LOTRO now the second fastest-selling online-only PC title after WoW

[Nija]

Says the man who plays World of Warcraft. Plays a lot.
And no, this is a BETTER version of World of Warcraft.

You'd think you would learn from the Vanguard fanboyisms.

Just stop. Stop right now. Think of the children.

Otherwise, you have a bright future ahead of you in gay porn. As much as you have your feet in your mouth you'll have no trouble with a bundle of 'bama blacksnakes.

[Ixxit]

oops..WTF

[Ixxit]

P.S (EDIT): My signature stands for my sins and mistakes of the past. Yes, I was so wrong.

Falconeer, how come you feel the need to apologize or back off your previous statements.  First Vanguard, now you only like Lotro but with caveats (it's not a great game, only slightly better than WoW)?   Obviously both Vanguard and Lotro have unique features for whatever reason you liked at the time.  How can you be wrong for liking them.

Yeah, you're enthusiastic about games who cares; it's a lot better than being so jaded that you can't garner pleasure from even the best the genre has to offer.

Not trying to give you a hard time, just saying that you don't need to flip flop and/or give hesitant or  highly qualified  praise.

[Numtini]

I agree with most of what Falconeer says.

What isn't said is that there are a lot of bugs. Not sb.exe or SWG levels of bugs. But there are bugs. And they will affect your gameplay. The economy isn't as refined. The AH interface is a disaster. The world is smaller--probably too small. There is no "end game" so if you hit 50, the game's over until they release something new. While not Vanguard, it's taxing on low end systems and has some odd quirky video bugs that cause stuttering on systems that could play vanguard with ease. Those are some pretty big points in WOW's favor.

However, the big selling point on LOTRO as compared to WOW is that it isn't WOW. While the Blizzard baiting gets tired after a while, on various LOTRO forums WOW is synonymous for immature and the lotro community is friendly and very helpful. And there are a lot of people who don't want rush to 50 then raid type of gameplay and resent Blizzard catering to it.

Honestly neither game holds a candle to today's EQ2. But the LOTRO kinship I happened up on is probably the best guild I've ever been in ever and I'm ahead of the level curve for the first time in my life. Those are compelling reasons for me personally to play LOTRO.

[Falconeer]

I'll  be brief and I won't go on on this to avoid Geldonism.

1) I don't usually apologize for my opinion as I am often right, as everyone else here is, I am sure (heh). When I am blatantly wrong, I can't keep on a straight face. That's it.

2) LoTRO is a good game. Not exactly MY kind of game and far from being a perfect game or simply a great DIKU. I'd say it's more a nice CRPG with a wonderful world than the usual fantasy mmorpg, and that's probably why I think it's better than WoW, which was unable to add any fun to the kind I had playing EQ years before.
This is why, while enjoying some of it now, I can talk good about it without stumbling in the fanboi zone.

My effort and my involvement with Vanguard and LoTRO is completely different, and I don't think there'll ever be anything I said worth an apology about LoTRO.

Numtini, a quick note: I am surprised you feel the world as small. While there are just 8 or so zones, they feel so big and diverse that I actually perceived the world as very big. Thinking about Fornost, or Old Forest, or Barrows Down, which map-wise are just very small parts of a single zone, I felt that they alone were big enough to be standalone zones in other games.

[Numtini]

I agree with you there, in fact I'd forgotten the old forest/barrows wasn't a separate zone from the rest of Bree.

I was thinking in terms of how much there is to do and replayability. From my viewpoint at 27, it looks to me like there's basically one track to level. In WOW and to a lesser extent EQ2 I always felt I had multiple options.

[Ironwood]

Fuckall y'all.

[Falconeer]

IFrom my viewpoint at 27, it looks to me like there's basically one track to level. In WOW and to a lesser extent EQ2 I always felt I had multiple options.

And I agree with you on that. I guess it's the consequence of being so strongly story-driven, and that, combined with the extreme solo friendliness, is why I see and play it more like a typical CRPG than a MMORPG.

