Street Fighter IV

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Try to grapple someone just as they get up. (kof98-2k2)

No, I want you to explain why you think it is better. I don't have to play KOF 98 or 2002, I have them sitting in my 4 slot neo cab at my house. I know exactly how they play.  I want to know why YOU think grapplers are better in KOF than they are in SF. Aside from comboed throws and hybrid rushdown/throw characters and constant run->short jump->CD mix ups.

Okay....Go.

[Draegan]

I'd love to try this game out.  I just don't feel like spending money on a game+stick + reupping my Live sub.

Looks fun though.

[Hindenburg]

Aside from comboed throws and hybrid rushdown/throw characters and constant run->short jump->CD mix ups.

Well... Ralf and Clark are the epitome of character design, for one.
For two, you can't grapple people as soon as they get up.
For three, when one character out of 12 grapplers/hybrids is simply retarded (HI DAIMON), that's excusable. Not so much when you only have 3 grapplers, and one of them is a hybrid.
For four, blockable long range grapples.
For five, Vice.

You also forgot the guard break throws. Needs moar Shingo dp+kick pish pash dokan, motherfucker.

But hey, I'm all up for a debate about taste. It will most certainly end well.

[schild]

I am a fucking punching bag online. This is what I get for refusing to play Ryu or Ken.

[schild]

OK. Seriously, they need a no shoto mode.

[Velorath]

OK. Seriously, they need a no shoto mode.

If they did that, then they also need a no 3rd party controller/joystick mode.  Shoto is about the only thing playable without a fight stick.

[schild]

OK. Seriously, they need a no shoto mode.

If they did that, then they also need a no 3rd party controller/joystick mode.  Shoto is about the only thing playable without a fight stick.

I don't normally get into this argument, suffice it to say, that's bullshit. That's pretty much all it comes down to. Every single character is relatively easy with a dpad. This is SF, not Guilty Gear. Now, will the person with the stick be better? Probably. But that's neither here nor there.

I don't want no shoto because I'm getting beaten mind you, I want it because I've been playing as Ryu for what, nearly 2 decades? When did SF2 come out in the arcades in the US? Even I'm willing to play something new. It just seems the rest of the world isn't. The stat ticker fo rthe PS3 said something like 48.2% or someshit played as Ryu. The remaining spots going to Sagat, Ken, with C Viper as the breakout of the new crew.

I mean, really. Sagat, Ken, and Ryu? After waiting this long, this is what people want to play? I'm sure Akuma would be up there if unlocking him wasn't such a monstrous pain in the ass.

In other words, sometimes I'm in the mood for shoto, but with SFIV having just come out, I'm simply not, I'm also not 13 years old anymore.

[schild]

On that note, having unlocked Cammy, I really like her battle flow now, so I may be playing her a good deal. I like how they mixed up Sakura but I'm just not feeling it having trudged through arcade mode without thinking to knock the battles down to 1 win per game and putting it on easiest for unlocks. Yes, I beat them all on normal with the given characters and 3 matches until the last of the normal unlocks because I totally forgot to change it every time. >_<. Duuuur. Am retard.

[Velorath]

OK. Seriously, they need a no shoto mode.

If they did that, then they also need a no 3rd party controller/joystick mode.  Shoto is about the only thing playable without a fight stick.

I don't normally get into this argument, suffice it to say, that's bullshit.

Or it's not bullshit, and my experience (and that of some other people I've talked to) is different than yours.

Any character who has moves that involve charging (Chun-Li, E. Honda, Blanka, Guile, Vega, Balrog, M. Bison, etc...) I can't do reliably enough to be remotely viable in online play.  Not really liking Crimson Viper, Rufus, or El Fuerte.  Aside from the Shotos, I can play Fei Long, Zangief, and Abel somewhat reliably.  Probably Dhalsim also, but I've never really liked him.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Aside from comboed throws and hybrid rushdown/throw characters and constant run->short jump->CD mix ups.

Well... Ralf and Clark are the epitome of character design, for one.
For two, you can't grapple people as soon as they get up.
For three, when one character out of 12 grapplers/hybrids is simply retarded (HI DAIMON), that's excusable. Not so much when you only have 3 grapplers, and one of them is a hybrid.
For four, blockable long range grapples.
For five, Vice.

You also forgot the guard break throws. Needs moar Shingo dp+kick pish pash dokan, motherfucker.

But hey, I'm all up for a debate about taste. It will most certainly end well.

This isn't even about taste, and the idea that ralph and clark are the "epitome" of character design is laughable at best. High level 2k2 looks like a dash short jump +cd fest into random forward+b->backdrop. Get the fuck out of here with that shit. With the exception of 98, 2k2 and to some slight degree 11, grapplers are pretty similar in KOF. Yes it is done differently than SF but there are lots of similarities. 

