves Intel chipsets, of which the P35 up till about, what, 3  months ago was the only game on the block for Intel gaming boxes.

I'll probably lose geek cred, but I'm seriously thinking about this ECS P35T-A board (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813135059&nm_mc=OTC-pr1c3watch&cm_mmc=OTC-pr1c3watch-_-Motherboards+-+Intel-_-ECS-_-13135059).  NewEgg has its memory at 800 although it's really 800/667.

Now I know Trippy said memory speed doesn't need to match nowadays, but given prices are nearly identical for the two speeds, is it worth choosing 667MHz memory with a 1333MHz FSB given everything else is equal?  (And if it really doesn't matter, then I can keep my clock speed multiple superstitions.)

Not much has grabbed me in the under $100 price range.  I like heatpipes, but I'm not sure it's worth the large jump in cost for boards with them which I probably won't take full advantage of.  I'll keep looking at other options though.

If the price point isn't great, go for 800 rather than 667, but more importantly, don't cheap out on the brand. Crucial, Kingston, Corsair. Say it after me! Crucial. Kingston. Corsair. And then sometimes even Kingston can crap out.

Yeah.  I always go with one of those three for memory.

Ignore what Engels said about PCIe.

For the budget range the P35 chipset is an excellent choice (not so long ago it was actually Intel's "enthusiast" chipset). ECS is not a good brand, though. Something like this ASUS board would work:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131189

though people don't like the layout (the FDD connector is where the IDE connector should be).

You want DDR2-800 memory. Don't be misled by the fact that 667 MHz memory is evenly divisible into a 1333 MHz FSB.

Ignore RAID.

Getting back to your PCIe question, the "x" number (e.g. "x16") represents the number of data lanes that slot supports which determines that max bandwidth for that slot. The standard for video cards is x16 but other cards like a sound card or video capture card may only need an "x1" slot or an "x4" slot, etc. One confusing thing is that the physical size of the slot doesn't have to correspond to the number of data lanes it supports. E.g. you can have an x8 slot which supports a PCIe video card, and in fact many SLI/Crossfire boards have such a configuration -- one "true" x16 slot and one x8 slot for the second video card.

Lanes, Pins, Bits. Boils down to the same stuff :P

From the wiki:

The PCIe link is built around dedicated unidirectional couples of serial (1-bit), point-to-point connections known as "lanes".

I've got the money for a complete system overhaul (since everything is now at least two generations obsolete) but I think I'm going to wait another month or two. There's a new motherboard chipset (P45,G45), new Nvidia card (9900GTX) and the price of the e8500 is still higher than its launch price due to limited stock. I believe all three are meant to hit in the next 2-3 months. I've already bought the case (SG-03) and fan (NT06-lite) since I had a friend at a computer store who would special order them in. No luck on the silverstone PP03 short cable kit. As far as I can see it simply isn't sold in Australia.

In the meantime I'm hunting for a box that can accept two drives (ideally easily swappable), manage RAID 0 over the two of them and present an eSATA interface to it. This way I could use hard drive pairs for cheap storage, power them down when I don't need the data and keep my actual desktop small form factor. Once again I'm pretty sure such devices exist (Such as the AMS DS-2340SES Venus) and will become more available now that eSATA is becoming common and hard-drives are so incredibly cheap... but they're still specialized and mixed in with all the 1-9K NAS drive boxes.

Time for a new mouse if I go with that [Note to self: you're upgrading, don't be so cheap.].  It mentions being able to take DDR2-1066 memory with some memory management program.  Is it safer to stick with DDR2-800 in that board?

Probably. I would have to look up what ASUS is doing to support DDR2-1066 but I would assume they aren't doing anything too funky if you wanted to try it. Though the speed up going to DDR2-1066 is pretty small (like 1% - 5% at best) assuming you are comparing identical timings between the DDR2-800 and 1066 RAM.

The following is being delivered today (from Newegg):

Item  List

MOUSE LOGITECH|MX 518 USB RETAIL - Retail (Qty=1, Price=$39.99)   

MEM 2GX2|A-DATA ADQVE1B16K R - Retail (Qty=1, Price=$76.99)   <-- 4 gigs of DDR2 800 ram for 77 bucks???!!!

MOUSE PAD X-TRAC| RIPPER XLSILKY R - Retail (Qty=1, Price=$16.99)   

CPU INTEL|C2D E8400 3G 775 45N R - Retail (Qty=1, Price=$189.99)   

HD 500G|WD 7K 16M SATA2 WD5000AAKS - OEM (Qty=1, Price=$89.99)   

DVD BURN LITE-ON|LH-20A1L-06 LS RT - Retail (Qty=1, Price=$32.99)   

CASE ANTEC|SONATA III 500 BK RT - Retail (Qty=1, Price=$129.95)   

MB ABIT  IP35 Pro 775 - Retail (Qty=1, Price=$169.99)   

VGA EVGA 512-P3-N845-AR 8800GTS RT - Retail (Qty=1, Price=$239.99)   

Subtotal: 986.87

There are also 90 dollars in rebates not mentioned here.  So, the whole shebang for less than 900 bones.

No, it's not top of the line but it will get the job done.

Good luck!

*Shrug* 273 reviews on newegg.  Only 1% panned it, sounds like reasonable odds.

If I can get this to show for everyone, here's my "best" spec (https://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/Wishlist/PublicWishDetail.asp?WishListNumber=4938949&WishListTitle=Amy%27s+Best+Spec) from the components I've been pouring over.  The total list is much, much larger, so instead of asking everyone to look through all of that and piece it back together I'll just check there is nothing wrong with the components I like best.

This doesn't account for case, power supply, CPU cooler or a couple of case fans to get some airflow going.

Let the mocking (and serious commentary) begin while I go search for unicorn themed cases.

Edit to add: Refined and Updated Spec (https://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/Wishlist/PublicWishDetail.asp?WishListNumber=9140728&WishListTitle=Amy%27s+Refined+Spec).

Still trying different things.  Motherboard is the most in-doubt.  The power supply is a placeholder until I can get to a store and look at them in person, but gives me a reasonable price.  A case is the only thing lacking from the list, which will take some time to decide on.  The one thing I know is that if I go with the CPU fan and graphics card there, I need to make sure the case has lots of clearance.

Looks good, but why the Abit ICHR9 raid board?

I found three boards at New Egg I liked.  That's the top of the three which had solid reviews.  It's also got the heat pipe and copper heatsinks for the bridges.  I want a quiet and cool system for once.

There was a cheaper Abit, and the ECS which no one here but me loves.  I will likely pick between the cheaper two, but if I go fancy that one will do nicely.  The ASUS boards all either had specs I didn't like or horror stories that made me think I'd leave them alone.  The Gigabits just didn't have the specs I wanted.  There were several decent boards using 1066 memory, however I didn't feel like spending the extra for it since none of those boards stood out.

If you are trying to build a "quiet" computer I would suggest reading http://silentpcreview.com.

That Abit board is very nice except it has a gimpy Ethernet controller. If you have a Gigabit Ethernet LAN and need to transfer very large files back and forth you might want to find another board. The Firewire performance is kind of sucky too.

http://techreport.com/articles.x/12747/15

I haven't tried the Zalman hard drive cooler but I would bet getting a case with good frontal air flow and just sticking a quiet 120 mm fan up front would work just as well. You'll also need to make sure that video card isn't going to interfer with other cards you might want to install in that MB.

I prefer to buy memory that's meant to be used with a dual channel setup in a "kit" with 2 matching pairs. It's not as necessary as when dual channel memory technology was first introduced but I still do it anyways for the piece of mind. So this is the one from Kingston that's the same as yours but in a matching kit:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820104001

That 9300 is $284. Honestly, I would just splurge for the 9450 at that cost. Newegg doesn't have it on their site, which is weird. But it's 2.66 base and has a 12MB Cache instead of a 6MB. It's a fucking animal. It is about $60 more though.

Also, this mobo has been great. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131188&Tpk=Asus%2bp5kc) Thus far, only about a week old in my new box.

If you're trying to be silent, stop it with all that heat pipe crap. Just get a Zalman home theater case and paint a unicorn on it. My machine is fucking silent and it's all stock cooling and fans. I can barely hear anything when I put my face next to it.

Finally, I'm never touching Abit again after my last 2 mobos.

I've done the fans in front of hard drives before.  They get incredibly gunky really fast around here.  I don't know why they're worse than normal fans, but I had lots of problems with them.  I'd rather space my drives out, give them a nominal amount of cooling, then just not worry about them.

I saw the memory kit and thought I'd just spare myself a few dollars.  Since you think it's worth the check, I'll splurge on the three dollars extra if I go with the Kingston.

Home LAN is 100, I have no use for firewire.  As I said, I'll likely go with a cheaper board here.  That'll get me south of $1000, too.

Since I'm likely to get one of the cheaper motherboards, heat pipes won't be all that abundant in the system.  Just the around disks and one of my video card options.

I know the Q9450 has double the cache, but other than better results due to the higher processor speed, there didn't seem to be any real difference in all the review tests I've seen.  I doubt I'd notice a difference for anything I'll be using this system for.

I appreciate all the help.  I don't feel completely ignorant of current trends anymore.  Only mostly.

Thoughts, putting them here even though I'm not going to build until June-July..

Power Supply: ???
-I have no idea, I used to use SeaSonic drives, and I appreciate their noise levels but who is the current king of the mountain?  Also how worried do I have to be about a PSU not having a 24v rail for the 8800?  I have never truly understood the whole fucking PSU rail thing well.  My understanding is that a quality 550 PSU will have the power configured the way you need it?

CPU:  Dual-core before bleeding edge price jump.
-I figure that Quad is a total fscking waste at this point so better to put the money into more a speedy dual.

MOBO:  ???
-I have no idea.  I used to love Abit/Asus but I just dont trust them anymore.  I've had bad experiences.  They just dont see any good.  I've heard decent first hard reviews on MSI products, just what the fuck brands make decent mobo's these days???

RAM:  the max I can put in of top shelf shit.
-Fuck 64bit OS's and fuck Vista so I guess I can't run beyond 4GB?  How does this work exactly I've got 2gb in my current rig on 32bit XP so this is a new thing for me to deal with.  Do people recommend 2x2GB sticks or 4x1GB sticks or whats the deal here?  I already have 2x1GB sticks of quality stuff from Corsair so I'd rather just pick up another 2 for free thanks to the current ram prices but honestly its all so cheap that whatever is considered the best path...

HDs:  A small 10k rpm drive for game installs.  A pair of 7200rpm drives from old machine(s) for OS and general storage.
-Games like Conan and general epeen desires demand the 10k drive.  Western Digital is still considered primo t/f?

GPU:  One of the souped up Geforce 8800's, the pimped out ones with 6xx or 7xx onboard mem.
-I'll do some research when I get closer to the buy date and price everything out.

Sound:  none
-Onboard sound has gotten good enough that I can't think of a reason to use a sound card unless it had a faceplate, remote & good interface allowing me to control my computer like a stereo from across the room.

Case:  Lian-Li
-Fuck Antec, I had a very bad experience with their janky plastic bullshit last year and I'm done with those clowns.  This seems to be the only brand that is a step up from them.

Optical drive: ???
-Does anyone make decent drives anymore?  The last few I've had have been cheap, noisy, and half of them didn't work for shit.  Wtf.  Ever since every drive became a combo of 45 features they have sucked balls.

So yeah that sounds like a plan right?

Get a Zalman case if you're spending the money!

Also, you want a sound card. Just get a cheap Creative.

Finally, don't get the 8800s with more than 512 RAM, they're pretty much shit.

This is a good question for me too. I've noticed that sticks with higher capacity don't have the same CAS latency and other timings as smaller capacity sticks. I'm venturing a guess that 4x1 is better than 2x2, in terms of speed, but I will let someone with more knowhow answer, since I'm curious too.

I've always understood it to be better to have more sticks, however if you believe you minght ever want to upgrade I am not sure the performance increase is large enough to justify buying 4x1 over 2x2.

I think you mean 12V rail. The high end PS market has gotten very crowded in the last few years. It's also confusing cause some power supplies are basically rebranded. E.g. Corsair's are made by Seasonic and OCZ's used to be made by FSP (OCZ acquired PC Power & Cooling last year so that's changed I believe).

Depends on which card you want to get and what other stuff you will have in your computer. In other words, maybe.

If you aren't going to go with ASUS you could try Gigabyte or DFI if you want an "enthusiast" board. If you want to know which are the most "reliable" boards check out some of the overclocking forums.

