Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online

[LC]

Couldn't the same thing be said about any MOBA or FPS?

How much time is invested in a moba or fps when the game ends?

[Draegan]

I'm assuming you don't understand the draw for this kind of game. It's almost like a PVP version of a D&D campaign. Your character progression carries over, maybe some gear if you can save it, but the story always changes.

That's my best bad analogy.

[Falconeer]

PvPers don't play for the content. They play for the interactions. Interestingly, this is true not only for MMORPGs, but for any game that pits two or more humans against each other. Take games like chess, or sports. Repetition is a non-issue, as people who enjoy confronting other humans are into that way before anything else. Choosing one game over another is more a matter of choosing your weapons and community more than anything. That's why as Draegan pointed out MOBA and FPS. People have been playing these games for ages and investing years into them WAY before achievements, unlocks and character levels ever made their way into it.

Now, if you consider for a moment that Crowfall design is clearly meant to be persistent from the ground up, with only campaigns being temporary (as they are, in real wars), and with a huge focus on Diplomacy (as it was in Shadowbane and it is in EVE), I don't see the "one trick pony" argument having any validity.


So far the design of this game is surprisingly solid. The real, huge, make-it-or-break-it problem of this game will be execution.

[Draegan]

I've been discussing this for weeks, but the real key to the games design is the import/export rules. This creates transition for players that are both winning and losing. The winning team/player/faction/guild (it will vary depending on campaign) will always get something, but the loser may or may not.

I likened a Crowfall Campaign to WOW and without linking other shit on here, i'll keep it brief:
1) You have the boom cycle of the beginning of the expansion. Everyone is playing. Everyone is rushing. Everyone is exploring and theorycrafting and farming etc.
2) You have the mid section of the game. Population evens out, you do your own daily activities (farming, raiding, dungeoning whatever). You play the content.
3) People get bored and drift away
4) Expansion is announced, people log back in. People prepare for the new expansion, people are excited.

In WOW this is a 2 year cycle. In Crowfall, they need to be able to do this in 3-6 months. I think they can easily achieve 1-3, but #4 is the real real hard part and it has to do with import and export. If you're on the losing end of things, or in the middle and have no hope of winning. Or maybe you were doing well in the beginning but real life forced you away and you come back 2 months later, you need motivation to keep playing at the end of the cycle.

Some people will just play for the sake of playing. Hopefully the game is fun to play mechanically and the act of fighting and killing people is motivation enough. However most people need some kind of motivation. Crowfall will have to capture that "prep" cycle of the end of the campaign. You need to be able to convey "Welp I lost this campaign, let me get ready for the next one." into their design while still sticking to their import/export methodology.

[Nija]

You can armchair it all you want, but don't you find it interesting that the most successful city builder in Shadowbane (L-C) isn't interested in Crowfall at all? Maybe it's because he's accustomed to winning, so he doesn't see the point to a resetting campaign.

Here's what I think is going to happen, if anyone cares. Everyone interested in this kind of game already knows about Crowfall and probably has some skin in the game. They will play early builds, often, and by the time the thing actually releases only a small percentage of the people who are excited about it now will actually bother to play. Different genre, but look at H1Z1.

That's the trouble with crowdfunding/early alpha access.

[Threash]

Cheating isn't success.  And I find his disinterest in the game another plus.

[Paelos]

I can tell you right now that Mount and Blade is essentially the same game every time I charge into battle. Yet I still enjoy hacking heads. Over and over.

[Falconeer]

That's the trouble with crowdfunding/early alpha access.

I agree. By the time games are "officially launched" too many players out of the already small player base already went through some different stages of unfinished-ness and burned out over what was a much incomplete product. When it arguably reaches maturity, it has already lost too many players by diluting them through the infinitely long alpha phases.

[Draegan]

You can armchair it all you want, but don't you find it interesting that the most successful city builder in Shadowbane (L-C) isn't interested in Crowfall at all? Maybe it's because he's accustomed to winning, so he doesn't see the point to a resetting campaign.

I don't find it interesting. The person who likes building permanent shit doesn't want to play a game where his shit gets reset. I wouldn't expect that person to want to play this game regardless of what game he used to play a decade ago.

