Chris Roberts Back in your wallet - STAR CITIZEN

[ezrast]

Or a fun thing, for that matter. I don't see how anyone who has played a game before and has critical thinking skills can find that scenario compelling at all. First, sit by yourself in a crate in deep space and hope somebody finds you. Are you exhilarated yet?? Then hope they're dumb enough not to identify you and incinerate you instantly, to showcase how much skill you have! After that, engage in PvP so asymmetrical it will make your eyes bleed, because who doesn't want to be forced into hand-to-hand combat while playing a trader in a goddamn spaceship game?

Stop being mean to Mr. Bloodworth that's not nice. What's the point of this thread if you're just gonna post shit like that?

Not sure how deep in the chasm I am but just to put it out there, I wasn't trying to target anyone here with my response. It was the first thing I thought of when I read the thing Montague quoted; it just took me a while to get around to posting it.

[jakonovski]

Just a reality check: this is a totally unfinished, crowd funded game project of unprecedented feature creep, that also aggressively monetizes everything it can, and at incredibly steep price points. It demonstrably hooks people much like an addiction would, sometimes to the point of financial ruin.

It's not possible to for any discussion of this thing to be in the format of traditional upcoming games threads.

[Goreschach]

Just a reality check: this is a totally unfinished, crowd funded game project of unprecedented feature creep, that also aggressively monetizes everything it can, and at incredibly steep price points. It demonstrably hooks people much like an addiction would, sometimes to the point of financial ruin.

It's not possible to for any discussion of this thing to be in the format of traditional upcoming games threads.

And the guy behind the project hasn't made a game in like two decades.

[HaemishM]

But he did make the Wing Commander movie. 

[Samprimary]

Honestly, the most likely outcome is that the game comes out and it's okay, out maybe even possibly good, but the expectations of the True Believers who threw literally thousands of dollars at this thing cannot be met under any earthly circumstances and their mass delusion will only cause months of paroxysmal howling. The producers are eating their time trying to temper the expectations of a bunch of fixing lunatics, then turning around and actively fostering the lunacy because it gets them millions of dollars. Millions! And they're going to waste so much time and scope trying to artlessly hack a game around the bloated, weird ships they've already sold, but they should really just shut off the hype machine and stop wasting time on anything but the whole making the core gameplay features part.

Which, of course, creates the next most likely outcome: they don't and the game is sub par because they spent so much time promising the moon and not knowing how to focus their time and resources to things that would actually ever fucking work.

[Ingmar]

It's not possible to for any discussion of this thing to be in the format of traditional upcoming games threads.

Is it really that different from the Vanguard thread?

[Hutch]

Or the Horizons thread?
Was there a Horizons thread? Did that game precede F13?

[schild]

Neither Vanguard nor Horizons even remotely compare to Chris Roberts. McQuaid and the trio of asshat buttheads behind Horizons conned business-people into giving them money. I don't believe either of those games were a con, but I do believe that no one associated with either were mentally stable enough to be considered good investments.

Star Citizen, however, is a con perpetrated on the public and should be treated as such. He will never deliver the experience he's promising whether he has $5M or $50M. It's a shame he has the latter. Also, depressing.

Edit: Horizons pre-dated f13 by a few months, it happened during the transition period as well. By the time f13 had started it had petered out.

[Merusk]

Or the Horizons thread?
Was there a Horizons thread? Did that game precede F13?

Preceded. It was Lum's site and minted the fetuspault meme.

[Triforcer]

Or a fun thing, for that matter. I don't see how anyone who has played a game before and has critical thinking skills can find that scenario compelling at all. First, sit by yourself in a crate in deep space and hope somebody finds you. Are you exhilarated yet?? Then hope they're dumb enough not to identify you and incinerate you instantly, to showcase how much skill you have! After that, engage in PvP so asymmetrical it will make your eyes bleed, because who doesn't want to be forced into hand-to-hand combat while playing a trader in a goddamn spaceship game?

