Guitar thread

[Famine]

99% of players I've seen on a 7 string still haven't mastered a 6 string... same could be said for people playing 5 and 6 string basses.  Call me a purist, but I prefer music player with the classic rock instruments.  I hate synthesizers and drum machines too and don't even get me started on the overuse of vocal enhancers and harmonizers. 

Well, there is a lot of classic rock, hard rock, and metal out there. Can't hurt to think outside the box sometimes. You can do that playing the same old 6-string tech or you can maybe branch out and explore new sounds like the 7-string, 8-string, or even synths or drum machines.

I've seen very few local bands using 7-strings but the ones that did were pretty insane with their style. They played weird tunings and did crazy things with synths in their music and I couldn't really see this as a bad thing for trying to explore something different than what was already being mimiced 10 times over. :)

[Nebu]

Well, there is a lot of classic rock, hard rock, and metal out there. Can't hurt to think outside the box sometimes. You can do that playing the same old 6-string tech or you can maybe branch out and explore new sounds like the 7-string, 8-string, or even synths or drum machines.

I've seen very few local bands using 7-strings but the ones that did were pretty insane with their style. They played weird tunings and did crazy things with synths in their music and I couldn't really see this as a bad thing for trying to explore something different than what was already being mimiced 10 times over. :)

I'd argue that Les Claypool and Vic Wooten do a lot to demonstrate innovation without having to resort to more strings.  I guess it's just a taste thing.  I am a fan of Dream Theater which uses new tech to expand things, so I definately get where you're coming from. 

[Famine]

Speaking on 7-strings, I bought one awhile back that was merely because I never seen one from the brand. It was a 7-string Fender Bullet. It was a poorly made store brand guitar that I guess they made to see if anyone had interest in buying 7-strings at the time. I don't think they make 7-strings any more (going to google this) but it was sure funny to have a 7-string Fender that no one had seen before. I ended up giving it away because I struggle playing something so huge and so weird after playing 6-string for so long. :D

Edit: Totally wrong, it was a Squier Stratocaster VII (same company anyways). Don't know why I was thinking it was a bullet or a Fender. Memory starting to fade away.

[stray]

I thought the standard tuning for metal was standard Eb.  Van Halen, G&R, etc.  Thrash is what loves the drop D.

Depends on what you consider metal. Lot of kids today just consider metal tuning as D and C. Then you have the 7-String tunings like B and A. I've also seen some sick 8 string playing but no clue what tunings they are using. Mostly, there is a lot of blues/jazz being mixed up in todays metalcore/hardcore scenes that I've seen where people are going beyond dropped tuning to spice it up with some sick jazz or blues tunes.

Yeah I'd say it's rare to find metal players in Eb nowadays. ala Metallica type of metal (mostly Eb). Although there were times when Sabbath played in C# even (Children of the Grave, Supernaut), so it's nothing new. Eddie Van Halen actually played Drop D occasionally (Unchained). A lot of trend towards Drop D and Drop C I guess came from the Grunge and Groovemetal bands.. Then the baritones got popular and people were doing Drop B and A and shit with Nu-Metal. As an aside, I like baritones more than 7 strings myself.

Ack.. the history of Metal tunings.  

Anyhow, Crue might have been metal but really Mick Mars is a blues guitarist the more I listen. Reading up on him, I was surprised to see how old he was in comparison to the rest of the band (born in 1951). He's basically a 70's blues-rock guitarist in an 80's hair metal band. His tastes are different from other guitarists in similar bands. He just used these loud fucking amps that aren't common to blues rock.

[Famine]

Well that's the cycle of music really. Old School versus New School. It's the same with games now as old UO/EQ players versus WoW/LoTRO players (old playing styles versus new playing styles). You will see the common practices and influenced artist fade away from when you were young. What was considered standard for metal or rock then is not considered standard for today. You will start having lower tunings to bring more music out there that's even heavier than before and next (Numetal/Hardcore/Metalcore players for example) we'll see their influences/styles crushed by more electronic styles (synths etc) I think. 

/failing today

[stray]

I like it all.  Synths included. As long as the underlying song is good, of course. I play a lot of tunings.. although I sold my baritone. As for that (and to get off the subject of metal real quick), what's kind of interesting is a lot of country was playing that stuff before anyone else. Those real deep twangy lines are baritones.

The Cure was playing them too.. A lot of what sounds like bass lines is a bari. Although Lullaby is a baritone riff, a guitar, and a bassline backing it. Can't hate on that.

[Sky]

I thought the standard tuning for metal was standard Eb.  Van Halen, G&R, etc.  Thrash is what loves the drop D.

