April Computer Build Thread

[Lantyssa]

Yeg, I like my case, although it may not work for your needs.  Cooler Master Mystique

It's cheap.  It has six 3.5" bays and four 5.25" bays.  It won't hold two PSUs.  Your motherboard size will determine how well things fit.  If it uses all the ATX screws it may be a tight fit if any of your connectors are on the side.  It's aluminum, but mine seems to not have any noise problems.

[Logik]

That sideways mount in the TJ-10 (for example) isn't too much worse that what I have already but I'm somewhat suspicious of it.

I'm not sure why you're suspicious of the sideways mount.  I only have one issue with it: unless I'm doing something wrong(I probably am), the cabling just looks ugly.  I guess it might be a pain to remove an entire cage in order to swap out just one drive, but I would've had to do that with my old regular-style mount anyway.

On the upside, I can tell you that spending that much on a case buys you a ton of quality.  I've got no regrets about my purchase.

[Trippy]

The problem with the sideways drive cages is they block a tremendous amount of airflow. If the cables look ugly put them in the other way.

[MisterNoisy]

If anyone was looking to upgrade and doesn't mind buying open box parts, a 512MB 8800GT can be had for as cheap as I've ever seen them ($140) here.

[Engels]

The problem with the sideways drive cages is they block a tremendous amount of airflow. If the cables look ugly put them in the other way.

Is it really that they're sideways, or that they're in a cage of a certain type that blocks flow? I ask because my Antec Lanboy box has sideways oriented slots for the drives, but the spacing between the drives is pretty good, better, in fact, than the cage for my P180b. Here's what I mean:

[Trippy]

The problem with the sideways drive cages is they block a tremendous amount of airflow. If the cables look ugly put them in the other way.

Is it really that they're sideways, or that they're in a cage of a certain type that blocks flow? I ask because my Antec Lanboy box has sideways oriented slots for the drives, but the spacing between the drives is pretty good, better, in fact, than the cage for my P180b. Here's what I mean:

It's not the spacing between drives that's the issue it's the fact that the side of the cage where you typically put the screws through have smaller cutouts for airflow from the front of the case like so:



This is from the Antec Sonata III. There are some cutouts above each drive platform but there's still alot of metal blocking airflow over the drives.

When the cage is in the normal direction the only blockage is from the drives themselves.

[Engels]

I agree that for someone using only one or two hard drives, this layout doesn't make sense. However, the width of the metal blocking the airflow is only slightly wider than the drives themselves, no matter which way they're facing. Since I'm actually using all 4 drive trays, the trade off seems slight.

I'm trading off heat dissapation across more metal against having the front fan cool the hard drives directly, but the ease of access outweighs the reduction in circulation. Then again, I'm no OC'er and I live in a temperate clime, so heat issues aren't that paramount.

[Yegolev]

Less critically, I want one that can hold two PSUs since my OCZ GXS700 isn't being strained at the moment.

I don't understand this. Why do you want an extra PSU if your current one isn't maxed out yet?

It's inevitable.  Also I like the geekiness of it.  The only reason the 700W OCZ is not being strained now is because my mobo only has one IDE port, so my DVD-RW and 8mm tape have been pulled.  With the new 500GB disk I just put in I have just over a terabyte now and should not need storage for a little while longer, but I plan to run the hard drive fans (since I suspect the previous disk died a heat death, I bought three HD HSF... should have bought four but I've been somewhat scatterbrained lately) on the 480W Enermax I have installed.  Who knows what else I might plug in there, but it's an option.  I like options.

[Engels]

Yegolev, have you made an estimate of your power useage? I ask because unless you're doing some really wild stuff, power requirements these days are less than in times past. Check out http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp to see what you need.

Let us know if you find a case that will support two standard PSUs. I've heard of redundant PSUs on server motherboards, but not one that'll hold two.

[Lantyssa]

I've finally had a chance to push my system.  It really is a dream.  I was simply going for a quality build where I wouldn't allow myself to choose low-end components, but I seem to have ended up with a great system.  I'm very, very happy with it.

