f13.net

It was announced.

I don't really know what else to say.

Love bubbles, George.

We've been waiting a third of our lives for this. Heh.

Now, who makes the game?

either Capcom has a new group that will hit this hard, IE the US team. I believe Sirlin could do a fine job, OR Capcom gets Arc to do it, since they are working on the Basara X fighting game, (I wouldn't want this to happen)  Or some other company, like Dimps. ( this wont happen) I really hope Capcom does it, and it is 2d and it is fucking awesome. Who knows, maybe Capcom picked up some people from random Doujin groups and has them working on it. Maybe there is new fighting game talent at Capcom... hhmmmm

Wow, I heard that Capcom might have some Dimps people on this... WTF... Rumble Fish was kinda muh....

You can't trust anyone on this until the embargo completely drops on Friday.

I could say SNK is working on it and no one would have a choice but to Believe.

I bet its going to be on the wii.



 :-D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZP3WYiOncI

Man I cried. not much, but I cried.

I can't see it. Going to call you.

That shit is so hot, wtf are you talking about.

... No one speak. Let's just hold each other. 

doesn't look 2d to me. 

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/street+fighter+iv/video/x38gh1_trailer-street-fighter-iv_videogames

for those who can't go to youtube

Ooki: I liked it a lot. Shut up your face.

(http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h302/xeokys/vlcsnap-4078045.png)

Do want.

Daily motion is blocked also. I don't even flash on computers here, I lose.

Oh sorry, I thought you meant you hated it.

I guess I could stick it on f13 with our flv player.

plz do ^_^

It's on the frontpage.

Didn't Street Fighter stop being relevant years ago?  I mean, isn't this like getting excited for another sequel to Doom?

Uh, what?

Now you've done it....

This is almost as good of news as the new Street Fighter Movie. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0891592/)




My sense of good judgment is having sympathy pains.

Um, they overdid their 2D formula with the endless revisions of II and III, the Alpha series, Darkstalkers and the Vs. series, and they've been completely unsuccessful at breaking into 3D fighting.  How is the annoucement of SF4 anything to get excited over, when all we have so far is a trailer with no gameplay footage?

I believe the excitement is derived from the hope that that trailer was mostly game play footage.

You don't play fighting games.

Unsuccessful at breaking into 3D fighting? Dunno about that, Powerstone did damn well on the Dreamcast enough to warrant a PSP release.

My first job was at an arcade.. during what I consider to be the "peak" of the fighting game era.  Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Killer Instinct.  I would seriously stay til like 4-5 in the morning, after closing at 10pm, playing constantly with co-workers.  For free mind you.

Street Fighter is my favorite fighting game of all time.

Street Fighter will never be as fun as Powerstone. There I said it.

I don't care if it's 3D (though this is a good time to finally match the 2D artwork, unlike other attempts). Perhaps they'll just make a more robust version of HD Remix?

Or if it is 3D, hopefully they still keep the cameras simple, like VF. Traditional SF mechanics still could work that way.

Consequently, I was just thinking that I would have been more excited if they had announced a Powerstone sequel.  The Street Fighter EX games sucked compared to virtually every other 3D fighter out there.

Ha first of all a new SF is awesome, SF revitalized a dying arcade scene in its day and set a standard for vs fighting. It was the most important and successful step at actual 1 on 1 vs fighting and every subsequent entry made that interaction that much better. Also saying they killed the formula by making so many SF games is plain ignorant. Play more fighting games. Hyper Fighting, ST and all the Alpha games and SFIII games kept pushing what you could do with 2d fighters and competitive fighting games in general. SO a new SF is an awesome thing, whether it is 2d or 3d or whatever, it should be pretty good. You should be excited cause all SF is simply good game design minus all the game industry BS. No easy mode, no casual friendly crap.

LAST

The EX games didn't suck. You didn't like them but they were by no stretch of the imagination bad fighting games. They were fun, balanced, innovative entries to the SF franchise made by former SF designers to play more like technical SF. If you don't like it. That is cool, but get that bullshit mentality of "If I don't like it, then it must surely suck." crap out of here.

Street Fighter 3: Third Strike is the greatest fighting game of all time. I think it's still pretty relevant.

If that was in-game footage, I hope my video here at work just couldn't handle it.

All I saw was Ryu and Neo Ken dancing in a puddle of ink. Seriously. If the figures look like that in-game, cool. If there's all that ink flying around, blech. Think up a way to show off your platform that doesn't obscure what's happening.

</if that>

Marvel vs Capcom 2  :-)

Note the bolded part.  As for that no easy mode, no casual friendly crap, I'm going to have to reevaluate my opinion of you as some hardcore fighter nut, because Street Fighter II, and the X-men vs. Street Fighter/Marvel vs. Capcom stuff in particular are the epitome of easy mode/casual friendly.  Why do you think they were so popular?  8 year olds at fucking Round Table Pizza could get into it easily.  Sure, hardcore players could do all kinds of combos and shit, but Street Fighter's success is largely based on how accessible it is.  Not a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination.


That's the kind of mentality this site is based on.  Regardless, even you know you can't argue that the Street Fighter EX series is anywhere near as well regarded as series like Virtua Fighter, Tekken, or Soul Calibur.  It's an also-ran.  It's a fucking footnote in the history of Street Fighter.  I don't think Street Fighter IV will be a bad game, but we're far from the days where the franchise was the king of the genre.  About 15 years have passed since SFII came out, and it's been about 8 years since the last version of SFIII.  To me, Doom is the perfect example of how making a sequel to a genre defining game years down the road doesn't always turn out well.  All I'm saying is that we have 0 information on how this game will even play, so people might want to just put their cocks back inside their pants before they start masturbating to a trailer that might as well be advertising Street Fighter anime since it doesn't actually tell you shit about the game.

Theres a new DOOM?!!1shift!!1!

M vs C2 isn't for 8 year olds. It's just too much of a mess to get good at in that way. The controls are streamlned, sure, but the roster/tag teaming makes up for it.

[EDIT] Don't hate.

Velorath: Really. Stop talking. SF is not easy. It is easy to get into. Any fucking chump can try to throw a punch, but SF IN PARTICULAR is a very unforgiving fighting game franchise. The gap just between novice and intermediate is a fucking gapping chasm. And if you are saying The vs. is easy to get into, you are right there, but their draw is not their accessability, it is Marvel. Just Xmen v Street is retarded hard to get good at, there is so many freaking set ups and advanced techniques, and don't even get me started on MVC2, that game is all over the place. They may e easy to get into, but this is only because of their inherent instant gratification style game play. You push a button they move and something happens to the other guy. 3d Fighters like Tekken and VF may have more moves and what not but there is all of the same situations and  techniques included in each. So, No, it is not easy to play. It is easy to make it move around and appear like you have some sort of idea of how to engage another person, but that is immediately crushed by any halfway knowledgeable opponent.

On EX, I specifically said, you may not like it, but again, it is a good fighting game. Instead of sitting around talking shit, play it. With other people. Who play it. Till then your opinion is worth absolutely nothing cause you don't know shit about what you are talking about. You can dislike how it plays or it's art style or whatever you want, but saying it sucks just shows how misinformed you are.

I agree it never shared the same fan base SF did, but SF and competitive fighting games in general were not in the best shape at the time, and the way the game played, although good, was more involved than most 2d fighters and LOOKED less complicated than 3d fighters, which made a lot of misinformed people skeptical as to its quality. This is unfortunate cause it is a good fighting game.

Last, quit comparing Doom to SF. Street Fighter was consistantly  good and always updated with ligitimate upgrades to the game play. Whether you were into it or not, or whether you were good enough to notice how different the SFII games are to The Alpha games as compared to the SFIII games and the VS series, doesn't mean they were not well done fighting games. The doom legacy is shit compared to what the SF legacy has made.
   

Hammer, the quality of fighting games, unfortunately is shown via how many beginners can get into it and compete at a level that keeps them entertained. Or if the game is entertaining.

Basically, sales.

There's a reason SNK stuff is $70+ in Japan and $20 here.
There's a reason EX Failed. It doesn't really matter if hardcore champions of the genre liked it.

SF was good and as kids, even when we got our ass handed to us, we liked it. And continued to like it. And played and played. The most anyone *I* know spent on the EX franchise aside from you is a big, fat $0.

Also, there aren't enough hardcore fighting gamers to keep arcades alive. It's sad, I know, and I agree with you mostly, but that's just the reality of it. More people play Disgaea these days. And a LOT more people play First Person Shooters. And Doom (much like SFII) is still better than Doom 3 (much like the EX series).

Basically, SFIV had better rock some fucking socks off and I hope it does. Because the genre is on budget life support now. An IV Drip from coconuts.

(http://doylez.com/img/shoryuken.jpg)

I completely disagree there. SF EX is not a bad game, you need to come up with reasons why EX sucks before you can devalue it. It was poorly received but it is a completely solid, playable fighting game. The graphics were pretty muh and I can give you that, but the game played well.

Guilty Gear is poorly received, does that mean it sucks too? Rival Schools? Maximum impact 1 and 2? KOF Neowave? KOF 98 on the Dreamcast?

By your Definition, KOF 2006 should have been really well received, it is pretty , easy to play and good. But you and I both know where that went.   

Fighting games in general are on life support, there was no SF for so long cause no one plays them. No company besides SNK put out more poorly received great fighting games than Capcom. SO SF is on life support cause people stopped playing fighting games and it is because they are unforgiving little shits. Fighting games are hard and unrewarding unless you are good. No BS, no casual friendly crap. There has to be some safe haven for that kind of old school game playing mentality.

You're missing the point.

Guilty Gear, Rival Schools, MI1 & 2, Neowave and even 98 are fun and interesting for beginners who give them any kind of shot whatsoever. Anyone can get into them a bit. Hell, some of them may STAY WITH THE GENRE afterwards because of them.

EX sold for absolute shite, was not friendly to a goddamn person, was fucking ugly (you're damn right it was) and gave no reason to play it over the original SNES release of Street Fighter 2.

It's crap. You know it's crap. There's no reason whatsoever to play it. There's no reason to have ever owned it, even for completion. It's an embarassment to everyone involved. Please, I don't enjoy talking about bad MMOGs and I don't make any excuses. I don't even make excuses for bad RPGs or turnbased titles anymore. I don't see why you're wasting time with this.


You bastard, editing while I'm typing.

The good fighting games are rewarding a the extremely noob level. They are, in fact, the reason fighting games are still made. The Soul Caliburs, DOAs and such. At least for America, Japan is a completely different story. Honestly, unless you have some crazy motherfucker from Shoryuken funding you, releasing a fighting game that noobs can't enjoy is retarded. Or put simply: You've forgotten the pure fun of it, I think, given your "unrewarding unless you are good" comment. And it makes it impossible to talk to you - at least online - about fighting games.

Well I can completely agree that EX was very unapproachable, especially EX3. I also agree that a fighting game not being noob friendly is also a hard sell. But a fighting game that is just hard to get into and play not doing well is not unheard of. VF for the longest time was both not eh prettiest 3d fighter and the best 3d fighter for some time. Just recently are people all over how pretty and fun it is. But VF is unforgiving and hard as shit. That game is one of, if not the hardest games to get into. But a game being hard to get into does not make it bad. Seriously you can say you think EX sucks all day, but they didn't suck. They were good fighting games, albeit hard to play. But look at the source, Arika (Akira Nishitani) Ex Capcom, one of the original SF designers, he wanted it to be more old school with big combos and such, and made it that way. It is tough to play and get into, but it is rewarding when you play with other people. I guess I was just lucky enough to be around the fighting game community all my life so there as never a shortage of people to play fighting games with, even if they were ugly, complicated games. EX still had the easy pick up and play stuff, but it was slower paced at the novice level and picked up as you got better. Unfortunately the graphics were not a style that sat right with people so it fell on its face. Again Good game, poorly received. It may not belong in your collection, but you can bet your ass that as a lover of good fighting games, I own all 3 and still play them. Now quit talking smack about SFEX. if it wasn't for Nishitani leaving and starting Arika and making the EX games and them selling well in Japan, you wouldn't have precious Tetris Grandmaster stuff...Same guy...   

Uh, actually, I'll just say it again.

EX sucked. Being around a fighting community where people can and will play anything doesn't magically make a shitty game good. You seem to be talking about EX in a vacuum. Now why the hell would you do that? There are 50 better fighting games worth playing _all_the_time_.

Good thing the japanese will buy fucking anything. And good thing Nishitani stopped with EX and made Grandmaster. Why? Because EX sucked.

Schild: Well apparently you know some information I don't, so you tell me why did the EX series suck?

Because it wasn't fun? At all? And offered nothing against it's contemporaries? Which is pretty much the definition of suckage.

Kind of like Tabula Rasa. It has all the trapping of a Sci-Fi RPG, but it sucks.
Or Stella Deus - all the trappings of a good SRPG - but it sucks.

Basically, you can't make something FUN again with depth that 1% of the players will see. That's the OPPOSITE of good game design.

I think that designing games for idiots is this industries problem. As opposed to showing the players what they can do and helping them achieve that, they choose to set the bar lower. It is not Arika's fault that EX series was terribly received. The game has all the same game play of the other SF stuff in addition to a bunch of advanced stuff. If people choose to get that good, great, if not, that is fine too. The game did poorly cause it was ugly and slower paced, that is it. In my opinion it made up for it with interesting and fun game play elements. You can sit here and talk shit about the games fighting systems all day long, but you are wrong cause you don't know how to play it, and therefore can't make an educated decision about it. You don't like it, that is fine, but you are not informed about what the game does or how it plays enough to make a valid argument as to how good of a game it is.   

Ugly and Slower Paced is enough to send it down the suckhole. Especially after we've seen hyper versions of SF.

Yea, I'm wrong because the one time I played it it wasn't fun enough to ever go back to. I'm not going to learn about a piece of shit. I don't see where you don't understand that. I don't waste time with games to make a valid argument against them unless it's NECESSARY. It's not necessary with fighting games. Ever. That is a waste of my time and your own.

MvC2 was always a little too hyper-kinetic for my tastes. Way too many linked air combo stunlock bullshit stuff. I really, really enjoyed the random fringe characters they added, like Jill Valentine and Amingo. Fun for button mashing and playing totally drunk at Gameworks.

SF3:TS was complete perfection. Every character could beat the other once you learned the nuances of your range and abilities. Parrys were brilliant and the timing of them felt exact. You knew exactly why you missed one. The way you peeled away new strategy and insight in that game was unparalleled, IMO.

Naw I enjoyed the time I spent with that game. Between that and Tekken Tag, and Gradius IV, PS2 launch owned me. Those were all really fun games for me. Anyway, we are not gonna convince each other so whatever. 

Jobu: 3rd Strike is not perfectly balanced. Quit lying to yourself.

See, I bought a PS2 for GT3:ASpec. Probably as good as GT will ever be. Which breaks my heart. But you know what, it doesn't matter if we don't agree on EX. Because neither of us are ever gonna play it again and we will stomp eachothers ass in VF5 on the 360 and play on the cabs. >_>

I don't even know why people would talk about EX. It's like talking about Dark and Light. There's just no point.

I will play ex again, I will play it on Saturday actually, with a little bit of 3rd Strike, KOF 11 and GGAC.

Yeah, but Akuma is a cheap piece of shit in every game, so he doesn't count.

You're gonna play EX on Saturday next to Third Strike?

Remember what we talked about the other day? Your tolerance for shit is lower than mine?

Proof in the pudding. No one should play those games back to back. Nobody.

It's not a personal thing, I think the same thing of people who blamed me for SWG even though I hadn't even resubbed because promises weren't met.

Ha, Your the only one who thinks it's that bad though. All the EX games were well reviewed minus EX3, which was poorly reviewed because it was too much of the same...Too much of the same stuff I liked already... Anyway, I like those games..

No what were you talking about? SWG?

HAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Forlorn hope indeed. That trailer was shit hot, design wise, but that won't be gameplay.

Which makes it totally irrelevent, they should have just stuck with a press release.

Yes.

I'm really happy they had a trailer. Ideally should have something to show sooner or later. I would like to see how they approach this game. Also there is still not confirmation of who is working on the game. Seth Killian says that the "developers" are watching the forums at Capcom Unity and the Street Fighter World Site so it makes me think that it is Capcom America. But I have heard a lot of sources say it is all in Japan. I am not too sure what is going on with that.

Haemishm: It is possible that the game can play like that, just not likely. But I would love it if it was that dynamic and fluid.

I'm with Velorath on this one, and I am a hardcore SF fan.

Capcom games recently have been a very mixed bag. They don't bring a whole lot of new stuff to the table. MVC2 was great but their other recent games have failed to impress. (Capcom vs. SNK 2, Capcom Fighting Jam, etc)

Part of the great thing about SF2 was that when it came out it was new, there wasn't a serious competitive fighting game at the time. There was a lot of wonder and a lot of discovery. Now a lot of tricks and combos are discovered in the first 4 hours.

You can't recapture old magic by doing the exact same thing, part of the old magic was the novelty and newness.

I'll hope for the best but I'll plan for mediocre. Remember that the first SF3 game was utter crap, and even the most recent one is merely good.

Having seen the trailer... Street Fighter IV: Okami?

Rumor is it's 2D, hi-def, 16x9, and is PS3, 360 and Arcade. Will run on Taito Type-X2 hardware (odd choice considering the new PS3 hardware out there, but there's an arcade install base for Taito Type X2 whatwith the SNK support and Castle Shikigami in that hizzouse).

Anyway.

Yea. Good juju.

Not hating.  I love both MVC games.  Hell, I've enjoyed most of the Street Fighter stuff to some extent or another (with the obvious exceptions of the EX games which rank right down there with the Street Fighter the Movie game).  That said, yeah, I still think almost every SF game is pretty casual friendly (not sure why Hammer seems to think that's a bad thing), unless you happen to play at arcades where hardcore guys like Hammer Frenzy play, who from the sound of it will likely give themselves an erection by mercilessly beating the shit out of you instead of trying to help you become a better player.  The moves are all pretty easy to learn and use (much moreso than most 3D fighters), and if you're playing at home or going to the arcade with friends, chances are you know at least one or two people around your skill level that you can have decent fights with.  SFII to me was the ultimate casual fighting game.  I don't know any gamer who didn't play it, even if they never bothered to play another fighting game after that.

People liked SF3?  To me it was the sequel that came years too late, after everyone who wasn't an asian kid with a twitch had quit paying attention amid a sea of nigh-indistinguishable revisions.

Please to be showing actual gameplay frottage before I am to be excited or giving of the fuck.

Velorath: Is there some reason you are being a douche with me?  :-(  Really, I like fighting games, I have my own opinion about them, I have taught so many people how to play many fighting games, and for some strange reason you have this idea that I am out to discourage people from playing fighting games or that I think that SF is the hardest thing in the world to play. I agree it is easy to get into. I don't think that is a bad thing at all, in fact that is the draw. But SF and most good fighting games have some very complicated execution/strategy focused game play scenarios that novice players don't pick up very often. It is not that I think that most people are incapable of getting good or playing at a high level, it is that most game players don't take many or any of their games that seriously. The amount of players who get to play at an advanced level in fighting games is unfortunately much lower than in other game types, only equaled by puzzle games, shooters and some FPS games. The truth is that among the actual community that plays a particular fighting game, a novice player is going to be much less skilled than the rest of the community. Fighting games just take more time to get good at and unfortunately you also need to have people to play with...that are at least as good if not better than you to remain competitive. Now if you are talking about, sitting around, throwing some fireballs and punching some faces for shits and giggles, then yes, most fighting games will allow you to do that and have some fun. But the accessabilty of street fighter and pretty much all fighting games is pretty deceiving. All fighting games have to have that element of twitch game play, where your actions are immediately seen on screen and result in positive or negative outcomes, but that is really elementary stuff. I am sure you are good at fighting games cause you don't sound like you are terribly uninformed, but it also seems like you are oversimplifying SF's complexity, while I may be over complicating it, either way, SF is at its core a very unforgiving and strategy/execution heavy game at both the intermediate and  advanced level.

If you want to get into why more players don't play at a high level, it's because after you beat the computer, the difficulty curve for getting better is entirely dependent on the people you have available to play against.  The best way to get better at a game like this is to go against players just above your skill level, but unless you have some well organized community at the local arcade, this isn't realistic for most people.  Most people will never develop a skill level much higher than the circle of friends that they play with, and it will likely remain this way until the point when ranked online play is viable in most games without lag being a major factor.

Velorath: I would agree with you if I hadn't seen more than a few communities come out of nothing in a relatively short amount of time. I think that at one point people were into getting better at fighting games. It seems like now, it is just much less common. It is so effortless to just play something else online and stuff. When fighting games were at their peak, no other games provided that kind of interaction with other players, or built communities around getting better at a game or group of games. Now many games can provide that and the less forgiving nature of fighting games seems to be less attractive to most gamers. It is weird, you would think that a game like DOA4, would help that out, seeing as it is much easier of a game to play, but even the DOA community is kinda weak. As much as I would love a healthy online community for a new SF game, I have to admit, there is nothing like sitting next to you opponent at home or in an arcade, and it is a real shame that that aspect of fighting games is less and less prevalent. I am hard pressed to believe that SF would blow up if the new title had some awesome online mode. I think that it would have a following, but not the following and player base that SF had back in the day.     