Pfft, thrash was around waaay before the drop-d thing. That was the big nu-metal thing. Maybe other bands have picked up on it, but it does fuck with the elegance of the guitar's tuning (CAGED).

Of course, being in a thrash metal band that started in 84, I am the authority  It was funny playing some metal back in 2001 and being considered 'old school' "Man, you're so /authentic/!" Heh. It was also just as lead playing got popular again, so a lot of cats were playing catch-up and the drop-d kids were hurting because they struggled with chords because they were lazing out with single-finger chords. At least locally, can't speak of national because it's not like I've been plugged into that scene for over a decade now...

Mick is a great guitarist, always has been. I thought it was pretty well known the way he fit into the band as an older, more technical musician lending some credibility to the young kids. But I don't knock Cure too much, I was a huge fan of their first two albums. The guitar tone on Too Young To Fall In Love is just sick, one of my favorite tunes of that era. Wish I had seen them then, I only saw them on the Theater of Pain tour (with Y&T). You know I'm a dreamer....

Going to buy a shure sm57 so I can mike vocals and guitar simultaneously and get back to recording some stuff. Initially just gauging where I am with my sing+play, since a couple years ago I couldn't do it at all and I've got a couple tunes pretty workable. It's really all about song choice, and finding artists who had the same challenges I do with coordinating two (or more) melodies. At this point I'm focusing on Otis Rush, Muddy, Buddy (and Junior), and Hendrix.

Fiancee has also requested more Alice in Chains, she didn't know I had spent time studying Layne and the other day I busted out Got Me Wrong. Was just messing around strumming barre chords and found that pattern, started singing over it, though I mess up the rhythm when I do, heh. After playing through a few other tunes, she said "Was that Alice?" She liked it, so it gets put on the practice list.

[Nebu]

Of course, being in a thrash metal band that started in 84...

Christ, you're almost as old as I am!  I was playing the bar scene in Mpls from 82 - 85.  I played in metal bands only to make money.  Funny that.  Cover bands are where the good money was.  I'd play in cover bands to make enough to pay for recording time in my originals bands.  Still, I was a bass player.  Proof that I don't know what the hell I'm talking about when it comes to guitar.  I've been dabbling with guitar for 20 years and I still consider myself a hack.  I don't know why, but I just never made the transition from 4 to 6 strings. 

[stray]

I've been playing guitar for almost 20 years too, and people just praise me when I pick up the bass. Makes me feel like beating their asses when they say that. Even the females.  It's not my instrument, even if it comes more easily. These people - friends included - are just ignorant. They don't recognize genius when they see it.

I guess that last line deserves another laugh emote: 


Umm.. But I do harbor some resentment there. I'm not the most orthodox player. Or listener for that matter. And they just don't know what the fuck is going with music. As much as I like some of the conventional kind of stuff people want to hear, I don't end up playing it. I end up doing something else.. mostly just musicians know I'm a better guitar player than a bass player. If that makes sense.

Basically, fuck the haters.

[Sky]

Well, yeah. Some people give a shit about the audience. I'm not really in that group, I've always been about enjoying what I'm doing and interacting with the others on stage. If you like it, great. If you don't, have another beer. I got a kick out of the kid who gave me a critique at that open mic, saying how I started off slow but really warmed up. The first song was great, I was in my comfort zone doing all kinds of cool minor jams, riffing off the harp player. The second song was just a bawdy crowd-pleaser where I got to bellow a bit, but the soloing was just a few riffs I stole from Muddy and Buddy.

So I stand behind my feeling that you just have to do what you enjoy and don't sweat what people say.

Just got in my amazon gift card (go go amazon visa rewards), so I got a book of country easy songs (chords+lyrics, fun for sitting out back goofing off), a book of Pink Floyd play-a-long (I'm addicted to that Hal Leonard series, it rocks for the most part) and a blues bass playalong. I'm thinking of upping my open mic stuff to double threat by getting some bass lines down. Then hopefully triple-threat once I get the basement finished up a bit and get my drums set up....they've also got drum playalongs! :)

[Selby]

So I stand behind my feeling that you just have to do what you enjoy and don't sweat what people say.

Yup.  I never would have actually learned to play "metal" songs from the 1970's and 1980's if I cared what others said.  Playing Hootie & the Blowfish and Bush was where the money and girls were at though!  And that's why I have a day job (in addition to being a shitty player ;-) ).  I sure enjoy my playing though and at the end of the day, that's what really matters.

[Sky]

I'll give you that Hootie may have been where the money was at, but the girls are everywhere :) We played underground, keg parties and whatnot, and never went wanting. In fact, I kinda liked the vibe of the word-of-mouth crowd rather than the pay-to-play crowd. A zen kinda thing.