Actually, given my limited video game time, I'd love that.  I'd sit in a crate for a week, have my computer beep at me when someone opens it, and stab them.  We finally have a worthy successor to GL Jeff.  Wait- is Chris Roberts GL Jeff?  Do we know? 

[Venkman]

Just a reality check: this is a totally unfinished, crowd funded game project of unprecedented feature creep, that also aggressively monetizes everything it can, and at incredibly steep price points. It demonstrably hooks people much like an addiction would, sometimes to the point of financial ruin.

This should be the whole thread title.

Edit: eh, it might be a bit too long

[calapine]

Just a reality check: this is a totally unfinished, crowd funded game project of unprecedented feature creep, that also aggressively monetizes everything it can, and at incredibly steep price points. It demonstrably hooks people much like an addiction would, sometimes to the point of financial ruin.

It's not possible to for any discussion of this thing to be in the format of traditional upcoming games threads.

It's interesting how different people can see things.  

My view towards the game at the moment is the same as for Elite Dangerous: I have them "pre-ordered" but currently not enough involved to follow the development or play the beta.

Re your points:

• aggressively monetizes everything it can, and at incredibly steep price points

Actually you can get the full game for USD 40.--, which is almost Indie-title priced. Of course the higher tiers are crazy, and I would never buy into them. But as long as I am not forced to it's hard to get upset about. Wether the push towards crowd-funding in gaming is a good thing, and where the border between reasonable and milking the players lies, might be worth a debate. But it's essentially a philosophic discussion and doesn't really affect me as player who just wants some shoot some Kilrathi Vanduuls.

• unprecedented feature creep

Definitely happening, despite them saying they are aware of the issue. Elite Dangerous doesn't even try to add first-person player characters and instead says "we might do it in an expansion". Which is probably the better approach than promising the pie in the sky and later having to back-pedal once release date closes in. But whether gimmicks like "can hide in a box" make it or not...eh, who cares.

The core part of flying a fighter craft is in the game. During the time I played it started out very rough (ships feeling weightless, controls being yanky, flight model being very limited). The feedback was followed by some very long posts from their flight physics guy, which addressed the problems and outlined planned changes. And weeks later the first iterations, which noticeable improved (although not completely  fixed) the craft handling. Which left me with a good impression that a) they devs actually understand what the issue with their gameplay is b) they are competent enough to produce results in a reasonable time-frame. Something that notable the MWO-devs failed horribly on both points.

To recap: The space flying part is shaping up solid. There will be some form of "MMO" and multi-player game-play around that, so it's going to be a game of space pew pew together with friends. Whether they manage to actually implement 50% or 75% of the bullet points they promised is, in my eyes, not going to make or break the game. It's a pizza situation: Even if it's bad it's still good.

[schild]

Actually you can get the full game for USD 40.--, which is almost Indie-title priced.

No. $15 is basically the upper end of actual Indie titles, though a few here and there have crept a tiny bit higher.

$50M in crowd-funding is less "Indie" than Madden.

[lamaros]

Just a reality check: this is a totally unfinished, crowd funded game project of unprecedented feature creep, that also aggressively monetizes everything it can, and at incredibly steep price points. It demonstrably hooks people much like an addiction would, sometimes to the point of financial ruin.

It's not possible to for any discussion of this thing to be in the format of traditional upcoming games threads.

It's interesting how different people can see things.  

My view towards the game at the moment is the same as for Elite Dangerous: I have them "pre-ordered" but currently not enough involved to follow the development or play the beta.

Re your points:

• aggressively monetizes everything it can, and at incredibly steep price points

Actually you can get the full game for USD 40.--, which is almost Indie-title priced. Of course the higher tiers are crazy, and I would never buy into them. But as long as I am not forced to it's hard to get upset about. Wether the push towards crowd-funding in gaming is a good thing, and where the border between reasonable and milking the players lies, might be worth a debate. But it's essentially a philosophic discussion and doesn't really affect me as player who just wants some shoot some Kilrathi Vanduuls.