Welcome to the Crotchey Old Gamer's Club!

DOA's problem is that it's marketing revolves entirely around the T&A.  The only time I ever hear anyone talk about the gameplay, it's to say that the DOA series is nowhere near as good as Virtua Fighter, Tekken, or even Soul Calibur (which also has a reputation for being more casual friendly).

Obviously SF will never have the same player base it had back in the old days.  Back when SFII came out, it didn't have any competition, but now the market is segemented into Virtua Fighter fans, Tekken fans, etc..., and a lot of them only play their series of choice.  I think a decent online community could potentially help the arcade market somewhat, as someone who practices online might feel more confident about going down to the arcade and testing his skill against the local players.  Failing that, maybe Nintendo could make a Pokemon fighting game to get people back into the arcades (especially if they could get exclusive Pokemon for their DS games by winning 50 matches or something).  Personally though, I'd rather see Rare make a new Killer Instinct game.

Nintendo owns Killer Instinct.
Microsoft owns Rare.
Rare owns nothing. And makes mediocre games.

Shame really. I wanna see a next-gen orchid. Surely her tits will be perfect squares.

Man everyone is waiting for Rare to do something with that. Really though, KI2 and Gold were so wonky that it may never happen.

Well, then I'd like to see Nintendo do another Killer Instinct (just so long as they don't go crazy with the waggle controls), which is ok since Viva Pinata is about the best Rare seems capable of these days anyway.

Edit:  And actually, now that I think about it, how come Nintendo has never released an Arcade version of Smash Bros.?  That would seem to have the potential to draw people into the arcades.

- waggle
- chibi
- no online, or friend codes, which may be the same thing

Rare can still make games for Nintendo systems so they can still make another KI. It is just not likely, Also, Rare still owns KI if I remember correctly. They kept much of their intellectual property IE Conker, (which came out on Xbox)  Banjo, (whom was removed from (Diddy Kong Racing on the DS, along with Conker) Perfect Dark and KI. Recently, Rare was asked if they would make another KI and they didn't say never, they just said not at the moment, so I think they still won that ish... Also they still own Mr. Pants...Can't forget Mr. Pants....Am I the only one who bought that? I don't think it released here....

(http://img.jeuxactu.com/datas/images/editeurs/Capcom/photos/xl/1192733069-42.jpg)

First in game SFIIHD pic.

Hot.

What the hell are you talking about? Rare is a Microsoft Games Studio. It is first party. Microsoft OWNS them.

Also: Owner     (REGISTRANT) Nintendo of America Inc. CORPORATION WASHINGTON 4820 - 150th Avenue N.E. Redmond WASHINGTON 98052

So, uh, anything else?

Yeah I saw that...Why are Ryu's feet off the screen.... :| Looks kinda plain..I was hoping more interface prettiness. Oh well, I will still buy it.

Schild: Viva Pinata DS????

And yes, Rare still owns Some of the stuff they did while with Nintendo.  Again. Conker, Banjo, Perfect Dark, Jet Force, KI
http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/26/rare-squashes-killer-instinct-3-rumor-that-we-didnt-know-exist/

Quit being a dick. They still own Sabrewulf, which was part of KI. They can still make KI. Anywhere.

UI is most certainly placeholder. Now read my post above this one.

MS has Rare doing a Viva Pinata game for the DS (of course MS doesn't have it's own horse in the handheld race yet), so there is an insignificantly small possibility they could work something out if they really wanted to.

You just quoted joystiq?

herro

they'd have to license it from Nintendo to publish it IN AMERICA, WHERE WE ARE. Who cares if they own it on the island they inhabit?


i like this phrasing.

Also, you said it, Microsoft has no stake in handhelds and the DS stuff is pure money grab. Just like Every Single Third Party Wii Game. Which is interested, because no one gives a shit about Viva Pinata >_>

I would like to note that I agree with Hammer that the SFII screenshot looks plain, maybe it's better in motion.

This is also the worst thread ever, keep arguing!

Clearly you haven't spent enough time in the Politics forum.  Or read any thread with SWG in the title.

Naysayer.

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=o278qe.2.11

Note the "dead"
And the "canceled"

Rare owns the rights to all their games.  :roll:

SF2:HD is just redrawn at higher res, so that is what it looks like: SF2 at higher res.

His feet are off the screen maybe because to support widescreen they are doing some sort of screen panning thing.

Killer Instinct will forever have a special place in my heart.  I met friends playing that game online (via Xband modem) who I'm still close with to this day.  I had a record of 212-64.  It would have been higher if that stupid 'random select' feature hadn't kept me from being TJ Combo all the time.

And why AREN'T there online fighting games?  Lag?  I was playing Killer Instinct on an SNES with a dial-up modem and it basically worked all right.  The level of performance wouldn't have been up to snuff for tournaments or anything, but this was like 1996.  There's this thing called broadband now.

Margelis: His feet are off the screen cause the camera pans up as player jump. (Confirmed by David Sirlin)

Wind Up: Yeah the X Band stuff was great,Weaponlord played really well on that too. At the time that was a peer to peer style connection, so it worked good back then, now with XBL and PSN they connect to servers and all that crap. I am surprised that there has been no good fighting game net-coding. Other than GGPO of course.

On another note.

Ponder from SRK (shoryuken.com) actually wrote his own net-coding service called GGPO, it is seriously fucking awesome. It really IS lagless fighting game net coding. Right now it supports SF Alpha 2 and some other stuff. there was talk that maybe Backbone would license it from Ponder but that was a no go, look it up, try it out, it is really good, then post at capcom's forum so they can get that shit in there. 

Look at the ovals in the background next to/behind Ryu. Aren't they supposed to be circles?

There are online fighting games. SF, MK, DOA, Tekken. But broadband still isn't enough for some of the 3D titles. Just a few milliseconds of lag can make you lose. Hell, I suspect that SFIIHD Remix (the screeny above) is just about the limit, and that's still 2D. It's more demanding than you think.

That screeny looks like street fighter 2 with updated graphics. Pass. How can you get so riled up?

Because Super Street Fighter 2 is one of the best games ever made?

This thread needs some Trammel.

I'd play SFIV, simply because it is SFIV and my friends will be playing it. I'd say I have a few friends who are schild/hammer hardcore when it comes to fighting games and I agree with what hammer said earlier about a community forming out of nothing. My friends and I used to play Soul Calibur II competitively and we consistently got our asses whipped by these two guys who were some of the best in Florida. But we had a really, really good time because we all played it together. I really think that is all you need, generally, to have a lot of fun with a fighting game.

Carry on.

Didn't rare make conkers bad fur day? Thats a great IP right there, lol..good fun.

The best fighting game ever was on Sega with that 32x attachments, i just don't recall its name (It was a long night last night), but you could choose parts and armor for different parts of your body that would then open up other moves...

Bhodi: Super Turbo is arguably one of if not the best 2d fighting games ever made. It is very balanced and very deep and sees heavy competition to this day. At high level play there was some silliness with top tier characters and their dominance over the rest of the cast, as well as certain moves and combos etc that characters had in previous titles that would have been awesome to have in that version (Hyper Fighting Blanka Vertical Ball I am looking at you.) SO with the re-release of the game with all new sprites, the game is also getting an overall re-balance to the character list, by actual good players. It should be interesting. Fighting game enthusiasts are excited to see such a great game get an update, cause if it works it will breath new life into an already overbearingly awesome game.

Cmlancas: Yeah, building a community of players for a game is freaking cool. I think that the community aspect of fighting games is probably what I like so much about them, that and the skill that the competition breeds makes for some awesome fights.

PS: Schild sucks at fighting games. ZING!   :-P

Bloodworth:I think you are talking about Cosmic Carnage. I was a big VF player on the 32x, it was a solid port.

Schild: Super Street Fighter 2 was not one of the best fighting games ever made. Super Turbo was. Don't get them mixed up.

Why isn't anyone talking about Shaq Fu yet? Clay Fighter? Primal Rage?

Eternal Champions

You seem to live to derail and annoy, but I will hit on two of those.

I actually played Primal Rage, if that game would have had more time in the oven and maybe a couple of sequels, it could have become a pretty good fighting game. It was alright for fun as it was, but there as an amazing amount of BS in that game. It looked damn cool for its time though. I used Vertigo and Talon.

If they wouldhave released the sequel it would have been fun I think, the whole story was something like the monsters could no longer fight each other, so they had a human representative fight for them and the human can morph into the monster as a special and fight like that...that may have been fun...

I was actually into Clay Fighter only cause it was so silly and it was a fun party fighting game. I played it a lot on the SNES and have the tournament edition and the Blockbuster Exclusive Tournament Edition 63 and 1/3 laying around somewhere. It was fun for shits and giggles. I thought the 64 version, Clay Fighter 63 1/3 was funny as hell, it made fun of fighting game stuff like combos and junk, as your combos got higher, they had increasingly funnier names for them., like lame combo and stupid combo, higher ones were called little girlie combos. Ja....Classic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eo3buC2MJkQ

Last, Eternal Champions was the bomb. ESPECIALLY the Sega CD version. That game was HUGE. All kinds of characters and it played pretty decently. Fun stuff. That game had some fucking insane combos. I used Rax and Larson, I dabbled with Xavier. Man Xavier could do some insane shit with the teleporting and freezing shit. He was fun. It sucks that series got the ax. There as an interview with Michael Lanthem who was on the design team, (I always wonder what happened to this guy, he helped on VF also, but did a fighting game for Activision on the Genesis called Tongue of the Fat Man, Later Renamed Mondu's Fight Palace, This is when I heard about it, Then released as Slaughter Sport. It was kinda lame, but it played. I still have it laying around...) and Sega of Japan, (Eternal Champions was made in the States) kinda cock blocked the sequel that was supposed to be on the Saturn cause it was gonna compete with VF 2 or some shit.. The interview was interesting. The relationship between the Japanese dev teams and the US dev team was freaking weird.

Thats the one. Best fighting game ever.

(http://www.sega-16.com/Reviews/32X/Cosmic%20Carnage/1.jpg)

(http://www.thedirks.org/thegirls/erica-yawn-20030521.jpg)

Did someone say something bad? What was that for?

QFT

Yeah, I thought that Powerstone comment was stupid, but to each his own... :roll:

You left out Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Tournament Fighters.

There is still a dedicated, albeit terribly small scene for TMNT:TF (for the SNES) They are almost all east coast players, they have a thread at SRK and a bunch of tourny/match vids on youtube. The SNES TMNT:TF was pretty good and fun.

I enjoyed it, although now I don't remember if it's because it was a good game or if it was just because I liked TMNT back then.  I think it's biggest downside was that they only put Casey Jones in the Genesis game.

Also, it looks like Capcom is saying that SFIV is still more than a year off (not really surprising anybody I'm sure), and that they haven't decided yet what systems they'll be releasing on.

Powerstone any 3 videogame-competent friends could sit down be told: "yah you can interact with almost any part of the map, get the crystals and you become uber" hand them a DC controler and have hella fun playing 4 players and anyone stood a chance of winning.

I call that 100% no strings attached fun.

Hoax: That is fine if you think that. But you are wrong. Flat out. Power Stone was not as good as any SF game. You keep playing it though, if you are having fun that is all that matters.

Is there any way we can get Hammer Frenzy to wear this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071019/tc_afp/lifestyleusithealthgame;_ylt=AvERh8QSdBezWcYz0B.RiRcjtBAF) and somehow attach it to this thread for it's input?

That's exactly what it is  - an HD redrawn SF2. That isn't a SFIV pic, it's a pic of SSFT2T:HD

Who the hell is this chump?  :x

Who cares I just helped keep your precious SF4 thread alive for a couple more days.  After seeing you post the same response for the 3rd time I figured you needed some help with that.

That's a good thing though. SF artwork hasn't been updated in awhile. Now all the old faves will look better than GG

Salamok: What the hell is your problem jerk-wad? No one asked you to post in here so get lost scum bag.  :roll:

Stray: I am happy they are redoing the art. It looks pretty good so far. There was a couple of stinkers they put out (sprites) but so far it looks like it will be nice. They also mentioned that the GUI is going to be completely redone and that the music is also getting an overhaul. If the net coding is good, this title will be a monster.

You can rest assured his daugther is being crushed under an endless stream of pumpkins.

We should have a f13 SF2 tourney with that fantastic netcode you're talking about and see who has the right to force their fighting game opinion upon the masses. (I realize the netcode probably doesn't work for SF2)

Well given the merest hint of a whiff of vapor that sparked this thread I would say it would be more appropriate that we all sit down and create our own anime that describes how we might kick everyone else's ass in a game that solely exists in our imagination.

Yeah, I was definately happy when they brought in UDON to re-do the characters.

Ooki: I am not forcing my opinion on anyone. I stated what I like and what I think about games that have been brought up. When people went on about how SF EX games suck I said I like them, and they can like whatever they want. When people said Power Stone was better than SF I disagreed and then said they can like whatever they want. I am not trying to tell people what they need to play and what is good and bad. I just like talking about fighting games, and you know better than most people here do, I play anything, but especially fighting games, so it is not like I an trying to be jerk.

Salamok: this has nothing to do with whether or not we can beat each other at whatever random fighting game, it is a thread about the announcement of SF IV. There may be speculation and talk about other franchises and other SF games, You just came out of nowhere with you asshole laser. Cut your shit, if you want to talk fighting games that is cool, if you are just gonna jump in and be a punk, get lost.

!=


You elitist moron.  Don't get me wrong I see and understand the appeal of tourney level no-scrubs-allowed play.  I've been involved in it playing Tribes1, TA & some other rts's, table top games etc.  But if you tried to l2read you would have noticed the point I was making about Powerstone is it IS FUN FOR EVERYONE PLAYING AGAINST ANYONE.  You really can't be a total scrub in Powerstone unless you just suck at games entirely.

But in your mind only tournament level EXTREME HARDCORE gaming seems to exist.  You missed the key point, nobody said "good" we said "fun".  Which makes you an idiot, idiot.

Seems very much like you are trying to tell people what is good and bad.  Also, seems like you have enough experience in the fighting game niche to present a respectable informed opinion on the matter.  So I am not sure why you are getting so defensive about it.

I came here to post what I thought was a somewhat relevent peice of gaming hardware in a usefully cynical manner.  

I guess I wasn't relevent, useful or cynical enough so point taken you can quit being a complete jack assnow, i'll slink off quietly as I don't care quite enough about the genre to belabor it's points with a raving fanatic.

Powerstone is just a different experience.

Hoax: Correct you did say it would never be as fun, or more so you "QFT"  :roll: Look they are different kinds of games but if you want to go tit for tat you know that a huge majority of people that play SF play casually, so they are playing for fun. I believe that, as I stated before, novice level SF is really fun as is intermediate and advanced level SF. MANY MANY MANY more people play SF for fun than PS so get that out of your head. The numbers are there, but liking PS is not bad at all. I love PS but I think that PS is not as good as Sf at a low level of play or a high level of play. I think this cause no one plays it and no one cares if it makes a comeback or not. No one jumped to get PS for the PSP, and as shitty as that is, it is because people just don't play it as much, but people keep buying SF games, and they play the hell out of them, and most of them are casual players just having fun.

I don't in any way think that SF is only for high level play. I have a LOT of friends who only play casually and that is cool. i would rather have a batch fuck of casual players who may decide to practice and get better, keep playing and eventually raise their skill level, rather than a small dedicated group that is good but doesn't expand and find new players. It would be counter productive for me to only think about fighting games at a high level play.

Listen you can call me all the names you want, I haven't told  you are an idiot, an elitist moron or a fucking punk scrub who plays PS cause he can't hang in SF. Cause that is not true, you play what is fun for you, and that is cool. Really, I only post here cause so many gamers shy away from fighting games, ESPECIALLY playing at a higher level in fighting games. And I DO think it is because assholes at the arcade busted asses and took names assuming it was the best thing to do, rather than teach others to play and grow the community. But I am willing to play ANY fighting game with ANYONE just cause I like fighting games so damn much.

So I am sorry if you think I am being an ass with you, but I think I can say that I think someone is wrong about something.

But let me phrase it in a way that would sound as jerky.

I don't like PS nearly as much as SF.  In my opinion it is not nearly as good of a game as SF at any level of play. But all that matters is you have fun, and I am glad you enjoy playing it.

Yeah, but it's a franchise that has so far only appeared on the Dreamcast and the PSP.  Of course nobody is playing it.

Velorath: It had a good run in the arcade in Japan and a PC release. Regardless, It would never have done well because of the other casual fighting games. It is a shame really cause it was fun.

I wouldn't say that it could never have done well, I just think it came at the wrong time and on the wrong system.  If they improved on the formula a bit and threw in more recognizable characters like they did with the SF Vs. games, it would almost be like a Capcom version of Smash Bros. in a lot of ways.

I think that they would really have to refine the system heavily cause Smash is a whole lot deeper and more complete of a game than PS. I think that a party brawler with some depth with a bunch of Capcom characters would be awesome though. I know they kinda tried the party brawler/ platformer thing with that Onimusha Blade Warriors, which from what I heard was pretty poor. I think throwing in characters from cool games like Strider,Megaman, Bionic Commando, Resident Evil, Deviil May Cry, God Hand Etc. They could get some awesome stuff going, ESPECIALLY if the game play was really simple but fun, balanced and deep at the high level. (if you wish to play that way) I would really like it if it was like a mix of SF and Smash, and fast...With teams! Ja ja.... :inluv:

LOL.

It's for this reason that I consider traditional fighting games to be one of the most regressive genres around - and why I give much more respect to more progressively-designed fighters like the Smash Brothers series (though the discovery of glitch techniques in SSBM, such as wavedashing, and some clownshoes-level balance issues fucked that one up in a lot of ways that Brawl will hopefully rectify).

A game that simply expects *you* to put in the time and initiative to improve - practicing arcane techniques, fighting other similarly obsessive mouthbreathers in an arcade somewhere - is inherent fail.  If the mechanics don't actively encourage a casual player to learn from experience and intuitively improve their skills and their game, your game has failed.

Games that stop pretending there's something even remotely impressive about a player putting in 'practice hours' and such to win at them and start worrying about facilitating fun are where the future is at.  Frankly, I think the reason the fighting genre has been so slow to adapt is due to the gaming culture in Japan where so many of these games are produced.  I've lived in Japan and observed their fighting game 'scene', and there are few more pathetic things I've seen in my life.  (Though the national tournament scene that's developed around Smash Bros Melee once UB4R M3CH4N1C5 were discovered comes close)

Have you never seen the Madden tournaments?  Just.  Eww.

Of course, but keep in mind that the last Power Stone game to come out in the arcade or on a console was in 2000, so of course at this point, Smash is much more of a complete game.  If I'm not mistaken, the PSP game is just a collection of the 2 games, so I'm guessing the gameplay wasn't changed much if at all there.  It would require a lot of reworking, but the framework is there to do something comparable.

Look! Someone read this thread, and made a comic about it!
God Mode (http://www.godmodeonline.com/d/20071019.html)

Wow, so I just read through some of God Mode.

It's really, terribly unfunny.

Same, some drawn boobies made me try to read sorethumbs later, and that sucked possibly even worse.  Bad webcomics are bad.

My girlfriend used to be a fan of Sore Thumbs, so she'd link me every so often and I remember it being pithy and amusing.  AFAIK they've been in a relatively humorless rut for a year or so, but I checked in to the most recent ones and this one was decent (http://sorethumbsonline.com/d/20071008.html), at least.  I think they did some  reboot of the series that changed everything for the worse.

These days I read PBF (http://pbfcomics.com/archive/PBF211-Atlantis.jpg) and Dinosaur Comics (http://www.qwantz.com/archive/000756.html), and that's about it.  Very few people doing interesting things with webcomics these days.

That comic was kinda lame, but it is true that a majority of forums that are talking about this game are really mixed as to what to what they want and what to expect. I hope for the best.

Big Black: Wow, I think you miss the whole reason fighting games are fun. It is fun to play with your friends and almost all fighting games allow that. Unfortunately and fortunately, people get better as they play more. If you make high level techniques set ups and strats easily accessible, it can break game play. To this day I only think that Tekken and Soul Calibur have casual/expert level game play working decently together without completely wrecking the higher level game.

I agree with you that SB is a good way to allow casual fighting game players to get into competitive fighting/brawling games. But it is a bad example. SM is fucking insane at intermediate/high level play. More so than other games because high level play is composed of mostly advanced input techniques and what not. Attempting to explain Wave dashing and L-canceling and dash dancing and the importance of short jump laser, fast fall for Falco's lock down game is way more work than just explaining stuff in Tekken or Soul Calibur. I think this is cause a lot of upper level techniques are just strategic implementation of what you already know in games like SF, KOF, VF, and Tekken, but in SB you are having to teach them new and more complicated ways of doing what they already know to produce results that are nearly invisible to the casual player, but ultimately can help decide the outcome of matches.

Look at it this way, You will see the occasional Hugo, Q, Remy victory over a Ken, Yun, Chun Li in a Third Strike tourny or casual play, but you will NEVER see a person with with a non wave dashing Mario or Luigi, or non L-canceling Ganondorf beat an advanced level ANYTHING in SB.