[CmdrSlack]

IFrom my viewpoint at 27, it looks to me like there's basically one track to level. In WOW and to a lesser extent EQ2 I always felt I had multiple options.

And I agree with you on that. I guess it's the consequence of being so strongly story-driven, and that, combined with the extreme solo friendliness, is why I see and play it more like a typical CRPG than a MMORPG.

I'm at 24 and I have yet to finish up a bunch of various things in all kinds of areas...heck, I'm already getting the feeling that I'm about to get my first "out of the Lone Lands" quest soon.  I have yet to do any of the stuff up at Trestlebridge in the North Downs.  I still need to get all of the Great Barrows quests done, besides Purging the Dead and Collecting History (the one where you grab 10 chalices).  I need to finish up some exploration traits in Breeland, etc.  If anything, I almost feel like there's too much to do...heck, I'd like to head over to the Shire and grab some of the fun titles (Brewmaster, Quick Post, the Pie ones, etc.) and a couple of traits that'll level the ones I use the most. 

Maybe things'll change drastically pretty soon, but I'm about to clear out all of my blue and white quests in the Lone Lands and then see if I can weather some of the North Downs content.  I'm hoping to be levelling into the Shores of Evendim stuff, so that I can just grab that and see that portion of the world.  Apparently, part of the big June patch is meant to add some much-needed solo content for the 30s.

[Endie]

I like Lotro.  I'm not head-over-heels - I play Eve just as much - but I like it plenty (when the Euro servers are up).

I really like the storyline quests.  It gives it a bit of a Baldur's Gate feel that this thread is continuing rather than Wow's shorter questlines (in general: the shaman line were kinda fun for a while in WoW for much the same reason).   And, being a Bartle-Explorer, I love the huge zones.  I've been lost a few times, and stumbled into scarily high places, usually involving wights.  The Old Forest is cool: a real maze that rewards being able to recognise individual trees and hillocks.  What this place will be like in a few years when a journey from the Ered Luin might lead to the Lonely Mountain, or Rhun, or Osgiliath, or Haradwaith, or Belfalas is exciting.  Having seen the gorgeous architecture and layout of the opening dungeon for dwarves' and elves' signature quests, I can't wait to see Moria.

I feel less railroaded.  I had a quest leading me to Bree from the Ered Luin at about level 10, and thought "here we go, the quests will disappear now", as would be the case in efficiently-structured WoW.  But it's not like that.  I can go to Bree if I like (and I did, just to see stuff), but I can also stay where I am, and still have tons of quests.  Like Darniaq mentioned: it's messy and unstreamlined and just more... natural.

[Arthur_Parker]

I'm at 24 and I have yet to finish up a bunch of various things in all kinds of areas...heck, I'm already getting the feeling that I'm about to get my first "out of the Lone Lands" quest soon.  I have yet to do any of the stuff up at Trestlebridge in the North Downs. 

North Downs is the best zone in the game once you hit level 23 right up to the early 30's, I hated the lone lands.

[CmdrSlack]

I'm at 24 and I have yet to finish up a bunch of various things in all kinds of areas...heck, I'm already getting the feeling that I'm about to get my first "out of the Lone Lands" quest soon.  I have yet to do any of the stuff up at Trestlebridge in the North Downs.

North Downs is the best zone in the game once you hit level 23 right up to the early 30's, I hated the lone lands.

Guess it's off to N. Downs then.  Thanks!

[Cheddar]

P.S (EDIT): My signature stands for my sins and mistakes of the past. Yes, I was so wrong.

Falconeer, how come you feel the need to apologize or back off your previous statements.  First Vanguard, now you only like Lotro but with caveats (it's not a great game, only slightly better than WoW)?   Obviously both Vanguard and Lotro have unique features for whatever reason you liked at the time.  How can you be wrong for liking them.

Yeah, you're enthusiastic about games who cares; it's a lot better than being so jaded that you can't garner pleasure from even the best the genre has to offer.

Not trying to give you a hard time, just saying that you don't need to flip flop and/or give hesitant or  highly qualified  praise.