"for two", cut your "can't grapple on wake up BS." You can't do that on SF either. There is  window in both games in which you are unable to be grabbed. IN Sf this wake up window is invincible until you go into neutral, as which point you can do whatever you want. Based on which SF you are playing, you just need to be entering a command that is executing faster than a grapple. If we are talking ST here, then you are full of shit cause throws have 0 frame start up, so the person getting up can throw on wake up, losing only to DP's or jumping moves etc.

"for three" having a large ensemble of hybrid throw characters is silly. It means you can't  balance an actual throw character correctly, so you give a bunch of characters hit throws and call it a day. You are only comboing throws in theory. They are just hit throws. They are not by any means actual well designed throw characters. These hybrid characters are why KOF is so damn homoginized in its gameplay. It is constant rushdown, and anti air normals are really non-existent in mid to high level play. That is only forgivable because the games are still fun, but a lot character specific individuality based on playstyle rather than aesthetics is lost because of it. Also Daimon is not retarded as he is either mid to high tier in most the games he is in and he is one of there better designed throw style characters.
 
"for four" sean, fuerte have blockable dash throws. They are called hit throws and they are not cool. Once something becomes a hit throw, it ceases to be throw and becomes a normal special with attack specific hit/recoil animations. It is no longer a throw. Throws need to beat blocking. that is the formula. on that end, gief, mika,hugo, alex, abel, fuerte, all do it "right". 

"for five" vice, what about her? long range level specific hit throws. Toss whip in there too. Also, Rolento says hi.

 Last guard break to throws throws? That is retarded in concept. Again, throws should beat blocks. Why would I guard break then throw when I could just throw, dash in and start the mix up, or ideally guard break, combo and end with a special or super that knocks down, dash in for wake up shinanigans. really your logic here is failing. Guard break throw is dumb as a concept and proof positive of stupidity in practice.

But anyway, I love KOF. 

[Hindenburg]

the idea that ralph and clark are the "epitome" of character design is laughable at best.

No shit. You're a bright one, aren't you?

[Dtrain]

Holy carp - this game rocks my socks.

Been playing as Ken - I really don't think he's as overused as people say, considering his relative popularity and the age of the franchise. He does have his limitations - I find that Cammy is good at exploiting them. Also his ultra and super (especially the ultra) are pretty hard to set up and use effectively.

That said, pretty much every Ken and Akuma player I come up against is an easy win. The Akuma victories taste the sweetest though - I can just imagine the poor guy on the other side saying "...but I can throw fireballs in the air. FIREBALLS! IN THE AIR!!!!!"

Agree about Zangief - he's a beast, and when he's closing in on you it really does make you nervous. Actually, I think grapplers in general are pretty damn good in SFIV. I have trouble with some Honda players. I've seen Abel used to good effect. Just about the only one not worth a damn is El Fuerte, and even he has a couple of frustrating tricks.

[schild]

I was tooling around with El Fuerte the other night, I imagine in the right hands he would be a devastating monster. The game simply hasn't been out long enough to abuse that.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

the idea that ralph and clark are the "epitome" of character design is laughable at best.

No shit. You're a bright one, aren't you?

Nice response, keep em' coming brainiac. 

Schild: Fuerte is a beast in the right hands. It is all about getting the knockdowns and miixing up between the dash sweep/body press. backwards dash to splash is super good against wake up srk's if you get them late, and backwards run to tortilla throw is great if you spook them into doing nothing. The body splash goes through fireballs and you can combo the super after the dash->sobat. You can also combo the super after the toward+ forward(medium kick) which is awesome cause it is fast as hell and hits overhead. I have seen a lot of videos where players dash->cancel->toward+forward to throw out the random overhead that has real fast recovery.

Fuerte takes a lot of practice and he is really input heavy, but he is fun.

[Dtrain]

Pro Tip: If you want to make someone disconnect, beat them with Dan.

[Dtrain]

Also, I would pay $50 on the playstation store for a "Never Play This Damn Song Again" option.

IN-DE-STRUCTIBLE

I'd mute the music, but there are other songs that the game plays (only when the planets are aligned) that sound pretty good.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Yeah the music is really hit and miss. I don't like the intro song at all but I find myself humming/whistling it a lot. Every time a a new SF game/capcom vs game comes out I like to go back and listen to older OST's and compare them. I am a fan of a lot of OST's that didn't sit well with fans, namely the 3rd strike/MVC2 and CVS2 soundtracks. There is something about soulful dance/house music as a soundtrack to fighting that sits well with me for some weird reason. I also love music that changes based on stuff, old school ST style, music speeds up when you are in danger of losing the match, or how the music changes in the arrange mode of 3rd strike. (every round even!) and when you get ultra in SF4.