It's a tradeoff between timings and upgradability. Like Engels said the 1 GB sticks often have faster timings but if you go 4x1 that means if you do move to a 64-bit OS on that same machine and want to go beyond 4 GB you'll have to toss some sticks.

Yes WD is still considered primo. Check out their new VelociRaptor too.

As for motherboard brands, there's a lot of different opinions. I like DFI (good rma experience with one I had go bad) Gigabyte, BFG, EVGA are okay, Asus and Abit I've had issues with some boards, some have been fine. I've only dealt with a few MSI, and been underwhelmed.
Foxconn, ECS, and others have been sources of problems.

Much like with hard drives though, other people's lists may vary wildly

Quick update: all parts are finally here, and construction started last night.

Initial impressions:
- This Silverstone case is fucking gigantic, and the motherboard tray is pretty much win.
- IO shields can eat me.  Of course I forgot to put it in before I assembled everything on the motherboard, so I was able to experience the joy of taking (most) everything out and putting it back in again.
- The PSU looks very nice, but I'm a little worried about it drawing air up from below the case after it's been set on the carpet.  In the near future, I expect to cannibalize a box for some cardboard to set it on.
- The Tuniq Tower is a bitch and a half to install and the instruction guide is lackluster.  I pity the poor son of a bitch who has to work inside his case.
- Silverstone manuals are fail.  The manual for my old Antec TX1050B case was infinitely more lucid and useful.  It's a good thing Silverstone's design is inspiring and construction is top-notch--otherwise I'd be more than a little pissed.
- The 9800GTX is impossibly huge.  I mourn the loss of 4 (four!) SATA ports, but feel they served a cause larger--and I mean that both literally and figuratively--than themselves.

I've taken loads of pictures along the way, so if anyone here is interested, I can post them as a sort of photo-log of the build process.  More thoughts are likely to follow after I finish the cabling.

You can get right angle SATA connectors that might fix that problem depending on where the board is overlapping.

In fact, the board came with one.  Unfortunately, to get it in, I'd need to remove the graphics card...again.  I'm not sure that I'm ready to consider that solution.

Update: System built!  Pictures to follow!

Update: Pics!

During the day:


 (http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s68/LogikWMD/bigblackbox/IMG_0014.jpg)

When the lights get low:

(http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s68/LogikWMD/bigblackbox/IMG_0015.jpg)

Whats the big ass black thing in your case in the upper left of the image? Heat sink?

Looks sexey. I need to post screens of mine.

Power Supply: Ok so I'll figure everything else out, then bug Trippy.  I hate PSU's so much..

MOBO: I don't like ASUS, I'm going to look at hardOCP and see what they are liking these days.  I'll scratch MSI and add Gigabyte to my list of brands to pay extra attention to.

RAM: I think I'm going to go with 4x1GB sticks, probably just add two more of the same I have now (Corsair XMS2, blahblah)

Sound: Schild, I'm not sure why you think a sound card is worth adding.  I still remember the bad old days when sound card drivers cause half the problems.  Fuck Creative Labs and nobody else seems to even bother manufacturing the damn things. 

Case: Schild, I love Zalman, I've been using their copper flowers for a couple of builds now, those cases that look like stereos are fucking awesome, but fitting the type of components I need to fit would be a bitch.  I'm not going to spend $600 on a fucking ultra silent case, that shit can blow me.  I will sleep through WW3, silence is not worth that kind of cash.

Optical drive: I know it sounds stupid but I'd still like to hear someone tell me they love their cd/dvd/cdr/w uuuuultra combo drive.  That it isn't a noisy piece of shit and it actually seems to work well and do its job fast and reliably.  I have had such bad luck.

Because I have used two new motherboards in the last 6 months with that high-end sound shit and there were huge performance hits to using them.

As in the board wasn't good or your performance suffered when you were running the on-board sound?

Bingo. Not to mention that these 'high-end sound' is not 'high-end' in the least. Putting in even a 5 year old soundblaster PCI card shows a huge improvement to the most untrained ear (my own).

The board was optical out, it was fune, the performance hit was damning though. Like utterly and completely terrible.

Noted then.  Does anyone besides Creative make sound cards??  Or do I just use my old Audigy pos if I can find the fucking thing.

That's the Tuniq Tower CPU Heatsink.  I have one in my system as well.  It's bloody monster, and like he mentioned earlier, a super pain in the ass to install.  You absolutely must mount that thing before you install the MOBO, and it's still a bitch.  The top edge's aren't too sharp, but the bottom fins, down where you hand is when your screwing it down, yeah, they are a bit sharp.  It fucking works great though.  Under load, my CPU is only roughly 15-20 degrees over ambient temp.  It proably weighs something like five pounds though.

Well, I got vista installed, and--I really should have expected the fail to start here--it's not seeing any wireless connections at all, despite the fact that I'm seeing about 5 on my macbook currently.  Looks like I'm off to try various and sundry arcane solutions, but if anyone has a fix that worked for them, I'm all ears.


Additional info: router is a Linksys WRT45G running in mixed mode with WPA Personal encryption.

Drivers installed correctly? Make sure that you're looking at the right wireless manager. Some brands take over control from Windows wireless and use their own gui, making it look like broken when you look only at the windows wireless gui.

o7

You're the man, sir!  Asus's Wifi-AP Solo was hijacking Vista's wireless control.  Problem solved!  Now to figure out why my USB78 header is such a failure...

I always forget this when setting up new configurations and many customizations I do count on having the windows rtlgina thingy. It's a real pain in the gina.

It's not April anymore but I'm sure God will forgive me for posting this here. Basically I'm buying the below and want to run it by you guys first... what do you think?

VGA: 512M 8800GTS Asus
RAM: 2G Kit-800(2x1G) Kingston (x2)
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E8400
HDD: Seagate SATA 500 (x2)
MOBO: Asus P5N Deluxe
PSU: Antec Earth Watts 500W
CASE: Antec P182
Optical Drives: Samsung 20X DVD+-R (x2)
Monitor: 24" Samsung 245B DVI WS

Also I was really shocked how low cost decent computers are these days. I had actually put aside $5k for a new computer so finding out the prices was like a very big tax return in May.

Is that the P5N-T Deluxe?

Yes.

Thats the cpu I'm going with, so good choice there imo.  What brought you to that PSU choice?  I've yet to delve into PSU's for my build so I'm curious what you looked at.  I prefer Corsair to anything else when it comes to RAM but I've heard nothing negative about Kingston.

My only complaint is a personal one.  Frankly I don't really like the P18X series of cases but I know I'm in the minority.  I think the plastic clip in shit is annoying and the case is huge but somehow feels very cramped.  I also had one ship where the drive bays were not fit properly and getting cd-rom drives in and out as fucking rediculously annoying, enough so that I broke a drive trying to remove it and generally got really pissed off with the case.  I got my dad's black P180+ or 180B or whatever to look good and be nice but my own gunbolt metal P180 is a fucking piece of shit, the sides are so difficult to get on and off, the aforementioned cdrom issues and I'm really just over the whole plastic clip in shit.  I miss the days when things were done with screws.

I have a P180b here, and I'm not sure what you mean by the plastic clip-in shit. Do you mean the sliders you screw onto the side of a cd/dvd drive to have it 'clip in' to the chassis? If so, mine have worked great. If you mean the slide-in top fan, that's not been an issue.

I think the 8800GTS in 512Mb format is an incremental improvement over the 8800GT - go with the 8800GT or go with the 640Mb version of the GTS.  4 months ago when I bought there were also 1Gb cards starting to come out.  No idea if they're any improvement though.

You have it backwards. The 512 MB version has the new faster GPU (G92).

The whole thing was just too much plastic for me, I hate the I/O drive bays, I dont really like the way the HD enclosure is setup and all the things that are supposed to make the cables be more clean were a pita.  Kids on my lawn kneejerk reaction or something.  But mostly I really really fucking hate those stupid plastic clips you screw onto the side of your I/O drives.  That shit has not worked well on one case, worked perfect one another and failed miserably on the most recent Antec I bought.  To the point where I was so pissed that I'll never buy their shit ever ever again. 

The PSU and most of the choices really were me picking a brand I knew was solid from past experience or a friend's past experiences and then using google-fu to make sure they were still solid. Hence all the Samsung, Asus, and Antec. One of my friends has a p180 case and loves it (though it was a PITA to put together he says), plus it's pretty quiet. Good point on the RAM, I remember (maybe, been a while) Corsair being very good and very expensive but it looks like price wars have brought it down to reasonable prices now. I think I'll go with that over the Kingston. I'm also umming and arring over the HDDs because I've heard that the Western Digital drives are quieter, anyone know anything about that?

The Green Power WD drives are the quietest standard desktop hard drives currently (ignore notebook drives, etc.). The non-GP WD drives may be quieter than the Seagate but it depends on which model you are thinking about.

Honestly, hemming and hawing over the noise of a hard drive is a bit much.  Never, with any of the different brands I've owned (Seagate, WD, and now Samsung), has the sound level of the drive been an issue.  If a quiet PC is your main concern, you should really be looking at CPU cooler first, graphics card second (unless things have remarkably changed), case third, and power supply fourth (if at all).

Speaking on the components I own: the Tuniq tower is all but inaudible when I turn the rheostat all the way down; as a bonus, at that speed it still provides adequate cooling.  The case I've got is definitely slightly louder than my old Antec 1080B--which was likely about as loud at the P182 you're looking at--but has the additional bonus of 5 120mm fans.  Nevertheless, the P182 appeared pretty solid, though I would've been more tempted had it been bigger.

Finally, why the mobo choice?  I didn't exhaustively research nVidia's chipsets, but I was under the impression that they were of dubious quality before the advent of 790i--which is still prohibitively priced.

Not been my experience. Although most drives have modest noise, there are some out there that make some serious crunching noises. Currently, with stock cpu fan and stock CPU cooler, the loudest thing in my case are my drives when active.

If you've never had a hard drive that was louder than any one of your fans, you've simply been lucky.

I've never had drive noise problems like that.

Well, 'problem' is a relative term. Sure, my drives make some noise, since I have 4 in Raid 5, which means that anytime something is read or written, all 4 go at it. Its not an invasive, problematic noise at all, but there are those out there that want a super silent machine that lets you completely ignore that you even have a computer under the desk

Case type, more than anything, can affect this. If you have a P180 that essentially encloses your drives in a sound vault of rolled steel, then you're probably not going to hear a thing. On the other hand, if you have a burshed aluminum light weight case like I do at home (Antec Lanboy), you sacrifice sound insulation for case weight.

I sleep 4 feet from my computer and would like to leave it on overnight to download things because Australian internet is slow as shit, so my noise concern is a little more important than it not drowning out the game I'm playing. Harddrives can get very loud in the stillness of night when everyone is asleep, or trying to be.

just in case anyone cared, the Hanns-g monitor i got, Really good picture, no dead pixels ETC..i recommend.

Did you get the 28"?

I built my machine Thursday evening and spent most of yesterday tweaking as I was having various issues at first.  Things seem to be running well now, but I'll need a few more days to know for sure.  The build I ended up with:

• ABIT IP35 Pro LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16813127030)
• Intel Core 2 Quad Q9300 Yorkfield 2.5GHz LGA 775 95W Quad-Core Processor (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16819115043)
• ECS N8800GT-512MX+ GeForce 8800GT 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16  (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16814134035)
• COOLER MASTER Mystique RC-632S-KKN1-GP Black Aluminum/ SECC ATX Mid Tower Computer Case (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16811119129)
• COOLER MASTER eXtreme Power RP-600-PCAR 600W ATX (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16817171013)
• Kingston HyperX 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16820104001)
• Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD6400AAKS 640GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16822136218)
• XIGMATEK HDT-S1283 120mm Rifle CPU Cooler (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16835233003)

I got the Zalman HD coolers, unfortunately they weren't compatable with the case.  I'll need a plate or mounting bracket to fit them into the 5.25" bays because of their design.  A DVD drive and my old 160 Gb drive are the only old components.

The board needed a BIOS update to properly read the CPU temperature.  I thought I had messed up the heat sink installation so redid it a few times.  In some ways it's good as the final install gives the best airflow through the case.  Installing the tower cooler on this board is a bitch though.  Getting it out is worse.  Doing it three times sucked.  Oh, I hate the new CPU fan-clip system.

The cooler rocks though.  With a little burn-in time, my system now idles at 75 degrees, and hasn't broken 90 under moderate load.  Maxxed out CoX isn't exactly a huge stressor, however it's still far better performance than my old rig.  Everything was as smooth as glass.  No hiccups.  The Black Market loaded instantly.  Particles flying everywhere without any video lag.  Conan will be my real test.