I definately like my cooling.  After running Conan for eight hours, Real Temp showed my maximums on all four cores as 52°/46°/46°/42°.  Core 0 is always the hot one and Core 3 the cool one, so at a guess 0 is on the bottom and 3 is closest to the heat sink.

With almost all my graphics options maxed  (HQ distance is 50%, View Distance is 2800 m, Anti-aliasing is 4x; everything else maxed) Tortage runs 35-40 FPS, and enclosed spaces such as the Undertombs are 100+ FPS.

The only problem I'm having is that sometimes the machine crashes while XP is booting.  The error code resolves to what MS thinks is the BIOS getting incorrect processor information.  While I don't fully trust Microsoft's diagnosis, Abit is still working on compatability issues with quad processors on this board, so it's a possibility.  The current revision is the first to really support them.

[Murgos]

I bought the same MB as you and I have to say I am extremely happy with it.  It is easily the best documented MB I have ever purchased, the onboard LED display of POST codes is pure geek nirvana.

The only real difference between our two systems is that I got an E8400 rather than the quad core and the G92 8800 GTS rather than the GT.  This was an excellent time to do an upgrade.  Costs are low, parts are mature and reliable and performance gains are HUEG.

[Yegolev]

Yegolev, have you made an estimate of your power useage?

No.  I have, in fact, consciously gone far overboard.  It was a better plan before I found that not-ridiculously-priced 700W unit.  As it is, using a 480W PSU to drive two 80mm fans is a bit overboard.

Let us know if you find a case that will support two standard PSUs. I've heard of redundant PSUs on server motherboards, but not one that'll hold two.

Hold my beer and watch this.  That was before my last hardware upgrade, but you see where the PSU would go.  I don't have a pic of the aftermath, but I'll get one up soon.

[Engels]

So is that a gutted gateway super tower circa 1993? 

[Yegolev]

Antec.  Circa 1997.  It's a fucking champ, but all champs eventually contract some horrible disease and die.

I find myself distracted by the idea of turning a digital camera into an infrared camera... so the pics of the new rig might take a bit longer than I thought.

[Grand Design]

My P4 will no longer sustain my gaming needs. 

This list is based on Tomshardwares March mid-range build. 

Notable differences: I will supply a Raptor HD and the LCD, but suffer with getting Vista and a new KB \ mouse combo.  I used a different mobo since the recommended one was out of stock and this one apparently has legacy support. 

Where am I wrong and what bottlenecks lie within - I hail from the P4 era so be kind

Edit: For anyone who looks for advice here: In italics below are reasons why this was a poorly researched rig.  Thanks to all who pointed in better directions.

$119.99  Antec Nine Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail
This case may not have the space to support SLI because of the PSU placement at the bottom.  Cooling is important, so in replacing this case I chose one with several 120mm fans for quiet, efficient cooling.

$119.99  ASUS P5N-E SLI LGA 775 NVIDIA nForce 650i SLI ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail
This mobo is bottom of the line and supports legacy components.  Though I'd like to have that feature, I should be building this machine for future upgrades.

$419.98  EVGA 640-P2-N829-AR GeForce 8800GTS SSC 640MB 320-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail X2
Why buy two older video cards when buying one top of the line now and doing SLI later makes more sense.

$169.99  Thermaltake W0116RU 750W Complies with ATX 12V 2.2 & EPS 12V version Power Supply - Retail

$254.99  Intel Core 2 Quad Q6700 Kentsfield 2.66GHz LGA 775 95W Quad-Core Processor Model HH80562PH0678MK - OEM
The 45nm quad core chips cost a bit more for much improved performance.

$87.98  A-DATA 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model ADQVE1A16K - Retail X2
1GB sticks on a modern motherboard do not leave room for upgrades.  I also upgraded a notch in RAM speed.

$34.99  Microsoft 4GC-00002 OEM Silver/Black Wireless Ergonomics Laser Desktop 4000 Mouse Included - OEM
Don't buy what you have.

$94.99  Microsoft Windows Vista 64-Bit Home Premium for System Builders Single Pack DVD - OEM
What the fuck?  I was drunk and Vista was what I woke up to this morning.  This is a gaming machine, and I have a spare XP install.

