Chris Roberts Back in your wallet - STAR CITIZEN

[apocrypha]

No, hes right.

Squadron 42, is mostly single player experience ( You can allow friends to join if you want ).
Star citizen can be played one of two ways, hosting your own server, or on the PU hosted by CIG. Your own server can be fully modded out if you want to be starwars. Too many people are responding as if this is a MMO, its really, REALLY not. Considering things like the PVE>PVP slider, your experience can be singular if that's what you want, and right now, the bare minimum for the game is around 40$, out of the 60$ it will be "at retail".

OK well that's interesting to know, however single player games are still affected by balance issues, and I'll be very surprised if the SC funding model doesn't have some major effects on the gameplay later on.

[Sir T]

So, your 40 quid gets you pretty much nothing right now. Fair enough...

[Nija]

$40 gets you hopes and dreams.

Such things that do not exist in video games.

[Paelos]

Granted, I think it's fair to beat on the game and it's lack of real features or the ability to produce half of what they promise to an unwitting public.

I don't think it's fair to bust on people here for putting $40 into something. That's a minimal cost, and they don't deserve to be racked over the coals for gambling with their money.

[Pennilenko]

When I spent my $45 it came with alpha & beta, including pre-order of squadron 42 and whatever version of multiplayer they end up releasing.  So no more of a waste than any other game I've pre-ordered. However, that was a long time ago, way before much of their crazy feature creep.

At this point in time it is very much a scam. I am pretty confident it became a scam when Roberts saw how much money suckers would throw at him.

[Sir T]

Full disclosure, I've backed 2 games in my time, Carrier Command and Planetary Annihilation (which hasn't been released yet), both when they were at the stage of Functional betas. Carrier command I actually played the crap out of the Beta and got my moneys worth out of that. The other one I bought as it is in the family of total Annihilation and Supreme commander, but I haven't been able to get it running as I didn't read that the beta only works on 64 bit machines. Ooops. :)

I think Paying full price for a Prefunctional Alpha of a game is pretty silly. Its ripe for exploitation and is profoundly anti-consumer.

[Rendakor]

I've only backed a handful of KS games, but I've preordered a ton of stuff.

[Maven]

What follows from idealism and optimism is disappointment. There will be many people disappointed that this game isn't the second coming of Christ here to take them away from the harsh cruelties and suffering of the material world.

I'm critical of anyone that considers games more than just entertainment, like the game will solve their life problems. That includes being critical of myself from 12-28. I could afford more compassion but I don't feel it. The implication I see is someone in need of therapy, not the Ultimate Immersive Experience from a software product, but that's a decision they have to make for themselves.

[schild]

I'm critical of anyone that considers games more than just entertainment, like the game will solve their life problems.

Made more money selling Magic cards, about ten times over, than I did from selling my stock at a certain company.

[Paelos]

I'm critical of anyone that considers games more than just entertainment, like the game will solve their life problems.

Made more money selling Magic cards, about ten times over, than I did from selling my stock at a certain company.

That's also an almost completely unique scenario. Almost because there are similar games that have secondary markets like that, but they are a minute percentage of overall gaming.

[Maven]

You know I didn't mean financial. I mean, look at the donators to Star Citizen. CLEARLY Financial isn't one of their problems (but perhaps good money management is).

[Kail]

Full disclosure, I've backed 2 games in my time, Carrier Command and Planetary Annihilation (which hasn't been released yet)

AFAIK Planetary Annihilation was released back in early September (I guess you could argue it was never finished, but that's a whole other kettle of fish).  It's not in Early Access anymore, anyway.  The dev is getting hit with layoffs, too, after their latest kickstarter failed, so the future looks dicey. [/ramble]

[brellium]

Full disclosure, I've backed 2 games in my time, Carrier Command and Planetary Annihilation (which hasn't been released yet)

AFAIK Planetary Annihilation was released back in early September (I guess you could argue it was never finished, but that's a whole other kettle of fish).  It's not in Early Access anymore, anyway.  The dev is getting hit with layoffs, too, after their latest kickstarter failed, so the future looks dicey. [/ramble]

Hey, look it's back on metacrtic.