Did I mention the cooler tower is a pain in the ass?  Either you install the sink while the fan is off and have to mess with slotting the fan while the sink is touching the processor (and likely to pop those stupid clips), or you have to contort your thumbs in wierd angles if you have the fan on when you install.  I have long, thin fingers and it was difficult.  But icy cold.

The power supply is the only real noise-maker.  Fry's price selection of 550/600 W supplies was limited.  It's not as bad as the New Egg reviews make out, but a super-quiet supply would make this system barely noticable.

My only question: How important is it to get a power supply with an 8-pin instead of 4-pin CPU power lead?  With the Q9300 using a lot less power than the previous generation of chips and the fact that it can be done like this I'm guessing I'm okay.  I'm just thinking about the long term.  Then I could get a quiet power supply and use the old one as a backup.

I can't answer your question about 8 pin vs 4 pin. I presume you're refering to the 4 pin socket on most motherboards. I didn't know they had 8 pin ones. Is that for dual socket motherboards?

Grats on the new build, it looks very very sweet.

The thought of a woman building her own computer makes my nerd heart tingle.  Why are all the good ones gay? :awesome_for_real:

The 8-pin aux power connector is meant for "workstation" and server motherboards -- i.e. EPS, not ATX motherboards. You can get power supplies that support both the 4-pin and 8-pin configurations (i.e a "4+4" connector) if for some reason you think you might want an EPS motherboard in the future (say you want a dual socket, 8-core rendering box) or you can get adapters (4-pin to 8-pin and vice versa) which sometimes work depending on the PS.

E.g. one of my home machines is using a Tyan server motherboard but it's powered by an ATX power supply using this adapter (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812145008) (no longer carried by Newegg). The docs implied the motherboard would work with the regular 4-pin ATX connector but they were wrong which is why I didn't just get an EPS power supply to being with.

Okie, thanks.  Mine's docs said it would be a really good idea to use one.  Things seem good, and with what you've said, I'm not going to worry about it.

I've got a great little machine now. :heart:

What do you all think of these motherboards?  I will probably just drop in one 9800GTX from EVGA, so just need a solid motherboard to run it.

EVGA's (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16813188024)
ASUS's (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131219)
Intel's (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121059)
and after reading up on Lantyssa's rig,
ABIT's (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813127030)

I'm really nervous about building my own, I mean I can follow directions and have a steady hand, but it just doesn't seem the same as beating on my old jeep with hand/power tools, or sewing up someone's cut.  Are any of the heatsink/fan combo's pretty easy for a beginner?

Unless you're going to be overclocking, you don't need to buy a CPU heatsink and fan, since they come with their own.

Hmm. I like the Abit because it has eSATA ports on the back, but you wouldn't be able to do SLI with it. Other than that, they are all pretty much the same. I haven't used EVGA or Intel mobos, but I like both Asus and Abit. The EVGA is the only one with the Nvidia chipset, so if you are interested in SLI that would probably be the one to go with. Otherwise, any of those would work fine.

As far as putting stuff together, it's realllly easy. You CPU will come with it's own heatsink/fan that will clip into the mobo on top of the processor. If you read the instructions you'll find it's pretty simple - just make sure you read them and get the CPU chip in the right way (though I think it's hard to do it wrong now days).

The biggest problem you will have is making sure your power supply has the right connectors and that you have enough room in your case with the layout of the mobo. (For example, I had to move my hard drives around to fit this monster of a 8800GT because it's so damn long).

The stock Intel cooler is quiet but only does an adequate job of keeping your CPU cool. A top notch CPU cooler can lower your CPU temps by 10C - 20C+ compared to the stock cooler.

The EVGA 780i (and the XFX, dunno about others) cool the mosfets and MCP with a big heat spreader, the fan of which blows all that heat directly into the back of the primary video card.
EVGA says it's not a problem, but it was for me with an 8800gt. I switched to an x38 and have been quite happy.

If you really want the 780i, I'll sell you a slightly used one cheap.

The Intel board is using an older chipset, you probably don't want that one.

The Zalman 9500/9700s are very easy to install. They use screws to attach the clip rather than using "latch-on" clips which always seem to require ridiculous amounts of force to attach on. I replaced a Ninja Scythe heat sink in one of my machines with a Zalman (which I also use in my main machine) because it felt like it was warping the motherboard -- that's how much force the clip was exerting on the heatsink bracket after I managed to get it on with much struggle. The Zalman's however are no longer at or near the top in terms of cooling and quietness.

Well, it's been a little over a week now, and I'm happy to report that things seem to be running mostly smoothly.  Earlier today I removed the dominator fans that Corsair shipped with this memory.  The novelty of it was intriguing, but the incessant whine and the accompanying vibrations within the case were just too much.  The rig is much quieter now, and I'm going to go with the assumption that those small fans were largely superfluous.

I'm also beginning to wonder if I got a good seating on the heatsink when I installed it.  SpeedFan is giving me about 105F for each core diode and 82F for the cpu diode.  These are probably livable, and I doubt if I'll bother to remount unless things get really out of hand.

What are the temps when you run cpuburn on each core? Which heatsink are you using?

My stock CPU cooler keeps the CPU at 28 C at idle, 36 C at continuous heavy load.  I'm not OCing or anything fancy. Seems adequate to me.

Do you have a 65W CPU?

Its a 6750 C2D. Not sure on wattage.

Nah, 19 inch. Link in the thread, page one or two i think.

Also note the Abit, while being the cheapest, is a PCIe x16 version 1.0a and not a 2.0 board.  The SATA connectors are on the side, which makes it a little tight in my mid-size tower.  After flashing the BIOS I'm very happy with it though.  The system has been stable all weekend.

That's a 65W model. Run this program and tell us the temps it's reporting:

http://www.alcpu.com/CoreTemp/

I'm still suspicious that your temps are being underreported.

A fair question.  I haven't tried cpuburn yet, partially for fear that if the sink isn't making good contact with the cpu, the program will do what its name suggests; but also because I can't seem to figure out which version to use.  Is there one that lets you load cores individually?

Your CPU should shut itself down if things get too hot. I normally just run two copies and then manually set the affinity in the task manager. This is the version I use:

http://users.bigpond.net.au/cpuburn/

That's a nice little program.

What are good temperatures for these core values?  I'm curious about my Q9300 specifically, but also processors in general.

Here's what I plan on ordering in the next few days (Newegg Wish List (https://secure.newegg.com/NewVersion/Wishlist/PublicWishDetail.asp?WishListNumber=5166786&WishListTitle=Cal%27s+June+Build+List)):

Case: Antec Solo (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16811129018) ($89)
Mobo: Asus P5NT (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813131173) ($249)
CPU: Intel C2D E8400 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16819115037) ($195)
CPU Heatsink/Fan: Xigmatek HDT-S1283 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16835233003) ($37)
RAM: Kingston HyperX 2x2GB DDR2-800 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16820104001) ($100)
PSU: Antec Neo Power 500 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817103940) ($75)
HDD: WD GreenPower 1TB (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16822136151) ($200)
GPU: Asus EN8800GTS (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16814121218) ($240)
Sound Card: Creative SB X-Fi XtremeGamer (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16829102006) ($91)
DVD Burner: Pioneer DVR-215DBK (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16827129020) ($31)
LCD: ViewSonic VG2230wm 22" (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16824116060) ($290)
KB: Logitech G11 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16823126009) ($59)
OS: Vista 64bit Ultimate for System Builders (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16832116215) ($170)

Subtotal: $1,828

To say the least, it's been a while, although this thread (along with HardOCP and SPCR oddly enough) has been immensely helpful.  Anything look plain out-of-place in the above set-up?

That actually was the program I was using, along with Speed Fan. That said, ambient temperature of the room I'm in affects this idle temperature. Right now, after a moderately hot day, with room temp being around 78 degrees, the core temps reported are 31 and 31. This morning when I posted, with the room temp being down in the high 60s, the temp was as reported earlier.

SpeedFan, the other tool I use, has the temp being higher.

AOC is running and I'm at 44/43/54/54 across my cores if you're wondering.

It varies greatly depending on the CPU, cooling, and ambient internal case temperature. As a very rough rule of thumb with today's Intel dual-core CPUs something around 30°C idle and 45°C load is typical. The quads, though, typically run hotter as you might imagine.

If you are worried about temps what you need to do is find out what the max temp is for your CPU (the point at which it'll shut itself off) and then work backwards from there. E.g. if you are running at 5°C lower than the shutdown point at max load that's cutting it way too close since a rise in internal room temperature or an extra load on your GPU (both of which might raise your internal ambient case temp) could cause your machine to shutdown.

For your CPU you can get the datasheet from here:

http://download.intel.com/design/processor/datashts/318726.pdf

If you flip to the thermal section you can check the temp table for your CPU and it shows 71.4°C as the max Tc temperature at max thermal dissipation (page 79). At the extreme end of things your CPU will shutdown at approx 20°C above the max Tc. So something close to 90°C is really bad news. Ideally you should be well below that and your CPU may in fact start throttling itself if it gets above max Tc so really you want to be below 70°C.

Your CPU is one of the lower power quads (95W TDP) so I would say something around 35°C idle and 55°C load is fine. If you are getting above 60°C under load you might want to check your cooling setup.

After a 30min run on both cores, they were running 57C while ambient inside the case was 33.9C.  I think I have to assume that there's a contact issue, but as I'm not OCing, I wonder if it'd be worthwhile it to re-seat that damn Tuniq.

What does this program tell you?:

http://www.techpowerup.com/realtemp/

Apparently there are issues with temperature reporting with some of the new 45nm CPUs.

It's possible there's a contact issue if the base of the heatsink or the heat spreader isn't flat or the heatsink base is not smooth enough. Or you may have used too much/too little thermal paste. Or everything could just be "working as intended". 57°C is not that hot.

Edit: actually the temp reporting problems apply to the 65nm Intel CPUs as well:

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/intel/showdoc.aspx?i=3251&p=4

My numbers are much better with that Real Temp program.  34°C/36°C/32°C/29°C at idle.

36C at idle for me with Real Temp, which is something like 5C lower than SpeedFan temps.  I'll live with it.  Like you said, 57C really isn't all that hot, and the system has flawlessly run everything I've thrown at it.  When it stops doing that, then I'll get concerned.

Ya, that RealTemp program had my CPU temps at 34 idle, whereas Core Temp is reporting them at 25 C idle (its in the 50s this morning). Unfortunately, the burn in program doesn't run on my box, probably a Vista thing.

You could try a 64-bit version of Prime95:

http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=9779

I'm running Vista Ultimate and it worked fine.  Which "flavor" are you on?

Core Temp is exactly 10° higher on all processors for me.

I'm on Enterprise, but I think that shouldn't matter. The way it doesn't work for me is that when I launch it, it asks for a time span in hours and minutes, and when I put numbers in those fields and hit 'start', it just doesn't do nutin at all. I tried doing a 'run as administrator' on it, but that didn't change anything either.

One of my hard drives died and I had to yank it.  Replacement is on the way.  Anyway, I love my case but it has a few flaws.  Actually its one flaw is that it is only 15.5 inches deep and getting the hard drives out without decabling the mainboard is a massive pain in the cock.  I looked into the Silverstones and the TJ-03 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811163015) looks like what I want, but $280 is a stiff bill.  My two main criteria for a case are only that it be able to hold six 3.5" hard drives and a 5.25" DVD drive, and that I be able to get to the guts easily.  Less critically, I want one that can hold two PSUs since my OCZ GXS700 isn't being strained at the moment.  I'd also like to not spend $280 on it.  That sideways mount in the TJ-10 (for example) isn't too much worse that what I have already but I'm somewhat suspicious of it.

What I'm probably going to do is just get some rails and mount my 3.5" drives in the 5.25" bays, some of them anyway since I only have four open.  In the future I might just cut a hole in the front of the case so I can get the hard drives out frontally.

I should fucking design computer cases.

I don't understand this. Why do you want an extra PSU if your current one isn't maxed out yet?

I have a Core 2 Duo 6750 with a stock cooler and I'm getting 34/32 at idle on realtemp. Coretemp shows 36/40. I think coretemp is off though, I ran a program and it spiked temp almost instantly to the high 40s where realtemp showed the cpu kicking up the speed and a slow more normal increase in temp. I was in the case a few weeks ago and honestly, it needs to have the fans and such blown out, so it probably could be lower if I bothered. I can't remember the last time I used anything but a stock ran.