Completely wrong. You don't play in a vacuum. They don't design or spend their resources in one either.

Moreover you don't live in one, and their behaviour around this game is offensively wrong.

[apocrypha]

• aggressively monetizes everything it can, and at incredibly steep price points

Actually you can get the full game for USD 40.--, which is almost Indie-title priced. Of course the higher tiers are crazy, and I would never buy into them. But as long as I am not forced to it's hard to get upset about. Wether the push towards crowd-funding in gaming is a good thing, and where the border between reasonable and milking the players lies, might be worth a debate. But it's essentially a philosophic discussion and doesn't really affect me as player who just wants some shoot some Kilrathi Vanduuls.

It's rare that I disagree with you Calapine, but on this I really do. It does affect the game experience of someone who avoids all of the extra monetisation because the entire structure of this game is being built around it. It will totally affect balance and economy.

And yes, there may be a border between reasonable behavior and milking the players, and there is no way that this game is anywhere near that border, it is far, far over it and is using some of the most egregious methods and psychology to encourage it. RSI is abusing it's fans and is acting more like a drug dealer than a game developer.

It also has the potential to inflict major damage on the entire concept of crowd funded games development, which is already IMO on life support. And that would be a shame because there are some real gems that have come out of it in the last few years, Kerbal Space Program, Papers Please, etc.

[jakonovski]

It's interesting how different people can see things.  

Having a close relative who almost ruined their life through gambling addiction, I have a really low tolerance for creative monetization schemes. Earlier I thought SC was merely crazy, but that story of someone's friend spending 18k kinda made up my mind. They're being predatory and at this point they should know it.

[Falconeer]

The pre-sale of the pre-sale of a limited edition ship (called Concept Sale) for a mere 300$ really pisses me off.

[apocrypha]

Having a close relative who almost ruined their life through gambling addiction, I have a really low tolerance for creative monetization schemes. Earlier I thought SC was merely crazy, but that story of someone's friend spending 18k kinda made up my mind. They're being predatory and at this point they should know it.

Yes, spot on. Gambling addiction is what this makes me think of. There are undoubtedly some people who's lives are being fucked by this bastard and I do not believe in blaming the victim.

[Paelos]

I don't pretend that most people care about people throwing their money at this for stupid reasons or addictive personalities.

What I care about is that this offends me as a person that sees the long-reaching tendrils of this thing to con-men elsewhere. This thing HAS to flame out and serve as a horrible example to these derelicts, or we're all going to suffer in the industry as more people continue to try this hackneyed model.

[Draegan]

A fool and their money are soon parted. If it isn't this it's something else. You guys are too easily offended.

[Pennilenko]

A fool and their money are soon parted. If it isn't this it's something else. You guys are too easily offended.

You sir, have offended me.

[Tebonas]

Maybe I lose 30 dollars when that whole thing explodes and the ensuing drama from all those high-paying people will be well worth the price, maybe their accumulated money will improve my game (I sincerely doubt that will happen).

I fear they will deliver a sub-par to mediocre game that will disappoint everyone but not enrage anyone, though.

[Jeff Kelly]

A fool and their money are soon parted. If it isn't this it's something else. You guys are too easily offended.

It ain't that easy.

Firstly I hate victim blaming. Secondly you quite wrongfully assume that people who fall for such cons are less intelligent than you and that you - being more intelligent and wise in the ways of the world - are immune from falling victim to any con artists and their psychological tricks. Con artists are smart people and constantly devise better ways to get you by exploiting your personality flaws. Exploiting the arrogance of their victims is one way they get you.

Thirdly in the context of gambling and gambling-equivalent monetarization schemes like free to play gaming you're up against a whole team of behavioral psychologists and sociology majors that are employed to make the gameplay as addictive and 'compelling' as they possibly can. They have more people working on new ways to make you spend money than they have people that actually design and develop the game.