Just means I can put my zero back on it, rightfully deserved for being put on steam for 99.99$ as an alpha.

[UnSub]

I saw Chris Roberts' panel at PAXAus, which wasn't the one where they showed off this footage. In that early discussion he called Star Citizen a "shared dream" that was everything he (and others) wanted a space game to be, and I think that "dream" is an excellent description for this game.

We also got to see some SC dogfighting where the pilot few into several asteroids while blowing up ships that were clearly underpowered next to him.

I'm glad I didn't try to get into see the SC FPS footage, given how uninspired that looked. Apparently even in SC's universe space ships can't afford to be well lit.

[schild]

I'm critical of anyone that considers games more than just entertainment, like the game will solve their life problems.

Made more money selling Magic cards, about ten times over, than I did from selling my stock at a certain company.

That's also an almost completely unique scenario. Almost because there are similar games that have secondary markets like that, but they are a minute percentage of overall gaming.

I always like using Magic as an example for almost anything because "Most popular physical game in the world and (probably the) largest secondary hobby-based market in the world" is still considered niche.

[Jeff Kelly]

Why do I care?

I care because of the potential ramifications this has on the whole video game ecosystem. At this point I honestly hope that Star Citizen crashes and burns so completely that there's no chance in hell that anyone else will ever try something similar.

Because if it doesn't then people will copy the approach. Star Citizen could become the best gaming experience ever, beloved by all, the Citizen Kane of video games and yet what the business side would take away from the whole deal is that there is no problem to charge people five-digit figures for limited edition virtual goods, nickle-and-dime them for bits and pieces, to promise them the world and basically tacitly accept that people ruin themselves by spending >$10,000 on virtual goods in a game that might never be released. Even if it's just a bad game but the public outrage is low people might get ideas as to how willing and/or stupid people are to spend insane amounts of money on junk.

Just look at what the success of free-to-play has done to the business side of things. Look at Steam and the legion of games that are perpetually in 'early access'. This could lead to free-to-play plus early access cranked up to 11 as everyone races to be the first to make a fortune until the whole money-making scheme crashes and burns.

I also care because Chris Roberts is either a fraud, who has no problem fleecing people for money and tricking them into spending all of their savings on something that probably never existed or he is so deluded by his own dream and vision of 'the perfect everything but the kitchen sink' game and so drunk on his own egotism that he has lost is and basically treats his fans as perpetual ATMs to come closer to his dream. At this point chances are so slim that this will become everything his fans hope - a game that justifies spending thousands of dollars on it - that the consequences of this crashing and burning or even just not delivering as promised are something the whole industry will be affected by. For better or worse.

[Jeff Kelly]

It also pains me to say this because I agree that "How dare they make a game I may enjoy, I hope they fail" is a sucky attitude to have.

Best case it's a great game yet nobody thinks of it as something that should be emulated on the business side, second best case is that it is a mediocre game that will soon be forgotten and the lesson will be to basically not do it like Chris Roberts.

I've been around long enough though to get the impression that Chris Roberts has opened a can of worms we'll all be dealing with in the future.

[Typhon]

(holy shit this is long, sorry)

People are ALREADY trying to follow this model, success seems harder to come by.  There are already rumblings of the kickstarter model imploding.  More importantly, the recipe for this particular kickstarter is so specific, how would anyone reproduce it? 

For Star Citizen;

1) Genre that is beloved, but for some reason no one has made a successful game in the genre for a decade. 
2) Kickstarter "Big Name" is the creator of one of the most beloved series in the genre. 
3) SC kickstarter is kicked off during the kickstarter honeymoon phase.
4) Biggest fans of the kickstarter are all 30+ with real jobs and real money.

I'm very torn on the, "it's bad because people can't control themselves", conversation because the worst of these kickstarters are scams that are just selling hope.  Unfortunately, the best of the kickstarters are also, at least initially, just as guilty of selling only one thing - hope.  I get that there are people with mental disease that can't help themselves, but there are (in my completely unscientific and totally not backed up with statistics) more people that are just dumb-asses that need to be responsible for bad decisions.  I just don't feel sorry for dumbasses that make bad decisions.  I've been that dumbass, you pick yourself up and try to learn something from it.