$25.99  COOLER MASTER RR-CCH-L9U1-GP 92mm Hyper TX2 CPU Cooler - Retail
_________
$1,328.89

For $100 more, I bought a machine that is faster, has room to upgrade without replacing these components and will be cool and quiet.  Hopefully.

[schild]

Your build is way off.

If you're going to spend $1000+, go with a 45nm Processor. On top of that, there's no reason to spend $90 on 2GB of DDR2-800. You should be able to get nearly 4GB for $90-100.

Also, You either want a pair of 8800GT 512 or a 9800GTX if you're spending that kind of scracth on a graphics card.

Honestly, short of a powersupply, which you've managed to just not list, and Vista, you've butchered a modern build.

[Trippy]

I don't like the looks of that cooler. It looks like it's using a custom fan design which means when it dies you are screwed. It's also 92 mm meaning it's louder than 120 mm fans that can move the same amount of air, other things being equal.

I've hated Thermaltake products since their "golden orb" days (cheap flashy looking products that perform like crap) and I personally avoid them. If you do get it make sure the cables are long enough to handle the non-standard layout of the Antec case.

The chipset on that motherboard looks like it's just passively cooled. If you plan on OC'ing you might want a MB with a more robust cooling system.

[Trippy]

If you're going to spend $1000+, go with a 45nm Processor. On top of that, there's no reason to spend $90 on 2GB of DDR2-800. You should be able to get nearly 4GB for $90-100.

The equivalent 45 nm Quad Core CPU is $100 more expensive. He can get a gimpier (less cache) and slower 45 nm Quad Core for about the same as his.

Also, You either want a pair of 8800GT 512 or a 9800GTX if you're spending that kind of scracth on a graphics card.

I missed that he wanted an SLI setup in which case he has the wrong motherboard too since that one only supports dual x8 slots instead of dual x16 slots.

[schild]

Grand Design, how much do you want to spend, just give us a number. ^_^

[Grand Design]

Good stuff.  (Except the obligatory kidney shot from schild.)

Seriously, I don't mind spending more money, but this was based on the mid-range build from two months ago.

I am not at all sold on SLI, but my thinking was to go all out as long as I'm upgrading to this decade.

Grand Design, how much do you want to spend, just give us a number. ^_^

I'll spend over 2K but it means waiting another paycycle.  Which is not really a problem.

Edit: For schild, that is 4 gigs, 2 video cards and a 750 psu.  And ... Vista.

[Engels]

Isn't the 650i chipset a bit long in the tooth by now? To be honest I haven't followed nvidia chipsets, but I thought we were at least into the 700 series by now.

I second Schild's advice on upgrading to a 45 nm chip rather than a 65. I have a 65, and its great, but these 45s are that much faster that its worth the price difference.

[schild]

My Q9450 spanks everything except the new and impossible to find Q9550. I'm glad the money was spent.

I'll go through this tomorrow some time. Or Rattran will see it.

[Ragnoros]

The peoples in this thread know more then I but a few thoughts.

I would recommend skipping SLI. Everything I have read says it's a waste of money.  Just buy one good video card.
Tip: From what I have read the newer 512mb versions are the ones you want. Not the old 640/320mb versions.
Also get some cheap RAM from from crucial or corsair. I have never had a problem with crucial RAM, every other brand has failed me sooner or later. And everyone likes corsair RAM IIRC.
Unless you plan to overclock your CPU stock cooling is adequate. Just get a non OEM CPU.
And Vista? Yuck.

[schild]

Crucial or Kingston RAM really. People like Corsair but it's not worth it these days. I'm dropping 4GB of Crucial Ballistix in soon. The price is right ($100 for 4GB) and the heat sync should work fine.

Also, I wouldn't even go with an 8800GTS. I'd either get an 8800GT/512 (and upgrade later) or get the 9800GTX.

For the mobo, I use the P5KC, either way, go with P35 or X38. Don't get a new Nvidia board or X48. If you want to stay with DD2 right now and don't plan on going SLI, the P5KC has DDR3 slots you can upgrade into later.