Last, I disagree the whole practicing and getting better at fighting games make them suck.And calling people who play fighting games well mouth breathers is kinda pompous. All game genres require you to practice and get better if you want to consistently beat better players. It is silly to assume that you should be able to beat someone that has a better understanding of their character, their match ups and has better execution than you, simply cause you think you know more about fighting or fighting games or cause you think your execution s good. The better player should win all the time unless they play poorly and the less skilled player takes advantage of punishment situations. Game play like as you describe requires an unbalance of risk/reward situations.

Games that play like you mention.. DOA 1-4 fail to attract a large crowd simply because they over-reward players that take advantage of these punishment situations and break the game down to repetitive mix-up, force choice situations. 

I understand your view of the hardcore fighting game scene, but it is not all like Japan. Those guys have a different fighting game community than the states do, and they are willing to put in the time to learn the game inside and out and get their execution down. They win cause they are better, and they are better cause they play like fucking crazy. I can see that this looks lame but all good competitive games are like this. competitive sports, FPS, fighting, RTS, puzzle, all of them have this kind of uber-hardcore scene, but you don't HAVE to play like that to be good or great. But you will if you want to beat those people. But luckily that is not what a majority of fighting game players are doing. They just want to be better than, or keep up with their community and that is not hard to do, nor does it require some ungodly amount of practice time.

I for one appreciate that these games don't put a cap on how good I can get, and allow for advancement based on your knowledge of the game. This is why people still play Super Turbo, 3rd Strike, KOF 98 and old fighting games. Cause you can still get good. This goes for other games like Tetris, Puyo Puyo, Puzzle Fighter, Counter Strike, Starcraft and Madden.   

By the way, I think that PBF is fucking great.

Edit: Yes, I know this is a bit of brucing (sowwy), but I felt like I took sentences that got to the core of his points that I wanted to argue against.  Hope nobody thinks I'm taking his argument in bad faith.


No, no I don't.  Remind me which one of us is the obsessive, again?


You're missing the point again.  The idea isn't to 'allow' casual players to get into 'competitive' games.  The point is the erase the distinction between the two entirely.


I already mentioned this, though it's really not quite as bad as you make it out to be -- my girlfriend, the most casual of casual smashers, gets the concept of pillaring with Falco and drillshines with fox even if she can't come close to pull them off.

Again, as I said, it looks like they'll be fixing this for Brawl.


This is simply not true.  Fighting games are one of the very few genres that makes its controls non-intuitive enough to require practice.  You simply play, and you progress through doing.  Seriously - how fucking retarded is it that you have to press -> | \ Punch to do a Shoryuken?  These are the kind of things that should have been phased out years ago.


Er, no.  This is where Smash Brothers finally "got it", and where the tournament scene promptly did their best to 'un-get-it'.  The inclusion of items, stage elements you couldn't control, and just plain *luck* into the process made the game inherently more fun.

Video games are not interesting as a pure 'test of skill', since if you want a test of 'true skill', that's what the real world is for -- you can go out there and test your skill at something that actually fucking matters.  The idea of a video-game that requires you to put the same level of effort into it to succeed as you would into something that actually matters is inherent fail.


They also fail at life.  Winning at a video game and failing at life are not equivalent things.  And no, I'm not saying "If you're putting enough time into these video games to get good, you must be a loser with no womanfolk" or anything of the sort.  I'm saying that any video-game that asks you to apply yourself in order to 'get good' in the same way that you'd have to to succeed at something in real life inherently fails the notion of what a video game should be -- in the same way a grindy MMO does.


There's no inherent reason that a game still having a 'scene' after a decade makes it 'better'.  I'm all in favor of a relatively low 'cap' on how far you can progress, where after that point it's more a matter of luck, happenstance, and being imperfect.  And then, by the time you and all your friends are perfect and it's no fun anymore?  You can play a different fucking game.

The fun of a fighting game (or of any game) is in the mere act of playing, not in the improving.  Getting your jollies from becoming 'better' at something that has zero bearing on the real world is... broken somehow.

Fuck, at least if you practice to get 'better' at soccer, you'll get a decent work-out out of it, maybe improve some real-life motor skills.


On this, we agree.

Big Black: I think that the whole, low cap on games and failing at life thing we will have to disagree on. I know plenty of friends who are insanely good at fighting games and have very active social lives and hold down great jobs. Most fighting games don't ask much time, people choose to give that time. There is nothing wrong with a game being deep, there is something wrong with people who choose to focus all their time on learning everything about these games as opposed to allowing the community as a whole to learn the game and share the information, thereby making the community better at the game as a whole, which is how it was when we were growing up playing in the arcade.   Anyway, many games have the input barrier you are mentioning, and while you say your girlfriend is very causal but understands high level SB but can't execute it, that is exactly the point. I think that fighting games strive to both have strategic, meta-game and physical execution based game play. When you look at fighting games, there is almost always a series of "tiers" of fighters based on player skill both strategically, (using a characters various techniques to force situations and attain victory) and players that play better at the input/execution style game -play, (characters with various combos and moves and repeated patterns to win with.) A good example of this is Jacky and Pai from VF. They are relatively much easier to play as characters like Vanessa and Shun Di And especially Akira, but still hold their own against the other fighters. Players don't really have to sink an enormous amount of time getting good and will be able to hang in with pretty decent players.

I am assuming that what you want is easy accessibility to high level stuff for all players, kinda getting rid of the execution part of the formula and focusing more on using techniques and strats, putting more emphasis on who is better at fighting if technique and execution were not a factor. Although I think that this is a pretty cool concept, I am not too sure how his would be implemented. For example, VF has some pretty simple input commands, with the exception of say Akira who has some pretty tough move inputs. The hard part of VF is the sheer amount of situations that a player is put into and the vast amount of ways the player can attempt to defend, counter or escape. The forced situations and the various weighted options make the game deep and some what complicated at a high level for beginning players. IT is not that the players can't execute the commands to escape a particular set up, but they don't know what is the best counter for any given situation.

Tekken and Soul Calibur are the same way. There is not a lot of incredibly difficult command inputs, excluding characters like King in Tekken who has long winded mulit-throws Etc. King is more of an advanced character though, so that is understandable. Tekken has a lot of long winded strings for combos and juggles and what not, but it is all easy to do if you know what strings to use. If you don't all you really need a launcher, which is always easy to do and characters have multiple launchers, and you can mash moves out and get a couple of hits and decent damage. Given this is not the kind of damage you can get if you launched with say Jin in Tekken 5 DR and got a bunch of God fists in there. Those are insane ass combos, but you would be once again, more than able to take of yourself. SO I think that in that aspect a lot of fighting games have a pretty decent amount of accessibility and really ramp up difficulty when it comes up to advanced set ups or advanced combos rather than complicated input.

On the Shoryuken thing. I never really understood why people have such a hard time with those kinds of inputs. making circles on a controller or arcade stick is not hard. But I understand that for some people, if a Hadoken was 2 punches, and a Shoryuken was 3 punches, and a Tatsumaki was 3 kicks and so on, with really simple input, most people would get to the high end level at just the same time. This is cause good SF just like good KOF or VF or Tekken is not just knowing your moves or knowing what button to press when, but it is forcing wins. Either by going in and taking it or by forcing the opponent to do things that will ultimately make them lose because you are preparing to counter against exactly those things. I really can't see how you could get all these techniques and combos and supers and whatever mapped in a way that is super easy to execute, and really it wouldn't matter. Cause you can't map strategy to a button, and you can't have a shortcut for long winded combos and magically make things more accessible. KOT had one super do like 30 hits. It is MUCH easier than manually landing all those hits. (See Guilty Gear) But ultimately the game is still hard cause advanced strats that are hard to do are hard to counter.

Last, yes, other game genres require you to practice. I can't beat Schild at any FPS other than ones I know better than he does. Ever. It wont happen. I have to play and practice to know the levels and get my crap down and counter his strats, otherwise I die. And if I practiced and got better, there is still a chance I would lose cause he is better at FPS than I am. There is a skill to shooting fools int he face and moving and controlling maps and limiting pick ups and knowing which weapons to use at what times. If i jumped on and pounded his ass at U2k4 and never played he would cry shinannigans, and with good cause. Cause he is not practicing but there is not reason that I should beat someone who is outright better than me. There is no fun in completely random bullshit.

Oh and one more thing. I don't think that just cause a game can be deep you should go get good at something else. People don't give people shit for being good at chess or poker (although you can make some sweet mullah here) but if you get good at fighting games you must be wasting your time. Fact is you waste the same if not  more playing RPGs where your time is set, (40 hour games here 100 hour game there Etc) and adventure/ action games or whatever. I guarantee that if you played 40 hours of Virtua Fighter. I would be hard pressed to say that I could sweep you without a second though. I would know that somewhere in those 40 hours you concocted some fucking secret sauce that will cause me a lot of trouble. And the good thing if you would never have to put that much time in cause playing with your friends for fun is the best kind of practice.

But I agree. Soccer is by far better than fighting games. Or any other video game... or sport. tongue

There is for some people. However, most people like gaming systems that mix learned experience with the gaming system with a degree of chance. The very introduction of another player, capable of making potentially unpredictable changes to the game is what makes competitive game play compelling for many people. Its generally more rewarding if the opponent has a reasonably level playing field in terms of skill and/or equipment. Germany vs. England would typically produce a more entertaining soccer match than Brazil vs. St. Lucia.

Watching hammer get bruce-trolled is sort of funny...


I hate to agree with BigBlack but that was entirely my reason for saying PowerStone is more fun.  The mechanics were so blazingly simple yet the core of the gameplay was environment interaction and awareness.  So basically the game sets the "skill" bar low but the tactics are there when you are playing 4 player ffa though it doesn't shine too well in 1v1.

There are no moves to learn, or anything like that instead its all about trickeration, some luck and having fun.  This is called a fun video game.

There was a time when I played games in that top tier percentile.  Those were the days when I got off school at 3pm and went home and played video games until 1am.  Good times for sure.  But that was a long time ago.  Sure I still look back at playing Tribes1 in the top10 as some of my favorite gaming memories.  But I also had to attend practices 3 nights a week and scrimmage on Saturdays.  We're talking about practice man, practice! /Iverson

So yeah, ultra competitive tournament scenes aren't shit.  The same way that ultra hardcore, burn their towns to the ground and make them quit open pvp isn't shit.  Keep the barrier to l33t low and let people succeed based on some luck, some skill and learning new little tricks.

Example:  You would pwn me in SSB because you know how to wave driver ultra lockdown Starfox w/ the pewpew doom laser of one million cuts.

Example:  Nobody has ever been pwn'd in Powerstone once they've played 5 games because they didn't understand the mechanics.

One of these experiences = more fun then the other.

The point is, I know that in SC3 there is a way to use bugs to cancel a move while still executing it or somesuch nonsense that basically breaks the game and raises it to the next bar.  Yes I've read Sirlin's great article and yes I know its scrubby to say "fuck people who learn how to do that shit"  but fuck them.  Once one person learns that trick now everybody has to learn it OR THEY NO LONGER CAN HAVE FUN.

When you layer on six levels of tricks to get out of scrubville, THE GAME IS ONLY FUN FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE TIME TO LEARN SIX LEVELS OF TRICKS.

You have now officially failed at making a game that everybody can enjoy.  Congrats.  I realize you think its more ub3r.  The same way I think open world pvp makes more sense and is more better in MMO's then some ghey2k sport pvp arena bullshit.  But I'm afraid according to the masses we're both very very wrong.

Pu.Li.Ru.La says hello.

I love how no matter the place, no matter the time and no matter the game in question, the same "you're good at a video game so you must suck at life" idiocy comes up.

I suck at life and video games.

Schild: Case in point. No one knows or cares about it. Mentioning random Taito pcb's is lame, quit trying to be so hardcore.  :awesome_for_real:

Hoax: The whole easier if funner and funner is better thing is something we will have to disagree on. I don't really like wasting time on games primarily of chance or random mash-foolery. If you like playing games like Powerstone... Or the lack of Powerstone-esque games, that is cool, cause as long as you are having fun, then that is all that matters. But for all the people who DO like a little, or a lot of strategy in their fighting games, I am glad they have options.

By the way SC# is broken beyond belief and it is not just the thorw bugs and crap. I am surprised that SC comes up as a casual fighter so much. It has a very casual crowd but it has a very large, very competitive scene full of all those "L337 Strats" you guys dislike so much...

I am not saying i like these top level techniques that players have to learn and practice. I don't think wave dashing in SB should be as useful as it is. I think L-canceling is fucking dumb, the move should just have short recovery. But I am one for depth in layers. I want a lot of options, not a bunch of crazy execution. If there is a way to squeeze all the options I want to have out of a small amount of buttons without over complicating things, I am all for it, but I wouldn't want to play a game that sacrifices depth for ease of execution.

I just think some of us are going by different definitions of casual.  I don't expect any fighting game to make it possible for me to beat someone who devotes a lot of time to getting better, any more than I expect to be able to beat hardcore FPS players, people who study chess, etc... at their chosen games, but then I usually avoid playing people in those crowds.  To me a casual game is simply one that has an intuitive control scheme that people can get into right away and have fun with.  Two people who don't play a lot of fighting games can pick up SC and not ever realize which parts of it are broken.  It only ever becomes an issue if you're playing against someone who tries to use those bugs, glitches, or balance issues to their advantage, and that's the kind of person I'd avoid playing a fighting game against anyway.

Velorath: you can do that with any fighting game though. I really can't think of a fighting game that you can't pick up and mash some moves out on.

Some are much better at it than others.  2D games, especially the SF games, you can have about 90% of the special moves figured out in your first day of playing.  Virtua Fighter on the other hand has a steeper learning curve.  A friend of mine in High School had a relative that worked for Sega.  He actually got a lot of stuff for free before it released in U.S., including a Saturn and a copy of Virtua Fighter.  We used to hang out at his place and play it a lot, and it was a couple weeks before either of us felt like we even remotely knew what we were doing.  If I were playing it in an arcade I would have given up after the first dollar.

Fixt that for you.

The fact is I genuinely support your desire to have higher level of competition games.  I'm just saying THEY ARE NOT AS UNIVERSALLY FUN.

If you would stop being such a pandering fucking cockmunch by posting stupid shit like everyone who isn't as hardcore!!one!! as you is a 4yr old who just can't handle video games and patting them on the head with comments like this I would have left this lame ass thread awhile back.


Seriously, stop doing that.  You fucking elitist douche.  That shit drips with fucking "thats cool cuz your having fun, bitch, I wash my armor with your tears" so bad its not even funny.

If you would stop that, I think most people would let you run around being a total Sirlin devotee rabid elitist fighting game fanboi, because, this just in.  Fucking nobody gives a fuck about fighting games.  This the age of multiplayer, games that force you to get real people in your living room?  Fucking fail.

When I've got real people in my living room I prefer a fucking deck of cards, some trivial persuit or just general hanging out watching sports and drinking shenanigans.  Fighting games that I need to work up a fucking sweat mastering and then playing at super high competition levels?  Are you serious?  Move outta the frat house someday and tell me how that shit works out for you.  :awesome_for_real:

You lost me there.  Personally I'll always prefer multiplayer gaming, with people actually in the room playing the game with me.

Hoax: You sure are really upset about this. I really don't care what you like to play, and long as you have fun, why should I really give a shit? I can defend my stance just fine. You seem to be the only one sending out all these insults and shit. I don't think that people that don't play fighting games are little 4 yr olds, I don't recall saying that, but if you got that from this, I apologize.

If you don't want to read this thread, don't. Cause if all you are going to do is talk shit and throw insults around, I really don't need to hear your BS. I really think that you have a very shitty idea of fighting games and fighting game players and I really don't think I can change that. I really like fighting games, and I like the competitive aspect of fighting games and it seems, from my experience, that if a fighting game has a good amount of depth and balance, I seem to have a lot of fun. I have fun practicing set ups and playing other players to learn new things and see where I am at. If you think that is not your cup of tea, then fine, but if you really think that people who play fighting games and try to get pretty good at them are elitist douches and whatever, then go ahead and think that too. But really it just makes you look like a jack ass.

Keep this in mind, I am not trying to get you upset or insult you, I like to talk about fighting games, but if that is not what this site is into, I can talk about other stuff and keep the fighting game stuff to myself.   



http://www.gametrailers.com/player/26833.html
 Has more info on HD remix and some stuff about SF4. Turns out it is an internal dev team at Capcom Japan and the lead producer is one of the the guys from Onimusha and Shadow of Rome....
 

Holy shit, I'd almost forgotten about the Sirlin article.  Googled it just to confirm that yes, it was just as hilariously bad as I remembered.

I honestly can't imagine what'd have to be going through someone's head to read the Sirlin article, scratch their chin, and go "yeah, that sounds about right".

Which of the Sirlin articles are you talking about?

This one. (http://www.sirlin.net/archive/playing-to-win-part-1/)

So have you scrubs found out anything new about SF4, or are you just swordfighting with your e-peens still?

Maybe you missed it a few posts back.

Actually I read through the whole thread, and indeed, I missed that line.

ta.

I would rip off some heads for a next-gen Shadow of Rome.

I was always fairly sure Sirlin was just trolling IRL.

Ha ha ha, I agree that Sirlin can come off pretty rough, but the guy is a a really nice fellow, I have played SF with him and he is really a lot nicer than he sounds in that article. He will teach you stuff and talk fighting games. He just played so damn much with all the best player sin the world that he understands fighting games really well and sometimes, maybe all the time, can come off like a smart ass. It is a shame though cause I tink he should have tried to aim that article not at casual players of fighting games, but more at crappy players of fighting games, by which I mean people who think they are good and assume that they can make up new rules just cause they think that they know the game so well. But all the stuff he says is on the money, minus the scrubs part. I think that it is totally okay to play SF for fun and not feel the need to get all great at it. I only think it is silly if a person REALLY thinks that something is cheap or lame even after it has been explained and the counter has been taught. I am all about teaching players that are learning new things if they want to learn, simply because it is fun for me to see other people get into fighting games a little more.

He also wrote an article about His card game, called Yomi, and he ragged on all card games minus Magic the Gathering and the WOW CTCG, which kinda sucked cause there are other card games I think are still pretty fun. Namely UFS, which I found fun and he just ripped on and the Epic Battles SF CTCG which I enjoyed also. I think that with card games I am easy to please though, as long as it is a cool subject and the game plays fun I tend to be happy.

Oddly enough He is doing a fighting card game for some flash game site and it got all these good reviews at some gaming conference. (board gaming and card games) So I was interested in checking that out.

You missed the point.  I don't particularly care if Sirlin is a smart-ass or not; we're not exactly shrinking violets here.  The point is that the actual substance of what he wrote was ridiculously ass-backwards wrong.

Yeah I can see how it comes off as really elitist BS. The unfortunate thing is that all high level competitive gaming seems to have all the same clicks. Super serious anything breeds uber-competitive elitist jerkys. Th only good thing is that those jerkys serve as an example of what top level play looks like and what is to be expected when playing with players of that skill level.

But that's the point -- it's retarded to aim to play a video game at a 'high level'.

Why?

I just want to take a second to point out that Asheron's Call sucks hobo balls.

Big Black: Yeah, I think that playing at a high level is fine if that is what someone wants to do. I for one rather play at a high level and not have to play like crazy. I can't compete with tournament level people but i hold my own in the community, and that is good enough for me. I DO know  lot of folk who play very seriously and they are normal down to Earth people, they just have a different hobby. Playing High level fighting games takes a lot less dedication than you think it does. When I used to play Guilty Gear and go to tournaments I played twice a week and practiced like every other day before tourneys. It NEVER interfered with anything else I had to do.

Really, I never understood the hate for people who takes certain games seriously. More than often it seems to come of as jealousy.

It impacts game design, and makes things less fun for the rest of us.

For example: Smash Brothers was less fun for me after all my friends learned how to rapidly, repeatedly spam aerials via short-hop, wave-dash, and L-canceling.

I can learn how to short-hop; it is not hard.

I can learn how to L-cancel; it is not hard.

I can learn how to wave-dash; it's not easy, but it's not that hard either.

But put these things together, and even once I've learned them all and I'm back on the same competitive level as them, the game is far less enjoyable.

Now, I have to tap L every time I land an aerial.  I have to do a silly button rapid-button combo just to space my character appropriately to attack.

The one I take the most umbrage at, though, is short-hopping.  You can't just bind a button to 'short hop' -- you have to tap the jump button incredibly lightly and quickly.  Doing so gives you a short jump that allows you to launch aerial attacks close to the ground, far more effective in most situations than standard jumping.

By the time I'm doing all these things at once, the game's become work and it isn't any fun anymore.  Not terribly fun on the fingers, either.  Even if I go "up" to their level, I'm still not anywhere near the level of fun I was having before.

And if I don't learn?  The game's still less fun, because my friends have.  It's not about win/loss ratios -- I don't think winning at a fun game is 'more fun' than losing at one -- it's about the way the game changes such that I don't get to make interesting strategic decisions anymore.

I'm looking forward to Brawl for precisely this reason.  Learning to short-hop is a small price to pay in exchange for no more wavedashing or L-canceling (though I'm holding out hope that they'll give you a 'short-hop' keybind).  There will be plenty of people better than me at Brawl, just as there are plenty of people who are better than me at Melee, but when I do lose, it'll be far more fun.