I can agree with the alpha burnout. It happens a lot. The games it has happened in, that I've personally played and witnessed, also have been games that weren't fun anyway. It's not a long shot to guess that it'll happen with Crowfall. I hope it doesn't but I wouldn't be surprised if does.

In any case, my theory isn't really arm chair dev, I'm just syaing they need to figure out a way to keep people engaged all the way to the end somehow. Especially for those people who aren't catassing or winning a lot. One way is Paelos' method. Just make the game itself fun to play mechanically.

[Draegan]

nm

[Nija]

Well, you guys are playing the forums. Playing the hype. Playing it all too early.

It's frustrating to watch because you know better than to get involved like this.

With as much time people are spent reading into every single word about this thing, there will actually be pre-pre-alpha burnout. That'll be new and novel, at least.

[Draegan]

Well, you guys are playing the forums. Playing the hype. Playing it all too early.

It's frustrating to watch because you know better than to get involved like this.

With as much time people are spent reading into every single word about this thing, there will actually be pre-pre-alpha burnout. That'll be new and novel, at least.

The hype cycle is the best part about these games.

[Triforcer]

You can upgrade pledges now on the website.  What is interesting is if you kickstarted, you can upgrade to a higher KS package, even if you put in only five dollars.  Non-KS can only upgrade a pledge to the non-KS tiers.

[LC]

Shadowbane beta wiped/reset at least 5 times after I was invited. Each time more and more people got tired of the grind to rebuild, and stopped playing. When release rolled around everyone came back, but even with a different map the interest wasn't there. There was a been there and done that feeling in our alliance. We wiped the major players on the server, and then most of us left the game. Nobody looked back.

It really depends on how much fun the "building phase" of their game is. If it's just a grind for materials, forget it, the game will be dead after a few resets.

Don't get too excited Threash. I will probably get dragged into the game by friends. The guys responsible for most of the "cheating" quit gaming years ago. I hear from them maybe once or twice a year.

[ezrast]

At the same time, the resetting campaign can also mean a really low barrier to re-entry for players who do come back. You can drift away for six months and then jump back in to a new campaign without having to spend weeks playing catch-up. Much like how Diablo 3's seasons or Path of Exile's leagues are easier to break into than Marvel Heroes' or Warframe's constantly-mutating (bloated) game systems.

[LC]

At the same time, the resetting campaign can also mean a really low barrier to re-entry for players who do come back. You can drift away for six months and then jump back in to a new campaign without having to spend weeks playing catch-up. Much like how Diablo 3's seasons or Path of Exile's leagues are easier to break into than Marvel Heroes' or Warframe's constantly-mutating (bloated) game systems.

That's true and it might find it's niche. I don't think it will be with the traditional mmo audience though.

[Bzalthek]

That's probably a good thing.  The traditional mmo audience is largely the worst thing about mmos these days.

[Falconeer]

New huge FAQ about Eternal Kingdoms. I'll put it under the spoiler tag, or you can just watch the official video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVQUNaSlT_o

[Hawkbit]

I can't help but see some top-level parallels to Xuri's tavern game with the way the kingdoms work. I'm interested.

[Triforcer]

It still all translates as "instanced housing". Not sure pvpers will really be motivated to amass loot to craft new end tables.

[Paelos]

So there will be a search function of some kind, which means that bigger kingdoms get priority. That explains why people would want to join a kingdom.

[Merusk]

It still all translates as "instanced housing". Not sure pvpers will really be motivated to amass loot to craft new end tables.

Whatever 'carebears' the game attracts will. They'll likely never leave the eternal kingdoms and work on being robber barons backed by other people's PVP power.  I just don't see a reason - other than the current unknown time factor - for those PVP folks to bother with letting them do so instead of running their own kingdom.

So there will be a search function of some kind, which means that bigger kingdoms get priority. That explains why people would want to join a kingdom.

Yep.

[Draegan]

It's really big instanced housing though.

[Paelos]

And markets. That's the key. If it's just housing nobody cares, if it's the point of sale and trade? Everyone cares.

[Threash]

Not when you can't actually use what you buy in campaigns.

[Malakili]

Not when you can't actually use what you buy in campaigns.

That assumes people will only care about campaigns.