Hey, douche.  Part of critical thinking and having a decent debate/discussion is admitting when one is/was wrong.  Also helps with rational discourse. 

Asshat.  One of the major problems around here is people engage in mob lust without attempting any sort of discourse.  MOB LUST.  Mob lust, heh, I kinda like that term.

mob lust.

[Venkman]

There's actually not a lot of mob lust, because it gets shouted down big. That's why it's so easy to see.

Falc, you don't need to keep apologizing. We get ya, because we've all been there.

LoTRO is a great game with room to grow. Back to the "messy" thing. WoW's polish puts people on rails. LoTRO's messiness allows for some player creativity. This is an important element to online worlds in my mind.

The best method of retention isn't what you hoard of rewards gotten along the way. It's how much choice you think you had along the way.

The questing is superior to WoW in quantity. WoW has some real quality storylines, but LoTRO has a hell of a lot more of them. Even the crappy kill X quests are parts of storylines. Makes it harder for people to catch up, but the counterbalance is immersion through lore. I'd rather have a lot of good quests that are hard for people to catch up to their friends on than a bunch of one-off forgettable nonsense there to keep people together. This is because most players want to either occasionally or mostly solo but with the opportunity to group now and again.

I agree the endgame is likely an issue. It's the classic EQ1 problem, seen again in everything that's come since. No matter the races and class variety, no matter the breadth and depth of quests, no matter the side activities, all players funnel to the same few endgame activities. It becomes harder to be compelled to do that again and again unless you like that endgame, because even if you start as a different race, you'll hit repetition at some point.

[Endie]

Falc, you don't need to keep apologizing. We get ya, because we've all been there.

Isn't that the truth? I am pretty glad that I didn't post on here when SWG launched.  It would have been embarassing to have that on the record: "oooh, AT-ATs... stormtroopers... Krayts... bone armour!"  Well, maybe not that last one.

[Endie]

I should have posted this at the end of last week, I suppose.  Looks like, contrary to expectations, the trend actually remained pretty decent:

"10th May, 2007 - Today, Turbine, Inc., Midway Games Inc. and Codemasters Online Gaming announced that The Lord of the Rings Online™: Shadows of Angmar™ is the #1 selling PC title across North America and Europe based on the most recent industry reports. The Lord of the Rings Online has outsold all other PC games across North America, Germany, United Kingdom and France according to data from NPD (NA), Chart-Track (UK), GfK (France) and Media Control (Germany)."

[Ixxit]

Hey, douche.  Part of critical thinking and having a decent debate/discussion is admitting when one is/was wrong.  Also helps with rational discourse. 

Asshat.  One of the major problems around here is people engage in mob lust without attempting any sort of discourse.  MOB LUST.  Mob lust, heh, I kinda like that term.

mob lust.

Hmm,  that is exactly why he shouldn't have to tiptoe around for fear of ridicule.  He's got a valid  opinion, just like anyone else. 

Oh, and while you are  flippantly throwing around obscenities, why don't you bend over grab your ankles and tea bag yourself.   


[EDIT]

Just to clarify:  I like Falconeer's posts.  They are detailed and informative, and he obviously has a lot of experience with variety of different games.   He talks facts when giving his opinion.  He is also very enthusiastic about the things he's talking about, which I will reiterate is a breath of fresh air. 

My initial post was entirely about him to contining to post his thoughts  about the various games he plays without feeling the need to apologize  for being enthusiastic, or tempering his opinions   because people are going to keep throwing Vanguard in his face. 

Cheers.

[Oban]

Is it possible to buy this online (digital download) as of yet?

[Zodiac]

Is it possible to buy this online (digital download) as of yet?

Not right now :(

[Darkgar]

I play it, but its just...cool.  Not great but cool.

It all depends on how well they do the June X-Pac.

Yes the market is weird. People rampantly undercut everything so you are mostly better off vendoring everything you find, yet lowbie heal pots sell like hotcakes.  It will be some time before things settle.

[Nebu]

I play it, but its just...cool.  Not great but cool.