The internet connections that are now standard on consoles give me hope, though.  Something like Wavedashing is discovered?  They'll send a patch to your Wii that fixes it.

Amen.  I've never had more four-player gaming fun in my life than Brawl with three other people who didn't know about any of that dashdancing/L-canceling bullshit.  We all spam our special moves, never block, KO ourselves, and die in hilarious ways.  I've see videos of "top-level" smash and it looks like the most unfun thing ever.

I am not a big fan of games that require a lot of execution without that adding much depth, but that is not the same as trying to be really good at a game.

The complaint against Smash is less that people try to play well than that playing well is tedious -- a common complaint for many games. I have the same complaint about games like Alpha 3 and CVS2.

One of the nice things about the original Street Fighter 2 is that there wasn't a lot of "practice mode" stuff. It's not the kind of game where practicing techniques in practice mode does much for you.

Fair point.  I'd say that fighting games, as a genre, are disproportionately inclined to making it tedious to play well.  And that, given that, it's irrational to *want* to play well given the tedium it forces on all involved -- doing so places winning above 'the fun'.

Of course, that's starting from the assumption that having fun is more important than winning, and that you don't have to win to have fun.  Which, to me, sounds like common sense -- but it's directly contrary to the paradigm of Sirlin and friends.

I'm confused.  Can I agree with you and Sirlin at the same time?

Sirlin's "Playing to Win" series is the worst thing on his site.

Anyway a lot of games at higher levels are not that fun to play, in part because they become very restrictive or are more about playing yourself than playing the opponent. One problem with a lot of modern fighting games is they minimize the actualy interaction with the opponent, for example X-Men vs. SF where the goal is to land a single hit then play by yourself for 15 seconds +.

Modern games are not any deeper than SF2, they just have bigger combos and more stuff you can do.

I can see why people complain about Smash. the high level game is a completely different game than the normal game,which I think IS BS. I still play the game with ALL the levels and normal items, then I still WD LC and SH. I find that fun. All default plus the skill shit. But you can't blame fighting games for Smashe's poor design. You can look at any Smash forum and they all think that all those techniques are very silly. All moves that can be L-canceled should have just had recovery shortened, Wave dashing should have not been there. short hop should be easier and less effective, but that is not tekken or SF's or VF's fault. they get it right. the high level game is just like the low level game, just played better. (A LOT less silliness at a high level) The high level techniques in Smash are just a result of poor design on Nintendo's and Hal's part. This is why Smash is in my opinion and the opinion of many fighting game players, a quasi-fighting game. It is Smash Brothers Hyper Tournament Edition Melee. It was the trashed carcass of a party brawling game posing poorly as a competitive fighting game supported by fans who don't want to let go, or couldn't hang elsewhere. I can see the skill in it, and it has a majority of all the set ups fighting games do, but with about a third of the grace and balance. So I do hope that Brawl fixes shit, cause at this point Mellee is just a glorified party game...That you can use like 5 characters in...in like 3 levels... :roll:

When it comes to other fighting games, namely 3rd strike, Gg, VF, Tekken, etc, I see that the game is the same game, you see all the same shit you see at low level, except it is played better, tighter and smarter.

By the way, I am totally there with you on the Alpha 3 thing. I can't get into that game simply because V-ism is so damn overbearingly powerful in that game. I play X Adon so I am shit out of luck. CVS 2 on the other hand works relatively well considering all the BS that could have been there. You still see a decent' amount of variation in it, I see a lot of good C, A, P, K  and N Groove play, but S is completely ignored by most. (I actually play S groove)

I think that The execution thing is just a necessary evil in many of these cases, but I never found it a problem, and again, you can make all of these moves as easy as you want, it doesn't matter, the execution is the easier part of fighting games in many peoples opinions. It is not that people get beaten or have a lack of skill because of execution, it is a lack of experience against higher level play.

Also, more complex execution on moves is usually done for a purpose. Shoryukens, Supers anything, have special properties, and although spamming them can get you beat up, it is important to be able to botch moves like this. Shoryukens for example have the invincibility time at the beginning of the move, making them good reversals and making them pretty valuable. Being able to botch execution under pressure really livens up the game, at least for me.

I will use SF as an example again. Powerful supers are multiple commands and moves truncated for easier execution, Ryu's Shinku-Hadoken in Third Strike(Super Fire Ball) for example, is a 5 hit fireball super art. You only do 1 and a half times the execution (a hadoken and a half, (236,236, punch) of a normal fire ball though, get 5 hits (as opposed to 1), a knockdown (which is not the case with an ordinary fireball) and invincibility time at start up (which means you can use it as a reversal), it can be linked off of special moves (comboed directly off of another special move, so you can do hadoken->Super, and it connects), used as a juggle move ( if someone is falling and in a jugglable state, you can smack them with this) and used as a counter to normal projectiles or ex projectiles. ( it will cancel out the 1st or 1st and 2nd hit against normal/ex projectiles, and then keep going and hit the opponent) It is a very, very powerful move with a whole lot of uses for a lot less chance for execution error, yet it is abused like crazy, and used poorly by a majority of players. The easier execution only made it easier for good players to hit confirm a move ( visually see that a linkable move connects) then execute the super and hit you ALL THE TIME. Effectively making it harder for lower skilled players to win. So to a degree, yes easier execution can help, but it ultimately makes it easier to get moves off for better players. I really think that knowing how to use available tools well makes good players, not just the ability to execute them. Also the ability to botch such powerful moves really balances things out a bit, because at least the the less skilled player can take advantage of a situation if the advanced player slips up, which I have seen happen many, many, many times. Keep in mind that if you make the execution one button, then that would be impossible to botch, that means you are not just making it possible to land that super 100% of thee time you try to use it, but you land that reversal 100% of the time, that juggle 100% of the time, that super cancel 100% of the time Etc. It wouldn't be a matter of execution, timing, and strategy anymore, it would break down to strat and some timing. And the timing+execution being well placed strategically balances such powerful techniques out.

On the Sirlin thing. We can say all we want about him, but he knows what he is talking about when it comes to fighting games and when it comes to playing fighting games at a competitive level, and ultimately that is what that article was about. He has defended that opinion publicly on podcasts before. He is all for casual play and playing for fun, but once a player wants to play competitively, and still plays like a scrub with made up rules and honor and whatever, he is just wasting his time. he wont be able to get better and will lose to better, smarter players that take advantage of all the tools available to them.   

   

 

I don't think exploiting bugs which spoils the game counts as a very good example.

I'll give another example, I just recently got into Guilty Gear, and while I would get owned by people who "play2win" I consider myself pretty good. If I play vs someone who isn't into fighters I will win every round no contest if I play a character I know, even if they've played the game causally at home. What makes that game fun though is that it's extremely deep. There's stuff in there which a starter won't even know exists, even if he see me pull it of. For example, if you manage to do the right input in a 2 - 4 frame window you can recover insanely fast when blocking an attack which means you can counter into a combo. Take a look at http://dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372 (http://dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=372) for even more insane things like that. That's what makes the game fun, there's always room for improvement in GG. So, does that make the game less causal friendly? If someone who just causaly plays vs someone who also just plays causaly they the game is still fun.

There's nothing at all which says a game can't be fun for causal while having enough depth to be fun for the hardcore unless you're arguing that causal friendly means picking up a game and instantly being at the highest level of play.

You're ignoring how completely un-intuitive that is.   Someone blocking your attacks isn't giving any feedback from the game saying "Hey, rapidly pushing this button sequence would be a good way to quickly counter it".  It requires research, practice, etc -- defeating the whole purpose of the fact that you're *playing a game*.

It's like an old King's Quest game where you have to grab the needle in the haystack at the very beginning of the game to use at the very end, and if you didn't notice it you're screwed.  Completely unintuitive.

Smash Brothers works by actually putting the fun first, and what you learn you learn intuitively through experience, not by practice and research.

Sairon: Is that aimed at me or someone else, cause I am right there with you. I play the crap out of Guilty Gear. I got to tournament level play at XX, Reload and some Slash, I am WAY into Accent Core right now. But I noticed that it was a relatively friendly game but was very tough and competitive at a high level play. All the False Roman Cancels can get crazy. I started playing I-No recently and I still can't FRC her jump installed Chemical Love move. But I can see that once I can get that on command it ill boost my play level big time. It is a huge part of her big damage combos. Again thought, with the "playing to win" It is a viable wat to think for people playing at a competitive/tournament setting. So I don't look at it as a bad thing at all. When I play with my buddies, I am just playing casually, I play I-No and if I play my character (Testament) I stay away from mean set ups, (FRC barney lock down mix ups) and huge loop style combos (backwoods loops). You just got to know when to put your game face on, and I think that playing to win means exactly that. When it is time to get crack'in, play to win. Otherwise, have fun and get better. 

Big Black: I think you just have to stick to SB style stuff if you want friendlier games. Fighting games are skill based. Party games are some skill and some luck. It doesn't mean that fighting games are less fun, cause there is many, many people who would disagree, including myself, it just means that if you don't want to put the time into getting good at something, then don't play, or just play with people that play casually. You will get better the more you play, so eventually you will get to the level f everyone else, or you will just stop playing. Either way it is good to have that depth for those of us who wish to continue getting better at a specific game. There is enough games and game players to be able to have the too types of games co-exist. It just seems like you are saying the games are too hard, but are not giving us examples of how to make it easier without making the games duller. It is not like roman cancels and false roman cancels are unknown to new players in Guilty gear. the instruction manual explains them really well. Not only that, the move list even tells you which moves are FRC'able. 

What you aren't getting is this.

Learning to aim better, learning maps, common strats and counter strats, getting good w/ certain weapons etc etc etc.

Those are intuitive, you automagically do them while you are playing any fps.  It just happens, you are running around fragging people and you will get better at fragging people.

Figuring out fucking stupidly complex move cancel 2-4 frame bullshit in fighting games?  Not the same thing.  Not the same thing at all...


Yeah I'm totally going to just "learn" to do that.  Hrmmm looks like 48 frames, time to cancel my homing jump...

For real.  They are not the same.

Learning tactics in RTS games, learning twitch "skills" in FPS games.  Learning how to be good in Sports games.  Have nothing to do with learning "advanced" tactics in fighters.  This isn't because Fighters are inherently superior (what fighting game freaks think) this is because they are inherent fail to people who just don't care that much about any form of gaming or really dont want to get off from work/school and fucking work to figure out this absurdly complicated ways to bend the scrub level ruleset and let yourself become l33t.

This is why Powerstone = Better universal fun.

PS works like a FPS/RTS/Sports title.  There isn't some magical alchemy of move cancellation, crazed finger dance and wild button pattern/combinations to memorize.  The more PS you play, the better you will be at PS but because of the way the game is designed there is no Super Sayan XXX+7 bullshit mode where you are a god compared to everyone else.  Which is what all this hoodoo mumbo jumbo "advanced fighter techniques" may as well be to most people.

I can't really disagree, and you guys are phrasing it in a nice way, I haven't seen it approached from that angle before.

Maybe I'll bring it up with Sirlin, it is certainly a valid point, I think you guys have put your fingers on the difference between SF2 and more "practice mode" fighters.

Hoax: You don't have to learn that if you don't want. Catching an impossible dust is stuff for high level play. Are you planning on playing at that level ever? Cause if you are not then it doesn't pertain to you. It wont ever come up when you play with your friends unless they took the time to learn it. It is there for people who play enough to need to use it to get an edge, and there is nothing wrong about it being there or someone wanting to get that good at a game. Your claim that PS is better universal fun is completely subjective. Cause A lot of people would disagree with you. I personally think that PS is freaking boring. It is a fun waste of time for me and it is just that. That is fine, cause the game is not meant to be taken farther than that, but I can take a fighting game as far as I want to go.

Now the "Figuring out fucking stupidly complex move cancel 2-4 frame bullshit in fighting games?" thing is silly. Guilty gear tells you what moves are cancelable. It tells you. Then it shows you on a time line where to cancel it. You know when you canceled it and when you do good things happen. You don't have to get good at that, but if you want to compete at a high level you should. But you can play casually and have a great time and not ever run into a cancelable situation or move and not even care and it is all the same.

FPS has skill based movement too, Q3 and Q4 had all kinds od silly jumping and movement stuff that was important to get good with as well as special ways to use rockets and other weapons. UT is even a better example of that, with all the different weapon combos and adrenilen specials. Strategic control of a map doens't just happen either, you have to really get to know a map and know what are the best routes to take when and with what weapon. When to get back to a specific part of a map at what point and with what kind of attack power. Sure you learn by playing but there is a lot of strat there. It may be easy to run double jump off something activate some adrenilin special turn around and lay out some shock ball thingies then do a shock combo for you, but it certainly isn't easy for me. I would have to practice it. 

The execution in a fighting game is part of that strat too. The execution makes it possible to botch execution, just like people in FPS botch Execution by mis-aiming, mis-timeing etc. That is part of the fighting game genre.

I am really curious to know how you would solve this. How would you make a fighting game that is deep and plays well at a competitive level and is easy to play? Cause again, GG is a good and bad example in fighting games. The game is god damn great at introductory and high level play, but you do have to press a lot of buttons and there is a lot of advanced techniques. Yet Tekken 5 Dark Resurrection plays great at both introductory and high level play and is much much easier in the execution dept but still remains deep as hell and maintains a huge gap between low and high level play.

Tekken doesn't play well at the introductory level. None of them do.

Why do you keep saying that? It's too viscerally boring. I'm sorry you can't see that.

Schild: Your opinion on whether Tekken is good or not is really not an issue here. You don't even know the game or how it plays so your opinion is poop.  :-P
Glad your here though.

I JUST realized that the guy who played Ken in the movie is Miklo from Blood In, Blood Out.

VATOS LOCOS FOREVER CARDNAL LET'S GO!!!   :lol:

Jaja...

Anyway, I freaking love that girl in your av, who is that?  :inluv:

Rosario Dawson

Actually, the point is, you're coming off as a fanatic. You're the WORST possible judge of what is fun at the low level. Which is funny, because in person, you aren't. But in words, it's a mess.

The (good) point people are making, Hammer Frenzy, is that in many fighting games playing the game doesn't encourage you or teach you to get better at important skills.

You can't practice map control in an FPS game single-player, nor you can you practice space control in a fighting game single player. But you can sure as hell practice complex combos and such.

The problem with many fighting games is that many of the skills are essentially single-player. Doing a combo is not an interactive skill, the other player has no input on it at all. Whereas parrying a move very much depends on the other player.

"Learn by doing" is not possible in many fighting games. You aren't going to learn a really effective VC by just playing the game normally.

In SF2 there is very little to practice in practice mode. You can work out your best combo which will come into play every 20 games or so, other than that there isn't much to do because all the skill is highly interactive and dependent on the other player.

Except SC, that game plays great when you are playing at scrub levels.  Also Marvel Vs Capcom is great even at low levels because there is so much shit going on.

Tekkan and KI are great examples of games that suck balls when you don't know all the cool shit.  They play clunky and stupid and you feel stupid playing them.  You know there is a way to do really cool shit but you haven't read the fucking Gamefaq's to figure it out.  Yes, you need to read the gamefaqs.  You don't fucking intuit the high level cancellation / movelist stuff.  Thats fucking unpossible dreamer-talk.  I know dickall about GG so if somehow it TELLS you "omg gai time to cancel your dustoff, cancel the infinity cruise jump and prepare to do the facedance waveslapp.... NOW!!!" then wow, that game sounds pretty smart.

Margalis: I think that the combo aspect of fighting games is still greatly affected by the defending player, they have to allow themselves to be placed in a punishment situation. I can totally agree with long winded combos being lame, especially in Tekken and Alpha 3, and other stuff. But games like GG have burst which let's you bust out of combos. I am into short combos with extremely scaled damage at excessive amounts of hits. This is why I like SF and VF so much. The combos are not too long winded, sans the occasional Yun BS in 3rd Strike and some crazy juggles in VF.

I think that I have learned the most about fighting games while playing. I practice long combos and certain set ups in practice mode, but I learn a huge chunk of fighting games while playing. 

Although I can see that this kind of game play is obviously not fun for some, I am sure that you guys see that there are many people who do enjoy it. So having easy low level play counter balanced by deep high level play can work out for everyone. If you want to play with better players there are many sources to help you do that, if not then you can always play at whatever level you feel comfortable.

I just don't see why games have to drop to the level of the lowest common denominator as opposed to just allowing everyone to enjoy the game at their own level. I for one don't mind casual play, cause that is where all good players start, but I also think that high level play is really fun if you play with people at your skill level.

I could do with less huge combos, or just have huge combos with various ways to avoid stuff, or various defensive options for the moment leading to the beat down. I am actually not big on juggles to be honest. I like short sweet combos.

Also the VC thing is BS. All VC's were learned "normally" by good players. They practiced and made them up then shared them.

I made up almost all my VC's in CVS2 and Alpha 3. Were they good as the high level ones made up by Chen and Valle and Bucktooth? No, but they worked and won me many fights. I only had to learn expert VC's when I played at expert level.

The point of VC is to make your own combo, obviously some people are better at it than others and at a high level, if you want to win, you use the VC's that work best, do the most damage, are the most accessible and and are easy and variable in set up. 

Now you only have to do that at tourny/ competitive level, you can use any VC in casual and low and it is all fine and dandy.

Better Street Fighter II Turbo HD pic from IGN:


(http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/829/829850/super-street-fighter-ii-turbo-hd-remix-20071024095637112.jpg)

That background is god-awful.  :x

That dude in the yellow hat is awesome, he's like a gay pimp Weird Al Yankovic.

Also, I wanted to come in this thread and say

I WANNA TAKE YOU FOR A RIIIIIIDE

DUNANANANA

I WANNA TAKE YOU FOR A RIIII-IIIIIIDE

You still aren't getting it, that is not the right dichotomy. The problem is not that high level play is deep, the problem people are complaining about is that high-level play is esoteric and has increasingly little to do with the core gameplay. It's about figuringing out random systems that have nothing to do with other players.

I don't agree with this at all. You kinda are assuming that all fighting games are like that, and this is simply not true. Guilty Gear has been mentioned, but guilty gear is known for it's fast, deep and balanced game play. Further more, saying that a lot of the high level stuff has nothing to do with the core game play is really a vague statement. What is the core game play in GG? I understand it as learning the game and using the tools available to you to win. It seems that you are saying that False Roman Cancels and Combination loops and character specific strats have nothing to do with the "core game play" and I think they have everything do with how the game is supposed to be played. GG has had many iterations in the XX series and there are many things that remain constant, RC/FRC, big combos, rush down/ lock down patterns and character specific strats. All the loops, lock downs etc that broke or other wise hindered game play were toned down or removed in further installments.  So the game at a high level plays exactly as it is meant to. The low level game is exactly what it is. Low level examples of what GG is played as. The occasional thing gets by, IE Jumpinstalled/instant air dash moves, impossible dust etc, but that is all modified execution of normal system techniques. It does not break game play, but I  know that stuff like Jumpinstall/instant air dash stuff is supposed to be there. In fact characters like I-No need to compete at high levels.

Not many other games are like that, or at least to that extent, but the argument is pointless cause yes, all this stuff matters. The core game play is not some half assed portion of the fighting system that whatever group assumes is the gist of how they SHOULD be playing. The core system of any fighting game is all techniques available at any given time.

Saying that the high level of fighting games in general breaks down to random systems that have nothing to do with the other player is down right ignorant. Everything happening has everything to do with both players. No one is subject to any actions unless the have made themselves open for action to taken on them.

People bitching about long combos that they get caught in, myself included, need to STOP GETTING CAUGHT. It is simple risk and reward. Is it worth it for you to take action X if action Y is equally appropriate and will leave you less vulnerable? Getting caught, taking the wrong action and BOTCHING EXECUTION are the windows for counter attacks which many times consist of high damage moves, setups and combos at high level play.

Until someone comes up with a system that is both equally deep but accessible to any skill level, this is where we are at.

I have said this before and I really believe it, most fighting games at high level are less "random systems having nothing to do with the other player" and more of someone just knowing their character and match-ups better than you. All that can be fixed with play time. Just playing casually and learning the match-ups and getting good with your character.   

Ultimately fighting games are games of skill, albeit with accessible introductory play. Like and skill based activity, they may require some practice and some research. This is all voluntary because you don't need to learn all the higher level stuff. If it doesn't matter, and you still are having fun, then so be it. But any game of skill will have some high level play that is somewhat different from the low level play, most of the time in fighting games, this is just better, more efficient ways of doing what the game already does. That can come in the form of strats, or combos, or set ups or even advanced execution ( in the case of SB, GG, etc.) ALL these things have everything to do with the game. You choose how much of it you learn, and when you should learn it.

HAMMER FRENZY is being purposely obtuse I think. In his world pressing ABCABCBBACCBAA! at the 73-second mark to do extra damage would make perfect sense and only add to the gameplay.

This is why I hope to God Capcom does not listen to fans when they make SF4. Fighting games have been dying a slow death for a decade in part because people like HAMMER FRENZY have no idea what people consider fun and dismiss any and all complaints with meaningless retorts like "don't get hit" as if there was a single person on earth that can consistently avoid getting hit by Jenei-Gin.


It can't be said any simpler. A3 crouch cancels? You don't pick that up by playing, you just don't. As I keep pointing out SF2 had very little of that sort of thing, which is part of why it was so popular.