[tazelbain]

So dumb...

Dear Killer, thanks for all your hard work killing people. Here have some items that are completely irrelevant to killing more people. You can place them in a paper kingdom that is irrelevant to killing people. Or you trade with other players to help expand your paper kingdom. Please enjoy all this not killing people content.

[Malakili]

So dumb...

Dear Killer, thanks for all your hard work killing people. Here have some items that are completely irrelevant to killing more people. You can place them in a paper kingdom that is irrelevant to killing people. Or you trade with other players to help expand your paper kingdom. Please enjoy all this not killing people content.

The campaigns aren't the whole thing.  That concentric circles diagram explains it, but there are different rulesets with different rules for importing/exporting gear.  I think the 3 faction PvP circle, for example, allows you to import gear.  So if you prefer that style as a killer you are golden for participating in the Eternal Kingdoms economy.  I don't think this is nearly as bad as you seem to think it is.

[Paelos]

So dumb...

Dear Killer, thanks for all your hard work killing people. Here have some items that are completely irrelevant to killing more people. You can place them in a paper kingdom that is irrelevant to killing people. Or you trade with other players to help expand your paper kingdom. Please enjoy all this not killing people content.

Right because Killers can't enjoy other things. They are only Killers.

[Bzalthek]

I think that's a roundabout way for tazelbain to confess to being a serial killer. 

[Torinak]

So dumb...

Dear Killer, thanks for all your hard work killing people. Here have some items that are completely irrelevant to killing more people. You can place them in a paper kingdom that is irrelevant to killing people. Or you trade with other players to help expand your paper kingdom. Please enjoy all this not killing people content.

Right because Killers can't enjoy other things. They are only Killers.

Well, they can complain about the carebears having any kind of "safe space" where they can't be ganked with impunity, most likely worded as there not being enough incentives for the sheepnon-PvP-inclined to spend significant time in the PvP areas. The carebears will complain about ever having to leave their gank-free zones, and will quit. The killers will complain about having to spend time not PKing (e.g., grinding resources, "going shopping"), and as the carebears quit, about not having enough targets. Cue death spiral.

Wait, didn't this happen in some other game?

[Falconeer]

Campaign modules FAQ:

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS | CAMPAIGN MODULES


1. WHAT DETERMINES THE RULES OF A CAMPAIGN?

There are many different options that have to be defined in order to determine the rules in each Campaign. The idea is that, at any time, there will be MANY Campaigns running in each of the “World Bands”, with new Campaigns constantly being brought online as old Campaigns come to an end. (The exact number of concurrent Campaigns will obviously depend on the size of our player population!)

When it comes to changes that can be made to the Campaigns, you can think of them as being broken into TWO major categories: ATTRIBUTES and MODULES.

Campaign Attributes:

Attributes are basically configuration settings.

There is a baseline set of Campaign rules that are common across all Campaigns. These attributes MUST be set in order to run a Campaign. Think of these as the simple (but highly impactful!) settings that are “dialed in” at the beginning of each Campaign. This includes settings like:

●        Map Size: How large is the world?

●        Duration: How long does each season last?  How long does the entire Campaign last?  What triggers the end of the Campaign?

●        Import/Export Rules: How much stuff can be brought in and out of the world, and when?

●        Magic Level: How powerful are the different types of magic?

●        Archetype Restrictions: Is this Campaign restricted to only certain archetypes?

●        Resource Scarcity: What is the population of resources available on this world, by type (common, uncommon, rare?)

●        Death Penalties: When a player dies, do their items decay?  If so, how much?  What are the looting rules on death?

Design Modules:

Modules are more complicated, self-contained rulesets.  These are more than just changes to the baseline configuration variables; they are “supplemental systems and content” that can be layered on top of the base Campaign rules to augment (or completely replace) existing systems.

(If you are an old-school tabletop gamer, think of these as supplemental rulesets, like the “Unearthed Arcana” rulebook for AD&D.  You can play the base game without them but, when included, they add additional rules and systems to make the game more interesting. You could also think of them as Game Mods, but it’s not a perfect comparison, as these are being created by ACE not by the player community.)

For example, in the future we could create modules that…

 -          Change the Siege rules (We’ve hinted at this already, with the announcement of the BaneCircle stretch goal!)