If I were spending up to $2k, I'd get the Q9450 or the new Q9550 - which I can't even link to because Newegg doesn't have it and I'm a lazy bastard. Not sure it's worth the price jump though. $150 for 133 more Mhz and basically nothing else? Yea, f that.

Also, having looked into the Xonar DX I'd recommend that over a Creative card. Don't use onboard sound.

Also, falling under the "willing to spend money category" - I would get a nicer case just because I think Antecs are shoddy compared to Zalman. I plan on using my Zalman for years through multiple computers unless something magical about air flow is found. If you want a tower, I'd recommend this, even though it says Fatality on it. I dont' do towers anymore though. Anyone who says Antecs are built as heavy and seriously as Zalmans are kidding themselves. It's like the difference between Integra and Sony in the consumer home theatre arena (hint, Integra whoops the shit out of Sony and costs roughly the same multiple (3x more, heh). Width is sort of funky though, so you'll have to measure heat syncs and such before buying aftermarket stuff. Right now I'm stuck with an amazing heat sync on my graphics card that keeps me from being able to put the lid on my computer.

Also, go with this Seasonic 700w instead of the Thermaltake. I'm running 2 Seasonics now (well, there's 3 in the house - they make the Corsair stuff also) and they're awesome.

Uhmmm. Yea. I'm sure Rattran will fill in the rest if he notices.

[Grand Design]

Vista - You don't have to twist my arm not to get it.  I'll retire my file server and use its XP license.
SLI - I completely agree with dropping the SLI in favor of a better card.  Upgrade to SLI as needed.
That case - I can't bring myself to get a case that has FATALITY!!1! written all over it.  Also, no blowhole and the potential of running it with the door open is a deal killer.  That Antec case has the fans that I'm looking for.
CPU & mobo - I see your point. I went for a bit more robust mobo.  I almost downgraded to the 2.5, but when I saw the final price, it would have been silly not to get it.  Question - can I rely on the stock fan?  I think I know the answer to this.
RAM - DDR3.

I'll provide the sound card \ 5.1 - that will just be moved from my current system, as well as the dvd and raptor drive, keyboard etc. All of those components are less than a year old.

Wishlist V2:

$119.99 Antec Nine Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail

$299.99 ASUS P5E3 Deluxe/WiFi-AP LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

$354.99 Intel Core 2 Quad Q9450 Yorkfield 2.66GHz LGA 775 95W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80569Q9450 - Retail
   
$248.00 CORSAIR 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model TWIN3X2048-1333C9 - Retail
   
$299.99 EVGA 512-P3-N871-AR GeForce 9800 GTX(G92) 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card - Retail
   
$179.99 SeaSonic M12 SS-700HM ATX12V / EPS12V 700W Power Supply - Retail

__________
$1,502.95


Which is not much more than the last build.

[Engels]

I like Antec cases, myself. Have had two, both still in use. They aren't omgwtf awsome, but they have the basics down. That case actually does look pretty amazingly great, with the two 120s in the front, one in the back, and a big blow hole one. It looks like a winner and if I were in the market for one myself, I'd have to consider it. Then again, reading reviews of people who own one is a must.  Reports are that the bottom placement of the PSU might hinder dual video cards. Also, it gathers dust very quickly, since the front fans do not accept any filters. If you live in a dusty environment, this is a pretty significant consideration.

[Grand Design]

Having had to take the Dremel to cases to fit fans in the past, I like this case a lot.

Unfortunately, I see the reviews about the low lying PSU.  I had not considered that my current PSU, for example, has a huge intake on the bottom*, which would not work for this case.  The search continues.

As for dust, I'm pretty much on a schedule with dusting out the case and fans.  I did it last weekend, in fact.

Edit:  *Yeah, I'm that idiot who failed the part of the SAT where you have to envision objects in different positions.  Otherwise I would have immediately realized that I could just turn the PSU over.