People like HAMMER FRENZY are hoping that in SF4 you have to do a complete Gloomy Puppet Show to punch someone, that's their dream game I guess.

Props to other people for saying what I was thinking, but in a far more articulate fashion.

Also, props to Marvel vs Capcom for including easy-mode.  Everything in Easy Mode made intuitive sense, and I had a great time playing it on that setting.  Sucks they took it out for part 2.


I've spent five minutes trying to think of a witty way to tie this in, but fuck it, my brain is fried tonight. This song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GfBSuIw_kI) goes perfectly with the above.  Everybody pretend I tied in the link with a witty comment, k?  K.

The idea that this is some argument of high level vs. low level play is a red herring, it's an argument of well vs. poorly designed games.

This is borderline retarded. I have stated multiple times that things don't need to be overly complicated. I agree that GG is tough at high level play and I for oue would actually like relatively more laxed FRC windows. I would like to see how the game played if the windows were 5 and 6 frame windows, (like a parry in CVS2) as opposed to 2 and 3. That would make the moves way easier to do and still have some cool stuff to do with combos.


First of all, Yun without Jenei-Gin is useless so yes, he needs that super art and ways to land it to do damage and compete. BUT the damage and set-ups can be overwhelming and powerful, hence the execution factor. You can link Jenei-Gin from all kinds of crap, and it can be hard to defend against it at times, but for god sakes, if you know you can't handle someones set-ups with Jenei-Jin TURTLE THE FUCK UP, wait for a window and counter. There are ways around it, I personally think that yes, Yun should have played differently, but that is cause I am not into long button combo sequences, but some people are. He fits some peoples preferred play style and saying that it should not be available to them is just as pompous and retarded as saying that there shouldn't be characters or games that don't have that kind of play style or are simple and straight forward, easy to learn characters. If you don't like Jenei-Jin don't play Yun, if you have trouble getting out of Jenei-Gin Set ups, then just play more. You will know when Jenei-Gin is coming, it shows up in all the same situations, reduce the opportunities and adapt to the flow of the fight.



Crouch cancels in A3 are lame. (They are not supposed to be there, and were taken out of Alpha 3 Upper and the community wrongfully so, didn't play it. I think that is Bullshit.) I personally don't like Alpha 3 and I have mentioned this before, mostly because it is all V-ism all day long with bullshit customs. (IE cc customs) I am totally okay with customs in Alpha 2 and CVS2 (a little less with CVS2 cause roll canceling makes a even more powerful) and I like them more cause at least in CVS2 you can play with other grooves and not be completely gimped. VCS2 though, as much as I like the concept and game play, suffers from boring, long fights, and breaks down to poke fests, which is a real turn off for me, so I left that game quite a while ago.


How stupid are you? You make these retarded statements that make you sound totally misinformed. I want SF to remain accessible, I want it to be deep and fun to play, and if it takes the system having a revamp and changing a bunch of shit so everyone can play then so be it. All I want is fun and strategic fighting that is accessible for newcomers and hard to master. I want SF4 to be big, I want people to play it like fucking crazy and have get togethers and see young kids get into SF like we were when we were kids. Me having to re-learn SF or having to let go of some of the crap I am used too is a small price to pay for a fresh start on SF.

I can agree that some things ARE BS in fighting games, but I can see how a lot of it does need to be there at least to some extent. Am I into long silly BS strings. Fuck No. Will I do it if it means getting to play a game that, despite some failings, is a fun, interesting game to play? Hell Yes. There are parts of many games I wish they did better, and long complicated strings and overly complicated execution for high level techniques in fighting games is something that can be changed in my opinion, as long as the games stay fun, accessible, balanced and deep.

Really though, on your "This kind of crap wasn't in original SF" stuff, you are right to some degree, but there were ways people used things in SFWW, Champ and Hyper that were silly. Block infinites with Bison in Champ, silly traps with shotos/Sagat. All that crap to me is silly. This is why I liked 3rd Strike so much, a lot of those traps were not nearly as useful because of the parry, then the old school players called shinanigans, saying that it broke game play, but here we are years later still playing it and having fun. That doesn't change that old school SF still had some silliness in it. Most people, including myself, still have a hard time comboing supers in ST. I personally believe it should be easier, cause the timing on it is just hard for me, but I have heard other theories on why it must remain the way it is. 

On the SF III thing  I can see that to some degree, the old school players were right, cause sometimes 3rd strike can break down into some pretty random mix-ups. I can't tell you how many time I accidentally parried into super and won. I didn't mean to do that at all and still won straight out. Or how many times I literally just throw random over heads and linkable low attacks looking to  further mix up or hit confirm into super and I am not really thinking of the outcome outside of that flurry of highs and lows and occasional throw attempts. Sometimes it just feels less like deliberate, well thought out set-ups and more like "overwhelming mix-up blitz #14" or some BS.   SO I can see when you say, don't take the fans suggestions, which is what SF3 and especially 3rd strike was, but I can also see that some more input from the hardcore community could have helped out quite a bit. 

Name one person on earth that can consistently counter Jenei-Gin. One.


But...but...long VCs and crouch-cancels are high level play HAMMER FRENZY! If you don't like long VCs don't get hit with them!



You keep changing the discussion. I am not talking about generic "crap" or "silly" stuff, I'm being specific. The complaint being made is very specific:

Playing the game does not in itself naturally lead people to develop the skills to play the game at a higher level.

THAT is the complaint. All the important SF2 skills come naturally from playing the game - proper spacing, footsies, good timing, predicting what your opponent will do, etc. There is very little in SF2 that you do not pick up from just playing the game. Maybe some advanced combos like low shorts into super or Guile's standing fierce into flash kick, maybe timing jump-ins to be reversal proof - that's about it. Playing the game makes you better at all the important aspects of the game.

That's good design. Learn by doing, not learn by practice mode.

If you look at people playing SF2 well, it still looks like SF2, just better. If you look at people playing Smash Brothers well it looks like a different game. That's the difference. All the things that are important in high-level smash play are things you don't pick up just by playing Smash.

What is this whole argument really about?  How you're afraid they're going to introduce all this wack shit into SF4 which will cause casual players to get owned everytime by more hardcore players?  Because the hardcore players know that when they fall from a jump they should crouch because they will instantly recover?

SF2 was simple, but those aforementioned hardcore players are always going to kick your ass at it because they know how the whole goddamn game works.  They know every trick, how many frames a punch is, and have encountered every possible scenario so many times they know exactly what to do.  These, let's call them fuckers, fuckers eat up learning everything they can about their little world, that is just what they do.  So really you can't complain that the hardcore players have an unfair advantage by studying how the systems work, because those fuckers are just better at fighting than you or I naturally.  It's in their blood.

So what do fighting game companies do?  They introduce more systems to satisfy their hardcore fanbase, I mean you can play almost any fighting game (except for Tekken and DOA) without know much going into it, and depending on your base skill you should be able to get the hang of it.  Johnny 'I play Halo 3' Smith who is age 13 isn't going to get his mom to buy Guilty Gear, the people who buy the newest fighting games are the same fuckers who just love fighting games.  Granted with SF4 the non hardcore players will be buying it as well, but every player will get out of it exactly what they put into it.  If you're going to play a couple matches a week with your friends I don't think you're going to care about the wake up time after getting hit by a Shuryuken, but the depth that exists beyond the surface is what keeps people playing the game for some time to come.

I hope they add things that can only be accomplished in one frame, I'm never going to attempt them, but you know that upper level play is going to be amazing.  You know when once guy pulls it off in tournament play and then dodges a fireball by timing his roll so he dodges it in the 2 frames possible, you're going to be impressed.

I hope they make it so complicated that Hammer ends up getting so angry and frustrated that he agrees with us.

Just so he stops writing so many paragraphs that all say the same thing.  :oh_i_see:

Well at least we disabused him of his bullshit "I just want you guys to have fun, that's what matters" pat-you-on-the-fucking-head attitude and now he's calling people who don't agree with him retarded.  This is the level of internet discourse I'm much more comfortable with.

@Ookii:  The argument is that fighting games do a horrible job with their "high end" systems.  Sure Thresh or whomever back in the day could have waxed any of us in 30 seconds of Quake2 but you could grok why he won.  When somebody beats Joe Normal's ass in GG using things like Fuzzy Guard Jump install/cancels he has no fucking idea what happened.  He knows he got his shit pushed in but he's not sure why.

Yeah and I thought I was verbose and repetitive sometimes.

I was a hardcore SF2 player and I only learned by doing. No practice mode, all my experimentation was done in-game. I naturally got good along with a bunch of other people who got good alongside me. That's what people are asking for.

The complication of games does not intimidate or frustrate me, I was one of the first people to put out good CCs for CVS2. My problem is that the fun part for me of fighting games is fighting other people, not competing against myself to get down some technique or fucking around in practice mode. Anything you can practice in practice mode is inherently a non-interactive skill.

The better you can get by messing around in practice mode the worse it is for the game.

Edit: And Hoax is exactly right, there is a huge difference between losing because someone is clearly better and losing because someone appears to be playing a different game. It would be like in the NFL if the running back teleported into the end-zone.

Oh sorry I was too lazy to read, well, basically anything and thought I grasped the meaning of this argument.

Well great guys, let's play fighting games!  You guys, like me, just like to play to get good, and that is great.  We can have bunches of fun for a long time playing each other, we don't even have to worry about all that high end stuff.  Hammer can play on his super technical level with his friends, and they'll have bunches of fun too.

The only thing I am getting out if this argument is the fact people are complaining they can't be top tier at fighting games unless they learn all the crap.  It seems everyone wants the games dumbed down to their level so they can become instantly better; you don't just want to be one of the best around your friends, you want to be one of the best in general.

Basically this argument doesn't make sense to me, high level people are always playing on a different level than lower level people.  They're always thinking about things that normal people wouldn't even consider, and it doesn't matter what they hell they're doing. 

And of course I could of missed the point in the first place, but the fact that this thread has 6 pages is ridiculous!

Pretty much.  The issue is that the high-end game isn't the logical extension of the low end game.  You don't learn how to play at a high level by playing the game a lot, you learn it by going online and reading up on what essentially are exploits that all the other high end players are using.

At this point, for hammer to not get it, he has to be REALLY FUCKING TRYING to not get it.

I mean, think about how batshit obscure this stuff is getting -- a "False Roman Cancel"?  WHAT THE FUCK DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?  How is any of this supposed to make any sense to anyone who isn't absolutely into being the master of their tiny, obscure domain?

Googling, it seems that you spend a portion of your power bar (less if you time it perfectly during certain moves) in order to lessen post-attack lag and thus link certain combos together that'd be otherwise impossible.

The basic dynamic here is "expend some power bar in order to open up more strategic options".  There are, oh, about a million more intuitive ways to create this sort of dynamic than how Guilty Gear's combat system does it.

This is not to say I'm advocating for incremental reforms.  Frankly, I think they'd be better off just taking intuitive systems - Street Fighter 2, PowerStone, Smash Brothers - and using those as the basis for new fighting game designs.


Er, no.  The point isn't to make us *better*, the point(s) are:

-Make it so people of greater skill disparities can play each other and still enjoy the match, even if the outcome isn't in doubt.

-Make it so progression to higher levels of skill happens intuitively, rather than having to treat the game like a job (complete with 'practice sessions') to progress.  One essential of this is that anything you see someone do should allow you to have a decent sense of how they did it.

-Make it so playing at a higher level doesn't require such ridiculous technical precision such that even if you *can* play at a high level, playing at that high level stops being any fun.


The original Street Fighter 2 fulfills all of the above.

It's pretty amazing how people can say the exact same thing over and over again in very clear english and other people literally cannot understand it at any level.

I'm quoting now so I actually get the point, my head is not straight today.


High End players figured out this shit on their own, because they love fighting games.  They will always be the best no matter how non-technical or technical a fighting game is because it's what they do, they higher end stuff is put in because that is what games dictate nowadays.  Sure someone out there could create a game without he mumbo jumbo we all could naturally get good at, but those players would still be better than us anyway.  It really doesn't matter if the technical stuff is in or not, they win.


Phil doesn't have fun when I kick his ass in SF2 nor does any lower level player, it's frustrating.  I have played better people and also been frustrated, what game can still be enjoyed if you lose everytime? (I took off 25% of his life that time, yeah!)


Natural progression would lead to insane button combination, you wouldn't have to worry about dusting or crouch cancelling, you just would have to press the right buttons for 5 seconds to pull off some sweet move.  You're also not talking about higher skill levels, you're talking about the highest skill level, to be top tier in any game you have to know the ins and outs of it.

With this 'seeing stuff and learning from it' mantra, I've played tons of games (fighting and not) where someone pulls off some wack shit I want to learn.  I ask and I read which allows me to figure it out, I SEE what they did, and then learn how to do it.  It's not so hard, this shit isn't rocket science.


Once again, you can play at a high level without knowing that junk, just not the highest level.  The highest level isn't for you if you don't want to learn all the ins and outs, as you mentioned yourself, it stops being fun.  There will always be a highest level even if you remove most of the stupid crap, SF2 had a 'highest level', and we couldn't touch players at that level if we tried.

I just don't understand why there is a push to remove all the stuff Fighting Game junkies eat up because you don't feel like learning it, there are literally thousands of people across the US alone who LOVE this stuff and are as passionate as Hammer about it.  These are coincidently the same people who buy most of the Fighting Games so it makes sense that the companies cater to them.  Of course, once again, this is about SF4 which is not as ingrained as some of these other fighters, so there might not be a need to put anything overly complicated in it.  Then again if they don't put all the crap in it nobody will play it a year from now, because the guys who keep these games going are fighting game players.

SF2 came out 16 YEARS ago, it was just the beginning, every video game since then has gotten more complicated, we expect fighters to stay the same decades later?


It really doesn't, HAMMER would own you every single round if he wanted.  He's playing on a different level, I've played him many times in SF2, and like you I got good by playing the game on it's own.  In fact I got really good, I couldn't find anyone who could beat me before I played Hammer, but looks like things have changed.

Actually, they didn't. A lot of advanced techniques are literally discovered by exactly one person and then disseminated.


Holy shit you STILL AREN'T GETTING IT.

NOBODY IS SAYING "WAAH, I WANT TO WIN!" The complaint is NOT that better players are better. Jesus.



What the hell are you talking about? That's what you consider "natural progression"? The fuck?



Do you actually know *anything* about the highest levels of SF2 play? Here's a hint: it doesn't involve pressing the right buttons for 5 seconds to pull off a sweet move.

And once again, the point is NOT that worse players want to beat better players. That is an argument you are inventing.


"Thousands of people" is shit for a video-game. "Thousands of people" is utter failure. "Fighting game junkies" is a self-selective group because people who would be junkies stopped because the games mostly suck.

I'm sure there are eye-stab junkies, that doesn't mean "Eye Stabber 2" is a great game.


Wrong. Catering to a few thousand people is utter fail. 2D fighting games are in the gutter in part because companies have been catering to an increasingly niche market.


First of all, HAMMER sounds like a SF2 scrub to me (no offense), I doubt he would own me every single round. Second, THAT IS NOT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

For the thousandth time, nobody is complaining that better players can beat worse players. Jesus.

Ooki: I agree with a lot of the things that you are saying, I totally agree that there should be some high level stuff that requires some technical precision, but I also think that what is considered high level play in most fighting games is very difficult for a majority of people who play, and unfortunately, more casual players are the ones who are sinking the most amount of money into these franchises. I think that if a fighting game is to succeed, it needs to cater to these crowds in some way, while still not alienating the more serious group. I think they can do that by toning down the required level of skill needed for high level stuff and make it more noticeable. I think GG got this right to a degree, people playing see that something happened when someone Roman Cancels or False Roman Cancels. ( The screen flashes and the character glows red or blue and the announcer screams "romantic!") SO the other player knows that, "hey, that doesn't happen when I do stuff, what the hell is romantic? Oh there is, in the instruction book..." But the required execution for False Roman Cancels seems to be way to hard for many players, and this does cause a rift in the player base. Although I think that this rift is normal for any game of skill, I can see how people who don't play at that level could get frustrated by stuff that seems unecessarily difficult being so important to high level play. That being said, I still believe that most fighting games fall in the skill based game category, and that there will be stuff you learn as you go, and that the game should get deeper and more complex as you get better.

Margelis:

I think that you have some silly idea that SF mad it clear that there was combos, or cross ups or re-dizzies or wake up meaty attacks linking into other attacks. None of this is "Stuff you learn as you play" but it was learned as people played, then it made its way to us. Combos were a fluke to begin with in SF, that was the "high level BS" as as cross ups, everyone was wondering at the time what moves were cross up moves and which way to block them, it was more high level BS. You think that people just ran into the idea that, "hey, if I use a meaty (slow, strong) attack while he is waking up, I will catch him at the end of my moves hit frames, then he will be going through his whole hit animation while I can recover and launch another attack which will connect if I use a move with few start up frames!" C'mon.... You know SF went through its own discovery phase and you are trying play it off like people ran into that shit everyday. re-dizzy combos, tick throw set ups, ST juggle combos, back turned combos, across the screen SPD's, all this stuff was crap that only high level players knew and understood. A majority of the time, if a novice player got beat by that, they were wondering what the fuck just happened, why did they get hit on that jump kick? Why is that move comboing if it is not a linkable move? Why is it that if I block against bison he can tick me to death? SF had its share of expert play nonsence so quit bullshitting. 

On the Alpha 3 thing. I know how the game plays, and I personally don't like that game. It just is not my cup of tea, it moved too far away from SF, and the game just felt funky. It was mostly the counter hits and lack of balance that made me stop playing it. That and I am not personally into VC int hat style. I like the VC in Alpha 2. I really like playing Alpha 2 and sort of think that 3 was a set back mostly cause of the pace it was played and lack of balance. I think that I may have gotten into Alpha 3 Upper if it made it more possible to play the other Ism's or to not have VC combos be infinites. I am all for a combo doing a lot of damage if it is hard to do and hard to set up and what not, but I should not die at the beginning of the round (everyone starts with full super) simply cause I made a mistake. It is a lack of balance, the risk/reward really bad for people who play other Ism's and I personally like A and X. But seriously though, I hate the counter hits in Alpha 3, they just happen way too damn much and make the game feel way too different for me.

By the way I counter most Jenei-Gins than are thrown my way. I think this is cause I play a shit load of 3rd Strike and I can see the set ups coming from a mile away. Honestly though, that is Yun's bread and butter, he needs to be landing that shit, and saying no one can avoid it is like saying no one can avoid any other super, which is just plain bull shit. He may have a few more ways to land it, but every other character has a butt load of ways to land their super arts as well. I can agree that the meter fills too fast and drains too slow and the combos don't scale as well as they should, but that is how the character plays. I know why the move does so much damage though, and it is because everyone else's supers are automatic. You throw a super fire ball, you are done, Hammer Frenzy, done, XNDL, done. But Jenei-Gin activates then YOU have to do all the work. You have to make the opportunity, You have to know the moves that will keep the combo going, you have to time all your hits right, NONE of the damage is garanteed after the activation, or the first hit or any other hit. You have to make it all happen through perfect execution. SO I can see why he has more options into it, and why it can tack on the damage, but I think that the fast recharge time and overly powerful expert combos with the super kinda break it.

Big Black, all that stuff is in the GG instruction manual. GG is good and balanced and fun at all levels. It is a hard game to play, if it is too hard for you, and you don't like it, don't play it. If you know of a million other ways to make Guilty Gear better without FRC and RC and all the stuff that is in it, list some, cause I personally think GG is fucking awesome and is very well designed for what it is, a skill based fighting game with an emphasis on speed and execution.

Schild: If a fighting game I like it hard to play, I still play it and play with people who play at my level and get better with experience and practice.
VF and GG are very good examples of this.

Margelis: Wow, I am surprised you would call me a scrub. Not cause I think I am good or some shit, just cause I have not mentioned what I think of how you actually play SF at all, cause I can't tell how good you are by how you talk about it. I know people who talk a big game, but play like shit and people who don't seem to know much about the game technically but play incredibly well. But I never really thought about even playing you ha. Kinda makes you sound retarded.   :wink:

By the way, you post at SRK? And who do you play with that I might know from there? I played with many people from Cali, Texas, Vegas and junk and was wondering who you played with.

What? No, those WERE "stuff you learn as you play." That is exactly how people learned those things, trial and error and observation based on normal gameplay. I was there. There was no home version and no practice mode. People saw things happening, tried to understand them and tried to replicate them.

It's not a matter of making them clear in the instruction booklet or the announcer yelling out "romantic!" (WTF) It's a logical process. Hey, if I hit someone with a low short I can hit them with another low short and they can't block...hmmm...I wonder if I can do a low jab into low roundhouse with Zangief based on that same principle - oh look, I can!


Re-dizzy combos naturally follow from the gameplay, as do tick throws, and people were unwittingly doing tick throws on day 1, they just weren't sure exactly how. Same with crossups, same with combos. I was getting hit with Chun-Li's lightning legs the for combos on day 1.

Back turned combos and glitch SPDs...yeah those are a bit hard to learn by playing and also totally irrelevant to SF2 gameplay.