Explain this one to me.  I played two toons to the 30's in beta and the word that came to my mind was "bland" not "cool".  What is it that you find so interesting or "cool" about this title that you haven't found elsewhere?  Other than the world itself, there wasn't much that I found memorable.

[Endie]

I play it, but its just...cool.  Not great but cool.

Explain this one to me.  I played two toons to the 30's in beta and the word that came to my mind was "bland" not "cool".  What is it that you find so interesting or "cool" about this title that you haven't found elsewhere?  Other than the world itself, there wasn't much that I found memorable.

There's been quite a lot of debate on this one in various thread already, but at the risk of kicking it all off again, the world is obviously a big thing.  You can't just say "other than the world itself", as I'd probably have soldiered through a bunch of levels even with Vanguard if it was set in as good a world.

The graphical style is superb at decently high settings, with forests in particular brilliantly done.  I love the fact that I have been lost a number of times, whether in the Old Forest or just the Low Lands.  The scripted starter dungeon in the level 5 signature quest for elves was more attractive and fun than anything I have seen in WoW, with a brilliant use of scope and scale and distance which really has me excited about how Moria will look.

The storyline series of quests is cracking: it really makes me feel like I am playing a more single-character type of RPG thing, with a developing world (sure, an illusion at current tech, but that's how it feels) and a story that grows with me. That said, even the fedex-style quests - of which I've only done about four or five in pushing 20 levels - just seem well written.  There are a lot of quests - a lot - which is great: I love that getting the "travel to Bree/Thorin's Halls/Wherever" quest from an NPC doesn't mean "the quests will run out any minute."  It's not that over-designed and hyper-efficient.

There's more, and I have a few criticisms too, but others will no doubt be quick to point those out.

[Nebu]

Fair enough.  I have never been interested in story-driven gameplay.  If I want a story, I'll grab a book.  When I'm in a game, I want to play the game. 

I was impressed by the world and the visuals, but it all seemed too condensed.  It had no "world" feel to it at all since I could easily travel a couple of minutes and be someplace new.  I realize that lengthy travel times are a turnoff to most players, but they do give value to regional trade as well as the expansiveness of things.  The quests also felt a bit too much like everything I'd been through... and the zoning into buildings... ugh.  Talk about cumbersome.  Poorly implemented crafting, contrived classes, and a lack of magic also stifled what could have been a fun aspect for me as well.  It's just a preference/taste thing and I can certainly appreciate why some would enjoy this game for the setting alone. 

[Falconeer]

I play it, but its just...cool.  Not great but cool.

Explain this one to me.  I played two toons to the 30's in beta and the word that came to my mind was "bland" not "cool".  What is it that you find so interesting or "cool" about this title that you haven't found elsewhere?  Other than the world itself, there wasn't much that I found memorable.

Cool:

* World
* Storylines and scripted stuff
* Graphics / Visuals
* It's a well crafted diku

Uncool:

* Unresponsive combat
* It's just another diku

All the rest could stand in the middle but as you can see, the cools overlap the uncools.
Anyway, in my book cool is not superb.

[Falconeer]

... but it all seemed too condensed.  It had no "world" feel to it at all since I could easily travel a couple of minutes and be someplace new.  I realize that lengthy travel times are a turnoff to most players, but they do give value to regional trade as well as the expansiveness of things. ...

It's true that there are villages that are just 2 mins by each other, but on the other hand the world is anything but small. In fact, and this is surprising to me, traveling is incredibly slow and to get from Ost Guruth, far east in the Lonelands to Esteldin, in North Downs (two very important centres for questing and advancing the storyline) you can spend from a minimum 10 minutes by using (and paying) for Horses/Griffons to about three times that if you chose to go by feet. And we are not talking about going coast to coast from the two opposite sides of the game world, just two vital cities in the 20-30 range. So, as I said, while it's true that the need of inclding every small village to be true to the lore gives sometimes the feeling of a "crammed" world, there's more than you could want to explore and to walk. 