The BG are another part of SF4 that I can't get into. I was hoping that SF would be bigger, like big awesome looking backgrounds that look like I am in a big tournament. KOF always did a good job of this

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=149804
(while you are there, check out the super sexy sprite work too  )

CVS 2 had more of those "big tournament settings" backgrounds too. I was hoping for more of that in SF4, but if not that, at the very least a BG for every character so you would have that "fighting all over the world" feeling you have in older SF. I also like the character specific levels because it has that home turf advantage feeling when you have the stages set to random, plus you can have the music stylized to whatever country you are in. neat-o.

That being said, I was talking to a pal the other day while we were playing and going over the extra music that is in SF4 that you only hear during rival fights in single player mode. there is really no option to hear it in the game other than playing the single player mode or sitting around in the online lobbys. I was thinking that Capcom should just remake every characters original BG in 3d and have a download pack for them and use their music from the SF4 rivals stages. they can call it home turf pack of some silliness. I would buy the crap out of it.

[Hindenburg]

Nice response, keep em' coming brainiac. 

That was the kindest way I could find to point out that this topic is so sensitive to you that you're unable to correctly understand blatant sarcasm, even when presented in the very first sentence.

You are not apt to discuss this.

But I sure do love playing rolento and r. mika in SF4, they're, like, awesome.

[Big Gulp]

I rented it for shits and giggles, and it's quite good.  Not $60 good, for me, anyway, but still good.

I realized that I really can't play Chun Li anymore.  With Ken I can get off the fireball and spin kick consistently, but if I get off a dragon punch it's through sheer luck.  Of course, the XBox gamepad doesn't help, because I refuse to use the d-pad and get the corresponding sore thumb.  Still, I find getting off rotational moves like the fireball easier to do than the back/forward stuff like Honda's torpedo or Blanka's ball.  I can forget about Vega, I have a really hard time getting his wall bouncing off with the gamepad.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

I rented it for shits and giggles, and it's quite good.  Not $60 good, for me, anyway, but still good.

I realized that I really can't play Chun Li anymore.  With Ken I can get off the fireball and spin kick consistently, but if I get off a dragon punch it's through sheer luck.  Of course, the XBox gamepad doesn't help, because I refuse to use the d-pad and get the corresponding sore thumb.  Still, I find getting off rotational moves like the fireball easier to do than the back/forward stuff like Honda's torpedo or Blanka's ball.  I can forget about Vega, I have a really hard time getting his wall bouncing off with the gamepad.

Yeah, the charge moves can be tough on the pad, they are a bit easier to do on the analog stick but that still feels weird. If you ended up getting into it, you could always try the fight pad. they are relatively inexpensive and they play great for a pad.

Nice response, keep em' coming brainiac. 

That was the kindest way I could find to point out that this topic is so sensitive to you that you're unable to correctly understand blatant sarcasm, even when presented in the very first sentence.

You are not apt to discuss this.

But I sure do love playing rolento and r. mika in SF4, they're, like, awesome.

You really didn't sound sarcastic and I actually wanted to know what you thought you were serious about "learning about grappling characters from SNK" . It is not too sensitive of an issue to talk about as it is just fighting games. Also I really don't see how any of the throw characters in 4 are really bad as none of them are ranked low and all are pretty fun to play. Also bringing up Rolento and R.Mika is perfectly acceptable as you brought up vice and clark and ralph and shingo...

Anyway, sarcasm is green.

[schild]

Anyway, sarcasm is green.

Hasn't been for about 4-5 months I think.

[Hindenburg]

Also I really don't see how any of the throw characters in 4 are really bad as none of them are ranked low and all are pretty fun to play. Also bringing up Rolento and R.Mika is perfectly acceptable as you brought up vice and clark and ralph and shingo...

Are you really gonna try to sustain that someone saying that ralf and clark are the epitome of character design doesn't sound sarcastic?
No one talked about the throw characters in SF4 being bad. It was the exact opposite.
I was talking about kof98-2k2 compared to SF4, something that was clearly labeled from the start. No one said a single word about Zero (which, btw, is trash). Not acceptable, especially since SF4 isn't even made by capcom (which is why it's so damn good), whereas Zero was.

[Cylus]

Yeah, the charge moves can be tough on the pad, they are a bit easier to do on the analog stick but that still feels weird. If you ended up getting into it, you could always try the fight pad. they are relatively inexpensive and they play great for a pad.