And F2P?  Why would you even mention F2P?  F2P is a completely different beast and is so pro-gamers-rights it doesn't belong in the same post (because you come off like F2P is a bad thing).  I get to play the game for free to decide if I like it and the business model.  If I don't like either, I should just walk away... you know, and not be a dumbass.  TF2, League of Legends and Marvel Heroes (among many) are great games with the business model done right.  F2P is fine.

Now, don't get me wrong, he is selling virtual towels, afterall.  Best case shit has gotten weird at the top of the house and Chris has wandered into dangerous mental territory.  But that said, if the SC team creates a space shooter that allows me to shoot em up in space and then board a derelict that shoot em up in an "average FPS shooter" all in the same game then... lol, holy crap that's awesome, has that ever been done before?  I was mostly just sleep through this whole thing but that actually sounds pretty cool.

I pick and choose games that interest me and are affordable.  At no time do I imagine that I have to be the morals and ethics police for the industry.  I also don't get off on imagining doom at every new way of doing things that comes along.

[Maven]

I agree with your view on Chris Roberts, Jeff, but there's other possibilities. CIG leadership might have had the self-awareness to realize how far this was going, but they had gotten too far to pull the plug or scale back without undermining consumer confidence or killing the momentum.

I doubt Chris is coming up with the schemes to part money with fool, but I absolutely believe he's the smoke screen they're using to hide the business types behind the scenes. Alternatively, giving Chris the benefit of the doubt, he could be doing everything necessary to keep a facade over the enterprise and buy time to finish the game lest the pending lawsuits ruin his company and his reputation. His company is under the gun to deliver. His customers are dreamers. So he delivers new dreams to digest.

I do want to see this crash and burn, because that's all an over-hyped game can do, only now instead of dissatisfied customers, there's potential legal action and the larger effect on the industry.   Most games make their money in that first week after release, just like movies, but CIG has pioneered a method to take that first week and extend it backwards before the release date as far as they'd like.

It's the bastard child of "perpetual Beta" releases and aesthetic DLC.

[Rendakor]

Now, don't get me wrong, he is selling virtual towels, afterall. 

I thought they were selling actual, physical towels.

[HaemishM]

But that said, if the SC team creates a space shooter that allows me to shoot em up in space and then board a derelict that shoot em up in an "average FPS shooter" all in the same game then... lol, holy crap that's awesome, has that ever been done before? 

I think that's the been the impetus behind the Good Doctor Enemy of Coke Machines Everywhere's game that he has been recreating and renaming for the last 20 years.

[lamaros]

Has a mediocre game ever had a mediocre mini game? Yes. Is that really cause for celebration just due to scale?

I dislike this game for doing wrong what it does wrong. I really don't thing it needs any more reason than that.

[Samprimary]

I remember when I was playing System Shock 2, slowly unlocking all the game pig games, and having my character play overworld zero while hiding in the chem room

[Mrbloodworth]

I Think Jeff Kelly has some valid concerns about things surrounding the game, but what he said has little to do with the game itself.  However, he paints a picture of possibly the worst situation, that I'm willing to bet is no where near common. At all. And quite likely to happen in other titles more frequently. Looking at you collectable card games with your RNG power increases for real cash. If you have a source for a large amount of people bankrupting themselves over this id like to see it. I Haven't spent more than i normally do on a pre-order ( two copies ), but that's me.


I Am quite positive someone, somewhere will attempt to emulate this. That's a forgone conclusion for me. But as I said before, I think there are some real reasons why this title has taken off in this method.