Was hell on the lifestyle, since we didn't really have day jobs. But also pretty awesome, spending all day cliff diving and smoking weed, all night drinking and playing at parties (and making a party if there wasn't one to play at). My theme song used to be Long Haired Country Boy :)

[stray]

Speaking of slide tunings again, a low open Db is sick. :D This is a raunchy slide tuning, just right on a big overdrive and some echo. I'm just gonna keep my beater in this.

Well, I found that Mick is playing just a D-D a lot, standard.. not an open tuning.. Even when he slides. Might be cool to learn some Crue songs.

[Sky]

I've slacked off on slide playing because I don't like beating up the SG and the beater's pickups sound like garbage with a decent amp. But although I keep the beater in open G for early Muddy stuff (and some Zep, In My Time of Dying), I pretty much want to learn standard tuning slide, late-era Muddy and Warren Haynes. Just makes it more versatile imo.

[Selby]

Might be cool to learn some Crue songs.

I used to not think the same way, then I realized that a good song is a good song regardless of who does it, and if it's fun to play, that just makes it that much more enjoyable.  I've found all sorts of gems from various bands I never heard of or paid attention to, often on the album as opposed to the radio single that may (or may not) have gotten played to death.

I'll give you that Hootie may have been where the money was at, but the girls are everywhere :)

I can agree to a degree, but every metal show I ever went to in my home town consisted of a roomful of dirty guys and maybe the occasional girlfriend of someone in the place.  Out here in SoCal I went to a show with my Iron Maiden shirt on and I got more thumbs up and conversation started from girls than from guys.  A friend of mine plays in a country band back in the old town and I asked him "I thought you hated country, why do you do it?" and he said "Of course I hate country, but for $600/week the band will play it for a few hours on Fridays and Saturdays."  Kind of hard to argue with that, essentially $75 per night and free drinks at the local bars.  If you're into that, why not?

[Sky]

I think I may have found the solution to my old demo master tape dilemma: http://www.sonicraft.com/

That dude has a very nice setup, going to contact him once I jot down the info on the tape. But I'm pretty sure this picture has the exact kind of reel on it that I have:



Hopefully the old metal will ride again!

[Nebu]

I was a musician in the early 80's.  If noone ever heard my music again, it would be just fine with me.  Metal is a lot more timeless than the stuff I was writing.  I think I need to burn my old demo masters. 

Maybe I'll do that tonight.

[Selby]

I've got a reel to reel machine that was a professional quality rack-mount system in its day (my dad bought it in 1977 for $500 or so).  It looks almost identical to the ones you show.  It weighs almost 40lbs and has a sound like none other.

[stray]

Reel still is a great way to record. Tape is ridiculously expensive, that's the problem.

[Sky]

I think I need to burn my old demo masters. 

I'm expecting to get a good laugh out of it. It was a total rush job, done live in the studio.

I don't think they do any mixing, so it'll be a straight transfer of the 8 tracks, most likely. I'll have to finally get around to learning Audacity unless I sneak it into work to do it in Garageband.

Even though I haven't seen my old band in years, I plan on tracking them down so I can mail them copies of the masters and a mixdown. What a great opportunity this is, I had griped for years about not having a copy of our one studio gig, and now I hold the masters! I feel it's only right to get copies to the guys, no matter what water has passed under various bridges. I'll probably also give copies to a few old fans I still know in the area, their tapes are probably long gone or worn out by now.

[Nebu]

I think it sounds like a fun endeavor.  I wonder if you could ever remix those masters to something you like even more? 

My masters were the result of the demo that got us signed.  They were done over the course of 10 days in a Minneapolis studio and cost us a pretty penny to mix.  The sad truth is that they sound horribly dated (like a mix between the Cure and REM).  I listened to the mix on an old tape a few nights ago.  It made me laugh listening to just how high I used to be able to sing back then.  I can't even sqeak that high now. 

[Sky]

There's probably a ton of bleed, especially in the vocals. But yeah, I hope to mess around with the mix a bit. Could be fun, and maybe drop in a few new parts if I get creative.

[stray]

Up the guitar's mids!

Almost surely an 80's metal band had them scooped. 

Also, make the bass "existent".

[Sky]

My bass was more like 'HOLY FUCK IS THERE A FREIGHT TRAIN IN MY BRAIN'. Though this recording would be before I had dialed my tone in, indeed before I knew what the hell I was doing. Probably six months after I had begun playing bass, still using a pick for some stuff (though I never abandoned the pick for the really fast stuff, to keep definition).