Yeg, I like my case, although it may not work for your needs.  Cooler Master Mystique (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16811119129)

It's cheap.  It has six 3.5" bays and four 5.25" bays.  It won't hold two PSUs.  Your motherboard size will determine how well things fit.  If it uses all the ATX screws it may be a tight fit if any of your connectors are on the side.  It's aluminum, but mine seems to not have any noise problems.

I'm not sure why you're suspicious of the sideways mount.  I only have one issue with it: unless I'm doing something wrong(I probably am), the cabling just looks ugly.  I guess it might be a pain to remove an entire cage in order to swap out just one drive, but I would've had to do that with my old regular-style mount anyway.

On the upside, I can tell you that spending that much on a case buys you a ton of quality.  I've got no regrets about my purchase.

The problem with the sideways drive cages is they block a tremendous amount of airflow. If the cables look ugly put them in the other way.

If anyone was looking to upgrade and doesn't mind buying open box parts, a 512MB 8800GT can be had for as cheap as I've ever seen them ($140) here (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121224R).

Is it really that they're sideways, or that they're in a cage of a certain type that blocks flow? I ask because my Antec Lanboy box has sideways oriented slots for the drives, but the spacing between the drives is pretty good, better, in fact, than the cage for my P180b. Here's what I mean:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2019/2437018917_78ca9165ac_b.jpg)

It's not the spacing between drives that's the issue it's the fact that the side of the cage where you typically put the screws through have smaller cutouts for airflow from the front of the case like so:

(http://pandadesigns.com/f13/antec_sonata_cage.jpg)

This is from the Antec Sonata III. There are some cutouts above each drive platform but there's still alot of metal blocking airflow over the drives.

When the cage is in the normal direction the only blockage is from the drives themselves.

I agree that for someone using only one or two hard drives, this layout doesn't make sense. However, the width of the metal blocking the airflow is only slightly wider than the drives themselves, no matter which way they're facing. Since I'm actually using all 4 drive trays, the trade off seems slight.

I'm trading off heat dissapation across more metal against having the front fan cool the hard drives directly, but the ease of access outweighs the reduction in circulation. Then again, I'm no OC'er and I live in a temperate clime, so heat issues aren't that paramount.

It's inevitable.  Also I like the geekiness of it.  The only reason the 700W OCZ is not being strained now is because my mobo only has one IDE port, so my DVD-RW and 8mm tape have been pulled.  With the new 500GB disk I just put in I have just over a terabyte now and should not need storage for a little while longer, but I plan to run the hard drive fans (since I suspect the previous disk died a heat death, I bought three HD HSF... should have bought four but I've been somewhat scatterbrained lately) on the 480W Enermax I have installed.  Who knows what else I might plug in there, but it's an option.  I like options.

Yegolev, have you made an estimate of your power useage? I ask because unless you're doing some really wild stuff, power requirements these days are less than in times past. Check out http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp to see what you need.

Let us know if you find a case that will support two standard PSUs. I've heard of redundant PSUs on server motherboards, but not one that'll hold two.

I've finally had a chance to push my system.  It really is a dream.  I was simply going for a quality build where I wouldn't allow myself to choose low-end components, but I seem to have ended up with a great system.  I'm very, very happy with it.

I definately like my cooling.  After running Conan for eight hours, Real Temp showed my maximums on all four cores as 52°/46°/46°/42°.  Core 0 is always the hot one and Core 3 the cool one, so at a guess 0 is on the bottom and 3 is closest to the heat sink.

With almost all my graphics options maxed  (HQ distance is 50%, View Distance is 2800 m, Anti-aliasing is 4x; everything else maxed) Tortage runs 35-40 FPS, and enclosed spaces such as the Undertombs are 100+ FPS.

The only problem I'm having is that sometimes the machine crashes while XP is booting.  The error code resolves to what MS thinks is the BIOS getting incorrect processor information.  While I don't fully trust Microsoft's diagnosis, Abit is still working on compatability issues with quad processors on this board, so it's a possibility.  The current revision is the first to really support them.

I bought the same MB as you and I have to say I am extremely happy with it.  It is easily the best documented MB I have ever purchased, the onboard LED display of POST codes is pure geek nirvana.

The only real difference between our two systems is that I got an E8400 rather than the quad core and the G92 8800 GTS rather than the GT.  This was an excellent time to do an upgrade.  Costs are low, parts are mature and reliable and performance gains are HUEG.

No.  I have, in fact, consciously gone far overboard.  It was a better plan before I found that not-ridiculously-priced 700W unit.  As it is, using a 480W PSU to drive two 80mm fans is a bit overboard.


Hold my beer and watch this (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa181/Yegolev/xp4.jpg).  That was before my last hardware upgrade, but you see where the PSU would go.  I don't have a pic of the aftermath, but I'll get one up soon.

So is that a gutted gateway super tower circa 1993?  :grin:

Antec.  Circa 1997.  It's a fucking champ, but all champs eventually contract some horrible disease and die.

I find myself distracted by the idea of turning a digital camera into an infrared camera (http://geektechnique.org/index.php?id=254)... so the pics of the new rig might take a bit longer than I thought.

My P4 will no longer sustain my gaming needs. 

This list is based on Tomshardwares March mid-range build. (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/system-builder-marathon,1795.html) 

Notable differences: I will supply a Raptor HD and the LCD, but suffer with getting Vista and a new KB \ mouse combo.  I used a different mobo since the recommended one was out of stock and this one apparently has legacy support. 

Where am I wrong and what bottlenecks lie within - I hail from the P4 era so be kind

Edit: For anyone who looks for advice here: In italics below are reasons why this was a poorly researched rig.  Thanks to all who pointed in better directions.

$119.99  Antec Nine Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16811129021l)
This case may not have the space to support SLI because of the PSU placement at the bottom.  Cooling is important, so in replacing this case I chose one with several 120mm fans for quiet, efficient cooling.

$119.99  ASUS P5N-E SLI LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 650i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813131142)
This mobo is bottom of the line and supports legacy components.  Though I'd like to have that feature, I should be building this machine for future upgrades.

$419.98  EVGA 640-P2-N829-AR GeForce 8800GTS SSC 640MB 320-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail X2 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16814130317)
Why buy two older video cards when buying one top of the line now and doing SLI later makes more sense.

$169.99  Thermaltake W0116RU 750W Complies with ATX 12V 2.2 & EPS 12V version Power Supply - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817153038)

$254.99  Intel Core 2 Quad Q6700 Kentsfield 2.66GHz LGA 775 95W Quad-Core Processor Model HH80562PH0678MK - OEM (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16819115053)
The 45nm quad core chips cost a bit more for much improved performance.

$87.98  A-DATA 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model ADQVE1A16K - Retail X2 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16820211066)
1GB sticks on a modern motherboard do not leave room for upgrades.  I also upgraded a notch in RAM speed.

$34.99  Microsoft 4GC-00002 OEM Silver/Black Wireless Ergonomics Laser Desktop 4000 Mouse Included - OEM (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16823109048)
Don't buy what you have.

$94.99  Microsoft Windows Vista 64-Bit Home Premium for System Builders Single Pack DVD - OEM (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16832116204)
What the fuck?  I was drunk and Vista was what I woke up to this morning.  This is a gaming machine, and I have a spare XP install.

$25.99  COOLER MASTER RR-CCH-L9U1-GP 92mm Hyper TX2 CPU Cooler - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16835103031)
_________
$1,328.89

For $100 more, I bought a machine that is faster, has room to upgrade without replacing these components and will be cool and quiet.  Hopefully.

Your build is way off.

If you're going to spend $1000+, go with a 45nm Processor. On top of that, there's no reason to spend $90 on 2GB of DDR2-800. You should be able to get nearly 4GB for $90-100.

Also, You either want a pair of 8800GT 512 or a 9800GTX if you're spending that kind of scracth on a graphics card.

Honestly, short of a powersupply, which you've managed to just not list, and Vista, you've butchered a modern build.

I don't like the looks of that cooler. It looks like it's using a custom fan design which means when it dies you are screwed. It's also 92 mm meaning it's louder than 120 mm fans that can move the same amount of air, other things being equal.

I've hated Thermaltake products since their "golden orb" days (cheap flashy looking products that perform like crap) and I personally avoid them. If you do get it make sure the cables are long enough to handle the non-standard layout of the Antec case.

The chipset on that motherboard looks like it's just passively cooled. If you plan on OC'ing you might want a MB with a more robust cooling system.

The equivalent 45 nm Quad Core CPU is $100 more expensive. He can get a gimpier (less cache) and slower 45 nm Quad Core for about the same as his.

I missed that he wanted an SLI setup in which case he has the wrong motherboard too since that one only supports dual x8 slots instead of dual x16 slots.

Grand Design, how much do you want to spend, just give us a number. ^_^

Good stuff.  (Except the obligatory kidney shot from schild.)

Seriously, I don't mind spending more money, but this was based on the mid-range build from two months ago.

I am not at all sold on SLI, but my thinking was to go all out as long as I'm upgrading to this decade.


I'll spend over 2K but it means waiting another paycycle.  Which is not really a problem.

Edit: For schild, that is 4 gigs, 2 video cards and a 750 psu.  And ... Vista.

Isn't the 650i chipset a bit long in the tooth by now? To be honest I haven't followed nvidia chipsets, but I thought we were at least into the 700 series by now.

I second Schild's advice on upgrading to a 45 nm chip rather than a 65. I have a 65, and its great, but these 45s are that much faster that its worth the price difference.

My Q9450 spanks everything except the new and impossible to find Q9550. I'm glad the money was spent.

I'll go through this tomorrow some time. Or Rattran will see it.

The peoples in this thread know more then I but a few thoughts.

I would recommend skipping SLI. Everything I have read says it's a waste of money.  Just buy one good video card.
Tip: From what I have read the newer 512mb versions are the ones you want. Not the old 640/320mb versions.
Also get some cheap RAM from from crucial or corsair. I have never had a problem with crucial RAM, every other brand has failed me sooner or later. And everyone likes corsair RAM IIRC.
Unless you plan to overclock your CPU stock cooling is adequate. Just get a non OEM CPU.
And Vista? Yuck.

Crucial or Kingston RAM really. People like Corsair but it's not worth it these days. I'm dropping 4GB of Crucial Ballistix in soon. The price is right ($100 for 4GB) and the heat sync should work fine.

Also, I wouldn't even go with an 8800GTS. I'd either get an 8800GT/512 (and upgrade later) or get the 9800GTX (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130350).

For the mobo, I use the P5KC, either way, go with P35 or X38. Don't get a new Nvidia board or X48. If you want to stay with DD2 right now and don't plan on going SLI, the P5KC has DDR3 slots you can upgrade into later.

If I were spending up to $2k, I'd get the Q9450 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115042&Tpk=Q9450) or the new Q9550 - which I can't even link to because Newegg doesn't have it and I'm a lazy bastard. Not sure it's worth the price jump though. $150 for 133 more Mhz and basically nothing else? Yea, f that.

Also, having looked into the Xonar DX (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829132006) I'd recommend that over a Creative card. Don't use onboard sound.

Also, falling under the "willing to spend money category" - I would get a nicer case just because I think Antecs are shoddy compared to Zalman. I plan on using my Zalman for years through multiple computers unless something magical about air flow is found. If you want a tower, I'd recommend this, even though it says Fatality on it (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811235004). I dont' do towers anymore though. Anyone who says Antecs are built as heavy and seriously as Zalmans are kidding themselves. It's like the difference between Integra and Sony in the consumer home theatre arena (hint, Integra whoops the shit out of Sony and costs roughly the same multiple (3x more, heh). Width is sort of funky though, so you'll have to measure heat syncs and such before buying aftermarket stuff. Right now I'm stuck with an amazing heat sync on my graphics card that keeps me from being able to put the lid on my computer.

Also, go with this Seasonic 700w (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151031) instead of the Thermaltake. I'm running 2 Seasonics now (well, there's 3 in the house - they make the Corsair stuff also) and they're awesome.

Uhmmm. Yea. I'm sure Rattran will fill in the rest if he notices.

Vista - You don't have to twist my arm not to get it.  I'll retire my file server and use its XP license.
SLI - I completely agree with dropping the SLI in favor of a better card.  Upgrade to SLI as needed.
That case - I can't bring myself to get a case that has FATALITY!!1! written all over it.  Also, no blowhole and the potential of running it with the door open is a deal killer.  That Antec case has the fans that I'm looking for.
CPU & mobo - I see your point. I went for a bit more robust mobo.  I almost downgraded to the 2.5, but when I saw the final price, it would have been silly not to get it.  Question - can I rely on the stock fan?  I think I know the answer to this.
RAM - DDR3.