* Legendary developer. Your personal opinions aside, Chris Roberts made some of the most beloved series in gaming. Especially for the target audience.
* The game, as pitched, is the game every fan of space pew pew wanted while playing those titles. You can reference myself saying "I want a space game where I am not just s ship" for years on this site. Hell, even CCP knows this, however the attempt went.
* Its now 2014, the average gamer is 30+, and also, most likely played all of his, and his teams titles. In this aspect, this game could not have come at a better time. And its easy to see why this swath of gamers would back, and CAN back. This is important. His target audience is adults with jobs. They brought the project to this point.
* This is something I think the conversation here always misses when talking about how this is happening. The open, frequent communication with backers. It's undeniable. Weekly, monthly, and daily ( in the form of daily developer posts responding to backer questions, Every, single, day ) If you are glossing over this, you are missing a huge chunk of whats driving pledges now. Word of mouth is powerful. Being able to show people, right on your hard drive, the progress and changes being made is powerful. It spreads. Attempts to emulate with out this will hurt you.
* Integration of feedback. They do it all the time, unlike traditional development. This is not a trick, its is completely real. Its happening right now. Proof right in front of people. Every patch.
* The backers of this game, voted to continue this method of fund raising. Full stop. When you are making a title for a group of people, you care about them, and their wants. Chris asked if they should stop, backers said no. Loudly. ( This was right after the kickstarter.com campaign ended )
* Love it or hate it, true or not, the shunning of consoles, widely blamed for holding back gaming, is also quite powerful. divisive even, a buzz spring well. Especially with the target audience.
* This has always been, and always will be a Niche title. If it happens to go mainstream, I suspect it will be purely on its own merits. But that's clearly not the intent in its design, Permadeath and even the FPS mechanics being more akin to ARMA illustrate this. Viewing it thought the lens of "its attempting to be the net COD level of popularity" is the wrong lens.

I'm going to repeat something though. The design, at least in the 10,000 foot view. Has not changed, and IS what many, MANY ( 600k+ ) want. You, who does not care about space simulation games, my not understand the want to be more than just a ship. That does not make it irrelevant. For me, and my group, this design is what we have imagined, talked, and argued about for decades now. Ships, avatars, risk. Technical limitations of the past are gone. We see an increasing list of games in this space finally implementing it to varying degrees of success. Its not something to hand wave over.

The so called "stretch goals" while there were some early on that increased the scope, for the most part, the scope has not changed, we are just in the production steps of the original design. I Understand about seeing new ships come off the pipeline could look like creep. But the ships, are a major chunk of content, and a very larger platform for a multitude of game-play systems. If you had no idea salvage was a thing, you could easily see the reclaimer as creep. All the "milestone" rewards as of late are not new additions, but rather allowing the backers to choose what order they are worked on. Space ships, FPS mechanics, Economy and trade, bounty's and salvage were always on the plate. If you played a Chris Roberts title, wing commander, strike commander, privater or freelancer, its a no brainier. Its the DNA of his games. This is likely the game freelancer was intended to be.

Is it a very ambitious title? Yes. That was stated before a single cent was taken. Do backers care? I'm going with no, on average, in fact its why they are backing. Its why they voted to continue ship sales. People want this game made. People are willing to pay to have it made. ( Underlined for emphasis ) Its a cork that's been waiting to pop for a long long time.

The towel, along with the lamp are another example of backer requests.

I Can't personally predict how well the game will do over time, it has a lot of moving parts. I Can say, the work they have done, is impressive, and right in front of me. And how they are developing it, is likely the only way it would be done ( Referring to the multiple development houses working from a common core )

Do I care, should I care, that some small few may over extend themselves with pledging? No, not really. But I' not trying to tell people how to make what should be simple decision by adults. Do I think they have been unclear about what the project is, and what you get for your money? No, I do not. People back things to make them happen, dream, vision, what ever you want to call it. Its not uncommon, in gaming or anywhere else. Every ground breaking game starts with an idea that seems imposable. It's also true many never leave paper. That's life.

Back things you care about.


EDIT: "Hope." I think its one thing to sell hope, that you never even see. I think its another to sell hope, and then give slices as you go along, showing progress on the greater "hope". Another powerful draw for this. It's not one in the same.

[Jeff Kelly]

The difference is that Roberts probably never intended Star Citizen to turn into what it is now. He runs with it sure and he's at least accepting and encouraging people to spend $300 on a 'limited edition' spaceship but hey 'what's the problem, eh?' He's probably still trying to put out an actual game though.

The people emulating his approach will be much more professional about it though.

[Mrbloodworth]

The difference is that Roberts probably never intended Star Citizen to turn into what it is now. He runs with it sure and he's at least accepting and encouraging people to spend $300 on a 'limited edition' spaceship....