Destiny is a recent example of behavioral psychology finding its way into game design, even though it isn't (yet) a monetarization scheme. Just think about all of the 'Destiny is a disappointing game yet I can't stop playing' posts.

Just because there hasn't been anyone lately that tried to sell you a bridge in manhattan doesn't mean that you aren't constantly pressured and subtly manipulated to do things you don't want to do. Just go grocery shopping in a supermarket and you are at a place that has been designed by psychologists and shaped in a way to make you buy stuff you don't need.

So don't hate the people falling for such scams, hate the people that employ them. Especially when it could mean the end of games and could turn the whole business into basically designing more and more elaborate money extraction shemes.

[Draegan]

A fool and their money are soon parted. If it isn't this it's something else. You guys are too easily offended.

It ain't that easy.

Firstly I hate victim blaming. Secondly you quite wrongfully assume that people who fall for such cons are less intelligent than you and that you - being more intelligent and wise in the ways of the world - are immune from falling victim to any con artists and their psychological tricks. Con artists are smart people and constantly devise better ways to get you by exploiting your personality flaws. Exploiting the arrogance of their victims is one way they get you.

Thirdly in the context of gambling and gambling-equivalent monetarization schemes like free to play gaming you're up against a whole team of behavioral psychologists and sociology majors that are employed to make the gameplay as addictive and 'compelling' as they possibly can. They have more people working on new ways to make you spend money than they have people that actually design and develop the game.

Destiny is a recent example of behavioral psychology finding its way into game design, even though it isn't (yet) a monetarization scheme. Just think about all of the 'Destiny is a disappointing game yet I can't stop playing' posts.

Just because there hasn't been anyone lately that tried to sell you a bridge in manhattan doesn't mean that you aren't constantly pressured and subtly manipulated to do things you don't want to do. Just go grocery shopping in a supermarket and you are at a place that has been designed by psychologists and shaped in a way to make you buy stuff you don't need.

So don't hate the people falling for such scams, hate the people that employ them. Especially when it could mean the end of games and could turn the whole business into basically designing more and more elaborate money extraction shemes.

Don't you have a crusade against something you have to go to?

[Paelos]

A fool and their money are soon parted. If it isn't this it's something else. You guys are too easily offended.

If it's something else, fine. Not this. I'm offended by the idea of crowd-funding for video games as a whole, but they are usually small and contained. I can move past that. This is something else on such a large scale that the budget is now moving into AAA territory. I don't want anybody to try anything like this ever again. I want it to burn.

[calapine]

It's rare that I disagree with you Calapine, but on this I really do.

And yes, there may be a border between reasonable behavior and milking the players, and there is no way that this game is anywhere near that border, it is far, far over it and is using some of the most egregious methods and psychology to encourage it. RSI is abusing it's fans and is acting more like a drug dealer than a game developer.

Having a close relative who almost ruined their life through gambling addiction, I have a really low tolerance for creative monetization schemes. Earlier I thought SC was merely crazy, but that story of someone's friend spending 18k kinda made up my mind. They're being predatory and at this point they should know it.

Yes, spot on. Gambling addiction is what this makes me think of. There are undoubtedly some people who's lives are being fucked by this bastard and I do not believe in blaming the victim.

Hmmm. Fair point. This isn't something I had really considered. The initial impression was that the ships sale isn't really qualitatively different from MWO dangling robots in front of your nose, or taking a shortcut with ISK in EvE.

It (gambling addiction) is not a topic though I feel informed enough to make a judgement, so I will take a your word for it.

[Draegan]

A fool and their money are soon parted. If it isn't this it's something else. You guys are too easily offended.

If it's something else, fine. Not this. I'm offended by the idea of crowd-funding for video games as a whole, but they are usually small and contained. I can move past that. This is something else on such a large scale that the budget is now moving into AAA territory. I don't want anybody to try anything like this ever again. I want it to burn.