I'll provide the sound card \ 5.1 - that will just be moved from my current system, as well as the dvd and raptor drive, keyboard etc. All of those components are less than a year old.

Wishlist V2:

$119.99 Antec Nine Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16811129021)

$299.99 ASUS P5E3 Deluxe/WiFi-AP LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813131218)

$354.99 Intel Core 2 Quad Q9450 Yorkfield 2.66GHz LGA 775 95W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80569Q9450 - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16819115042)
   
$248.00 CORSAIR 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model TWIN3X2048-1333C9 - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16820145183)
   
$299.99 EVGA 512-P3-N871-AR GeForce 9800 GTX(G92) 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16814130339)
   
$179.99 SeaSonic M12 SS-700HM ATX12V / EPS12V 700W Power Supply - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16817151031)

__________
$1,502.95


Which is not much more than the last build.

I like Antec cases, myself. Have had two, both still in use. They aren't omgwtf awsome, but they have the basics down. That case actually does look pretty amazingly great, with the two 120s in the front, one in the back, and a big blow hole one. It looks like a winner and if I were in the market for one myself, I'd have to consider it. Then again, reading reviews of people who own one is a must.  Reports are that the bottom placement of the PSU might hinder dual video cards. Also, it gathers dust very quickly, since the front fans do not accept any filters. If you live in a dusty environment, this is a pretty significant consideration.

Having had to take the Dremel to cases to fit fans in the past, I like this case a lot.

Unfortunately, I see the reviews about the low lying PSU.  I had not considered that my current PSU, for example, has a huge intake on the bottom*, which would not work for this case.  The search continues.

As for dust, I'm pretty much on a schedule with dusting out the case and fans.  I did it last weekend, in fact.

Edit:  *Yeah, I'm that idiot who failed the part of the SAT where you have to envision objects in different positions.  Otherwise I would have immediately realized that I could just turn the PSU over.

About a month to go before I make the purchase to upgrade our two computers:

ABIT IP35 Pro LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16813127030)  $179.99

EVGA 512-P3-N871-AR GeForce 9800 GTX(G92) 512MB 256-bit (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16814130339)  $299.99

PC Power & Cooling S75QB 750W (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16817703009)  $149.99

Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16819115037)  $194.99

CORSAIR XMS2 DHX 4GB (2 x 2GB) (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16820145194)  $144.00

SAMSUNG floppy drive (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16821103203) $6.99

Western Digital Raptor WD1500ADFD 150GB 10000 RPM (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16822136012) $169.99

Pioneer Black 20X DVD burner (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16827129018) $29.99

ASUS Xonar DX 7.1 Channels PCI Express Interface Sound Card (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16829132006) $99.00

Coolmaster Heatsink & Fan Hyper TX2 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16835103031) $25.99

Windows Vista Home x64 (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16832116488) $99.00

ESET Anitvirus (http://www.newegg.com/product/product.aspx?item=N82E16832114005) $39.99

Both computers are in a APEVIA X-Navigator (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811144089), so hopefully we can reuse those, the heavier powersupply might mean getting an Antec or Coolmaster case that has the powersupply on the bottom.  Basically double everything except the hard drive (I have one in my rig allready).  I could reuse the windows XP Pro x64 that both rigs use right now too.  I've had shitty luck with powersupplies and ram in the past.  I could reuse the powersupply in my case (620 watt Enermax Liberty), but I'm thinking just to do it right from the get go.  I've had mushkin that I've bought that failed three times (three diffrent shipments) on install, so I'm leary of them.

I'm thinking the dual-core processor, it seems like a lot of bang for the buck, and the board should let me be able to upgrade later on if I want a quad-core.  I'm not doing the dual-graphic cards either, so a big freaking card is what I'm after.  The hard drive for him might be the bigger WD, either the 1 TB, 750 GB (both are slower...), or just slap in another Raptor as needed (or wait for the velicoraptor to drop in price).  I'm thinking that because he loves to make and record his saxaphone and other music, and all the other popcap games, and pictures, etc...that tends to end up on his computer.  As far as a heat sink & fan combo, I wanted something that is reliable and easy to install.  I'm going to building these solo, so easy to start up and install would be a plus.

I have an Antec 900 right behind me. Good case, overwide, overloud. The bottom psu can be put in so the intake faces up, exhausting the case a bit more. It'll fit the biggest cooling stuff, though the Thermalright Ultra 120 extreme precludes using a side panel fan. The 200mm fan has a low level hum, even on a low setting, which is why I retired the case. A niggling problem, but it was driving me nuts.
I'm using a Coolermaster Cosmos 1000 case right now. Huge, heavy, and quiet. Not a case you'd ever want to move, despite the handles on the top.


Sli just isn't worth the cost currently, I'd go for a x38/x48 with a 9800gtx instead. 2x2gb memory chips gives you some space for upgrading to 8gb if you do go with vista x64 in the future. If you're going ddr3, go x48. Processor either a fast 8xxx or whatever quad you can afford. The noctua cooler is getting good reviews, as are a whole slew of direct heatpipe coolers. If you're not planning on oc'ing at all, the intel stock cooler does an acceptable job.
PP&C still makes nice power supplies, OCZ bought them but haven't screwed them up yet.

And I know I'll be stoned for heresy with this, but the Raptors aren't worth the price for the little extra speed. 7 times the $/gb isn't worth it for the modest performance boost.


<edit> a missing n't changes the meaning

With all the posts here, i'm wondering if i bought a good computer or not. lol. I didn't spend near as much as any of you, and i didn't put near as much thought into it. I know i was going for a budget machine... but i'm looking at numbers (that confuse me) in others postings and seeing some of the same numbers for various hardware.

The stock cooler on my Q9450 is just fine.

That case may say Fatality on it, but it probably has better airflow than the Antec. I don't know why people like Antec so much. As far as I can tell, they're just big boxes that were neither engineered nor designed. They just slap a case around a steal box. There's a Zalman without Fatality on it with some minor design changes but it's $100 more. They tend to charge $350 right when a case comes out and the Fatality one is from last year. There may be a non-branded fatality version that Newegg doesn't carry.

Here's the rub though - I've been searching for a company that has the build quality that Zalman does and god help me I can't find one. They charge way too much (imo) but sometimes it's just worth it, particularly when there isn't an alternative (someone help me!)

Also, yea, Raptor's aren't worth the extra money. The new WDs are amazing and the Samsung Spinpoints are supposedly just monstrous (but I haven't like the reliability reviews on them, I hear they're getting better though).

As for the RAM, don't get DDR3. Upgrade later. Get 4GB (or 2GB) of DDR2 800. 4GB for $100 is just too good a deal to pass up and the difference with DDR3 at the moment will be.. well... yea. It's just too pricey imo. Though I almost made the jump the other night before Rattran said something and I looked up a few benchmarks.

Schild, what temps are your cores operating at now?  Are they still around 45 C?

My E8400 cores are right around there at idle with the stock cooler and although it's not OMG hot it seems a little warmish for idle.  Though, my core temps don't budge from 45 C even playing AoC for 4 hours at max settings so maybe I shouldn't worry about it.

My two P4s generate so much noise, I think that I'm going to take your advice, spend the extra hundred and get that behemoth.  I'm afraid to see what the shipping cost will be.  I'll take another look at the F4T4L!TY!1!! case since I'm not installing any custom fans and I'd rather spend the money to have a quiet case.  God, what year is it?  1995 and we're all still playing MKII?  Fatality?  Seriously.  Maybe I can cover it up with bondo.


Done. 


Done.  This is the kind of obvious mistake I tend to make.  4x1 upgraded to 2x2 of DDR2 1066.  Slightly more than the 800, but I want to maximize what I can.


I really, really like the CPU schild pointed out; the 12mb L2 especially.  Unfortunately, Newegg seems to only have them for brief moments of random interval, so Tigerdirect will supply it.  I have no plans to overclock, and with today's processors I just don't see the need.  I don't have a burning desire to take my new toy to the breaking point to get an extra 5 fps that the human eye can't even detect.  Not that there's anything wrong with overclocking, I'm just not the type.


The Raptor was a buy at a local store when I was in a pinch and that was the only fast drive they carried.  I paid the double premium of the Raptor and the local computer store.  Damn my impatience, but I love my Raptor.

Thanks for the advice, everyone.  I'll throw up a final build before I click buy.

$299.99 ASUS P5E3 Deluxe/WiFi-AP LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131218)

$349.99 Intel Core 2 Quad Q9450 Yorkfield 2.66GHz LGA 775 95W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80569Q9450 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115042)

$299.99 EVGA 512-P3-N871-AR GeForce 9800 GTX(G92) 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130339)

$194.99 Patriot Extreme Performance 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model PDC34G1333ELK (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220305)

$199.99 COOLER MASTER COSMOS 1000 RC-1000-KSN1-GP Black/ Silver Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119138)

$179.99 SeaSonic M12 SS-700HM ATX12V / EPS12V 700W Power Supply (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151031)
_________
$1,524.94

Without the case, I could overnight it at a reasonable price.  Tempting.

I'll wait a couple of hours in case anyone wants to jump in and slap my hand away from the buy button.

Wow. I never knew how well built that case was. I know what my next computer is going in (since I don't like the word fatality on a case either).

That's a good box. Mushkin RAM can be a little expensive, but it's really really nice. Also, you'll fucking love the Q9450.

Pull that trigger. And you don't need rounded power cables, Seasonic packs a whole shitload of them in.

Enjoy!

The Mushkin RAM was the only 2G at 1066, and I'd like not to have the bare minimum speed.

The case is nice and very heavy - and appears to be quiet.  I really like the double 120 blowholes - I'm surprised that isn't used more often.

I'm about to pull the trigger - just going over everything in my head for the fiftieth time because I know I forgot something.

Edit: And I love that CPU.  That is a work of art - I've watched it drop off of my buy list twice today because Newegg sold out.

Why not just remove/replace that fan if it was bothering you so much?

I fucked up and bought DDR2 RAM for a DDR3 mobo. 

Fixed the rig build (+$50) and its on the way.

If anyone need 4 gigs of DDR2 1066 RAM, let me know.  Otherwise I'll test Newegg's return policy.

Because it gave me an excuse to buy a new case, and I can sell the 900 with contents to my boss. I'd picked it up on a whim at Fry's for ~$50AR I'm much happier with the cosmos, though there's a newer version (1010 I think)

A friend of mine got this case for a new build I just helped him with:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129021

I like the power supply on the bottom and there's plenty of room for these long ass 8800 video cards. The huge fan on top is also awesome, it's rpm is like 200 but it moves ton of air up and out.

Edit: And I think it's a ton quieter than the thermaltake case I have with 6 built-in smaller fans and probably cools it better.

It's kind of hot in the house right now, but they're at 38/38/36/44.

I just closed AoC after 8 hours.

A CPU cools off quickly when not under load. You need a temp tracking program that can keep a log to actually know how hot the cores are getting when playing the game.

Which brings us to the Real Temp program you mentioned earlier, as it has current, min, and max.

Thanks for pointing me to RealTemp.  I was using CoreTemp and it's apparently off by 8 or 9 degrees at idle because RealTemp reports 36ish where CoreTemp was reporting 44/45.

Update

Everything except for the CPU arrived a day early (go go Newegg), giving me the chance to setup the machine without rushing.  The Coolermaster case is a sight to behold.  It is big, but not huge - it doesn't fit under my desk, and if I removed the drive bays, I could place my P4 case inside of it.  There is so much room to work with inside of this thing, I am forever spoiled.  But that room is needed, especially if I go SLI.  Above that, it is silent.  The first time I turned it on, I started cursing because I thought I had forgotten to plug in the PSU.  Nope, its that quiet.  From a gaming perspective, I can honestly say that I now hear things in games that were drowned out by the P4's ambient noise.  That was unexpected.  I hate to go on about a damned case, but every time I thought I found something wrong with it, I was wrong.  The PSU is in the bottom - but there is still room for two, even three graphics cards.  And, the heat from the PSU never gets into the case because of this placement.  The PSU 12v connector barely reaches the motherboard plug - then I found the extension that came with it.  I had to supply my own screws - then I found the hidden stash of more screws of every imaginable shape than I could use building three machines.  I love this case.  And, schild was spot on with the PSU suggestion - more cables and adapters than I could use.

