War

[Endie]

Um... you realize that all it says there is that Kugu managed to out a GM, but the player in question wasn't involved in any known malfeasance?

Now, the one thing that is a bit sketchy is that he was still on LV teamspeak as of this week...

I dunno... 78.5 billion and advising his corp to sell, sell, sell BPOs is pretty morally dubious to me.  And I really think that, while devs and GMs should play the game, there should be no way they are in strategic positions within their corps or alliances.  Sucks, but human nature has already been demonstrated on several occasions to be too given to indiscretions (BPOs and all-faction-fittted supership, for instances).

It looks like Enslaver was a different GM, but can anyone doubt that GM Sunshine, in particular, has a vested anti-coalition, and particularly anti-Goon interest?

[MahrinSkel]

The "Sell, Sell, Sell!" advice isn't particularly scandalous, and didn't require inside info, I was giving similar advice to Dark Shikari around the same time (one of the major plutocrats of Eve, and a member of my corp).  This *has* taken on witch-hunt properties, the "outing" of TheEnslaver served no purpose.  I genuinely believe that if you look deep into the leadership of all the major alliances, you're going to find developers (there are 750 CCP employees, want to bet that none of them are native russian or german speakers?).

That being said, T20 went way beyond the bounds, and it does shake confidence in the entire edifice that he was apparently so senior and effectively impossible to fire.

On the war itself, Sir Molle of BoB gives a good (if slightly slanted) briefing here.  The scale of this fight is staggerring, tens of thousands of players, trillions of isk.  The coalition is repeating their tactics against ISS (massive assault on multiple fronts), but against BoB it's not working as well.  And both sides have uncommitted reserves, RedSwarm is currently occupied with LV (although the goons made a showing) while the southern tenants have not been engaged.

In many ways, the coalition picked the wrong place to make their push.  Sure, Querious and Fountain both border on Empire space which makes them more reachable for logistics when you're coming from the north, but they also both border Delve, giving BoB the advantage of interior lines (it takes fewer hops to take capitals or fleets from Fountain to Querious via Delve than through Empire).  And the police alliances of both regions are thoroughly dug in and used to fighting against superior numbers.  Both have enough strength to contest the assaults and turn them into a fight, which leaves BoB able to hop from one to the other for classic defeat in detail.

The question is if the coalition is going to reinforce failure and make a renewed push in the southwest (where things are currently back to the status quo ante), and if RedSwarm is going to *also* travel 30 jumps to support that.  The only member of the coalition currently operating close to home is AAA, and it's costing the coalition dearly.

--Dave

[tmp]

Inaccurate, if anything.
Accurate, if anything.

Fixed that for you.

Afraid you didn't. The allegation I was addressing was "GM gives insider info regarding BPO" while the player in question gave the advice in question *before* he was hired (the post was made around December, player was hired in January) In other words it wasn't GM giving insider info but then-player-now-GM talking with other players about game mechanics.

[Yoru]

From what I've heard, LV is basically wiped out. Their last stations have their days numbered and are being swarmed. There's also ops against RISE (one of the southern BoB tenants) being run on a daily basis, although I have no idea what their numbers, purpose and efficacy are.

The real fight is going to come to BoB probably in another few weeks. The question is whether D2 can maintain the stalemate of attrition for that long.

[Endie]

Inaccurate, if anything.
Accurate, if anything.

Fixed that for you.

Afraid you didn't. The allegation I was addressing was "GM gives insider info regarding BPO" while the player in question gave the advice in question *before* he was hired (the post was made around December, player was hired in January) In other words it wasn't GM giving insider info but then-player-now-GM talking with other players about game mechanics.

Impressive that you know the dates of those posts since I understood that they're from LV forums and I know they're not dated on Kugutsumen's blog.  Are you an LV member (might be worth mentioning that by way of a declaration of interest!  Would tend to skew things (while explaining your consistent posting record)) or is there another source posting this stuff?  That would be interesting, too, if you have a linky?

The "Sell, Sell, Sell!" advice isn't particularly scandalous, and didn't require inside info

More balanced view, Mahrin, yep.  In fact, I agree with you that it's insufficient proof of malfeasance by itself.  It smells bad, especially coming on top of the t20 stuff as you rightly say, but I doubt if anyone would seriously expect more than a character rename.

The question is if the coalition is going to reinforce failure and make a renewed push in the southwest (where things are currently back to the status quo ante), and if RedSwarm is going to *also* travel 30 jumps to support that.  The only member of the coalition currently operating close to home is AAA, and it's costing the coalition dearly.