-          Add a new type of caravan -- like aerial transportation (Picture WoW-style gryphon rides, only with mounts that can be knocked out of the sky with projectiles!)

-          Add a “divine summoning” system, where a team can perform a complicated ritual to summon one of the Gods to wreak havoc on a Campaign world

…these systems could be added as supplemental Modules, overriding or augmenting the existing game rules in unique and crazy ways.

These modules can be used in any of the “World Bands” (i.e. God’s Reach, Dregs, etc.), though we expect that, in practice, they will often be restricted to one or two – as most of the ones we are thinking of are meant to augment a particular type of game experience.   

Modules allow us to make vastly different play experiences, even within Campaigns of the same type and will allows players to pick Campaigns that further suit their playstyle.

This system also allows our design team to take some risks and try out some ideas that would never be possible in a traditional MMO.  Settings that work (and are fun!) can be repeated, and ones that are not as much fun can be retired.


2. BETWEEN ATTRIBUTES AND MODULES, THAT’S A LOT OF OPTIONS! ARE THERE DEFAULT CAMPAIGN SETTINGS?

Absolutely!  This is what the “World Bands” are for. Generally, if you know the type of Campaign you enjoy, you can use the World Bands as a way to start your search.  The first question you should ask is, “What kind of team do I want to play on?” and start looking at Campaigns of the appropriate type.

Team selection rules will remain constant within a Band. (For example, the God’s Reach Campaigns will always use the 3-Faction Rules.)  Attributes and Modules can (and will!) change from one Campaign to the next, even within that Band.

For each Band, we will determine a default combination of Attributes (and modules) from the options available, and use that as a baseline for every Campaign in that Band.  Then we’ll vary those settings a bit for each new Campaign we create… and then we will track the popularity of that Campaign against all the others so that we adjust new Campaign settings accordingly. The idea is to figure out which combinations of Attributes and Modules are the most fun, learn from our mistakes, and use this process of trial-and-error to constantly improve the game.

Also note that these settings will be CLEARLY indicated prior to Campaign selection, so players will know what type of game they are getting into prior to joining.


3. HOW DO YOU FORESEE COMBATING QUEUE TIMES WITH SO MANY WORLD VARIABLES?

Crowfall is built using a responsive universe architecture that reacts to our playerbase. There will always be new Campaigns to join (as many Campaigns as our community supports!) From time to time, a specific combination of modifiers may not be initially available, (because there is a minimum population required to support a given World) but we will certainly give you the opportunity to “request” specific Campaigns (with a particular combination of Modules) and if enough players are interested, we are happy to host more Campaigns of that type!


4. WILL YOU BE TRYING OUT DIFFERENT ATTRIBUTES AND MODULES OVER TIME?

As long as we can continue to support the game service, yes!  We would love nothing better than to keeping adding new Attributes and trying out new Modules, as we believe this will keep the game fresh and innovative. In fact, it should make the game evolve over time, more than we have ever seen in an MMO.

[Tannhauser]

There's some good stuff in this, I'm cautiously optimistic.

[tmp]

It still all translates as "instanced housing". Not sure pvpers will really be motivated to amass loot to craft new end tables.

Depends on the table design they can get with all that killing work. Exclusive skulls and entrails arranged in classy patterns may be quite popular with certain crowds.

[Falconeer]

Some words on combat from the Devs.

That said, the "future" list isn't the most important list. The first and most critical feature that we need to tackle is: COMBAT. Specifically, PvP combat. Combat, as a system, actually encompasses a significant amount of functionality, functionality that we absolutely MUST nail first. 

Having a solid combat experience means we have a GREAT foundation on which we can build the rest of the game. The opposite is equally true: If the combat system sucks, then the rest of the game—campaigns, kingdoms, fealty trees, etc.—won't matter because no one will care.

Milestone 1 is laser-focused on the core Combat experience: movement, targeting, physics, animations and power chains. Not the content related to these systems or the game balance, just the systems themselves and the player's ability to interact with those systems. This will likely be the first of many such combat tests because it's highly doubtful we will nail it on our first try. (Technically, our second try since we've already rebuilt most of what you saw in the Kickstarter video.)