Why do you care so much in a general sense? I understand the vitriol with SC because of it's outrageous ship costs and shit like that, but in a general sense? Who cares. People want to invest into a game, and a lot of people do it? Who cares. Maybe you'll get a good game.

[Maven]

Peak Stupid.  Brilliant.

I'm with Jeff and Paelos. I want this to blow up, because until it does, we're stuck in this "It looks like a scam." rather than hard evidence of "It was a scam." If we're proven wrong, we're proven wrong. But experience in the games industry gives you the knowledge that something very, very wrong is happening here.

You need a certain idealism and passion to get through the rigors of the development cycle. I'm witnessing that same disconnected idealism in their marketing that paints the game as more important and meaningful than it ever could be. In the meantime, the money is extracted from the wallet because people aren't paying attention to that messy reality.

Ever heard about the fish in a fishbowl asking what water is? That's the way I feel about capitalism's presence in gaming, only gamers are the fish.

Hey, Jeff, appreciate the long posts.

[Hoax]

I care because I hate religion.

And in my internet villages Star Citizen feels and sounds and acts like an organized religion. So it bothers the fuck out of me.

[Draegan]

I care because I hate religion.

And in my internet villages Star Citizen feels and sounds and acts like an organized religion. So it bothers the fuck out of me.

You can find that in any online game pre-launch.

[Samwise]

I understand defending this game if you've sunk money into it and are trying to justify your poor decisions, but otherwise I can think of far more deserving damsels to white-knight.

[Rendakor]

I care because I hate religion.

And in my internet villages Star Citizen feels and sounds and acts like an organized religion. So it bothers the fuck out of me.

You can find that in any online game pre-launch.

But, like everything else this game promises, that fanboi fervor is dialed up to 11.

[Hutch]

I'm with Jeff and Paelos. I want this to blow up, because until it does, we're stuck in this "It looks like a scam." rather than hard evidence of "It was a scam." If we're proven wrong, we're proven wrong. But experience in the games industry gives you the knowledge that something very, very wrong is happening here.

The only way you get "hard evidence" is if someone on the inside goes public with such.
Or, if the guy holding the money suddenly fucks off to NoExtraditionStan Island, in which case you can draw the same conclusion 

[lamaros]

A fool and their money are soon parted. If it isn't this it's something else. You guys are too easily offended.

It ain't that easy.

Firstly I hate victim blaming. Secondly you quite wrongfully assume that people who fall for such cons are less intelligent than you and that you - being more intelligent and wise in the ways of the world - are immune from falling victim to any con artists and their psychological tricks. Con artists are smart people and constantly devise better ways to get you by exploiting your personality flaws. Exploiting the arrogance of their victims is one way they get you.

Thirdly in the context of gambling and gambling-equivalent monetarization schemes like free to play gaming you're up against a whole team of behavioral psychologists and sociology majors that are employed to make the gameplay as addictive and 'compelling' as they possibly can. They have more people working on new ways to make you spend money than they have people that actually design and develop the game.

Destiny is a recent example of behavioral psychology finding its way into game design, even though it isn't (yet) a monetarization scheme. Just think about all of the 'Destiny is a disappointing game yet I can't stop playing' posts.

Just because there hasn't been anyone lately that tried to sell you a bridge in manhattan doesn't mean that you aren't constantly pressured and subtly manipulated to do things you don't want to do. Just go grocery shopping in a supermarket and you are at a place that has been designed by psychologists and shaped in a way to make you buy stuff you don't need.

So don't hate the people falling for such scams, hate the people that employ them. Especially when it could mean the end of games and could turn the whole business into basically designing more and more elaborate money extraction shemes.

Don't you have a crusade against something you have to go to?

You really do hate people picking on others, don't you?

Fuckwit.

[Trippy]

This thread is not in Politics...yet.