Edit: I called you a SF2 scrub because your SF2 complaints are classic scrub complaints - block stun lockdown, fireball traps. Most of what you say about SF2 doesn't make sense, especially telling me how the SF2 scene evolved when I was there in person at the time. For example the idea that some tactic "then it made its way to us." Wrong. I independently discovered those tactics, as did plenty of other people.

Sure there were things like the CPS1 chain or Guile handcuffs that nobody I knew independently discovered, but we were doing combos and crossups and tick throws because we figured all those things out by playing in the arcade, not because we read them in an instruction booklet or on the internet.

It seems like you fundamentally don't understand why SF2 was popular or what the SF2 scene was like at the time at all. Unlike today it was very provincial.

Edit2: I'll gladly dust off MAME and Kaillera for some SSF2T (or HF). Or any Capcom game. I haven't tried GGPO although A2 is my favorite Alpha game by far. Grudge match!

That's why I think this game will be a failure.  Firstly, if they hope to sell the game in anything like a decent quantity they'll have to make it a 3D fighting game; 2D won't cut it nowadays.  How in the hell do you do projectiles in a 3D fighting game without making the counter for it something as braindead as stepping aside?

You guys are looking for something that'll recreate the magic of SF2, and that's not going to happen.  It'd be like trying to bring back the "ooh, ah!" of Space Invaders or Pac-Man.  Not going to happen.

And people who are insanely devoted to this series are barely one step above the supahl33t MMO raiding catasses in my book.

That is the key question, should they try to capture the magic of SF2 or should they just make another SF game?

I'd prefer the former, but that won't happen without major changes. I like the Smash comparison: Smash is a fighting game that captured a new, much wider market and did have a sense of newness about it. I'm not saying I want SF4 to play like Smash, just that to do what Smash did it would have to be a significant gameplay departure.

Also I would point out that Smash plays 2D and has projectiles.

Most SF fans are self-selected and want SF4 to play exactly like SF3 with minor tweaks and a different roster. In way it makes sense, they want more of the classic gameplay. For my money I already have a bunch of 2D fighters that play pretty much the same, I'd prefer a much larger departure.

SF3 was an utter failure that didn't capture the imagination of anyone and was an also-ran from day 1. I'd rather not see that happen again.

Margelis: You think that people didn't just make up all the combos in GG or how to set up the best combo with Jenei-Gin? That is exactly what I am getting at, ALL THE HIGH LEVEL SHIT GETS FIGURED OUT. It was exactly the same In GG as SF, you observed all the RC and Fortress defense and  when you accidentally hit multiple buttons at the same time RC's would go off, people naturally hit RC's at points in their combos, they saw it messed with shit and crazy combos were made. You make it sound like all this stuff is completely impossible to do and that is BS.

It is funny that you bring up CPS 1 chain cause that is another advanced thing that most people didn't know. besides you and I almost no one here even knows how it works or what to use it for. I knew many people playing SF in the WW, Champ and Hyper days and played with many good players, and saw the vast difference in execution and advanced techniques and set ups used by good players.

On that scrub shit, really, I talked about the fire ball traps and stuff mostly because I personally don't like them. I see it is how the game played and it was a part of the game I didn't like. I played through it fine but I didn't like that certain matches broke down to that, especially as a Blanka/ Honda player. Getting vert balls and splash helped, as well as forward moving jumping fierce with Honda in ST, but I still thought that it was not fun when the game got to that.

What is really funny is you saying I am scrub cause I don't think fire ball traps are fun or interesting and then you bitch about execution and roman cancels and long combos.
Especially with that Alpha 2 comment. that game was all about random high level CC bullshit. CC in Alpha 2 are in now way friendly for new players.

We can play any of those games any time you want. I also have XBL and hyper fighting (which plays terribly) and we can play online 3rd strike of CVS2 or whatever. I have all the online stuff for XBL. It all plays like crap. I also play a lot of KOF so we can do that to. Come the 30th we can do some VF5 as well.   

Yes, what is it HUMMER FRONZY?

Hahahaha, nice. I choked on my sandwich.

Simple truth.

I've only been sticking around this thread waiting for somebody to get grief tittled.  Its gotta happen sooner or later.

Anyway, are there any things you guys would actually like to see in SF4? Do you think the game should take place way in the future, so the characters we know are old? OR should it take place right after SF3? What kinda stuff from other fighting games would you like to see in SF?

I want there to be a boxer character that comes off well.  Balrog always moved and punched in ways that suggested the artists had never seen a boxing match, and Dudley was a silly Rolls Royce driving ponce.

Oh, and if you finish the game as Sagat, he should finally get his real win and redemption over Ryu.  Sagat always gets fucked.

Multiple versions of each character, with ability variants.  If there's one thing I enjoyed about MUGEN, it was playing around with all the interesting characters people came up with that were variants on existing ones - Angel Ryu, Dark Chun Li, Strider Hien, Fallen Balrog, God Vega, etc. -- sort of the direction Smash Brothers Melee went, where you could play Fox or Falco, Captain Falcon or Gannondorf, Marth or Roy (the other 'copy characters' were kind of crap), with familiar yet different playstyles.

I really would love a good boxing character, but I really did like Rog and Dudely a lot too.

Do we have seperate SF2 HD thread?  I hate reopening old threads filled with custom combo hate.

Hammer have you seen this yet?

http://blog.capcom.com/archives/544 (http://blog.capcom.com/archives/544)

You live for this stuff.

Yeah I saw that, it was really interesting. I didn't post it cause I didn't know if anyone would be interested.

New updates for SSFTHDR.

http://blog.capcom.com/archives/558

It sounds like Sirlin is  making some good decisions. I love the fake fireball idea. I hope it is really tricky( like it is easy to fall for) and that it has some quick recovery for some nasty mix ups. I freaking love Ryu and this change will really help him out with Dhalsim and ass happy Honda's.

For some more interesting Honda stuff, in case any of you fellows play Honda, there is some pretty interesting stuff at SRK in the STHD thread about possible changes for Honda that sound pretty interesting.

Here's hoping Blanka gets his HF vertical ball back...Or god forbid...It hit mid... :ye_gods:

sir... sir... sir... stop

hammer kno 2 much fighter street game  :ye_gods:

I'm proud to say I started the Honda ball rolling.

Margalis: Hell yeah. He needs something to get out of FB traps and the jumping Fierce isn't cutting it. Also, it is totally trye what Choi said about down,back being what keeps him usable. Getting him out of having charged headbutt or sumo splash or stored oichi is the opponents game plan, and it is the Honda players main concern.

I think you mean Chen(sor), not Choi. Honda has always been a pet peeve of mine because his game is so one dimensional against so many opponents.

First Screenshot and info unveiled on 1up (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3164756).  Hands-on impressions and gameplay details to come in the Jan. issue of EGM (reaching stores sometime within the next several days). 

Also... 2D.

I just came. A lot.

(http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/4268/27896043za5.jpg)


Meh. I'm shameless and 1up.com's hosting sucks.

EDIT: LET'S TALK PREVIEWS

How the fuck could they call the system a GUESS if they've fucking played it. The moment the magazine hits stands it's all going to be on the net anyway. Jesus. Paper is dead. Get over yourselves. That's all I wanted to say.

Something about the art is really off. His face looks Native American and his legs are way too bulbous.

He looks look the Hulk. His pants are too small.

I very much doubt that's the actual in-game character model.

It's got to be a mock up. He looks placed on that scenery. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not far off. I happy to f'ing love it.

They might have played an Arcade version of it, but don't know yet if it's going to 360 or PS3.  That's about all I can think of.

There's pictures of the capcom blog with controllers photoshopped out. They forgot one of the PS3 controllers on the table in one of the pictures.

They know what system it is.

Then I guess they're just being dicks.  EGM subscribers should be getting their copies soon.  The magazine won't even get the chance to hit stands first, before everything gets leaked.

I should get mine in a few days.

The amount of curved surfaces on Ryu (the only flat polygon is his left heel) makes me believe that's a prerendered model or simply drawn artwork rather than the model that will be rendered in real-time.

Eh? Virtua Fighter 5 looks about that good. There's just a nice filter on this. Much like the new Valkyrie game in Japan.

Basically, completely plausible.

Also, his Gi is polygon-tastic.

Looks like E Honda in a Ryu getup. Or at least... Piston Honda.

Ha this looks nice.

Schild: Remember our "Dimps might do this game" conversation, which you said "no way" to? I told your silly ass that I smelled Dimps all over this...

Kotaku is the only place reporting Dimps.

Others are reporting internal capcom team with the Onimusha director.

I heard that as well, but man the teaser video looked like Rumble Fish...(blue move cancel dash and everything) No Shit. And Dimps and Capcom are cool with each other to boot. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if it was a "internal Capcom team" consisting of the entire Dimps RF team.. Ja. 

Hey!  I just had this great idea for SF4....

That picture proves this could look really cool, the backround looks nifty.  But Ryu looks dumb, the feet are huge, the legs aren't quite right and the face isn't right either.

Supposedly leaked (and somewhat shitty looking) screenshots and gameplay details (http://www.destructoid.com/rumor-new-info-and-pictures-from-street-fighter-iv-leaked-58045.phtml).  If these are actual screenshots, hopefully they're just not done with the character models yet as Ken looks pretty terrible.  This isn't the EGM stuff mind you, it apparently comes from a Brazilian gaming blog.

Of course they're not anywhere near done with the character models. Game is a year away. But that shit is hot.

Ok, now I'm excited.

Nothing wrong with Balrog by the way. It's not like Ryu, Ken, or Chun Li are accurate depictions of Karate and Kung Fu either.

That being said, I'm sure Vega and Akuma will make the list at least. I'll be happy.

Heads will roll if there is no Guile.

More images. Game takes place between SF2 and 3. No more parry. There is some sort of dash cancel...(Dimps' Rumble Fish "Advanced Attack" cancel style thing)
I guess the multiple Super are thing is gone too, back to one super art ( ST style) and an "Ultra" art. (?)

(http://www.blogeek.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/sfivscreen001.jpeg)

(http://www.n4g.com/M/8/Images//90000/90833_med.jpg)

I personally like the big hands/feet and small heads look from SFIII, so this is all looking cool to me.

Nice touch adding the logo on Ryu's gloves in the game model as well. Nod to the Akiman...

Man, Ken does not look cool at all.

I'd like to take this opportunity to laugh heartily at everyone who thought that the first trailer was in-game footage.

HA!  HA!

I don't know why anyone would have thought that.

Like, anyone.

But I can see why people thought the game would be in that style (even that was pretty stupid though).

Cel-shaded 3D suits the legacy of the series well.  What takes me by surprise is the detail to the expressions.

I think it really suffers, esp the facial expressions because I instantly compare it to TF2 in my head which means autofuckingfailure.

1up show (http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/16818) has some gameplay videos if you can suffer through everything else.

Waiting for some crazed fan at neogaf to edit the relevant parts into divx. Also, I'd expect the PS3 and 360 to get a video shortly in hi-def.

The linked video at least is shortened down to just the SF IV segment, and there is a lot of gameplay details in there.  Fuckin small ass picture though.

The videos of this game bring my enthusiasm to an all time low. Their faces looked like ass. The animation looks really crummy and it just doesn't look like it will bring a lot of new stuff to the table, which, I guess is what they are trying to do. I think that I am a little disappointed in this so far. The only saving grace is that Diago Ikeno is doing art for it. That guy is a monstro. He scary me.  :ye_gods:

Is it me or should Ryu have not opened his mouth so damn wide, and shouldn't barf be pouring out? Does anybody besides me miss people getting hit so hard they vomit? I still love that.

Ha yes I love the old vomit.

Agree completely with the comments. I could not be less excited.

Margalis: It sucks, I really don't know what to think about the whole thing. I can see the producer has his head on straight, and he means well. In the last interview he had I agreed with a lot of his points. ( I personally like SF III: Third Strike quite a bit, even if it is kinda silly) And I do think that there has been no other companies that have touched that games 2d goodness in some time. But I can't get into the new look to save my life and that is just weird cause it is supposed to e modeled after Akiman's stuff with art direction by Ikeno...It really couldn't be any better but it all feels so wrong.

I am sure it is all going to at least be playable and I will still enjoy myself but the whole thing just seems like it is trying to avoid moving forward in any way, and I think the series needs that at least in some degree.

Currently all I am playing anymore is Hyper Fighting, KOF XI and NGBC, and it is holding me off alright, but it is weird to see that SNK of all people are the ones that keep the light burning. They have had all kinds of shots at 3d KOF and they weren't too bad. Capcom needs SFIV to be at least as good as MI3 and that is asking a lot. That game is really good for what it is. 

I want to remain enthusiastic but goofy faces and bland animations make me cringe...

Scans from Famitsu showing of some of the other characters in very small screenshots (http://ruliweb.empas.com/ruliboard/read.htm?table=game_ps04&page=1&num=38274&main=ps&find=&ftext=).

I wonder what's really going to separate it from the SF HD version besides just art? This is looking more and more like a standard iteration of Street Fighter, and as far as I'm concerned, the original character designs are better.

I like all the current design except the new character.

Shit. Just ugly.

Also, I think Zangief and Blanka look awesome. It's tough to translate the original drawings though. They should've gone hi-res 2D or cel-shaded. But I won't bitch and moan, someone at Ngaf translated all of the stuff in Famitsu and it sounds pretty great.

Chun-lis thighs could envelope the universe.

It is a bit strange that we are getting 2 versions of SF2 with upgraded graphics at the same time.

I'm not a fan of the art for the characters but the in-game models appear to look pretty good judging from the tiny tiny screens.

You guys might want to check out the new in-game videos on 1up, I still don't have much of an opinion other then I kinda wish there were more new characters.

The spinning piledriver was a thing of beauty. Nice 3D versions of the SF2 characters.

I know this is going to sound stupid because we're talking about a series full of broad cultural stereotypes + a green dude with red hair, but the new characters just seem out of place to me.

I kinda felt that way when Super Street Fighter II came out.

Also no Vega or Sagat would be fucking epic fail.  So hopefully that isn't the full character list in those vids.

Definitely Vega. Sagat I could do without. [edit] Eh wait... They go hand in hand, don't they?

Also would like additional characters (read Akuma). Always thought Remy and Charlie were cool too, but... I'm sure most would just say they're faggier versions of Guile, I guess. I'd be fine with just Guile and Chun-Li though.

There's no way that's the whole roster. Video at 1up clearly shows there's spots for at LEAST 6 more characters if not 12.

I expect to see Dan, Bison, Balrog, Vega, and Sagat return. If not Dan, maybe Cammy. And at least 1 more new characters though one might be hidden (and by hidden I mean broken and gay).

Problem is, I don't know how the storyline pieces together because lore for fighting games is laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame.

Butbut, schild, Sonya got banned from the tournament because she cheated!

I'm not sure how green that is.  :drill:

I love, love, love the camera movements that are occurring on supers.  I wonder if there is a hit is absolutely guaranteed if it does that dramatic movement.  Really feels like a more artistic, cinematic version of game play.

The lore is about the only interesting thing about these games anymore.  Its all pretty much the same fucking games since 1990 or so when SF2 first came out.
Its like FPSes with even less to differentiate between games.  (Fighters don't exactly push the technology envelope all too much.  Even the 3d ones.)

That and the fighting game morons who are always playing Guilty Gear something or other are annoying.  Why the comic shop lets them sit there and play it, disturbing our nice miniatures wargames is beyond me.
This one late teens early 20s kid yells "WHAAAAT?" every 20 minutes or so for like 4 hours.  He got into a hissy fit because he was getting owned (You would figure playing the exact same videogame every week for 3 months plus would either get boring or you would get good at it but apparently not..) and left.  All the other fighting game players or the boring weeaboos watching them all left.  It was quiet and kickass for the rest of the afternoon.   

SF4 has yet to show me anything new about it.  Other than the graphics which frankly look HIDEOUS.  Everyone is ugly.

(http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/2032/awesomeheugwz3.png)

I'm making that my desktop background.

Quoted for effectiveness.


...

As if a GIANT :AWESOME FOR REAL: smiley wasn't effective enough.

It isn't on a 1920x1200 desktop.

We need a super hero with that face as the logo on his chest.

I'm not really getting SFIV. I like the graphics and animation for the most part but the faces look terrible.

I don't get bringing back all the old characters with basically the same moves. It's more like a 3D SF2 than a new game. That doesn't really excite me. I've been playing SF2 for 15 years.

They're really in a bind in that sense - damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Like I said, between the revamped HD version of SF2 and this, I'll take the former. I'll stick with what I know and what works -- this time in high def. Looks better and more than likely, it'll be cheaper too.

They need to do more to make the newer title stand out.

Yeah, that's the other odd part. And the HD version comes with a remixed mode with some move changes and additions. Do we need two new variations on SF2 in the same timeframe? Originally HD was supposed to be out fall/winter, but now it will probably be out at around the same time. Weird.

Sagat and Balrog have been added to the game, although at least for the moment only as bosses.

That way in a year when they become playable we can all buy the game again.

I'm gonna have to withold judgment on this one. I'd be happy if it were an awesome game and brought new life back into the title and the genre. But the potential for suck is high.

If anyone has $2590 to burn, they can pre-order the PCB kit. (http://www.shopncsx.com/streetfighterivpcbkit.aspx)

Cory Jacobs and I were going to save up for it. I figured that's what they would charge just for the harddrive with the game on it. But it comes with the Taito X2 hardware. Tempting. Maybe.

A friend of mine has a CPS2 arcade cabinet with ST and SFA1 boards.

Got some screens.  Look great :

Tiger! (http://uppercut.ytmnd.com/)

I hate to necro a month-old thread, especially to reply to a post even older, but hearing HF talk about "changes" like it's just Street Fighter 2, Version 1.99999 pretty much made any interest I had in this game curl up and die.

Well HD Remix is just that. A re-drawn re-release for download that has an optional rebalanced version of the original game. Aside from the new sprites, music, and presentation, the only thing of any value in the release is the new stuff that will be re-balanced.

Looking somewhat better (for some of the characters anyway).

(http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/871/871103/street-fighter-iv-images-20080501030432778_640w.jpg)
(http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/871/871103/street-fighter-iv-images-20080501030420560_640w.jpg)
(http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/871/871103/street-fighter-iv-images-20080501030506730_640w.jpg)
(http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/871/871103/street-fighter-iv-images-20080501030450699_640w.jpg)

oh god that's awesome.

Looks good, but Ryu's expression in that second shot is friggin hilarious. :ye_gods:

Mmm.. I can't wait to use that Vega cheese.  ;)

I can't say I'm interested in 2D fighters anymore but some of you might like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQNd3UbVd1c) gameplay vid.

Vega looks rad.


It's not 2D necessarily... Although it is functionally.

Not that it matters to me. 3D hasn't really brought or changed much. The best games in my opinion are still the 2D ones. And even the really good 3D ones play out like 2D anyways.

Footage of just about all of the characters (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/34777.html).

Even though there's a fair chance it won't be near as good as SFII, I just want to say that I fucking love Capcom. That is all.

It's a pretty game, I'll give it that.

The more I see of it, the more it looks like old school SF game play. Then again, that is exactly what the problem is...

Guile - The crotch whisperer

http://crotchwhisperer.ytmnd.com/ (http://crotchwhisperer.ytmnd.com/)

SF II = greatest fighting game ever (and all variations, champ edition being my favourite).

Timing Dragon punch to hit one of blankas rolling attacks ftw.

Love me the SF2.  However this game is exactly the same. Yawn.

hmm

Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom trailer (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/237105.html).

Oh god....kobun....tron bonne....gatchaman.....I...no...no NO! This won't come out in the US in a million years, fie! a pox upon your house for showing me heaven and then snatching it from my hands!

Doesn't matter. PS3 is region free.

It's coming to America, whether they want it to or not! Boo ya.

I would buy a ps3 for this game and this game alone.

n-n-n-n-n NECRO

I want to argue w/ Hammer, I thought about taking it to pm's but since I'm so gloriously right I'd rather do it in a public space.  I am no qualified to have the debate I was having earlier, but my position hasn't changed.

I've now put at least 20 hrs /played into GGXX AC, its fun.  But some of the high end stuff is frustratingly esoteric.  First of all, all 3 types of cancels (you are reading that right 3 types, wtf) are stupid.  You will never ever come upon them in natural gameplay.  Instead you have to go to the training area and test and test and figure it out.  Its bad enough that you really need to go to dustloop.com to help guide you along the combo pathways.  Faultless defense, not clear, the entire concept is strange and confusing.  The game is built around being stupid-complex.  It just is.  Anyone who can't understand why 2d fighting games don't have universal popularity and the community is fucking super eat their young is an idiot.

I've had some fun trying to learn this shit, but mostly its been fucking painful.  I know how something is supposed to work, but learning a game system that I can't see the benefits of naturally is really hard.  So in closing.  I was totally right.  It seems like I'll need to put another 20 hrs in the training mode, instead of playing versus my lil brother if I want to actually learn the shit that is left to learn.  Being forced to play a game against the AI standing there in order to l2p?  Fucking failure. 

Lastly though, I have a question.  I will get SFIV when it comes out, I'm getting my own copy of GGXXAC but now that I have my PS3, what other fighters are worth getting?  Capcom v SNK2?  One of the SF collections for laughs?  Halp.  I'd like to get my hands on the 2d fighter that will not remind me of GG while I'm working on mastering it.

Sadly the only console I think it has been announced for so far is the Wii (in Japan).

