Teachers, be careful what you ask for

[Damn Dirty Ape]

You just might get it:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/27/student.essay.arrest.ap/index.html

[Paelos]

Having done a lot of creative freeform brainstorming before, some of the crap you can actually write down if you let your mind loose is disturbing. It's part of the reason you do it as an exercise. You open up doors that you would normally shut off because of societal norms.

However, it is an excercise, and you go back to read it later and filter out the insanity. Why you would ever turn in a suggestion about killing students in a school a week after a school shooting is beyond stupid on his part if he's innocent of just random thought.

[NiX]

Yeah, as much as I thought to myself that it's not uncommon to think stupid shit like that if you let your mind loose, but nothing should justify you actually submitting that to someone else.

I also felt the need to finish the monkey trio.

[Strazos]

How could such a thing possibly hold up in court? Freedom of Speech, right?

[schild]

The only punishment that kid should get is an F in the class.

Why? That's not creative writing. He was directly influenced by a specific event and dramatized That Event. That's the opposite of creative writing.

That's to say, he failed.

"How the fuck do you fail creative writing?" is what a college would say if they looked at his application.

Give the kid an F and let him work his ass off thinking he'll make something of himself.

There's nothing worse than snatching away a child's dreams.

Yes, I'm good at both cruel AND unusual punishment.

[FatuousTwat]

I agree with schild. He should just be ostracized for the rest of his time in highschool.

A conviction could bring up to 30 days in jail and a maximum $1,500 fine.

Seems a little bit much. Did he really hurt anyone? He didn't name a bunch of people he was going to kill or anything.

When I was in highschool, they found a guy with a list of people he was gonna kill, and all they did to him was to send him to get counselling and he went to a different school for a year.

[Samwise]

It seems more than a bit silly to me to get told "write whatever comes to mind, and don't censor yourself," do it, and then to get punished because you didn't censor yourself.  Seriously.

If anyone should be getting punished here, it should be the teacher.  If the assignment was really "don't censor yourself, unless what comes to mind is about killing people," that should have been stated explicitly.  You can't assume that a bunch of high-schoolers will have a solid grasp of what the limits on free speech are, especially when they're specifically told NOT to limit themselves.

[bhodi]

He's learned two valuable lessons -- don't write what you really think down, and the school administration are your jailers; treat them as such.

[Oban]

Won't someone please think of the Parents?!

[schild]

I agree with schild. He should just be ostracized for the rest of his time in highschool.

A conviction could bring up to 30 days in jail and a maximum $1,500 fine.

Seems a little bit much. Did he really hurt anyone? He didn't name a bunch of people he was going to kill or anything.

When I was in highschool, they found a guy with a list of people he was gonna kill, and all they did to him was to send him to get counselling and he went to a different school for a year.

The student council kept a running List, and every class meeting, they rambled off the people who were added to it each semester. The list being, people who need to be... "removed." We kept everything so politically correct. Also, we had plans to overthrow the faculty and take the schools tower and turn it into a minaret and chaingun down any intruders.

Worst thing we did in high school? Get blasted at a Dropkick Murphys show on a school night.

[Nebu]

He's learned two valuable lessons -- don't write what you really think down, and the school administration are your jailers; treat them as such.

You win the thread. 

Two important lessons I've learned in academia: 

1) When someone asks your opinion, they really just want you to agree with them.

2) Don't write what you really think until you've reached a point of success where it will come off as creative rather than creepy. 

For High School, you nailed it dead on.  This story pissed me off.  Tell a kid to write something open and then punish them for doing exactly what you asked for.  It's all screwed up.

[Paelos]

No teacher should ask for uncensored material. I agree with that completely.

However, no student in high school should be stupid enough to actually believe describing gunning down your fellow students and raping the corpses would be acceptable in any class. Seriously and actually think about the thought process behind him turning this in. There are only two real reasons: 1) He's actually deranged and doesn't comprehend reality well, or 2) He knew exactly what he was doing, wanted to be a giant smartass and turn in something completely nuts, and got absolutely beat down by the system for it because he doesn't have a lick of common sense.

[Tebonas]

Its creative writing, not a laundry list of what you plan to do next week. Treat it as such or do away with that creative writing thing if your fragile teacher mind can handle it.

[Paelos]

Its creative writing, not a laundry list of what you plan to do next week. Treat it as such or do away with that creative writing thing if your fragile teacher mind can handle it.

I disagree. Creative writing can often uncover the inner workings of a disturbed individual. To dismiss them completely offhand as nothing but completing an assignment in all cases is naive. There is a large jump from expanding your boundaries to pyschosis, although sometimes the line gets a little blured at the top end.

[Murgos]

Or, he was just dumb and thought it would be funny to goof off the current events.

The only thing wrong with this kid is that he has bad taste.

Sign of a disturbed mind?  Or just yet another instance of institutional education crushing the creativity out of another student.

[Damn Dirty Ape]

The kid just signed up for the Marines.  Unless things change radically in Washington, chances are he'll be in the Meat Grinder in the not-too-distant future.  If I were in his position, pretty fucking disturbing images would be prominent in my mind too.  I feel his teacher didn't take that into account before blowing the whistle. 

However, this incident may have saved him from that.  I wonder if a conviction will cause the Marines to drop him.

[Samwise]

I disagree. Creative writing can often uncover the inner workings of a disturbed individual. To dismiss them completely offhand as nothing but completing an assignment in all cases is naive. There is a large jump from expanding your boundaries to pyschosis, although sometimes the line gets a little blured at the top end.

Quick!  Put an APB out for Stephen King!