I'm kind of scared to hear my bass parts, since the few tapes I have are from rehearsals where I had my tone dialed in and was up to speed with finger thumping. But moving from lead guitar to bass, yeah, I was all about being present in the mix as an equal player, used to play melodic figures and whatnot.

Our guitarist wasn't a scooper, we had a guy who sat in with us and did that, it always sounded odd.

[Righ]

I was a musician in the early 80's.  If noone ever heard my music again, it would be just fine with me.  Metal is a lot more timeless than the stuff I was writing.  I think I need to burn my old demo masters. 

I think that instead you should upload each of the individual tracks (guitar, vox, etc) and invite people to remix it. You'll get a contemporary sounding song out of it that way. I'll even do a version heavy with synth and drum machines just for you. 

[Miguel]

I think that instead you should upload each of the individual tracks (guitar, vox, etc) and invite people to remix it.

I was thinking the exact same thing!  Post up the raw tracks in PCM format, and let's see what kind of abomination we can put together.

[Raph]

Posted a new tune. Been a while. :)

http://www.raphkoster.com/music/IWillBeThereForYou.mp3

Yes, I know, the bass especially.

[Nebu]

I was thinking the exact same thing!  Post up the raw tracks in PCM format, and let's see what kind of abomination we can put together.

You guys and your fancy technology talk frightens and amazes me.  I fould some old reel master tapes and some cassette copies this weekend. 

Dated would be the nicest thing I could say about the music.  I swear the only reason we got signed was because we were popular in the Minneapolis market when some other, more talented bands, were also popular here. 

On a side not: interesting stuff Raph.  I really need to learn to record like that. 

[Sky]

Piano just classes up any tune imo, wish I could play.

[Raph]

Nebu, what are the aspects of recording you don't feel comfortable with? I am no expert, not by a loooooong stretch.

I have to admit, after the fourth take on recording the bass, I thought about just asking one of you guys to record the part. ;)

You guys always give me more comments/feedback on the recording than on the music. :)

Here's some stuff that I got asked on the blog about how I recorded it:

    What did you use to record?

I double-miked the acoustic guitar with an ATM41HE pointed at the 12th fret from around 4 inches away, and an AT4033a/SM around 18 inches away, both with pop filters on.

The vocals are on the ATM41HE. The “ooohs” in the backing on the bridge are run through a Digitech Vocalist Live 4 to get automatic harmonies.

From there it goes into a Tascam 4 track I use as a mixer, then into Acid Pro 7.

The clarinet and piano parts are played live on a Yamaha P70, with VSTs.

    Which axes did you use?

This is on the Blueridge. The bass is a Washburn.

    How many tracks?

Acoustic guitar: added a small bit of reverb.
Lead vocal. Close to dry.
Bass.
Backing vocal is a doubled stereo track panned hard left and hard right.
Piano.
Clarinets.

    Are you playing and singing at the same time?

No, actually. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don’t. I get better timing but worse vocals when I do. And this song was kind of hard to sing (I have a bit of sinus congestion right now, hitting that high note was hard). This was the only vocal take, whereas I had to do the guitar a couple of times. There a little inversion on the picking pattern, 2nd chord in the verse, that I kept messing up. :)

    Yeah, a little more bass and a melodic bass line, but that’s a taste call and you should do what works for yours, not mine.

I did the bass like four times, and at first I thought I needed to make it move more, especially as the song built. Then the movement started to show up more in the piano, and now I think I need to background it more — there’s places, specially as the final repeated verse starts, where you can hear the bass bumping along and it just doesn’t seem to need to.

The thing that is missing for sure is that the final verse is supposed to have harmonized backing vocals repeating the refrain under all of that, and that audio clip got corrupted in one of the crashes. I had already gone and adjusted the mic levels, so it was more work than i wanted to do just then to recreate them…

[Sky]

You guys always give me more comments/feedback on the recording than on the music. :)

Be careful what you wish for :) I'm not a fan of the genre, though your tunes are usually nice to listen to. It's tough building anything around a piano part, it's like the 'younger' blues guys said about the old timers when blues was electrifying; the acoustic guys were basically one-man bands, playing all the parts and the kids would say "They don't leave no place to play nothin on it!"

Nebu, my recording setup is far simpler, because I am. I have a MR8HD which purports to be an 8 track, but is really a 4 track for most purposes. I can bounce to 5/6 and 7/8 is for stereo mixdowns.

I have two ways of recording: with a backing track or "solo". Solo I just start with one track and build it up. So for track 1 I'd usually lay down a rhythm guitar piece. Then on track two I'd put bass, then lay vocals on 3 and put a lead on 4.