Already announced for PS3 and 360. For the entire world. In multiple interviews. It's buried in every SFIV thread on NeoGAF.

You have to keep in mind that all the shit your bitching about really doesn't show up until you are playing really decent players. That being said, putting the time into learning the system and getting your timing down will push you into a different skill level all together. You will never have to use False Roman Cancels against your little brother, and honestly practicing them just for that is kinda harsh. That stuff is there for those who wish to learn it. Do you need it? IF you want to beat the best, yes, but if you play casually, you wont. And this whole, dustloop thing, I learned Testament pretty much by myself. You just have to have a decent handle on how Guilty Gear works, what you are trying to accomplish, etc. The combo system is so fucking laxed that making stuff up is a breeze. You will have to look up staple "best practices" combos if you want to get retarded good, but that is beside the point. That is like bitching about Street Fighter having link combos or terribly hard timing on comboed supers in ST. The advanced shit is there because breaking a fighting game down to simple stuff and not having a higher level of gameplay that requires some tight execution makes high level play boring fast. Really though, you don't have to worry about any of this if you just are playing with your friends/ brother.

I CAN say that there are some things in that game that are just plain tough as nails. FRC Chemical Love combos with Ino. That is hard, but that also falls into the the whole, "you only need that at high level play" because really she has LOTS of options that don't require those combos or the setups that lead into those combos. They are much easier and you would smack most of the people you play right the fuck around with a solid foundation of her ranges, moves and basic combos.

I have to admit that fighting games are hard sometimes, but I also think that it is okay for some fighting games to just not be for you. For all the silliness that Guilty Gear is known for on the execution side of things, it also leads to some pretty damn awesome meta game options and incredibly interesting fights at the higher level. And hell it looks cool at low level to intermediate level play too.

You really can't bitch about a game asking you for more than you are willing to give, then assume that your threshold for this type of thing is the general consensus. A lot of people really like that game and Arc Systems keeps ithhte way it is cause to be honest, it is one of the best 2d fighters ever made BECAUSE of all the options it has and because those options require some skill. Keep in mind that you could practice this and get it down like nothing. I have seen players go from not ever playing Guilty Gear to FRC'ing moves with tight windows in no time. It all is based on the motivation you have that usually comes form a competitive, healthy scene/group of players.   

To clarify, I'm talking about Tatsunoko vs. Capcom, which to the best of my knowledge hasn't been confirmed for PS3 and 360 yet.

SF4 release date announced. (http://www.capcom-unity.com/kramez/blog/2008/11/14/street_fighter_iv_coming_home_feb_17_n_america_and_feb_20_europe).  Feb 17th for NA, Feb 20th for Europe.

This game is making me want to buy an XBOX360 and/or PS3. Also, I hear rumors about the NA collector's edition coming with an "authentic copy" of RYU'S HEADBAND! Must...resist....!!1!

I've been playing this game at the arcade and it is awesome as hell. I am all over this when it comes out. Sunday I am back in the arcade, this game is just too damn hot.

Release date draws near!

We have a custom arcade setup where we plan to run the PC version of the game like it was the arcade. I'm still picking this up for 360 though. The game feels way more solid than SF3 and I greatly appreciate not having to deal with super spam that has become a trademark of certain (top tier) characters in SF3.

I could give a fuck about the game, but I might buy the cheaper arcade stick or the fighting game pad.

I have so many retrogame collections and XBLA arcade games that a nice USB controller with a decent directional pad/stick could be useful.

Got this.

Fuck me, it's good. It's insanely good. Capcom did the right thing by giving it to another studio.
There are little lacks of polish here and there, like how El Fuerte's idle animation doesn't cycle properly, or how only the fighter's mouth moves while they deliver their line after getting locked locked into their victory pose, but it's an absolutely amazing product.

Suffers from having to unlock all the characters if you bring it to a mate's house, but even the standard rooster is varied enough to give you generous ammounts of fun.

Didn't have high hopes for this, since i'm a raving KoF'98 fanboy, but SF4 is great.

Do not play with the standard Xbox 2 controller.

So the question is, is it really worth swapping out the stick and buttons on my Hori PS3 stick for Sanwa parts?  I haven't been to an arcade in so long I forgot what a real stick feels like. 

Or better yet, has anything been announced regarding the release of the Mad Catz Tournament Edition stick?  Is it a LE thing or will I be able to find one in a couple months?

Sanwa parts are what they use in Japanese arcades.

I have an Arcade in a Box stick. It has concave buttons (pushed in) and a standard US-style clicky stick. Works great.

Japanese arcades use the sticks with the balls on the end that don't click and convex (raised) buttons. When I was in Japan I tried to play Anniversery Edition and I couldn't do shit on it. Definitely takes getting used to.

The main thing for me is how big and heavy the total package is. Arcade in a Box is huge and immobile, which is good.

Whoa those look very nice Margalis.  Thanks for the link, I think I found my next stick.

Sanwa and Seimitsu ball tops do in fact click, there's just multiple varieties. I have clicking ones right here on the Egret 2 behind me. Also, a note on the Japanese sticks and buttons versus the american ones. The throw on both the stick and the buttons is shorter. That is to say, less is more. After having spent time on my cab, I don't even like HAPP Bat top sticks and concave american buttons.

Fighting game fans are crazy.  I'm almost tempted by SFIV just for memories of throwing away quarters when I was 16, but then I read threads like this and think, "Nah, I just don't have this level of obsession".

Gulp: just play to the level you feel comfortable with. If you play with friends, your skill level will increase at a decent clip and you will still be having fun. SF is not the problem, jerky players are, but luckily there are some good players on this board that like to play and I am sure would show you some fun stuff. If you get it and you get the 360 version, get some games in with me!

My friends don't play fighting games except for the occasional 1-2 rounds of Fight Night or Soul Calibur.  You know why?  They're not crazy.

Seriously, though, thanks for the invite.  I just don't think I could justify $60 for SF4 when at most it can only hold my attention for 15 minutes.  Not when I've got gaming epics on my horizon like Empire: Total War.

I hear ya man. Well if you ever decide to get into it when the game is in the bargin bin or whatever, I will most likely still be playing it. Margalis too. And I would be more than happy to show you why playing fighting games doesn't make you crazy, they just give you reasons to learn a little bit more about something you enjoy, till you realize you have learned a huge amount about them. Really, good fighting games age like good strategy games. There is usually a lot going on and there is almost always a new experience or strat/technique to learn.

sigh....fighting games... :heart:

monkey edit: I forgot to mention that the prima strat guide for sf4 is really good. It has a lot of information, really well put together and covers stuff from the simplest stuff to the really in depth (frame counting) silliness. It is a good buy and well worth the price. If anyone is lost and wants a good place to start, check that out and ALSO check out the SF4 for beginners/3rd strike players at gootecks.com and of course check our shoryuken.com

Today is the day suckas. I will be online after work, if you get sf4 for the 360 play with me! (see you there marg!)

napkinschematic (xbl)

God damn, it looks like I'm going to have to wait until tomorrow evening to pick it up at which time I'll be too tired to play.  Torture...

I picked it up during lunch today. I will be playing it during my next break!!!  :heart: :heart: :heart:

I don't feel like spending the money right now and I don't have the time, but I almost forgot how crazy you fighting game players are.

 :heart: :awesome_for_real: :heart: :grin: :heart: :ye_gods: :heart: :uhrr: :heart: :drill:

SFIV owns my fucking ass.

That is all.

PS: 

I better get out of work in time to pick it up.  16 hour days suck.  BLAH!

PS:  Screw you jerks :p

We got it and two of the joysticks yesterday but our roommate wouldn't give up the TV as he was playing Halo.

I hear it's fun.   :oh_i_see:

I was fairly well chomping at the bit to go out and nab this motherfucker, and then I considered a huge, huge problem.  WHICH VERSION?  All things being equal, I'd prefer the 360 version, but the control is shit for this kind of game...and I'm just not sure I want to invest in a stick (or DO I?).  OTOH, the PS3 controller would be smooth and dreamy, but I don't really know anyone who plays on that machine.

ARGH!

Should I be able to get the game, it will be the PS3 version.

Since EX moves require triple button presses, and factoring that having to press the shoulder buttons while your thumb is located atop the face buttons is discomforting, you'll have to buy an arcade stick either way. I'd go with the ps3 version simply because there's no LIVE fee.

The versions are near identical, with the 360 one being a hair brighter. They look pretty much identical though. If you get one, get an arcade stick either way, or at least a fight pad. The game will be unfun on a regular 360/ps3 pad.

The netcode for this game bottles the mind. It is great. It runs the same on both systems with the typical stability/larger playerbase on the 360 side, but either is just fine. Get the version that will allow you to play with your friends. Playing online is all fine but playing in person is awesome. That being said if none of your friends will be playing it, get the version that you will play online with most. fighting games are all about comp. gotta go where the playerbase that you want to play with is at.

I am using the hori ex2 stick. I recently used the $80 madcatz stick and am not feeling it. IF you can find the le stick ($150) that stick is freaking awesome. A hori ex 2 will be more than sufficient though.

Ohhh Bottled Mind. Is that like Red Bull?

Yeah, like an anchorman reference.  :oh_i_see:

Picked it up for the 360.  Still need to get a stick though.

So much fun.  I really want one of those Arcade-In-A-Box sticks now!  Next month I guess.

I'm using the Hori PS3 stick.  It's certainly better than the ps3 controller but I really want an honest to god arcade stick.  I have for years now.

I bought one of these (http://www.xgaming.com/solo.shtml) back in the day for the Dreamcast version of SF3. It was nice because it has an adapter to use on other consoles, so you don't have to worry about buying new ones for each system. Alas, it won't work for the 360 because Microsoft are raging assholes (http://www.xgaming.com/xbox-360-arcade.shtml) but those of you with PS3's might like them. The parts were pretty good quality, my favorite part was the heft of the device. You can plant it on the floor or a table and it doesn't move or wobble around at all. A little bulky for your lap though.

Got my copy, forgot to pick up a wireless headset though. I'll be on late nights if anyone wants to play. I don't really know anything about the game at all, been avoiding info.

marg: I will be playing later tonight. Man this game is soooo damn fun. Get a damn mic you weenie!

$60 for a 2D fighting game, $60 and up for a fighting stick.  You people are fucking nuts.

I was willing to plonk down $15 for the HD remix, but this is where sane people draw the line.

But $199 for Rock Band is perfectly ok.  Different strokes.

Considering I'll still be playing this next year and probably the one after that, plunking down on the game and a nice controller doesn't seem that silly.

This is the first game in a while that i will not be reading any reviews for. It's that fun to me, and thats all that matters. So well executed, well designed, good art. I know I'm gushing but, it's pure and simple fun.

SO true.  I mean really, what hobby CAN'T you spend lots of money on that someone else doesn't go "you're nuts!" when you do?

Okay, very true points.  It's just that I can't see how fighting games can keep anyone's attention for all that long.  I like them well enough, but in limited doses.  The thought of blowing a good chunk of change on them boggles me.  I don't begrudge anyone their fun, I just don't get it.

Just how I can't see how racing or sports games can keep anyone's attention for all that long, or how some of my friends think the same way about my obsession with euro board games.  There's nothing special about Fighting games that makes this form of criticism more applicable to them.

Most likely because you never really learned to play one of the good ones. Doesn't even have to be ridiculously complex shit like Guilty Gear.

Haven't gone online yet, since I'm only a casual player of fighting games and I figure I'll just get my ass beat.  So for now I've just been trying to unlock all the characters, and messed around with the challenge mode.  Beat the game on Normal pretty easily with Ken, Ryu, and Sakura.  Even beat it fairly easily with Abel, which was unexpected since he's a new character and I didn't really know how to use him at first (picked it up pretty quickily though).  Then I tried to beat it with Chun Li, who I probably used the most back in the old days of SFII, and it took me for-fucking-ever.

Maybe someone here who plays these games at a higher level can shine some light on the subject, but is Chun Li just shit in this game or something?  I can do all her moves (although the Super/Ultra can be hard to pull off sometimes since I'm still just using a standard 360 controller), but she just doesn't seem to be on the same level as the other characters I've tried so far.

I got this as well, and I'm loving it. I'm not an arcade-stick-using pro, but I do love me some Street Fighter. If anyone wants to go a round on Xbox Live, I'm game (XBL Zarix).

Fake Edit: How do you invite your friends to a match? Selecting them on my friends list the "Invite to Game" option is greyed out.

Dude, I'm 34 years old.  Trust me when I say that a good two years of my teenage life were sunk into Street Fighter and I got quite good playing with my buddies.  Now?  My buddies live in different states and are all married and have kids.  The days of me endlessly playing fighting games are over.  They're a nice diversion, but not the obsession they once were.

ETA:  Maybe another big part of my aversion to the game is that it isn't in the arcade.  Street Fighter always seemed most fun to me hanging out at Pinball Pete's, smoking underage, and calling your buddies out on their cheapass tactics.  Sitting on the couch?  Where's the ambiance?

Gulp: Holy crap...I really am more surprised how difficult it seems for you to accept that people actually like to play fighting games. Also on the stick thing, you can use the arcade sticks for other fighting games and all your arcade style xbla/psn games. It is a good investment if you like those style of games.

I play in my living room quite often with my friends and sometimes we have a get together and we throw down some matches. After this long it really is like playing chess with a good pal.

Last, I don't know what is all the hate for Guilty Gear. Different strokes man. Yes the game is execution heavy, but that game is fucking unbelievably good. If it is not for you, that is fine, but that does not make the game not good. In my opinion, it is is easily one the most well balanced, innovative and well constructed fighting game franchise ever made.

PS we should start posting strats and crap. And all the people playing this game here need to play online together. I am currently using Balrog (boxer) and ryu. I am dabbling with Dhalsim as well. So far I really like the game. The control feels good, the combos are not too hard to pull off and the focus system is really well done.

If there is anything people are having problems with, or if they don't understand how something works, I would be more than happy to share everything I have gathered so far.

On that note, crap with ryu...

You can combo the ultra after the shoryuken. if you have the meter for ultra, end your combos with the shoryuken. I was doing

jump in roundhouse/cross up forward, standing fierce -> shoryuken ->focus attack dash cancel -> ultra.

if they block the whole combo up to the SRK you can focus dash cancel into a forward dash -> throw or focus dash cancel backwards and srk their counter.

additionally you can combo a standing/crouching jab after the gut punch(forward + fierce) and you can still combo crouching short/forward/roundhouse after the collar bone breaker (forward + strong)

You can also focus attack dash cancel right after a hadoken to chase behind it.
 

What hate? GG is fucking awesome. It's complexity is also ridiculous. Venom stuff, FRC's. That shit, it's crazy. It's the perfect poopsocker's fighting game. Part of the reason it's so damn well balanced is because they've been working on it since GGX.

And this is why I won't be playing against you guys online.  As soon as I read that focus attack cancel shit in the instruction manual I thought "fuck, this is why I usually don't pick up these games".

The damn Tournament Sticks are sold out and won't be available until April. Ugh.

If you sit around a bit in training mode practicing it, it's surprisingly easy to pull it off, provided you're not using the standard controller.

velorath: have some matches with me and I will show you all this stuff. it is easy. It just sounds like a lot but it really isn't.

Don't know if my connection sucks and thus the game is trying to match me with other people who have shit connections, but I tried some online play today and it didn't work out too well.  I won three out of four matches, but it took me forever to get into each game.  Going to quick match (in ranked play) shows three names all with bad connections.  Selecting any of them would invariably give me a "unable to join, this game is full" message, or just an "unable to play" message.  Going to custom match you can select connection as the main priority for a search.  Doing that, it would take a minute for the search to run, and then I'd see maybe one or two people with good connections, but their games would already be full by the time I selected them, and then rather than allowing you to try one of the other names on the list, it sends you back to the search options, where you have to do another search.  Made my own game, waited for a few minutes and nobody jumped in.

Out of two of the occassions I got into a game, the other player seemed to lose connection partway through, so their characters just stood there while I beat them.

velo: im online right now. Napkinschematic

if you want to have a few matches.

Appreciate the offer, but I probably won't go online again until after I've tracked down a stick (Hori's EX 2 is the only thing I see for the 360 in the price range I'm looking for, and like all the sticks it's sold out right now).

I've found the easiest way to get matches online is to just turn on Arcade Request and play arcade mode. I usually get at least one Online match per computer I fight.

Fuck Zangief.

That aside, I find it fairly odd/intriguing that people are so willing to embrace SF4's difficulty and sing it's praises when those same folks would piss on games like Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry.  Arguably, they aren't the same genre but the level of difficulty isn't that much different, at least in my eyes.  Granted, I haven't played an SF game regularly since my arcade stints in the early 90s but SF4, assuming it's not just me, isn't "easy" when it comes to the first player mode? 

I'll agree that it's always going to be more fun when playing with your roommates.  On the other hand, fucking Zangief would throw my Sagat's ass any damn time he even got within reach.   Guess I should learn to keep out of his reach? Heh.

Netcode is amazing.

I find the fastest way to get matches is to host a lobby.

The boss fight against Seth is the only part of the game I'd classify as being hard.  Well, depending on the character I'm using anyway.  When I was trying to unlock all the characters (which ultimately requires beating the game with everyone to unlock Seth), there were some characters that either I sucked at, or just weren't very good that got me more frustrated than any video game has made me since I was a kid (urge to throw the controller and all that).  I eventually bitched up and set the game to easiest and 1 round, just to beat the game with all the characters I hated.  I can breeze through Hard for the most part using Ken, but then constantly get my ass kicked when I get to Seth. 

I piss on DMC 3 and 4 because it's got a bunch of time wasting filler in between boss fights that you have to go back through when the bosses kill you.  Didn't get to play Ninja Gaiden much because I didn't own an Xbox.  Ninja Gaiden 2 doesn't seem particuarly hard, and at least when you die at a boss, it restarts you at that boss.  The most annoying part of dying in that game is the load time.

Had a little bit more luck getting matches tonight.  Still don't want to get into online play too much without a stick, but they're pretty much sold out everywhere until god knows when (lot of sites don't seem to be predicting shipments until April), so I messed around with it a bit more.  For whatever reason, I've noticed that when I'm hosing matches, I seem to end up fighting more skilled players. 

As far as lag goes, some matches have been better than others for me.  Sometimes it seems like the less noticable the lag is, the harder it can be for me to pull off some moves.  Maybe the game is just more forgiving when the connection isn't all that great?  There have been a couple matches with no noticable lag where I couldn't pull off a dragon punch to save my life, but maybe it's just me.  In a lot of the laggier games I've been in, I've still been able to pull off super and ultra combos with little problem.

I suppose a better question is whether you remember'd and, if so, were able to complete previously known moves?

What's the barrier of entry for someone that's never played a Street Fighter game before?  Do you assume that they've played some sort of fighter before and, as such, know "down-quarter-forward" or whatever the fuck it's called?

Suppose I've forgotten the reason behind all of the quarters that I lost years back in the arcade when playing SF.  Teach me interactively, please?  The addition of a training room is great but they completely missed the opportunity to do it within the actual arcade section.

In addition to the training room, you might want to check out the challenges also (not the time or survival trials but the challenges they have for each character).  They could hold players' hands a bit more I agree, but I don't think the barrier of entry is any higher than it was for most of us when we first tried SF2.

I remember most of the characters moves from SF2, although most of my experience was with the SNES game, so Pre-Championship Edition (can't play any of the SF 2 bosses all that well), Pre-Turbo (before Chun Li had a fireball), and Pre-Super (Fei Long is the only one of those four characters I've ever really messed around with).  I tend to stick with Ken and Ryu mostly because it's easier for me to do moves that involve quarter circles on the 360 controller than it is for me to do any sort of charge moves.  As I mentioned before, I was also able to figure out the new character Abel with a minimum of effort and beat normal difficulty with him with relative ease.

Sadly, I saw some character strategy videos for various characters up on the Live marketplace for 80 points each (or 400 for all 7), so part of the reason they don't have an in-depth in-game tutorial for each character might be because they're trying to monetize it.  They've already got a costume pack on sale for 320 points also.

Willing to admit that I'm just out of practice but that's the first that I've heard about the marketplace vids :(

On Seth:

Several characters have moves that you can spam as soon as Seth gets up, and he'll eat them nearly every single time. A good example is C.Viper's qcb+LP, another is Rufus' qcf+HP, and with shoto you can dragon punch your way to victory.
Should you decide to play a character that doesn't have a move that Seth eats every single time, like Dan  :awesome_for_real:, you can just crouch and turtle until he does that standing kick that chains into 17 kicks, at which point you can combo HP+anything.

So, y'know, cheese.

Zangief can be tough in the right hands, but you shouldn't have too much of a hard fight if you are playing Sagat. Remember that you want to fight defferent opponents with different strats. With gief you just gotta keep him out. Throw lots of tiger shots and sweep when he tries to lariat through them and tiger knee/uppercut if he green hands through them. Don't play the inside game with him. stay at your distance and when he messes up and throws out the hand and you have meter/ultra, counter with the tiger knee, focus attack dashcancel-> toward + roundhouse -> ultra. That combo is the bees knees.

Keep gief out.

The Prima guide apparently named Sagat as the top tier character

This all confuses me. I'd play more, but the 360 controller is trash and I can't afford a stick.