I don't need to say anything about the CPU - it is a beast.  I do hate the Intel fan and I am replacing it asap.  It 'clicks' into the motherboard very unconvincingly.  I took it out twice because it felt like nothing had 'clicked.'

The motherboard has more features than I will ever use.  Apparently you can boot it up as a webserver without loading the OS, making it safe to browse for porn on the most dubious of foreign sites without the risk of malware getting onto the hard disk.

The 9800.  I can't stop it.  In Conan, I have everything turned on with great fps.  AoC crippled my P4, sending me into Vanguard flashbacks.  I'm a sucker for Total War, and the huge battles with all the bells and whistles turned on rarely drop below the 60 fps ceiling.  CoD4 obviously runs like a dream, but it did well on the P4 too.  Somebody suggest a game to throw at this thing and I'll pick it up when I've replenished my funds.  It does extremely well with Fraps turned on in Eve, which was a nagging problem I had with the P4.

So, what's wrong with it?  Its too new.  I had to flash and update the BIOS to get it to see the CPU.  It locks up at random - I'm guessing related to bad RAM or Nvidia's drivers.  I've run it for ten minutes before it freezes and for five hours before it freezes.  Its annoying, but updating to the latest drivers as opposed to EVGA's seemed to improve its run time.

All in all, a great upgrade for a reasonable price.  Thanks for all of the advice.

And  :drill:

Great news on the case. I'm in the market for one, myself, and that case looked pretty intimidating, with its VGA air-duct and all. Glad to hear that it seems user-friendly. Does it have a front fan, or just that bottom fan?

Also, those hard locks you talk about sound like maybe there's a physical connection or seating problem, perhaps with a connector somewhere, or, maybe with the CPU itself (my factory intel heatsink and fan clicked in perfectly, with just the right amount of pressure to convince me the heatplate was making contact with the CPU). Don't get me wrong, I think an aftermarket CPU fan is a great idea, especially if you like to push the machine a bit more than the ordinary user.

If making sure the connections are good doesn't fix the issue, I would run a benchmarking tool of some sort, some form of burn-in software, many of which are available for free on the internets. Nvidia's NTune has a decent one bundled into its freeware suite for CPU, memory, hard drives and gpu. Not sure how good it is, tho; I haven't played with mine yet.

Oh, I also love Medieval Total War cranked on the high settings. It makes a dramatic difference on how enjoyable that game is to be able to sweep through the battlefield with no graphics lag.

I have a $99 digital camera now.  Here are the pics of my rig in its current state with two functioning PSU, which I am perversely proud of.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa181/Yegolev/x1.jpg)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa181/Yegolev/x1-psu.jpg)

I think the first picture may make Trippy's heart sieze up.

Tie straps, man, tie straps!

No front intake, and it has solid metal on the inner lower front.  The bottom intake replaces it, and the PSU has its own intake.  Two on the top, one in the back, one on the bottom. 


I've done a cursory inspection, but a full re-seating is in order.  The case should make that task go quickly.


I loved the game before, but now I have a new appreciation.  A full-on flaming missile assault at night looks fantastic.  Empires cannot get here fast enough.

Wholly hell, and I thought my case was a bit messy and disorganized.

So does I take it the idea is that the bottom fan blows UP to blow air coming off the hard drives towards the top 2 fans, yes? Once you get your system stable, I wouldn't mind hearing back from you on your temperature readings under load, in particular, your vid card. Its an uncommon design to have a bottom fan, so I'm wondering about it.

I'm going to have nightmares of tentacle monsters trying to stick modular cables in places they don't belong. :cry2:

My computer works great and runs cool.  Crybabies.

My Cosmos 1000 Temps:

Ambient is 28C/82F for those playing along.

Temps taken with Real Temp 2.5 & CPUID hwmonitor

Q6600: 35/33/30/32 idle (45/44/41/42 load)
9800gtx: 42 idle (57 load)

4 drives, I have a fan in the alternate hd cooler spot in the case (sucks air past the drives) 31/35/35/37 (Hitatchi 250, Seagate 300&500, WD 500)

Top exhaust air reads 35C, rear 32C, psu exhaust 28C.

Ok, this time its my turn to ask for advice. Bottom line, I need a new case.

I currently have two cases. an Antec Lanboy, which is an all aluminum mid-tower with two 120mm fans front and back, and the famous Antec P180.

I'm currently using the Lanboy for my gaming rig, and I've run into a problem; with AoC, the vid card overheated with my standard low-spin 120 fans. I put in a new high spin 120 fan, and the video card is now in acceptable heat ranges, but the case has absolutely no noise reduction, and in fact probably telegraphs the sound even more.

I seriously don't want to go back to the P180. Its huge, its heavy, and has poor cable management. Its airflow abilities are pretty weak as well, despite being able to put in 5 120 fans into the box. If you stick to the standard 2 120 fans, the box becomes an oven. Over 2, and you're back to the original noise problem, which is what I bought the behemoth for to start with!

So, in sum, I would like to get a case with the following criteria in mind:

A) Must hold at least 4 hard drives for my raid5 set up. Must have decent airflow -around- these 4 drives. Trippy pointed out that this is a problem with many modern cases, and doing some investigation, he's right. Often the hard drive placement seems like an afterthought

B) Should do a decent job of noise reduction

C) Should not be a ginormous behemoth

D) Easy front CD/DVD drive access. We watch a lot of movies, and the nice closing panel on many boxes makes the cases look nicer, but they end up getting in the way and in my not so informed opinion, prevent decent front-panel airflow

E) Not a total nightmare to get around in. Cable management, with the ability to route cables behind the motherboard plate a plus

F) Last but not least, GOOD airflow.

Any input is much appreciated.

Good airflow is accomplished by a well thought out airflow plan not by air seeping in through the seams around your drive components. If anything air leaking though the seams in your case is a detriment.  A well thought out sealed case with air intake ducts will not only keep your components cooler but also reduce noise and dust. 

Then again you could just say fuck it go the cheap, noisy, dirty and ugly route to keeping your shit cool *coughyegolevcough*, which is still less efficent than a forced air path... 

The P180 cabling issue can be handled with zip ties, velcro cable ties/cable hook thingies that you can stick to parts of your case. Fan noise can be managed with quieter fans (Antec fans are noisy). Assuming mastering the art of "cablegami" doesn't appeal to you there are some other options though your 4 hard drive requirement is going to narrow your choices a lot unless you are willing to use one of the floppy drive bays or even a 5.25" bay.

The Antec Solo is a very quiet case design. It's basically an Antec Sonata without a bundled power supply. If you need another PS for some reason you could go with one of the Sonatas. The Solo has room for 4 hard drives though there won't be that large a gap between them if you fill all 4 in the hard drive cage (you could use one of the floppy slots or 5.25" bays.

Going to the other extreme of a cool case there's the Antec 900. It's similar to the P180 in that it has the PS bay at the bottom but there's no separate lower compartment so the drive bay configuration is more standard and you can actually fit 6 hard drives in there though with your 4 , 2 will have to be close together.

I think you may have misunderstood me. My problem with the P180s front door is not that it prevents seepage through component cracks, its that it lies basically 1/6th of an inch directly from the 120 mm intake fan. That's what I think may be preventing a free airflow into the case, or out of it, depending on how you orient the fan.  Although it doesn't outright block airflow, the expulsed/intake air doesn't go right out, it has to come in or leave from the sides of the swing door. If front-facing hard drive enclosures block airflow, how much more would a flat panel of metal right on the intake vent!

Trippy, can you recommend fans that are both high volume and moderately low noise? I've been using Thermaltake fans, which are blow a good volume, but are louder than advertized.

I took a look at the Antec 900, but I heard reports that it is too noisy, not only from rattan. The Sonatas looks nice, but does it have a front fan? I saw these three  (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Description=antec+sonata) on newegg. Comments on them?

I'm happy with my Coolermaster Mystique.  It has a drive configuration that Trippy wouldn't be entirely happy with for airflow, but fits a lot of your criteria.  The front visor/panel does not obstruct airflow as it's a half inch beyond the front plate and you can leave it locked open when you're watching movies.

Mine, at least, is quiet.  My disks make as much noise than the fans.

I noticed on the Coolmaster Mystique that it has two side vents, one with a funnel that ostensibly lies over the CPU. Have you had any issues with that funnel? I'm concerened that should I buy an aftermarket CPU cooler, say the scythe ninja, for instance, the funnel woud be in the way. Also, are those funnels meant to take 80 mm fans or some such?

Silentx or scythe fans are pretty quiet, and move a lot of air. I use Scythe S-flex sff21f fans as case ventilation. 1600rpm 63.6cfm 28dba at full power. ~$14 each from newegg in quantity. I

As for the door of the P180, you can take it off entirely if you choose.

I say fuck Antec, for a variety of reasons and mostly because they sold me a bum case that I tried to use while sort of drunk.  It didn't go all too well. I've been looking at Lian-Li's stuff and it sure is pretty, but I haven't started a serious case search.

Those are mutually exclusive concepts though obviously there will be fans that are quieter than others for the same amount of air moved. The Scythe S-Flex that rattran mentioned above is a good reference fan to compare others to:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article695-page5.html#sflex
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article63-page2.html

You don't want the III since that one has the rotated drive cage. The other two are virtually identical in design (though obviously the outside appearance is different) with the Plus being the newer design (the Designer is a rebadge of the old P150 which I have).

All those have power supplies, though, so if you like that design you'll want this one which is the same as the Plus without the PS:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129018

Some of them do come with front fans (the Solo doesn't) so you should check the specs though like I mentioned before the Antec fans aren't particularly quiet so you'll want to replace them all anyways.

The Zalman fans that come in the HT160 are 3,000 RPMs and nearly silent. In fact, I think they are silent. I sure as shit can't hear them from about 30 inches away.

If they are really spinning that fast (which I highly doubt) then they are not silent -- you just have other stuff that's drowning out that noise.

I would really go for a Sonata if I weren't dealing with some fairly serious heating issues that are only going to get worse as the summer gets hot (still pretty cool here in Seattle). The lack of a front fan, and the reliance of a solitary back fan to push or pull air out of the case makes me think that no matter how well the cabling gets tucked away, its not going to be cool in there with that long 8800 card that heats up and 4 drives going at it. Its a swank looking case, very simple and elegant, and gets a 10/10 for aesthetics and probably good marks for silence, but I just don't think it's going to do the trick.

:headscratch: The lack of a bundled front fan does not mean the case doesn't have front fan mounts. Read the specs. All those Antec cases have front fan mounts (some have 2).

Care to elaborate with a short work of fiction?  :drill:

The first thing I did with the case was to remove the funnel since I have a gigantic tower cooler on my CPU.  I think the spacing would fit an 80 mm fan.  The case is decently wide, so I might be able to fit one there even with my cooler, but it would be very close.

The funnel is just to provide an isolated outside air source to the CPU fan.  You would have to mod things to add a fan to the setup.  A fan with screws holes on both sides, and cutting the funnel down to size, would allow you to insert a fan between the side panel and the funnel.

Darkness filled the room, shadows dancing across surfaces as the PS2's screen saver whirled in rhythmic circles.  On the couch slept a nubile young woman, a too large nightgown drapped over her curves.  As the controller slipped from her hand and bounced off the floor her lids bolted open.  Her eyes focused intently and she screamed, "Fuck off!  Write your own wank material!"  Then she drifted back to sleep, content.

Fin.

Thanks babe, you're the best.

Holy HELL that was HOT.

;D

Its not listed on the newegg specs, but the 'product tour' mentions it has two 92mm front fan mounts. Not quite sold on the smaller fans, but at least its an option.

Update!

I don't think I need a new case after all. I did a little experiment. Firstly, I swapped out the rear Antec 120 fan I had for a Silverstone variable speed fan I had rotting in the computer parts bin. Then I turned off the front 120 fan altogether, and the internal temperature dropped, the CPU temp dropped and the vid card temp dropped, all about an average of 7 degrees. That is with the rear fan set on a low setting. If I crank it up to be just a mild hum, my vid card keeps acceptable temperatures. There's no rattling, either, so I'm basically fixed.

What I think happened with the front fan as an intake is that the air was blowing over the 4 hard drives, heating up, which was being shunted to just below the 8800 card, which is so long that it was essentially creating a warm air bath that couldn't rise very easily. With the front fan off, the air from the hard drives rises by convection alone and then gets flushed out the back fan. It makes ense now, but I wouldn't have figured it out without the happy accident.