I Can't say this is true. I would say his original idea was tempered with realities when it went to kickstarter ( Assumptions on funding, time, resources ). But then the support happened, and boy did it happen. I would say as it stands now, everything on the plate. Is closer to what that unrestricted design was, and by unrestricted, I mean it allowed things to be shifted to be earlier, or more in parallel. Quite frankly, I can't imagine he originally thought he would have this much support or the ability to develop with this many houses or infrastructure. After all, conventional wisdom was that no one played space sims.

Can't say I envy the need to keep all that managed.

As for the method of funding, he did ask. Backers voted. We have 300$ pledge packages. And again, games not out yet, you want to back it or not back it is a personal valuation, and a simple decision. Clearly its one many have reconciled with.


EDIT: An aside:  "The Stats Page" (Star Citizen Educational Series)

EDIT 2: Also, you do know, even the "limited" ships are fully available in the game, though the single-player ( as in the redeemer, used in the story ), or in the PU VIA credits? Or, simply granted due to the private hosting?

[Mrbloodworth]

My problem with MrB. in this instance, as I said before (and in my opinion what makes him look crazy), is that he is not expressing any caution in his support for the vision.

I Missed this when reading though before. Ill bite. Even though, in just about every post I have told people not to back more than 45$, because that's just a value right there ( Retail is said to be 60$ ), and I have said time and time again, if you think its a waste, don't back.

Gimme a moment.

All my concerns are likely in the details.

* My major concern is the deliberate design decision to link camera view to the skeleton. For instance, entering a buggy right now, is a nauseating experience for me, and other I have shown the game. I firmly believe there are good reasons to have a detached camera view from the animations of the toon. Its a point I disagree with CR and Co with. One of the first games I ever attempted to make, I set up like this ( REAAAAALLLLLL! ). I Hated it. But, on the flip side, ARMA uses this technique, and it is a successful title, and people DO enjoy it. Also, it does facilitate what they are doing with huds and helms, something I do like. Its my understanding though, right now, none of the mocap is in yet, its all hand jammed animations or stock. maybe this will temper it, maybe that will exaggerate it. No idea. However, the recent FPS demo, pre-show did go over some of the things they are doing to mitigate this, specifically modeling the eyes in the head. This is one of those areas I hope they iterate on, and improve over time. Everything tells me they will. Its also something I need to "feel" for myself, and everyone will "feel" it differently.

* Some of the houses they are using, are slightly untested. Obviously this concerns me, however, they are not in a vacuum, and are over seen by the core. Time will tell.

* Multi-crew ships, and the outline of how they work. My main concern here is if it will be fun. Someone mentioned gunning for someone in other games, and it being erratic. I have experienced this myself in games like jump to light speed. But again, its one of those things, you have to see it, and "feel" it. I Do know that comparatively, anything with a man-able turret in this title are lumbering beasts, unlike ships in Jump to light-speed. Hopefully that will mitigate it too.

* I Also wonder how tight they will get the multi-grid system working. Its one of those points I think needs to be refined more than is reasonable. It can quite easily make the game feel cheep if your passengers slide around occasional ( beyond the forces of physics ). Mismatching inheritance in this area can really, REALLY make a game feel cheep. I think we have all experienced this in games before, and you know what I mean.

* The modular ship consoles and permissions systems look promising, but also could open up a world of exploits and unintended issues if not checked. Thankfully, they have 600k + testers seeing every version of it.

* I worry about the instancing. As described, they have a clever plan. As someone who played Wing commander and freelancer way to much, I do not mind the idea of "warp drive, autopilot" like cut scenes. It's the larger engagements I wonder about. Will people notice, how seamless will it end up being, how much can they be hidden? I'm not one to scream it all needs to be truly seamless, just not noticeable.

* Another animation thing, that I'm not sure if its part of the above or not. In between every animation, every interactions, other than transitional stats of walking. There is this "twitch" as if the camera resets, sometimes its fast, sometimes its not. It's something that may be smoothed over with time, but right now, its jarring. You can see this in videos and in the client. Walk up to something, interact, it transitions to the interaction animations, but "twitches" to it. A lot like a misaligned idle pose. It could very well be the use of stock animations and hand jammed they are using currently. Not sure.