[Jimbo]

About a month to go before I make the purchase to upgrade our two computers:

ABIT IP35 Pro LGA 775 Intel P35 ATX Intel Motherboard  $179.99

EVGA 512-P3-N871-AR GeForce 9800 GTX(G92) 512MB 256-bit  $299.99

PC Power & Cooling S75QB 750W  $149.99

Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Wolfdale 3.0GHz  $194.99

CORSAIR XMS2 DHX 4GB (2 x 2GB)  $144.00

SAMSUNG floppy drive $6.99

Western Digital Raptor WD1500ADFD 150GB 10000 RPM $169.99

Pioneer Black 20X DVD burner $29.99

ASUS Xonar DX 7.1 Channels PCI Express Interface Sound Card $99.00

Coolmaster Heatsink & Fan Hyper TX2 $25.99

Windows Vista Home x64 $99.00

ESET Anitvirus $39.99

Both computers are in a APEVIA X-Navigator, so hopefully we can reuse those, the heavier powersupply might mean getting an Antec or Coolmaster case that has the powersupply on the bottom.  Basically double everything except the hard drive (I have one in my rig allready).  I could reuse the windows XP Pro x64 that both rigs use right now too.  I've had shitty luck with powersupplies and ram in the past.  I could reuse the powersupply in my case (620 watt Enermax Liberty), but I'm thinking just to do it right from the get go.  I've had mushkin that I've bought that failed three times (three diffrent shipments) on install, so I'm leary of them.

I'm thinking the dual-core processor, it seems like a lot of bang for the buck, and the board should let me be able to upgrade later on if I want a quad-core.  I'm not doing the dual-graphic cards either, so a big freaking card is what I'm after.  The hard drive for him might be the bigger WD, either the 1 TB, 750 GB (both are slower...), or just slap in another Raptor as needed (or wait for the velicoraptor to drop in price).  I'm thinking that because he loves to make and record his saxaphone and other music, and all the other popcap games, and pictures, etc...that tends to end up on his computer.  As far as a heat sink & fan combo, I wanted something that is reliable and easy to install.  I'm going to building these solo, so easy to start up and install would be a plus.

[rattran]

I have an Antec 900 right behind me. Good case, overwide, overloud. The bottom psu can be put in so the intake faces up, exhausting the case a bit more. It'll fit the biggest cooling stuff, though the Thermalright Ultra 120 extreme precludes using a side panel fan. The 200mm fan has a low level hum, even on a low setting, which is why I retired the case. A niggling problem, but it was driving me nuts.
I'm using a Coolermaster Cosmos 1000 case right now. Huge, heavy, and quiet. Not a case you'd ever want to move, despite the handles on the top.


Sli just isn't worth the cost currently, I'd go for a x38/x48 with a 9800gtx instead. 2x2gb memory chips gives you some space for upgrading to 8gb if you do go with vista x64 in the future. If you're going ddr3, go x48. Processor either a fast 8xxx or whatever quad you can afford. The noctua cooler is getting good reviews, as are a whole slew of direct heatpipe coolers. If you're not planning on oc'ing at all, the intel stock cooler does an acceptable job.
PP&C still makes nice power supplies, OCZ bought them but haven't screwed them up yet.

And I know I'll be stoned for heresy with this, but the Raptors aren't worth the price for the little extra speed. 7 times the $/gb isn't worth it for the modest performance boost.


<edit> a missing n't changes the meaning

[Mrbloodworth]

With all the posts here, i'm wondering if i bought a good computer or not. lol. I didn't spend near as much as any of you, and i didn't put near as much thought into it. I know i was going for a budget machine... but i'm looking at numbers (that confuse me) in others postings and seeing some of the same numbers for various hardware.

[schild]

The stock cooler on my Q9450 is just fine.

That case may say Fatality on it, but it probably has better airflow than the Antec. I don't know why people like Antec so much. As far as I can tell, they're just big boxes that were neither engineered nor designed. They just slap a case around a steal box. There's a Zalman without Fatality on it with some minor design changes but it's $100 more. They tend to charge $350 right when a case comes out and the Fatality one is from last year. There may be a non-branded fatality version that Newegg doesn't carry.

Here's the rub though - I've been searching for a company that has the build quality that Zalman does and god help me I can't find one. They charge way too much (imo) but sometimes it's just worth it, particularly when there isn't an alternative (someone help me!)