My roommate hasn't much fighting game experience and got extremely frustrated that he couldn't even do an Ultra motion. He just needs practice but sucking at these games when you know you're a good gamer can be discouraging.

Ok. I'm loving this. But what the fuck Abel. WHAT THE FUCK.

Yeah, his grapple is a bit overpowered  :oh_i_see:

A bit?!

Also, gief is sort of a monster.

That's what happens when you don't learn anything (or just decide to ignore the design decisions completely) from KoF grapplers  :awesome_for_real:

Explain yourself.

Try to grapple someone just as they get up. (kof98-2k2)

Seth crushed my balls in on hard. I don't understand why he's so much more difficult than any of the fights leading up to him. I can understand making him a BIT harder, but to breeze through to the very end boss and just get curb-stomped pisses me off. I think I got to the second round, ONCE, and then I find out he actually speeds up. He can already throw me out of jumps and use his ultra in between my moves, it's kind of unfun.

I end up having to bug out the AI to even get that far. I found that you can jump over him, he'll uppercut, miss, and you can land and uppercut him yourself, jump over him again, etc.

(I beat him fine on medium and medium-hard)

Seth was a nonissue the first time around, it took me 26 continues to beat Sagat though. I don't know why. I do know that I'm out of practice though.

Having unlocked Sakura (to get to Dan), I find myself infatuated with the way the Sakura plays in IV, so she may end up being my main. I really like her flow in combat despite that fact she looks like a mix between Chun-Li and someone ugly.

Edit: Anyone want to mix it up on the PS3 version today/this weekend/whenever? I'm gonna suck for a while, so get your kicks in now.

No, I want you to explain why you think it is better. I don't have to play KOF 98 or 2002, I have them sitting in my 4 slot neo cab at my house. I know exactly how they play.  I want to know why YOU think grapplers are better in KOF than they are in SF. Aside from comboed throws and hybrid rushdown/throw characters and constant run->short jump->CD mix ups.

Okay....Go.

I'd love to try this game out.  I just don't feel like spending money on a game+stick + reupping my Live sub.

Looks fun though.

:oh_i_see:

Well... Ralf and Clark are the epitome of character design, for one.
For two, you can't grapple people as soon as they get up.
For three, when one character out of 12 grapplers/hybrids is simply retarded (HI DAIMON), that's excusable. Not so much when you only have 3 grapplers, and one of them is a hybrid.
For four, blockable long range grapples.
For five, Vice.

You also forgot the guard break throws. Needs moar Shingo dp+kick pish pash dokan, motherfucker.

But hey, I'm all up for a debate about taste. It will most certainly end well.

I am a fucking punching bag online. This is what I get for refusing to play Ryu or Ken.

OK. Seriously, they need a no shoto mode.

If they did that, then they also need a no 3rd party controller/joystick mode.  Shoto is about the only thing playable without a fight stick.

I don't normally get into this argument, suffice it to say, that's bullshit. That's pretty much all it comes down to. Every single character is relatively easy with a dpad. This is SF, not Guilty Gear. Now, will the person with the stick be better? Probably. But that's neither here nor there.

I don't want no shoto because I'm getting beaten mind you, I want it because I've been playing as Ryu for what, nearly 2 decades? When did SF2 come out in the arcades in the US? Even I'm willing to play something new. It just seems the rest of the world isn't. The stat ticker fo rthe PS3 said something like 48.2% or someshit played as Ryu. The remaining spots going to Sagat, Ken, with C Viper as the breakout of the new crew.

I mean, really. Sagat, Ken, and Ryu? After waiting this long, this is what people want to play? I'm sure Akuma would be up there if unlocking him wasn't such a monstrous pain in the ass.

In other words, sometimes I'm in the mood for shoto, but with SFIV having just come out, I'm simply not, I'm also not 13 years old anymore.

On that note, having unlocked Cammy, I really like her battle flow now, so I may be playing her a good deal. I like how they mixed up Sakura but I'm just not feeling it having trudged through arcade mode without thinking to knock the battles down to 1 win per game and putting it on easiest for unlocks. Yes, I beat them all on normal with the given characters and 3 matches until the last of the normal unlocks because I totally forgot to change it every time. >_<. Duuuur. Am retard.

Or it's not bullshit, and my experience (and that of some other people I've talked to) is different than yours.

Any character who has moves that involve charging (Chun-Li, E. Honda, Blanka, Guile, Vega, Balrog, M. Bison, etc...) I can't do reliably enough to be remotely viable in online play.  Not really liking Crimson Viper, Rufus, or El Fuerte.  Aside from the Shotos, I can play Fei Long, Zangief, and Abel somewhat reliably.  Probably Dhalsim also, but I've never really liked him.

This isn't even about taste, and the idea that ralph and clark are the "epitome" of character design is laughable at best. High level 2k2 looks like a dash short jump +cd fest into random forward+b->backdrop. Get the fuck out of here with that shit. With the exception of 98, 2k2 and to some slight degree 11, grapplers are pretty similar in KOF. Yes it is done differently than SF but there are lots of similarities. 

"for two", cut your "can't grapple on wake up BS." You can't do that on SF either. There is  window in both games in which you are unable to be grabbed. IN Sf this wake up window is invincible until you go into neutral, as which point you can do whatever you want. Based on which SF you are playing, you just need to be entering a command that is executing faster than a grapple. If we are talking ST here, then you are full of shit cause throws have 0 frame start up, so the person getting up can throw on wake up, losing only to DP's or jumping moves etc.

"for three" having a large ensemble of hybrid throw characters is silly. It means you can't  balance an actual throw character correctly, so you give a bunch of characters hit throws and call it a day. You are only comboing throws in theory. They are just hit throws. They are not by any means actual well designed throw characters. These hybrid characters are why KOF is so damn homoginized in its gameplay. It is constant rushdown, and anti air normals are really non-existent in mid to high level play. That is only forgivable because the games are still fun, but a lot character specific individuality based on playstyle rather than aesthetics is lost because of it. Also Daimon is not retarded as he is either mid to high tier in most the games he is in and he is one of there better designed throw style characters.
 
"for four" sean, fuerte have blockable dash throws. They are called hit throws and they are not cool. Once something becomes a hit throw, it ceases to be throw and becomes a normal special with attack specific hit/recoil animations. It is no longer a throw. Throws need to beat blocking. that is the formula. on that end, gief, mika,hugo, alex, abel, fuerte, all do it "right". 

"for five" vice, what about her? long range level specific hit throws. Toss whip in there too. Also, Rolento says hi.

 Last guard break to throws throws? That is retarded in concept. Again, throws should beat blocks. Why would I guard break then throw when I could just throw, dash in and start the mix up, or ideally guard break, combo and end with a special or super that knocks down, dash in for wake up shinanigans. really your logic here is failing. Guard break throw is dumb as a concept and proof positive of stupidity in practice.

But anyway, I love KOF.  :awesome_for_real:

No shit. You're a bright one, aren't you?

Holy carp - this game rocks my socks.

Been playing as Ken - I really don't think he's as overused as people say, considering his relative popularity and the age of the franchise. He does have his limitations - I find that Cammy is good at exploiting them. Also his ultra and super (especially the ultra) are pretty hard to set up and use effectively.

That said, pretty much every Ken and Akuma player I come up against is an easy win. The Akuma victories taste the sweetest though - I can just imagine the poor guy on the other side saying "...but I can throw fireballs in the air. FIREBALLS! IN THE AIR!!!!!"

Agree about Zangief - he's a beast, and when he's closing in on you it really does make you nervous. Actually, I think grapplers in general are pretty damn good in SFIV. I have trouble with some Honda players. I've seen Abel used to good effect. Just about the only one not worth a damn is El Fuerte, and even he has a couple of frustrating tricks.

I was tooling around with El Fuerte the other night, I imagine in the right hands he would be a devastating monster. The game simply hasn't been out long enough to abuse that.

Nice response, keep em' coming brainiac.  :drill:

Schild: Fuerte is a beast in the right hands. It is all about getting the knockdowns and miixing up between the dash sweep/body press. backwards dash to splash is super good against wake up srk's if you get them late, and backwards run to tortilla throw is great if you spook them into doing nothing. The body splash goes through fireballs and you can combo the super after the dash->sobat. You can also combo the super after the toward+ forward(medium kick) which is awesome cause it is fast as hell and hits overhead. I have seen a lot of videos where players dash->cancel->toward+forward to throw out the random overhead that has real fast recovery.

Fuerte takes a lot of practice and he is really input heavy, but he is fun.

Pro Tip: If you want to make someone disconnect, beat them with Dan.

Also, I would pay $50 on the playstation store for a "Never Play This Damn Song Again" option.

IN-DE-STRUCTIBLE

I'd mute the music, but there are other songs that the game plays (only when the planets are aligned) that sound pretty good.

Yeah the music is really hit and miss. I don't like the intro song at all but I find myself humming/whistling it a lot. Every time a a new SF game/capcom vs game comes out I like to go back and listen to older OST's and compare them. I am a fan of a lot of OST's that didn't sit well with fans, namely the 3rd strike/MVC2 and CVS2 soundtracks. There is something about soulful dance/house music as a soundtrack to fighting that sits well with me for some weird reason. I also love music that changes based on stuff, old school ST style, music speeds up when you are in danger of losing the match, or how the music changes in the arrange mode of 3rd strike. (every round even!) and when you get ultra in SF4.

The BG are another part of SF4 that I can't get into. I was hoping that SF would be bigger, like big awesome looking backgrounds that look like I am in a big tournament. KOF always did a good job of this

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=149804
(while you are there, check out the super sexy sprite work too  :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart:)

CVS 2 had more of those "big tournament settings" backgrounds too. I was hoping for more of that in SF4, but if not that, at the very least a BG for every character so you would have that "fighting all over the world" feeling you have in older SF. I also like the character specific levels because it has that home turf advantage feeling when you have the stages set to random, plus you can have the music stylized to whatever country you are in. neat-o.

That being said, I was talking to a pal the other day while we were playing and going over the extra music that is in SF4 that you only hear during rival fights in single player mode. there is really no option to hear it in the game other than playing the single player mode or sitting around in the online lobbys. I was thinking that Capcom should just remake every characters original BG in 3d and have a download pack for them and use their music from the SF4 rivals stages. they can call it home turf pack of some silliness. I would buy the crap out of it.

That was the kindest way I could find to point out that this topic is so sensitive to you that you're unable to correctly understand blatant sarcasm, even when presented in the very first sentence.

You are not apt to discuss this.

But I sure do love playing rolento and r. mika in SF4, they're, like, awesome.

I rented it for shits and giggles, and it's quite good.  Not $60 good, for me, anyway, but still good.

I realized that I really can't play Chun Li anymore.  With Ken I can get off the fireball and spin kick consistently, but if I get off a dragon punch it's through sheer luck.  Of course, the XBox gamepad doesn't help, because I refuse to use the d-pad and get the corresponding sore thumb.  Still, I find getting off rotational moves like the fireball easier to do than the back/forward stuff like Honda's torpedo or Blanka's ball.  I can forget about Vega, I have a really hard time getting his wall bouncing off with the gamepad.

Yeah, the charge moves can be tough on the pad, they are a bit easier to do on the analog stick but that still feels weird. If you ended up getting into it, you could always try the fight pad. they are relatively inexpensive and they play great for a pad.


You really didn't sound sarcastic and I actually wanted to know what you thought you were serious about "learning about grappling characters from SNK" . It is not too sensitive of an issue to talk about as it is just fighting games. Also I really don't see how any of the throw characters in 4 are really bad as none of them are ranked low and all are pretty fun to play. Also bringing up Rolento and R.Mika is perfectly acceptable as you brought up vice and clark and ralph and shingo... :uhrr:

Anyway, sarcasm is green.

Hasn't been for about 4-5 months I think.

Are you really gonna try to sustain that someone saying that ralf and clark are the epitome of character design doesn't sound sarcastic?
No one talked about the throw characters in SF4 being bad. It was the exact opposite.
I was talking about kof98-2k2 compared to SF4, something that was clearly labeled from the start. No one said a single word about Zero (which, btw, is trash). Not acceptable, especially since SF4 isn't even made by capcom (which is why it's so damn good), whereas Zero was.

Charging is still a bit iffy with the fight pad, at least for me; manage to miss things like Bison and Li's super/ultras quite often, even with it :(  Other than that, I love it so far.

Here's who I've fought tonight:
Ken
Ryu
Akuma
Sagat
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ryu
Ryu
Cammy (I think it was an accident, time ran out)
Vega
Chun Li

It's just not going worth the shoto to get lucky on a few matches.

Hammer, if you have time tomorrow night you need to school me.

So far, the online fucking sucks.  Mute players who just beat me like a rented mule has been my experience, even when I set up the game for "same skill".  I'll have maybe like 1 in 10 matches where it's even competitive.  It also sucks that the arcade atmosphere has been destroyed.  When you're playing someone right next to you and you can obviously destroy them at will it's usually good form to take a dive on the middle match and maybe teach the other guy something.  Not on XBL, apparently.  It's not been what I would call a good time.

I will play for sure, just send me an invite when you see me. Have you chosen who you will be learning/using?

Out of curiousity, are you playing ranked matches?

Probably Honda.  I have a soft spot for the fat man.

Yes. Why bother playing anything else unless it's with friends?

I don't get it, where are all the dumb noobs and little kids? I haven't played a console fighter online since the SNES, but back then it was easy for anyone who wasn't retarded to maintain a winning record.

They got older.

Honestly, I'd be doing much better if the Fighting Stick 3 had an octagonal gate instead of a square one. My only other option is the Dpad. Both are fine against the computer, but they suck balls in versus. I don't have problems pulling stuff off, I have a problem with being quick about it. /shrug

and yea, they got older.

Edit: It's funny, the only stick I have with a square gate is the fucking PS3 fighting stick which came out for VF5. I don't even know why that was an acceptable design choice. >_<

I haven't checked, but it seems to me people would be a lot more likely to try out characters they aren't as comfortable with when they aren't playing ranked matches.

I play the player matches (non-ranked) so I can play as Dan, and do nothing but dash away from my opponent and use the taunt that makes him shake his ass. And then I destroy them.

I've fought a lot of Ken's as well, but I've come across a fair number of really good players who use others.

I've seen a bunch of good Dhalsim's, to the point where I started to think that he might be a lot more powerful than he seems at first glance.  I'm also finding a bunch of good Bison's and Balrog's.

But yeah, I would say that 80% or so of the fights I have are against Ken's/Akuma's.

I call shenanigans HammerFrenzy, you actually know how to like do moves and stuff.

That's actually the first time I've played outside of unlocking characters / colors /etc. Could you tell?  :awesome_for_real:

Margalis: Jajaja! Man I had so much fun. Believe it or not, that is most likely the best connection I have had with an opponent in a long while, I was actually landing combos. Man I am so happy you are using Rufus. Fat boy needs some love too. Yeah, I could tell you had not been playing much. It is so different from other SF games but I am really enjoying it. To be honest, you were pretty damn mean with that Gief. You were 360'ing my lame ass between missed links Jajaja!
:ye_gods: *spin-spin-spin*  :uhrr:

We should really try to play more, I really enjoyed it. How is my Fuerte coming along? Ja ja, man Ooki cries every time I smack him around with El Fuerte. I am really digging him.

Anyway, we'll play again soon, and also get some more HDR in as well, cause we were having some fun matches in that as well. Keep up the Rufus love!

PS: Dhalsim is a sneaky jerk.

PPS: "From this day forward, you and I are AMIGOS!" -El Fuerte

Rufus is a scrub.

Like Dhalsim.

What was that? I couldn't hear you over Fuerte's victory screams.

 I :heartbreak: El Fuerte.  Zippy little bastard just shits up my day.  Same with Abel.  I'm no master by any stretch, but I take issue with his tossing me around so much.  Which is probably my only real complaint about the game.  Getting hit out of moves so much.

I hate everything about him. I hate his character concept, I hate his moveset. He's just dumb.

I have a lot of vague anger as well.

You're all closet minutemen. Fuerte's awesome.

Fuerte is all about the mix-ups man. He is way fun to play. It just sucks that he is really input heavy. You really have to work for your wins though cause he has more than a few bad match ups and the run-stop-fierce loop is fucking hard as hell to do with any consistency. I usually stick to shorter combos ending with the quesadilla bomb, or the guacamole leg throw. I sometimes end with the dash->sobat->super. Man he is a fun character.

Post vid please.  That sounds awesome.

Room-mate just got this for our ps3, been breaking myself in so i thought i would read over this thread.

I now have 2 questions:

A: Can someone explain this term "shoto" that you people keep using?

B: How in holy hell are you supposed to do Chun-li's (or any character with similar charge shit) super / ultra moves?  I took one look at the diagram in the manual that explains how you do her ultra / super and just went  :uhrr:

Shotokan. As in, Ryu, Sagat, Dan, Akuma, Ken. D, DF, F +P, etc.


Charge <-, ->, <-, -> +K & Charge <-, ->, <-, -> SK+MK+LK, I assume?

What do you mean how do you do it? I don't know how to ask it without just drawing it and sort of staring at the screen hoping for an answer.

so it is

Charge <-
->
<-
-> + Kick?

The diagram in the manual seemed to indicate you had to
Charge <-
Charge ->
<-
-> +kick

either way, i tried for like half an hour in the test room and couldnt seem to pull it off.  (ps3 standard controller)

The first one. Charge back about 2 seconds and then fire off the f, b, f quickly hitting kick the same time as forward. Once you do it once you'll be like "ooooooh."

This game is not button masher friendly though if that's a problem.

I'd like to know what all of you think the best characters are if you don't have a stick.  Basically, which ones will you be able to play pretty well even with a standard ps3 controller?

TIA

Guile, Blanka, Chun Li and Honda. I just find charging moves easier to perform without a stick. Even easier if you use your index and middle finger.

My biggest complaint is how they put in the shortcuts for DP moves.  So if you double tap downforward twice and then hit punch, you will throw out a DP even if that was not your intent.

As a Sakura player, I can't count the number of times I've accidentally tossed out an Otoshi while trying to chain Tatsu's with crouch kicks.

Wow that is weird. I can't get an srk(DP) to come out like that at all....

oooof, that was fun. Good games last night Margalis. That Zangief is coming along nicely. I really want to work on my Guile. I started playing him yesterday and am digging some of his silliness.

The last time I played was the last time we played...this game just feels so weird to me. Half the time I try to do an air fireball with Akuma I end up doing a ground fireball because I didn't even leave the ground by the time I finished the fireball motion.

The timing of jumps and attacks in this game is much closer to the 3 series than 2, and I never really got into 3 at all. I'll get used to it eventually but right now my brain just doesn't comprehend it.

This is Jorge (Hammer Frenzy at Ooki's house!  :awesome_for_real:) Yeah the timing on everything is kinda weird. The game is flat out slow until you get the hang of it at which point is is just  a little sluggish. I like it, but it is really hard to get used to, especially after playing HD Remix for the past few months.

I agree on the sluggish feel; the SF I played the most was Alpha 3, and I always played it with the speed turned all the way up.

(http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1659/kenflow.jpg)

hahahaha

Been playing since release and doing online matches I am really tired of those Kens. Once in a while you meet a Ruy, Sagat or Zangief, but I found the way to win most of my online matches and defeat Ken though. Play as Ken   :awesome_for_real:

Bah, Ken isn't anything special in SFIV.

Stay with your favorite character, spend some time in training mode perfecting your most damaging combo, and then bait Ken into throwing his flaming SRK, and punish. Punish them over and over again, and wonder why it is they don't try something else.

Now Sagat - Sagat is the one to fear.

Generally, I get the same characters over and over again in online matches:  Ken/Akuma/Sagat (in that order)

I myself generally play Abel/Ryu/Sagat depending on who I'm playing against.  (I pull out the Sagat against Vega/Bison)

I fear the Gief like none other.  High priority on zero-range supers/ultra, high damage, invincible lariat.  The only other vicious thing I've really run into was a single Dhalsim.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=181248


If this is true I'd be super down to go, except I am seeing The Killers in San Jose that day.

Here are my top3 reasons why I hate SFIV:

1.  Sagat's fake kick is so difficult to input that I can't clear his first move challenge mode. -- This is still really shitty, haven't tried it today but wtfux at it even being hard in the first place.
2.  The ps3 sticks are so sensitive that I can't do an ultra/super motion reliably.  -- I really feel like I have to use the dpad, but I dont like to use the dpad, but after using the stick for two days now I love the dpad today.  >< fucking game.
3.  Akuma's ultra input is hard, makes it hard to get the last two character unlocks.  -- this was really easy actually once I wasn't already annoyed with the game when I tried it.

Basically I'm not good at it and it pisses me the fuck off.  I wish I could blame it all on not having an additional $XXX piece of equipment but I've got a feeling that isn't the entire problem.


edited:
Ok so now I can get to the L4 easy challenges, after being confused by EX cancel until I finally found the answer online.  The L4 challenges are pretty crazy, I think I'll unlock the last two characters first.

The PS3 d-pad isn't shit like the 360's - use that instead.

If anyone wants to see insanely high level play (like right now) its so crazy that even though I'm terrible and not a part of the scene its very fun to watch.

http://evo2k.com/live/

SF4 top 8 matches going on right now (9pm PST).