I'll bet that they push somewhere that requires BoB to stretch its resources to defend.  Beyond that, who knows?  The Mittani  ?

AAA is not part of the coalition, by the way.  As I understand it, and as mentioned in both Eve Tribune and one of the official Eve-Online login page posts, they withdrew and are operating in an independent capacity vs Bob & Slaves.

[tmp]

Impressive that you know the dates of those posts since I understood that they're from LV forums and I know they're not dated on Kugutsumen's blog.  Are you an LV member (might be worth mentioning that by way of a declaration of interest!  Would tend to skew things (while explaining your consistent posting record)) or is there another source posting this stuff?  That would be interesting, too, if you have a linky?

No, I'm not LV member nor I have the access to their forums, but complete version of the post including the date was made public in similar thread that goes on the FoH board 

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/27167-eve-bob-lv-vs-south-east-74.html#post677107

[Endie]

No, I'm not LV member nor I have the access to their forums, but complete version of the post including the date was made public in similar thread that goes on the FoH board 

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/27167-eve-bob-lv-vs-south-east-74.html#post677107

Nice one, ta!

[Comstar]

Well, I have one prediction: RISE won't slow down the Goonswarm for long. I can't see BoB being able to help them anymore than they helped LV. RISE will slow down the train, but only in the time taken to move through them, and the logestics of moving the front eastward as it outruns it's supply lines.

So long as D2 and Co can keep BoB busy. Interior lines only works if you're not under attack from multiple fronts quicker than you can move your forces around, and Molle's post flat out states that too.

I also wounder how FIX would be going if there were being attacked by IAC and friends from the East, which right now, we arn't, despite having a station only 4 jumps from Queroius. Though that might be Gunboat Diplomacy near us, not FIX itself.

[MahrinSkel]

This is the drawback of the BoB system: Each tenant cares only about their own patch.  You want Feythobolis?  FIX isn't going to care, hell, FoFF probably isn't going to care much and they're in the next region over.  Where an attack on 9CG is a knife to our throat and ED- is aimed at our heart, and we'll pull out all the stops to defend them, attacks on BoB holdings further out are completely BoB's problem as far as we are concerned, worth participating in only to wring concessions from BoB on something else.  This is why I said Q and Fountain weren't the best places to attack, where RISE and FoFF are recently installed and have serious growth issues, FIX and Xelas have been in their patch for a long time (years in FIX's case, it's the oldest surviving alliance).

Treating the BoB police alliances with contempt is a diplomatic mistake.  They're not simply pets, coming and going at BoB's beck and call, and if they thought they had a survivability option separate from BoB that didn't involve turning their coat and attacking BoB, they'd be likely to take it.  In the end, as long as they retain docking rights, it doesn't matter to the residents of BoB space what color it is painted on the Alliance map (and for many of them, the chance to put their own patch on it in the wake of the hostilities would be attractive).

--Dave

[Comstar]

I also wounder how FIX would be going if there were being attacked by IAC and friends from the East, which right now, we arn't, despite having a station only 4 jumps from Queroius. Though that might be Gunboat Diplomacy near us, not FIX itself.

I should keep my shut: the day I post this, a BoB/FIX(?) fleet shows up in FAT and puts all POS's into reinforced mode an hour after I log off. The came, the shot, they left(?).

IAC is now the 2nd biggest allience after Goonfleet...But not nearly as powerful econmically or militarllry, it's more a fact of LV/CA/ISS dropping off the top of the table, and some large corps joining recently (BIG being the...err..biggest, and they are quite powerful econmically).

[MahrinSkel]

Thank your friends in RAT.  The LS- POS was a no-no.  But although some FIXians may have been present, it was a BoB operation.  Don't rattle sabers in their direction unless you're serious, they're a little jumpy right now.

Frankly, IAC reminds me very much of Huzzah, and if it's not careful it will suffer a similar fate.  That much growth across that much territory that fast is very hard to handle.  And western Catch is a freaking nightmare to try and keep a handle on in general (AAA never did a very good job of that, I used the back road through FAT for most of my transport runs during both Prohibitions, easier than dealing with HED).  AAA has excellent skills at fleet battles, but actually holding down territory bores them to tears, which is probably why they gave it all to you.  Conquering it is fun, using and protecting it, not so much.