Also, yea, Raptor's aren't worth the extra money. The new WDs are amazing and the Samsung Spinpoints are supposedly just monstrous (but I haven't like the reliability reviews on them, I hear they're getting better though).

As for the RAM, don't get DDR3. Upgrade later. Get 4GB (or 2GB) of DDR2 800. 4GB for $100 is just too good a deal to pass up and the difference with DDR3 at the moment will be.. well... yea. It's just too pricey imo. Though I almost made the jump the other night before Rattran said something and I looked up a few benchmarks.

[Murgos]

Schild, what temps are your cores operating at now?  Are they still around 45 C?

My E8400 cores are right around there at idle with the stock cooler and although it's not OMG hot it seems a little warmish for idle.  Though, my core temps don't budge from 45 C even playing AoC for 4 hours at max settings so maybe I shouldn't worry about it.

[Grand Design]

I'm using a Coolermaster Cosmos 1000 case right now. Huge, heavy, and quiet. Not a case you'd ever want to move, despite the handles on the top.

My two P4s generate so much noise, I think that I'm going to take your advice, spend the extra hundred and get that behemoth.  I'm afraid to see what the shipping cost will be.  I'll take another look at the F4T4L!TY!1!! case since I'm not installing any custom fans and I'd rather spend the money to have a quiet case.  God, what year is it?  1995 and we're all still playing MKII?  Fatality?  Seriously.  Maybe I can cover it up with bondo.

Sli just isn't worth the cost currently, I'd go for a x38/x48 with a 9800gtx instead.

Done. 

2x2gb memory chips gives you some space for upgrading to 8gb if you do go with vista x64 in the future.

Done.  This is the kind of obvious mistake I tend to make.  4x1 upgraded to 2x2 of DDR2 1066.  Slightly more than the 800, but I want to maximize what I can.

Processor either a fast 8xxx or whatever quad you can afford. The noctua cooler is getting good reviews, as are a whole slew of direct heatpipe coolers. If you're not planning on oc'ing at all, the intel stock cooler does an acceptable job.

I really, really like the CPU schild pointed out; the 12mb L2 especially.  Unfortunately, Newegg seems to only have them for brief moments of random interval, so Tigerdirect will supply it.  I have no plans to overclock, and with today's processors I just don't see the need.  I don't have a burning desire to take my new toy to the breaking point to get an extra 5 fps that the human eye can't even detect.  Not that there's anything wrong with overclocking, I'm just not the type.

And I know I'll be stoned for heresy with this, but the Raptors aren't worth the price for the little extra speed. 7 times the $/gb isn't worth it for the modest performance boost.

The Raptor was a buy at a local store when I was in a pinch and that was the only fast drive they carried.  I paid the double premium of the Raptor and the local computer store.  Damn my impatience, but I love my Raptor.

Thanks for the advice, everyone.  I'll throw up a final build before I click buy.

[Grand Design]

$299.99 ASUS P5E3 Deluxe/WiFi-AP LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail

$349.99 Intel Core 2 Quad Q9450 Yorkfield 2.66GHz LGA 775 95W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80569Q9450

$299.99 EVGA 512-P3-N871-AR GeForce 9800 GTX(G92) 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card

$194.99 Patriot Extreme Performance 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model PDC34G1333ELK

$199.99 COOLER MASTER COSMOS 1000 RC-1000-KSN1-GP Black/ Silver Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case

$179.99 SeaSonic M12 SS-700HM ATX12V / EPS12V 700W Power Supply
_________
$1,524.94

Without the case, I could overnight it at a reasonable price.  Tempting.

I'll wait a couple of hours in case anyone wants to jump in and slap my hand away from the buy button.

[schild]

Wow. I never knew how well built that case was. I know what my next computer is going in (since I don't like the word fatality on a case either).

That's a good box. Mushkin RAM can be a little expensive, but it's really really nice. Also, you'll fucking love the Q9450.

Pull that trigger. And you don't need rounded power cables, Seasonic packs a whole shitload of them in.

Enjoy!