Early GTX280 benchmarks:

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/06/14/complete-gtx280-scores-here

Looks like a good improvement at high resolutions, moderate improvement at medium resolutions. They say too big and too hot and too slow, but I don't see any figures addressing that. Maybe I'm missing something.

OK, I built my last computer several years ago. It's time for an upgrade. But I'm old. Spending a little more money is worth saving the aggrivation of putting shit together and the risk of diagnosing and repairing things on my own.

Can anyone recommend a reliable computer retailer where I can select from a big range of good parts for my rig and have them put it together and repair at my house it if it breaks?

I'll build it myself again if the cost difference is huge or if my only choices are places where I won't have much choice about what goes into it. But the peace of mind is worth a few hundred bucks.

Dell gaming rigs are pretty decent, and of course you can get a bells and whistles warranty with them, but it ain't cheap. Monarch computers used to be good for highly customizable builds, but they went belly up, I think.

Falcon NW seems to have a slightly cheaper build than Dell:

http://www.falcon-nw.com/config/build.asp 2k for a system with a E8400, 8800GT, 4 gig of 800mhz ram and a 250 gig drive. Its not a bad system, although of course, a home build of the same would probably hit ~1.2k

$1.2k? What are you talking about? $800-$900 easy.

Eh, probably right, but I wasn't in the mood to look up all the independent parts.

I just bought a pre-built machine that eats AoC like a tasty snack, and it only cost 700 dollars.  I could have done it up to a hundred bucks cheaper.  Will the whole thing melt within a year?  Possibly. 

The caveat is that I don't care much for bells and whistles (including lots of extra peripherals, drives, etc.).  I just want the raw horsepower.  Also, people are probably spending (wasting?) more money than they need to on the quad processors and absolute top-of-the-line vid cards.  The price differences can be huge, but the gains are often marginal.

Yeah, because all the video editing / photoshop / folding or whatever people do with their machines is a waste. I don't use my computer just for gaming.

Claiming 'raw horsepower' then slagging off quadcores and high end video is kinda  :uhrr:

Sorry, didn't mean to slag off quad cores per se...what I meant is that, depending on how much multi-tasking you are really doing, a powerful dual core may be nearly as good as a more pricey quad.  For many things, the speed of the cores is more important than the sheer number of cores.

But certainly, it depends on what you use your machine for, and how many things are being done in parallel.  For me, it is primarily just gaming.

This is becoming less true with each new cpu release.  Intel is getting much, much better at getting their multicore procs to work in unison and present themselves to software/os as a single core cpu. 

Your statement was has a larger degree of truth with the Pentium D than it does with the core 2 duo and beyond.

I agree.  The point is, you can still get some pretty fast dual core processors that are good enough for most uses, without paying a premium.  While I'd love a shiny new Q9700 (or whatever the latest is), fact is that one could get by nicely with far less.

Huh? No. There's no "getting their multicore procs to work in unison and present themselves to software/os as a single core cpu" going on here.

And uhm, Cyrrex, since it was asked, what company made your pre-built machine?

lets rephrase then, the os is getting better at bouncing tasks between multi cores + having shared on die cache that can be allocated dynamically to each proc will allow a quad core to outperform the equivalent single or dual core chip on any given windows application that remotely taxes the cpu (even if it isn't specifically written for multiple processors).

My original statement was based on a hazy recollection of an article (Maximum PC maybe?) when the core 2 duo 1st came out and was benchmarked against the FX62.  For some reason I have a fuzzy memory of them wondering how intels core 2 duo would compete against the FX62 when the FX62 handled single threaded apps in a way that utterly spanked the pentium D's handling of the same apps.  The answer (obvious now) is that the core 2 duo handles it better.

Anyhoo just being able to offload windows' bloated services onto another core and present your app with a fully untaxed core (or more) for it's own use is going to improve performance.

Still wrong.

show me a benchmark

I just popped in to ask if anyone had heard what the new graphics cards are going to be like but saw that it was already asked/answered.  Holy crap that 200 series is a monstrosity, my case is big but I'm pretty sure it would still hit the drive bays, I'll have to open it up to remember.

With one gig of ram it would seriously cut into the 4 gigs my 32bit os can handle.  I'd basically have to commit to a 64bit os to make the graphic card worthwhile, crazy.  I won't be upgrading any time soon I think.

Er, I'm pretty sure that the ram on a graphics card is evaluated independently of your mainboard's ram and is used regardless of wether you've used up the 3~ gig the 32 OS can read. Trippy or someone else may correct me if I'm wrong.

Its the memory addresses that are important.  Regardless of how much RAM you have, your devices (GPU etc.) will claim their addresses before the OS loads and if you've hit the memory ceiling (meaning, run out of addresses) then that RAM is unavailable simply because the hardware cannot physically talk to it.

So, say I have a 1 gig vid card, and 3 gigs of ram, for a total of 4 gigs worth of 'address space'. We know that a 32 bit OS will only see ~3 gig, so what gets seen? I ask because in your explanation and using my theoretical example, either the OS would not use any dedicated vid ram, or only 2 gig of system ram and the 1 gig of vid ram. That doesn't seem to be true to my experience.

Now here's what I don't get, GD, you say that devices will claim address space BEFORE the OS loads, but it is the OS itself that's limiting the adresses it can use. Explain.

A 32 bit os can see about four gigs total.  I have four gigs of system memory and a card with 640 megs, if I bring up task manager windows thinks I only have about 3.3 gigs of system RAM due to the video card and I imagine other memory.

Aha, turns out I was off mark, and you guys were pretty much right, with the caveat that Vista locks itself to a total of 3.12 ram, aparently.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/929605

This is the common misconception.  Its not the OS that limits the amount of addressable memory, it is the physical limitations of 32 bit architecture.  The motherboard and chip are designed to be 32 bit, and therefore the OS is designed to 'talk' to those 32 bit components.  You cannot simply drop in a 64 bit OS and expect it to work - it will try to talk in its 64 bit words to components that can only understand 32 bit words.  So, Windows takes the blame, but Windows was designed to be 32 bit in order to talk to 32 bit hardware.

Each piece of memory must be addressable in order to be used.  2³² = 4,294,967,296  or 4 gigabytes, means that 4 gigabytes is all that can ever be 'seen' by hardware that can only talk in 32 bits.  Now, if you have a video card with 512 megabytes, each byte of that memory needs an address from the hardware in order to be used.  You are trading out the addresses that would be available to your system RAM in order to use the closer and therefore faster dedicated graphics card RAM. 

But you've just lost 512 MB!  Its not fair!  Gates screws us again!  Chances are you were not using that RAM anyway.  XP limits applications to a 2 gigabyte pool unless you tinker with its default settings. 


If you have 3 gigs of RAM and 1 gig on a video card, your OS hardware will be able to address every location in all of that RAM (theoretically, without getting into holes.)  Do not confuse memory with addresses.  Memory is a physical thing, addresses are pointers to their physical locations.  I guess an example would be your hands.  You are physically limited to pointing at ten things at one time.  You may have a hundred things to point at, but you only have the fingers to point at ten at a time.  Its a physical limitation with modern computers as well.

Or you simply install an x64 os,. drop in 8gb of memory and move on.

The GTX280 seems somewhat... weak at this point. About the same as a 9800gx2, without as much heat/power, for a $200 premium. Still, pushing the 9800gtx/+ to ~$200 is a good thing. We'll see if later drivers can improve on it.

I'm hoping ATI gets their shit together and actually has a decent competing product in the 4870.

Except these days most CPUs are 32 AND 64, so what you end up with is determined by your OS, even though the hardware can go either way, as Rattan points out.

You can see my knowledge of hardware is dated.  Looking at my chip, it can definitely run 64 and I'm in a 32 bit environment. 

You are the one making the claim, show me yours first. It's like you are claiming Santa Claus really exists and asking me to disprove you.

Actually I'm not doing anything important at the moment so I'll be kind and show you where you are wrong rather than making your figure it out for yourself.

Though this is stated really badly your claim is that a Core 2 Quad will have a larger shared L2 cache compared to a single core processor or a Core 2 Duo and therefore for a single application it's possible they will have a more L2 cache to work will and therefore be faster (given the same clock speeds I'm assuming).

First, by definition these processors are no longer "equivalent" since one of them has more total L2 cache (in theory).

Second, and this is my main point, a Core 2 Quad is two Core 2 Duos smushed together and actually have two separate L2 caches, each one shared by 2 cores. E.g. a Q9550 with "12 MB L2 cache" is actually two separate 6 MB L2 caches. I.e. it's essentially two E8300s packaged together. A Q9300 (the low end 45nm C2Q) actually only has two 3 MB L2 caches and is in effect gimpier in terms of L2 cache than many of the older Core 2 Duos which have a (shared) 4 MB L2 cache.

But let's assume at some point in the future a Core 2 Quad actually has a real shared global L2 cache that all 4 cores can share. Does that mean you'll get better performance in non-synthetic benchmarks? Maybe. There are very few real-world apps these days that can fit entirely inside a L2 cache. The more memory an app needs beyond what can fit inside the L2 cache the less benefit a larger L2 cache is. Your typical high-end 3D MMORPG will take ~1 GB RAM these days. Though how that 1 GB of RAM is accessed is not uniform, boosting your L2 from, say 6 MB (a current Core 2 Duo) to 12 MB (a theoretical C2Q with a single shared L2 cache) is not going to make a big difference in your L2 cache miss rate as the extra 6 MB of L2 cache represents 0.6% of the total RAM needed.

If a programmer wanted to he or she could spend a lot of time optimizing the code to take advantage of that extra cache (assuming the OS doesn't yank it away from the program) which could give a nice speed boost but that's something each game would have to be specifically tailored for and for the PC is not worth the effort since there are so many different processors that the game can be run on. For consoles I'm sure the AAA titles spend a lot of effort on optimizing this sort of thing since the hardware is fixed.

If you are running some synthetic benchmarks and with 12 MB of L2 cache you can fit the entire thing in there while with only, say, 6 MB of L2 you can only fit half the benchmark, yes you'll see a huge improvement in the benchmark numbers. But that sort of thing doesn't really reflect how real-world apps perform.

Edit: that first point wasn't necessary

God that would suck.  And also be highly processor dependent.  Just figuring out the scheme would take quite a long time.  You would basically have to divide up your program into 16 or 24 or whatever (based on the set associativity of the cache) discrete memory locations populated in a very specific pattern.  You're pretty much talking about hand placing several million instructions.

Anyway, there have been lots of studies that show there is a diminishing return on cache sizes and associativity so even if you did have some MONSTER cache it's not really going to end up that much faster than a slightly more limited cache.

ATi Radeon 4850 is coming out next week @ $200, which is prompting NVIDIA to drop the price of the 9800 GTX to $200. The two cards side by side are more or less even in terms of performance, with a slight nod to the 4850. NVIDIA still retains overall performance advantage with multiple cards, due to uneven performance scaling results from Crossfire. However, compared to the 8800 GT in SLI, the 9800 GTX SLI does not have significant performance gains in most games.

The NVIDIA 9800 GTX+ is slated for a mid-July delivery @ a $230 price point for ~ a 9% performance increase.

Cliff notes: If you're buying 1 card in the $200 range, buy a 4850. If you're buying 2 (or more) $200 cards go with 8800 GT's for $150 each.

Hard mode: Wait for the 9800 GTX+ to come out to see how it effects the pricing on the rest of NVIDIA's product line.

How does this (https://secure.newegg.com/WishList/MySavedWishDetail.aspx?ID=8075212) look? Anything I'm missing? (I have a recently purchased GeForce 8800GTS that will go with it). Bear in mind I am a builder n00b who usually just checks things off a list on Dell or Gateway's site, so feel free to mock viciously.

$134.99 - ASUS P5KC LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail  (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131188)
Onboard networking (hub is only 100M so it should be fine) and audio (is an audio card even worth it? I use a USB headset anyway...) (Changed by recommendation)
$  74.99 - Rosewill RP550V2-D-SL 550W SLI Ready-ATX12V V2.01 Dual Fans Power Supply - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182030)
I have no idea if this is good or not.
$115.98 - Crucial Ballistix 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model BL2KIT12864AA1065 - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148069) x2
I didn't see any 2GB sticks for my mobo so I suck at Newegg, I guess.
$209.99 - [http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037]Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz LGA 775 Quad-Core Processor Model BX80562Q6600 - Retail[/url]
If I splurge on anything it will be this - this build is intended to last a while.
$ 29.99 - COOLER MASTER RR-CCH-L9U1-GP 92mm Hyper TX2 CPU Cooler - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835103031)
No preference on this
$ 99.99 - Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD6400AAKS 640GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136218)
No preference on this, will probably start using external HD arrays anyway (lots of ahem, video)
$ 25.99 - LG 22X DVD&#177;R DVD Burner Black IDE Model GH22NP20 - OEM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136144)
No preference on this, may just gank the DVD burner out of my old system.
$ 89.99 - NZXT Apollo Black SECC Steel Chassis ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146025)
Uh, looks like it's roomy enough?  Schild thinks it looks assy and recommends this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119137) instead.