Gunboat Diplomacy has an exclusive on the H74 area, if you want to teach them a lesson about what 0.0 territorial ownership means, be my guest.

--Dave

[Simond]

More weekend news: M.Corp has left LV. Aside from the political implications, this also means that any M. Corp POSes are now no longer generationg sovereignty claims for LV.

[Comstar]

Well we've nearly finished in FAT. BoB and Co havn't shown up. An Outbreak gang got Titaned by AAA and cleaned up by the IAC fleet on the way from F4 to FAT.

[Simond]

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=486825
They didn't want those stations anyway. 

[Miasma]

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=486825
They didn't want those stations anyway. 

I have never seen such heavy handed moderation before, by the fourth page at least a third of the posts were molested in some way.

[Fordel]

The Official EVE boards have always been retarded about moderation, not even so much the harshness or lack of it, but simply the consistency of what and who gets modded and who doesn't.

You can get one thread with everyone calling each other cock goblins and no one seems to mind, the thread right below it though will be nothing but *snip deleted*.


So where did LV end up going? Stain? Seems like they got most of their assets out.

[Raging Turtle]

I'm curious about that myself - Is BoB taking LV in, or are they simply scattered?

[tmp]

I have never seen such heavy handed moderation before, by the fourth page at least a third of the posts were molested in some way.

There is a rule in CAOD forum section which prohibits from posting people with no visible player corporation/alliance tag in their profile. This was established due to literally years of "noob corp" alt posting, usually to troll and/or flame. So posts from such characters are deleted now no matter the content.

The smaller edits are result of one side of conflict insisting on calling themselves "the rapetrain". Hardly wonder it doesn't fly well with the mods.

[Yoru]

I'm curious about that myself - Is BoB taking LV in, or are they simply scattered?

Private and public statements late last week indicated a move to Stain. However, lots of corps have left LV, so there's something of a diaspora. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them joined the BoB Protectorates.

But.. Ladies and Geeeentlemeeeen.. it's time for the Main Event! The reigning champeen, BoB (and company), versus the Challenger, a Drunken Swarm of Red Bees. And some dogs with bees in their mouths and when they bark they shoot bees at you.

This is going to be fun. :-D

[Endie]

The smaller edits are result of one side of conflict insisting on calling themselves "the rapetrain". Hardly wonder it doesn't fly well with the mods.

Yep, it would be kinda odd if that got through the filter.  A lot are also due to the immediate censoring of anything that suggests that BoB might have had the slightest brush with developers.  BoD and Band of Developers is modded, for instance, though some clever obfuscation still gets the needling through, occasionally.

[tmp]

In quite unexpected move, former allies of D2 from north-western part of map declare war on them and the rest of coalition, allying themselves with BoB:

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=487204

[Simond]

In a slightly less unexpected move, D2 offered Youwhat's collective head on a platter to the Goons.
History: the XZH system was the site of the ill-fated Goon incursion last summer, where D2 fought the Goons back while YouWhat hid in stations. :D

[Morat20]

In quite unexpected move, former allies of D2 from north-western part of map declare war on them and the rest of coalition, allying themselves with BoB:

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=487204

If it's the corp I'm thinking of, rumor on FOH is they did that because D2 was promising their territory to the Goons, and they felt that was a Bad Idea. (EVE's forums aren't loading for me at the moment, so I can't check).

[Raging Turtle]

That makes no sense. Atm Goons have more space than they know what to do with.

[tmp]

That makes no sense. Atm Goons have more space than they know what to do with.

I'd think so too, so if that reason is actually true this is quite a "wtf was D2 thinking" moment 

[Morat20]

That makes no sense. Atm Goons have more space than they know what to do with.

I'd think so too, so if that reason is actually true this is quite a "wtf was D2 thinking" moment 

I might be remembering who D2 promised the space to wrong. I was skimming and am too lazy to go back and look.

[Fordel]

It was probably a deal made long before Goons displaced LV and I'm guessing YouWhat just found out about recently. They probably didn't like their space being offered away ;)



I guess the better question about LV isn't where they went, but where did their capital fleet go? It surely wasn't entirely kersploded in the war, and it was(is) fairly large.

What happens if the majority of the LV capital fleet ends up with BoB+MC's? Mother of all cap fleets all contained within a fortress region of delve/period basis (and Querious I suppose?). That would be like 3+ titans, would it not? Plus at least half a dozen motherships and buckets of carriers and dreads.