Charging is still a bit iffy with the fight pad, at least for me; manage to miss things like Bison and Li's super/ultras quite often, even with it :(  Other than that, I love it so far.

[schild]

Here's who I've fought tonight:
Ken
Ryu
Akuma
Sagat
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ryu
Ryu
Cammy (I think it was an accident, time ran out)
Vega
Chun Li

It's just not going worth the shoto to get lucky on a few matches.

[Big Gulp]

Hammer, if you have time tomorrow night you need to school me.

So far, the online fucking sucks.  Mute players who just beat me like a rented mule has been my experience, even when I set up the game for "same skill".  I'll have maybe like 1 in 10 matches where it's even competitive.  It also sucks that the arcade atmosphere has been destroyed.  When you're playing someone right next to you and you can obviously destroy them at will it's usually good form to take a dive on the middle match and maybe teach the other guy something.  Not on XBL, apparently.  It's not been what I would call a good time.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Hammer, if you have time tomorrow night you need to school me.

So far, the online fucking sucks.  Mute players who just beat me like a rented mule has been my experience, even when I set up the game for "same skill".  I'll have maybe like 1 in 10 matches where it's even competitive.  It also sucks that the arcade atmosphere has been destroyed.  When you're playing someone right next to you and you can obviously destroy them at will it's usually good form to take a dive on the middle match and maybe teach the other guy something.  Not on XBL, apparently.  It's not been what I would call a good time.

I will play for sure, just send me an invite when you see me. Have you chosen who you will be learning/using?

[Velorath]

Here's who I've fought tonight:
Ken
Ryu
Akuma
Sagat
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ryu
Ryu
Cammy (I think it was an accident, time ran out)
Vega
Chun Li

It's just not going worth the shoto to get lucky on a few matches.

Out of curiousity, are you playing ranked matches?

[Big Gulp]

Have you chosen who you will be learning/using?

Probably Honda.  I have a soft spot for the fat man.

[schild]

Here's who I've fought tonight:
Ken
Ryu
Akuma
Sagat
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ryu
Ryu
Cammy (I think it was an accident, time ran out)
Vega
Chun Li

It's just not going worth the shoto to get lucky on a few matches.

Out of curiousity, are you playing ranked matches?

Yes. Why bother playing anything else unless it's with friends?

[WindupAtheist]

I don't get it, where are all the dumb noobs and little kids? I haven't played a console fighter online since the SNES, but back then it was easy for anyone who wasn't retarded to maintain a winning record.

[Hindenburg]

I don't get it, where are all the dumb noobs and little kids?

They got older.

[schild]

I don't get it, where are all the dumb noobs and little kids? I haven't played a console fighter online since the SNES, but back then it was easy for anyone who wasn't retarded to maintain a winning record.

Honestly, I'd be doing much better if the Fighting Stick 3 had an octagonal gate instead of a square one. My only other option is the Dpad. Both are fine against the computer, but they suck balls in versus. I don't have problems pulling stuff off, I have a problem with being quick about it. /shrug

and yea, they got older.

Edit: It's funny, the only stick I have with a square gate is the fucking PS3 fighting stick which came out for VF5. I don't even know why that was an acceptable design choice. >_<

[Velorath]

Here's who I've fought tonight:
Ken
Ryu
Akuma
Sagat
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ryu
Ryu
Cammy (I think it was an accident, time ran out)
Vega
Chun Li

It's just not going worth the shoto to get lucky on a few matches.

Out of curiousity, are you playing ranked matches?

Yes. Why bother playing anything else unless it's with friends?

I haven't checked, but it seems to me people would be a lot more likely to try out characters they aren't as comfortable with when they aren't playing ranked matches.

[Dtrain]

Here's who I've fought tonight:
Ken
Ryu
Akuma
Sagat
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ken
Ryu
Ryu
Cammy (I think it was an accident, time ran out)
Vega
Chun Li

It's just not going worth the shoto to get lucky on a few matches.

Out of curiousity, are you playing ranked matches?

Yes. Why bother playing anything else unless it's with friends?

I haven't checked, but it seems to me people would be a lot more likely to try out characters they aren't as comfortable with when they aren't playing ranked matches.

I play the player matches (non-ranked) so I can play as Dan, and do nothing but dash away from my opponent and use the taunt that makes him shake his ass. And then I destroy them.

[Nhare]

I've fought a lot of Ken's as well, but I've come across a fair number of really good players who use others.

I've seen a bunch of good Dhalsim's, to the point where I started to think that he might be a lot more powerful than he seems at first glance.  I'm also finding a bunch of good Bison's and Balrog's.

But yeah, I would say that 80% or so of the fights I have are against Ken's/Akuma's.