To sum it up quickly, I was so bummed out when I noticed upon logging in the first time that there were just 10 zones total, cause I smelled a small world, and I hate that. Now I am glad, cause those ten zones are HUGE and there are already too many lengthy travels.
And the weird thing is that no one is complaining. Sign that if your game and world is fun and beautiful to look at, the time you spend by walking and riding in it is not an issue.

[Endie]

Fair enough.  I have never been interested in story-driven gameplay.  If I want a story, I'll grab a book.  When I'm in a game, I want to play the game. 

I must have given the wrong impression: the quests aren't linear or whatever.  Well, no more than any current-gen MMO. I just meant that the standard of writing is excellent and that the quests tie into the world well.

I was impressed by the world and the visuals, but it all seemed too condensed.  It had no "world" feel to it at all since I could easily travel a couple of minutes and be someplace new.  I realize that lengthy travel times are a turnoff to most players, but they do give value to regional trade as well as the expansiveness of things.

I really love big worlds and "meaningful travel" (Brad added that to the glossary, no?).  It's the one thing about VG that tempted me for a bit.  Funnily enough, though, I find LOTRO very big-feeling.  Getting from the Low Lands to Breetown, which is a loooong way from the extremes in each direction took me ages, even missing out sightseeing in the Shire.  I couldn't help compare it with running an equivalent amount of zones in WoW, say from the Tauren starting area to.  I'm an explorer type, so having a world big enough to get lost in (repeatedly) is great.  I suspect that Bree is bigger than any city in WoW, too.

The quests also felt a bit too much like everything I'd been through... and the zoning into buildings... ugh.  Talk about cumbersome.  Poorly implemented crafting, contrived classes, and a lack of magic also stifled what could have been a fun aspect for me as well.  It's just a preference/taste thing and I can certainly appreciate why some would enjoy this game for the setting alone.

I totally agree with the zoning into buildingsL= that's a pest and breaks immersion.  And I think you're psot-on that the crafting seems to be crap, though I ignore that aspect.  But the lack of magic is great.  Quite apart from the obvious impossibility due to the lore, it just marks it as different for me.  Every bloody fantasy MMO has magic, so it's no loss to me if this one doesn't let people wave their hands and get particle effects.

You'e right overall, though: it's a taste thing.  For people who like Tolkien, this game is a must.  For those who like WoW but are bored, it's spot on.  For me, it's a good counterpoint to my main game, Eve.

Edit:  Oh, and Deeds!  Deeds are a great mechanic: intermittent, non-level advancement; extra stats for the powergamers; badges for the collectors; titles for the roleplayers.  Nice work, Turbine fellas.

[Darkgar]

I play it, but its just...cool.  Not great but cool.

...
Cool:

* World
* Storylines and scripted stuff
* Graphics / Visuals
* It's a well crafted diku

Uncool:

* Unresponsive combat
* It's just another diku

All the rest could stand in the middle but as you can see, the cools overlap the uncools.
Anyway, in my book cool is not superb.

This about sums it up really.  One other thing I enjoy is the older player base, and I do enjoy the RP events when they have them.  Even the girlfriend likes the 'less slutty' and more realistic approach to the graphical style.  I would add to the list that grouping is rewarded more versus soloing.  The benefit of getting a good rolling quest group together is very fun both for being able to tackle the more difficult quests early and progressing quicker with the deeds system. This compared to solotastic gameplay of WoW we tend to get in and start groups nearly every night I play, and they stick together for more than one quest.

In WoW you progress quicker soloing and then they hit you with tough raids and lots of monotonous faction grinding at the end game, in LOTRO it's a bit more smoothed out.

Also in PvMP you start with a prerolled level 50 character too, and the points you earn PvPing can be spent on all your characters for buffs.  Lots of nice little details in this game, plus they have playable instruments (yay).

So yes it's like a mix of WoW and EQ2 with a lot less B.S.  I'll play it as long as it keeps me/us there.  Warhammer looms to prove itself in the future, but we'll see.  Hey I'm also locked in at 9.99(x2) a month rate too so the cost is minimal as well.

Yes the world is very pretty and the "zones" are huge, and the game will only get bigger from here.