Does the coalition have anything that could go toe to toe with the BoB+Friends mega fleet?

[tmp]

Does the coalition have anything that could go toe to toe with the BoB+Friends mega fleet?

It's probably moot point because the servers won't be able to cope with engagement at this scale packed onto single node anyway...

[MahrinSkel]

Querious is a tough nut, the ED- station is probably one of the most defensible in 0.0 (close to empire for easy emergency logistics, low moon counts for both it and the 3-F system which is the only one you have to transit to reach empire which makes it hard to operate if your numbers aren't totally overwhelming and leaves you vulnerable for drivebys).  And FIX's military doctrine is *designed* for being massively outnumbered, our core leadership was tempered in the CODA war, when we were always outnumbered.  Our capital ship fleet is heavily tilted towards carriers, and we've probably used fighter-bombing tactics more than everyone else in the game combined. The force that couldn't take ED- and 9CG was the same size as the one that did tear apart LV in the same span, although not nearly as coherent.  Add in that ED- is our only station so it's a matter of survival for us to hold it, and you get what happened recently.

The really wierd thing is the way that the northern alliances actually *believe* the anti-BoB propaganda.  Not just the "Band of Developers" stuff, which if true would mean they had not the slightest chance of success, but the "BoB pets are being oppressed and exploited" crap, which if true would have us falling all over ourselves to cut deals.  Of course, if the enemy leaders actually believed it, they wouldn't treat us with such public contempt and force us into ever tighter relationships of mutual survival.  It's pure posturing straight out of the military and political history textbooks, and it's fascinating to watch.

--Dave

[Sparky]

The YouWhat alliance leader has always had a hate-on for the goons after we got him a two week ban from the game for abusing the petition system.  We had his dread locked down facing certain doom at a goon POS then he logged and sent a stuck petition to have his ship moved out of the system.  Once we realised what happened it was petitioned, we didn't see him log in for a while then other YouWhat members confirmed he was banned in one of the many eve-o GOONIELAGSPLOITSTBH threads.

I think he was enraged by the D2/Goonswarm alliance of convenience and didn't need much inducement from BoB.  Dumb move though, his alliance will lose all it's space very soon when they could've sat the war out then cosy up to the victor.

[Fordel]

Didn't the goons have something around 100+ pilots in YouWhat's space within a few hours of their announcement?

[Endie]

The really wierd thing is the way that the northern alliances actually *believe* the anti-BoB propaganda.  Not just the "Band of Developers" stuff, which if true would mean they had not the slightest chance of success

I think most people I've heard have been of the opinion that BoB had significant, although often tacit, developer and GM assistance, but that that is no longer the case to any significant degree (beyond marginal cases like GM Sunshine).  It's a matter of suspecting weakness rather than strength.

the "BoB pets are being oppressed and exploited" crap, which if true would have us falling all over ourselves to cut deals. 

I've barely heard that opinion expressed, and I trawl the CAOD boards (and Scrapheap, and SA etc..) boards all the time.  What I have heard, drearily often, is that BoB pets are riddled with Bob alts, are spied on heavily enough by their "masters" to make the chance of them even staying neutral for a sane deal absolutely zero, and have made their choice so must now live with it.

[MahrinSkel]

See, this is the problem with propaganda campaigns: Eventually, the people using it start to believe their own propaganda.

To understand BoB, you only have to understand this: Starting more than 2 years ago, BoB set out to make itself an imperial power.  Not just to hold territory, but to remake it's own culture into that of a martial aristocracy.  Regardless of whether they really were the best combatants in Eve when they started, they've made it true by recruiting the best PvP'ers in Eve and agressively refining their tactics.  They didn't just beat ASCN, they beat them like a drum while outnumbered and outspent by more than 3 to 1.

To understand the BoB tenants, you only have to understand one thing: BoB goes to alliances that have little or nothing but desire, and offers them deals that BoB *scrupulously* abides by.  Deals that are much better than those alliances are in a position to demand, good enough then when the alliances are stronger they don't feel constricted or exploited by the arrangement.

FIX was *this* close (imagine holding fingers a hairs breadth apart) to completely dead at the end of CODA.  BoB could have imposed stringent terms, demanded tribute, rubbed our nose in our powerlessness, and if we'd refused they would have had little trouble finding another alliance of equal or greater capability (FIX was down to less than 400 members at that point, had a total capital ship muster of maybe 4 dreadnoughts and no carriers, and was flat broke as both an alliance and individuals) that would have been willing to take the deal.  But they offered us a safe harbour in which to rebuild, under terms that were quite acceptable (no tribute, no rent, no mandatory military commitments beyond keeping raiders out of Querious, something we would need to do anyway).