Total: $742.91 - I'd like to keep reasonably close to that price point but have mild flexibility.

(edited for people w/o Newegg accts)

Have to log in to see it.

A lot of the reviews say that RAM you listed burns out with the chipset in your motherboard after a few months.

That specific brand or that specific speed or what? I ask because I have the equivalent corsair brand PC8500 and the same P35 chipset and so far so good, been running 8 months.

Are you married to the DDR 1066? You could get this for less money and have 2 slots to add even more memory to:

OCZ 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227248) - $93.99 (-$30 MIR)

I assume it's just the crucial brand, maybe even only that particular product.  If you read the reviews (which are really the best part of newegg) there is no way you would buy it.  Ramdom RAM errors slowly creeping up months after you thought everything was fine really suck.

Crucial seems to have gone to shit.

Who recommended this thing? :-P It's pointless to get a dual DDR2/DDR3 motherboard where the DDR3 is limited to 1333 MHz since you are looking at maybe a 1 - 2% improvement in performance if it isn't actually slower than DD2. Not the same board but you can see here (http://www.anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=2989&p=7) that DDR2 is actually faster than DDR3 in gaming benchmarks in the same motherboard because of the faster timings.

Hard to know without knowing who did the design of it for them.

Try here (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010170147%201052315794&bop=And&Order=PRICE).

Your link and your description don't match. URL goes to Core 2 Duo E8400.

Er, I should correct myself, I have the PC2 6400@400mhz, Corsair CM2X1024 x 4
And I have heard that PC8500 ram does have problems with P35 chipsets, but in this case I heard the problems emerge with the Gigabyte P35 boards, and thought it was common to them alone.

Honestly, I'm with Trippy here...P35 is a bit of a dated chipset anyway, and would probably urge buying an x38 or x48 board, even if it hikes up the price a wee bit.

Anything changed or is the recent discussion in this thread still pertinent? My PC has decided to give up on me the last couple of days and is crashing frequently. I could possibly get it working again with some minor part replacement, but it's time for a new one anyway.

So I'm going to get everything, sans speakers, this time around. If anyone has any recommendations then please do, otherwise I might beg for advice once I've got a basic idea what I'm looking at. Looking at being on the good value side, but able to play games for at least a while to come.

Well it's June now, so you might as well start a new thread.

Just kidding, most of the last couple of pages are recent so give them a whirl. Spec out what you want on Newegg and throw us the 'share this cart' link or whatever it's called.

Oh and if anyone who lives in Australia, specificaly Victoria, has any advice on a decent and affordable place to get stuff that'd be nice too. Currently I'm just looking at MSY's prices: http://www.msy.com.au/Parts/PARTS.pdf

I'm still very happy with my set-up from earlier in the thread.  The processor could be upgraded to a Q9450 or whatever the new quad is, but it's been a solid build for me.

I bought my stuff from Centrecom.com.au 

At the time they were the cheapest.

Ok, based on your PDF..

Video:
Nvidia 8800 GT, Gigabyte or Asus $222
or
Nvidia 9800 GTX, Gigabyte or Asus $323

MoBo:
Asus P5E-x38 $239
Or
Gigabyte X38-DQ6 $265

CPU:
C2D E8400 $207

CPU cooler:
Coolermaster Hyper 212  $49

HD:
Seagate SATA 250 gig $63

Memory:
4Gig Kingston Hyperx DDR2 800 $114

Case:
Antec Nine-Hundred $167 (probably one of the best cooling/noise ratio cases out there)

PSU:
Themaltake Toughpower 750W (nice nice modular cables) $192

Total: $1253 on the low end, $1382 on the high end

Optical drives, Keyboard and mouse I am going to assume you'll canibalize from your old rig.

Speaking of which, I splurged last weekend and bought the Lian Li PC-B25 case, an awsome budget but very effective CPU heatsink, and a really really dissapointing PCI slot fan.  I will take some pics later, cuz it really is a beautiful thing, both inside and out.

Cheers Engels.

I have this Antec SP-500 PSU in my PC atm that isn't as old as everything else. But I guess it won't cut it eh?

erm, its Engels, and sure, I think that Antec will suit you just fine.

Oops about that. My hearfelt apologies. It was a typo more than confusion. :)

So I'm now looking at:

Buying:

CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E8400/ 3.00GHz/ 6MB Cache/ 1333FSB/ LGA775  $207.00
MB: Gigabyte X38-DQ6  $265
HDD: Seagate Barracuda 250Gb 7200RPM 16Mb SATA 2  $63.00
RAM: Kingston DDR2 4GB PC-6400/800 (2x2GB) CL5 Value Ram  $110.00
GPU: Asus EN8800GT-HTDP-512 GF8800GT, 512MB, DDR3, PCIE2.0, HDTV, 2xDVI-I, HDCP  $222.00
Case: Antec Nine Hundred Black  $156.20
Cooling: Coolmaster Hyper 212  $49 or Zalman CNPS9500A LED $65

Total: $1072.20

Reusing:

PSU: Antec SP-500.
DVD/Speakers/KB/Screen/Other HDDs

I'm not missing anything essential there am I?

Hold up...I just read some reviews that say that the Coolermaster Hyper 212 is awsome, but that its fan -cracks- after a month's use! Not everyone's, but enough to make me leery. From your list, I'd probably go for the Zalman 9500 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835118223). I have one cooling an old AMD 64 San Diego chip, and it does a good job of keeping that overheating monster cool, so I figure it'll do very nicely with a 45 nm Wolfdale.

Don't buy an 8800gt. Go up to either a 9800gtx+ or a 4870.

More bang for the buck either way.

Well, I am basicly broke at the moment so it'll probably take me a little while to save up the money, so I'll recheck the prices in a month when I'm closer to being able to afford it. I can't really afford $1000 though so I will stick to the cheaper side as close as possible. Uni+Mortgage is fucking me over.

Ask Schild about the 8800gt versus the 9800gtx sometime :P

Why the expensive motherboard then?

I think I saw it listed cheaper at some other site, so it was the same. I assumed that it was the better of the two.

If there is some considerably cheaper cheaper alternative that I should consider I'd be happily enlightened. I really have no idea at this point as I havn't bought a PC for ages and just started looking about yesterday.

Are you planning on overclocking?

The ATI 4850 beats them both. For less money ;)

But it's ATI...

Never again.

Nope.

Take a look at a Samsung F1 series, my next buy is going to be their 1TB ones (~$156 atm)


Take a look at a CM 690 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119137) half the price with a lot of nice options.


If you have the case room the Thermalright Ultra-120 (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835109125) is huge and cools well even with a slow 120mm fan (using a scythe df)

My PC is really quite but I have to say if your looking at a 8800gt their fans can get quite loud on the nvidia reference ones once they heat up. I'll probably end up buying an AC Accelero (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835186016) and rip the manufacture's heatsink/fan off.

Edit: oh yeah, I have one of the older 8800gt's with the older "improper" fan mapping. I followed this guide (http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1260590) which spinup the fan slower at lower temps with a more staggered approach.

I just bought a knock-off of the Thermalright Ultra-120, the Xigmatek HDT-RS1283 120mm CPU Cooler  (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835233012) and it works like a champ. I can't really do comparison bechmarks because I have no AC and can't get the room down to the 22 degrees, much less the internal ambient temp to that, but just to give you an idea, under a steady prime95 torture test for 10 min, the two cores on my E6750 drop from 55 down to 36 degrees in 5 seconds flat.

I would have recommended the Ultra-120 (it really just can't be beat), but it wasn't on his list :(

I do agree that the CM690 is a very good substitute for the Antec900, and I nearly went for it myself, but the one I found at the retail outlet I was at didn't come with all the fans! It had only two 120s...the Antec 900 comes with all the fans installed already and just in general, I like Antec engineering. Not to diss CM, since I have no experience with it.

I have the other version of the 1283 Xigmatek and my CPU is kept very cool.  Motherboard layout can make it a pain to install, but it's really nice.

The ATi 4870 is making a name for itself by beating the more expensive Geforce offerings in performance at a much lower price point. This will prompt NVIDIA to lower prices again soon.

While I haven't seen SLi/Crossfire benchmarks on the new products yet, I do know from previous experience that the performance scaling on Crossfire is uneven.

Prognosis: Wait a week to see what the NVIDIA price drops do to the marketplace.

All things being equal the 4870 (and for significantly less money the 4850) are great single card solutions. If multiple GPUs are your thing though, the NVIDIA offerings will work best for you (just wait for the price drops.)

Also, re. disparaging comments about ATi: This generation ATi is the underdog. A couple generations ago you might have gotten stung by a lame ATi product. I could say exactly the same things at different times about NVIDIA - it doesn't mean I can't appreciate the value of the NVIDIA offerings. It's just the nature of hardware: examine the data, buy what's best for your price and performance needs at the time you're building. My ancient desktop is still running a ATi 9800 pro that I flashed to an XT - the thing's a champ and still gets up to run team fortress 2 fairly well.

ATi has a good chance to be competitive with NVIDIA well into the future. I'd say it's a lot like the great processor debates, but lately intel really has been kicking AMD around, so it's recently a very bad analogy. And I actually do think AMD is in real trouble - hopefully they don't have too much effect on ATi.

One of the things that ticks me off about ATI is their lack of support for Linux. I know, not that big a deal to most, but it bothers me immensely that ATI, always touted as the hard working underdog trying to get a chance against the limelight shown on Nvidia are actually total lazy slackers when it comes to providing Linux support, while on the other hand Nvidia has a very good track record of working with many Linux distros.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_evolution&num=1

Hmm...X38 MBs are still painfully expensive.

Well lo and behold.

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ati_radeonhd_4870&num=1

Linux benchmarks of the new ATI cards. Seems like Nvidia cards run better in Linux if you aren't using AA/AF, but if you are, the ATI cards are better.

So uh, since I never run without AA/AF, my next card for my Linux box will be ATI. Most interesting indeed.

It's not the hardware I'm disparaging.  My 9800 Pro was a great card.  The drivers, however, were absolute crap.

Debatable - not that I want to debate it. I'll just say that for my needs I never had an issue with my drivers on pretty much the same card.

Here's the latest remodeling I did after purchasing a Lian Li case:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3173/2639684687_d63bc74493_b.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3061/2640512678_7518e72384_b.jpg)

This case allows me pretty decent cable management, considering I'm generally impatient and hopeless with that.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3024/2639683781_76295fcece_b.jpg)

Here's the awsome-est cooling corridor I've built.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3132/2640512350_bd20b8f5a7_b.jpg)

Here's to give you an idea of the size of the CPU cooler.

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3265/2640512584_325929b18c_b.jpg)

Well, I spent July 4 going to Fry's and seeing what they had on sale, and got pretty much everything on the list from my earlier post... didn't get a CPU cooler (seemed superfluous since Intel CPUs come with a heat sink + fan as standard), got 2 2GB DDR2 sticks of RAM, got a 1TB hard drive for a touch more, got an Antec Sonata 2 case solely because it came with a 500w power supply bundled with it, and picked up an OEM copy of Vista 64 (Home Premium).

All told it was about $850 (the OS drove the price up from my earlier estimate, but I had no copies of Vista 64 around and XP64 is a nonstarter for a gaming rig). Vista is actually zippy now and I get rock-solid 60FPS in WoW with every setting jacked up, even during raids. I realize WoW is not exactly a stress test, but I cancelled my AoC account (maybe when they get patching under control I'll see what it looks like when you can actually run it).  Under the benchmarks that came with Vista, everything maxes out at 5.9 except for my RAM speed, which is at a pokey 5.5. I'll live with it. :D

Lum, might want to run a Prime95 torture test to see how well that CPU stays cool with the standard heatsink; I was fine with my standard till summer hit, and since I don't have AC, the ambient temperature in my apt got into the 80s, and the Intel factory sink and fan were just not cutting it at all.

If I didn't have AC in Texas, I would have worse problems than my CPU.

Random question, but do they still make those cases that were pretty much a fridge?