[Venkman]

It's also less predictable than other games. By comparison, WoW feels over-designed, controlling. You can grind in both games, but LoTRO's quests are less predictable in both depth and frequency. It'd be hard to make this comparison in the absence of WoW and EQ2, but there it is.

Deeds are cool, along the lines of some EQ2 stuff but more refined. They do add much depth to your character. You could grind, for example, and still gain deeds (abilities, traits) because what you're grinding on could pay off a deed. It's kinda like faction stuff in WoW but much less single-minded because in LoTRO you can do quests while you do deeds. In WoW faction stuff, the quests dry up real early.

Graphically it is superb, self-consistent with the nature in which the quests are delivered. Funny that some like Old Forest. I agree it's cool to get lost, which I do find interesting. But I don't like that it's a bunch of cleared paths surrounded by walls.

The game map and the minimap are almost useless, and while at first that's annoying, I think it also was done on purpose. It makes you pay attention a bit more, and therefore memorize things a bit better.

Finally, unless the constant spiralling-out of new content for new levels, one spends a LOT of time and levels traveling into the same adventure areas. This is a good way to use development assets more efficiently. But it's also good in that it keeps people of many levels in one area so they can collaberate in realtime. Not a night goes by some higher level doesn't stop off to lend a hand, and I pay that forward. Used to happen in WoW all the time, but players are more quickly spread out there across farther flung zones. Turbine used their limitations in budget I think to create something unique and interesting in this regard.

Or maybe it was just by accident :)

I also like song twisting. It's more manageable than EQ1's system but definitely the same feel on my Minstrel.

Combat doesn't feel as responsive, which is a bummer. But it isn't as unenjoyable as EQ2 at launch either.

If quests are just XP gates to you, steer clear of LoTRO. If you want to see something that delivers better more immersive stories than WoW, check it out. All depends on the motivation of play.

[Ixxit]

Definately what you guys said.  I think for me, the most unique and engrosing thing about Lotro is how it  simulates the  passage of time and world change through instances and other trickery.  In most similar games "time" passes soley because at one point you were level one and now you are level 30.  In Lotro that fact exists as well, but is enhanced  by the fact that   conditions  and environments physically change and actors move throughout the world.

Smoke and mirrors not doubt, but highly effective especially to those that are interested  in more than " XP gates" as Darniaq said.

In that vein, as Turbine expands the world, Moria for example will not only be  just a cool place to explore,  but also  a key part in how the narrative expands and unfolds.  The 'reason'  to explore and how your character arrives at it's gates,  will be just as important and interesting as running through it.  At least that's what I am hoping.   

[Tairnyn]

Is it possible to buy this online (digital download) as of yet?

Not right now :(

For the record, I can think of 3 specific instances in which I would've beocme a barely-active subscriber (the best kind, no?) if I could have purchased a key online during a fleeting moment of Hobbit lust. When I purchase something physically I deliberate endlessly, but I'm such a whore for instant gratification.

[Zodiac]

For the record, I can think of 3 specific instances in which I would've beocme a barely-active subscriber (the best kind, no?) if I could have purchased a key online during a fleeting moment of Hobbit lust. When I purchase something physically I deliberate endlessly, but I'm such a whore for instant gratification.

Trust me, we have the tech for it, but people that make our boxes want the boxes sold unfortunately :) It will come some day, as with all MMOs. I don't know when and where first (which territory) though.

[Zodiac]

oops double post

[WayAbvPar]

oops double post

postcount ++

[Venkman]

According to the most recent NPD report I just read through, only 5% of all MMOs are purchased digitally. That shocked me too actually, but there it is. Boxes are sold because people still want it that way. Given that the target age for traditional box-based MMOs continues to creep up, it's obvious why this is: a bunch of veteran gamers who are used to purchase = install = Disk/CD/DVD-ROM, whether as a console game (the way vast majority of titles sold) or MMOGs. We don't mind so much buying expansion packs and other add-ons digitally, because we've already achieved our accepted price/value by buying the initial box.

[Yegolev]

Well, what counts as MMO to NPD?  The ones we usually think about, or things like MapleStory?