I don't know the details of the other BoB police alliance's deals, but they are probably similar.  CAOD throws around rhetoric about us paying tribute, not owning stations, and so on, but the fact is that these things are simply not accurate.  There *are* "renter" corps and alliances who pay tribute, have tight restrictions on where they are allowed to mine, rat, and so on, but they are non-militaristic "carebear" outfits.

BoB respects military prowess.  BoB respects bravery, determination, and all the other traditional martial virtues.  Determination and honor is the grounds for their respect for FIX, it's nearly as much a fetish to us as combat skill is to them.

As for spies, BoB may be the only alliance in Eve that doesn't have spies in FIX.  We're the oldest surviving territorial alliance, we've had a very long time to get penetrated by everyone who ever wanted to.  But they don't *need* them, there are more than 200 FIX alumni in BoB, good old-fashioned rumor mill would tell them everything.  In fact, of all the things in the FIX/BoB relationship, our biggest problem is the way they are draining our PvP talent.  That's not any kind of BoB exploitation, that's hardcore PvP'ers wanting to be in an alliance full of like-minded players.  But FIX has always trained up some of the best PvP'ers in Eve, only to lose them for various reasons tied to the tensions between PvP'ers and industrialists.  Outbreak, PURE, and ESA are all the product of FIXian diasporas.

Quite frankly, much of this stuff that is thrown around is so contrary to fact, or so exaggerated, it only makes sense to me as over-compensation for discomfort over the various smaller alliances relationship towards their own major power.  Where FIX, Xelas, etc., all have explicit deals with BoB and high confidence those deals will be honored, everyone else looks to either D2 or RA with a great deal of discomfort.  It's nice to have them as allies when the target is someone else, but when they make demands, you have to give.  And sooner or later, when the board has simplified enough and there is no external enemy to threaten them, they'll demand everything.

Is BoB inherently "better" in a moral sense?  Well, I don't know much about D2, although what I've seen indicates they're nowhere near as reliable in their honesty.  But the RedSwarm success is built on the goonies "I shit on your game" attitude and RA's bottomless wallet from the systematic exploitation of bugged complex spawns over a period of years, so there I would say it's not much of a contest.

--Dave

[Sparky]

I dunno, BoBs terms sound pretty bad to me.  You have to split your corps pure carebear or PVP, aren't allowed to place your own buy orders for minerals(so basically you are mining slaves) and pay 300mil a week for the privilege.  However you do get what formally looked like secure space brought to 0.0, which I'm sure was attractive to a lot of people. 

Is BoB inherently "better" in a moral sense?  Well, I don't know much about D2, although what I've seen indicates they're nowhere near as reliable in their honesty.  But the RedSwarm success is built on the goonies "I shit on your game" attitude and RA's bottomless wallet from the systematic exploitation of bugged complex spawns over a period of years, so there I would say it's not much of a contest.

I look at it this way, if BoB soundly wins this war they're never going to lose one.  It's highly unlikely we'll get another anti-BoB "perfect storm" bandwagon of this size.  Now if BoB is a true hegemon then they can go about their plan as state on kugutsumen of taking over most of 0.0 and installing their pets.  Suddenly Eve's political landscape starts to look monochrome.  It would be as bad for the game if Redswarm or D2 was a towering colossus.  Maybe I'm being hysterical, heh.

[Endie]

Massive, ranting screed of straw-man construction mixed in with hagiobobgraphy.

Erm, you never really quite say what it is you are disagreeing with, just make wild, arm-flinging statements about people "believing their own propaganda" and "throwing stuff around".  Were you disagreeing with me?  What bit?  All I said is that what I kept reading as justification was past dev involvement in a game-rule-breaking way with BoB (absolutely true, and proven as such, although I didn't say I agreed with it in my post) and that Fix, Xelas, MC etc were penetrated by Bob alts and spies (again, I didn't state this as my opinion, but it would be amazing if they were not, given that their enemies certainly are).

You don't need to justify yourself yet again here with the same old "Fix's relationship with BoB is more complex than that!" thing.  Really.  The bit I agree with is that you have, indeed, made your bed now.  Who knows?  maybe you'll win out.  Not where my money is, but always possible if BoB's metagame is better than the Mittani's.