For a backing track, I'll put the backer on 4 or maybe bounce it to 5 or 6. Then layer on the pieces similar to the above. If it's a Hal Leonard Play-along, I'll leave the backer on. If it's just an album track, I'll cut it out after laying the rhythm parts down so I can sing and solo over my own parts.

Either way, I then bounce it to a stereo track after doing minimal mixing (live while bouncing). Send that to the pc via USB and that's about it. At some point I need to get audacity or acid or something and actually mix on the pc where I can actually spend some time tweaking things. I don't really do anything that is worth bothering with all that kind of stuff, imo. Would really love to get a macbook pro and go nuts, but $$$

I just got another mic (shure sm57 for guitar, sm58 for vox) so I can sing and play simultaneously. At first mostly going to use it for critical listening, finding out where the worst spots are in my simultaneous performance. I haven't really been doing disciplined practice lately, so it was pretty messy saturday when I was able to get in 2 hours straight. Wind Cries Mary actually made the wind cry imo.

Still need to come up with a solution for drums without blowing a lot of money. At least a click track or a drum machine, though I dislike them and find it hard to spend money on such a thing. Eventually I'll have my drums set up in the basement (seems dry enough now, need to build a riser though) and I'll end up putting live drums on my tracks...once I get back up to speed with that, anyway.

[Nebu]

I have two exeprience levels with recording:

1) on a fostex 4 track cassette recorder (circa 1984)

2) In a studio with a bajillion dollars worth of gear I don't understand.

I'd like to be able to record at least 8 tracks at home including a volcal harmonizer, a keyboard/synth, and a drum machine.  I may also buy an amp modeller for my guitar or anything else that will help hide how terrible my playing is.  

I'm guessing that I could run this through my desktop, but I don't even know where to begin with that.  I assumed I'd just buy a small mixing board and just direct box everything to it, but technology has gone well beyond this I'm sure.  

EDIT: Thanks Sky, you posted as I hit my reply.   

[Miguel]

I did the bass like four times, and at first I thought I needed to make it move more, especially as the song built.

In tunes without drums it's especially challenging to make a good bass line.  Good bass lines should always interplay with the kick drum and low toms, and when you don't have drums you almost have to make up a drum part yourself (or that's how you should be thinking about it).

Raph, in that tune you have natural accents on your rhythm guitar track which make great hook points for a bass line.  The tune sounds like it is in 8/4, but you are accenting in a 3/4 pattern, creating a syncopation.  Try doing a bass line in an opposing 3/4 and you'll get the movement you are looking for.

Still need to come up with a solution for drums without blowing a lot of money.

Would you entertain stepping up to a DAW?  If so, there's a billion sampled drum libraries that are amazing.

[Sky]

Nebs, links to the Fostex I mentioned. There's a 16 track version, but it's still only 4 live tracks.

Miguel, I've considered it (assuming just the software and importing individual tracks from the multitracker). But I have a low tolerance for fucking around with technology, it's why I prefer my Fulldrive2 over my Boss GT-6.

[Raph]

I think I posted about my setup before... it really is not all that complicated.

I run microphones, line ins, whatever, into my 4 track. I use that as a mixer, basically. It lets me set relative levels for the instrument mic versus the vocal mic, set some EQ, that sort of thing. It also lets me adjust the signal so that I don't clip there. I run drum machine, vocal harmonizer, and two offboard rack units I never use (compressor/limiter & reverb) into there. Sometimes I run the amp's out to there. Sometimes I run the guitars direct to there. All depends on the sound you want.

From there I connect to my soundcard. I have an old Audigy 2, but there's a zillion cards out there that would work. Back when, you had to have a card with regular audio inputs to get quality, but these days you can use USB pretty easily. I just run from the monitor out to the inputs. The end, very straightforward.

Then your audio software can pick it up from there. Audacity will do fine, it's not as slick as the higher-end DAWs ("digital audio workstation"). Hook it all up, put on headphones, turn off your speakers, and play something. Watch the meters to make sure you aren't too quiet or too loud. Try recording something loud, something soft, adjust mic positions and look for the tone you want. Then record.

Then go back to overdub, which is just rinse, repeat. You can use the DAW to mute some of the tracks, punch in, loop things, all that. It should feel mostly like using a computerized 4 track, honestly.

You can mix some as you go, or do it all at the end. You don't need to bounce anything, and your track capacity is limited only by RAM and disk space.

MIDI adds some extra requirements. You need a MIDI interface, and VSTs (digital virtual instruments) to play back the MIDI. But once you get it hooked up, in the simplest form you can just play the keyboard and it comes into the DAW basically as another track of whatever instrument it is.