[Der Helm]

I disagree. Creative writing can often uncover the inner workings of a disturbed individual. To dismiss them completely offhand as nothing but completing an assignment in all cases is naive. There is a large jump from expanding your boundaries to pyschosis, although sometimes the line gets a little blured at the top end.

Quick!  Put an APB out for Stephen King!

We have nothing to fear ... 

[Damn Dirty Ape]

King's two cents on the matter:

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20036014,00.html

On the whole, I don't think you can pick these guys out based on their work, unless you look for violence unenlivened by any real talent.

[schild]

So King agrees with me. This kid isn't creative. It took him a page to say that. I love writers. And I knew there was a reason f13.net showed up on google before Stephen King's F13 when you do a search for "f13."

[Samwise]

King wasn't talking about this "incident", he was talking about the VA shootings.

I for one am pleased that society has finally come full circle and is back to blaming the written word for the world's evils.

[schild]

King wasn't talking about this "incident", he was talking about the VA shootings.

I for one am pleased that society has finally come full circle and is back to blaming the written word for the world's evils.

Well, I'm bad at reading.

[Merusk]

The Marines have booted the kid. 

[Roac]

Its creative writing, not a laundry list of what you plan to do next week. Treat it as such or do away with that creative writing thing if your fragile teacher mind can handle it.

I disagree. Creative writing can often uncover the inner workings of a disturbed individual. To dismiss them completely offhand as nothing but completing an assignment in all cases is naive. There is a large jump from expanding your boundaries to pyschosis, although sometimes the line gets a little blured at the top end.

I've been going back and forth on this.  I partly disagree with King, especially the quote Ape mentions; "violence unenlivened by any real talent" isn't itself an indicator.  By itself, it just means someone is trying to write The Shining but sucks at it.  A disturbing story written by a mostly sane individual still leaves you with a mostly sane individual; just one with more or less writing talent.  By the same token, a disturbing story doesn't make someone not nutso just because they have talent; they could be a very disturbed but talented individual. 

Instead, I think teachers (or anyone) needs to look at the overall character of the indivdual.  The story makes this guy out to be a pretty upstanding guy; if that's the case, one oddball story shouldn't ruin his life.  Kick him to a councellor at most and not worry about it.  If there are other factors that combine to make one worry, then sure, look at charges.  My worry in this case is that it's little more than overreaction to the VT shootings, and that's not fair to anyone involved in this.

[Riggswolfe]

Its creative writing, not a laundry list of what you plan to do next week. Treat it as such or do away with that creative writing thing if your fragile teacher mind can handle it.

I disagree. Let's say the school ignored it and then the guy really did go on a killing spree? Guess what gets brought up on the news? "There were signs, like a violent creative writing assignment, but they were ignored. Lawsuits are already pending."

Really, the schools can't win either way. As a parent I'd rather they do over-react instead of under-reacting.

[Nebu]

Really, the schools can't win either way. As a parent I'd rather they do over-react instead of under-reacting.

How about we place some of the responsibility on the adult (aka the teacher).  I'm certain, with a bit of thought, they could have come up with a much better assignment. 

[Damn Dirty Ape]

Wow, the Marines kicked this kid to the curb a lot quicker than I thought they would.  I suppose U. S. military can ill afford to be associated with this boy's overnight infamy, given all the scandals already on its back.  Still, I've heard quite a few soldiers say the reason they joined was to kill.  I dismissed it all as macho posturing as none of them had actually seen battle, but it still came off as creepy talk.

[Sky]

Can we hold Pat Robertson responsible if anything bad happens in the towns or to the people he has doomcasted?

And what's with not having people who want to kill in the military? Isn't that, you know, the whole point? To point those psychopaths in the right direction and let them get their fill of blood? This whole compassionate warfare stuff doesn't make sense to me.

[Roac]

Wow, the Marines kicked this kid to the curb a lot quicker than I thought they would.  I suppose U. S. military can ill afford to be associated with this boy's overnight infamy, given all the scandals already on its back.  Still, I've heard quite a few soldiers say the reason they joined was to kill.  I dismissed it all as macho posturing as none of them had actually seen battle, but it still came off as creepy talk.

It's not just marines.  I know quite a number of agents/officers who look forward to playing tough guy.  I don't know how many of them want to outright /kill/, or who might have issues afterwards, but at this stage they are just begging for someone to give an excuse to allow for use of force.  A bit disturbing, but I do think there is some level of difference between guys wanting to be the macho hero (even if they haven't really thought through what they are asking for or might do), and guys wanting to kill for the sake of killing.

[Yegolev]

I figured he would have gotten into the Marines for sure after that.

[Damn Dirty Ape]

I don't want this discussion to descend into anti-military rantings as there's been quite a few vets I admire.  When I could get them to talk about their experiences, they tended to describe things in terms of mission objectives they had to accomplish, how they looked after their buddies, and the sheer hell of a war-torn area, particuarly for women and children.  None of them mentioned a desire to kill.

[Yegolev]

I am actually very pro-military.

[Damn Dirty Ape]

And I'm being too serious.  Let's have some Ren and Stimpy to lighten things up:

[Yegolev]

/hi5

[Llava]

I've known some marines.  Most of them are great guys who, on occasion, say something very disturbing.  If you're Rosie O'Donnel, you explode and make a huge media event out of it.  Otherwise, you're probably a reasonable person and you let it slide.

What's ironic about the whole thing is that this kid did exactly what every Marine I've known has done, and they tell him "no dice" because of it.

I mean, let's be real- you do need to be just a little fucked in the head to want to be a Marine.  And that's fine, I want the Marines to be that nasty.  They're the military's badass branch.