* I worry that, for the lowest denominator that what you are getting at this point is not clear. They have been improving this, and I would wager average users understand. It's not as if its hidden. I just think they need to push a bit more to "unmistakeable to a five year old" territory. Again, its not that its not clear. But for some, even things right in your face they miss.

* I worry that the push to make this the best looking game on PC, may push some, in terms of hardware a budget, out. Not that I don't think, uncoupled by the need for a console release, they should not use the full potential of PC's, but that its an easy line to cross accidentally. Its just too early to tell, everything runs fine for me currently. Load times are long however.

* 8k textures. I may be too accustomed to older engines and rendering pipelines. But when I hear they are using 8k x 8k textures. I cringe a bit inside. ( I also do not know how they are using them, could be atlas ETC.. )

* I had concerns about the targeting and flight before this recent update. I do not anymore. It seems to be the large focus at the moment, and it shows.

* I do worry about creep, but I have not seem much of it. YMMV. But its a really, really easy thing to have happen in this scope of a game. I hope its tempered. After all, it IS Chris Roberts.

* Player models. Other than the outfits. There is some serious issues with the players faces. as if the uncanny valley had its own valley. But that's just aesthetics.

* Ambitious scope. On one hand, I applaud them heartily, on the other. Its scary. But i backed because I want this game, and I want it to happen. No regret on that.

For a lot of this games development, its simply to early. I recognize the stage they are in, so its hard for me to pass judgement on systems ether barely implemented, or not implemented. I need to "feel" things. I need to see them, and the progression they take. Thankfully, my 45$ gave me just that. I do not spend hours on the game, as other have said, access like this can ware people down. I am avoiding this by only messing with major releases.

[Mrbloodworth]

[Yegolev]

Nice.

[Typhon]

Now, don't get me wrong, he is selling virtual towels, afterall. 

I thought they were selling actual, physical towels.

Oh, heh heh, thank god.... wait, what?  (laughing)

[Venkman]

I care because of the potential ramifications this has on the whole video game ecosystem.

<snip>

Just look at what the success of free-to-play has done to the business side of things. Look at Steam and the legion of games that are perpetually in 'early access'. This could lead to free-to-play plus early access cranked up to 11 as everyone races to be the first to make a fortune until the whole money-making scheme crashes and burns.

I think you addressed your own fear, but I also think you're putting too much blame on this game.

Fleecing impressionable players with virtual goods has been happening before the term "f2p" legitimized what we were derisively referring to as "RMT". Most of the mobile games and almost all of the social games industry is monetized on the f2p model.

KS backed games have already entered the diminishing returns phase. Steam early access already has well known issues. There's no more big budget AAA pipe dream MMO on the horizon to mock. And getting noticed on mobile requires as much luck and marketing dollars as early console games.

Heck the failure of SC can't even cause the death of space sims. Space sims just aren't a thing enough to kill.

The only damage a failure of SC can cause is emotional and financial to the backers and the people who worked on it. Will give a fickle press some content for awhile, but that will be based more on the timing of the failure than the event itself. For example, if they close shop in Nov or Dec, nobody will even notice.

To be clear: I don't wish that to happen.

[Sir T]

Full disclosure, I've backed 2 games in my time, Carrier Command and Planetary Annihilation (which hasn't been released yet)

AFAIK Planetary Annihilation was released back in early September (I guess you could argue it was never finished, but that's a whole other kettle of fish).  It's not in Early Access anymore, anyway.  The dev is getting hit with layoffs, too, after their latest kickstarter failed, so the future looks dicey. [/ramble]

Heh, I didn't even realize the thing had been released. Oh well, I got a good game with some issues on one jump and got burned on the other. I'll take my 50% average and run away screaming.   

[Mrbloodworth]

Crowd-funding with Star Citizen creator Chris Roberts - ABC News 24

[Mrbloodworth]

Awesome fan Trailer.

Star Citizen "Imagine" Fan Trailer

[Samwise]

I haven't been following the in-game videos well enough to be able to make an educated guess -- is any of that video in-game footage?

(In-engine is not the same as in-game and you know it.)