Blizzard starting work on 'Next-Gen MMO'?

[Jayce]

Why are you guys so fixated on innovation?

Originally we were trying to figure out what are key elements to WoW's success. Blizzard brand name and Warcraft franchise seem like key reason. This could mean that whatever they release next will be as successful as WoW, regardless of which franchise Blizzard uses - Starcraft, Lost Vikings, Warcraft or Diablo. Hence whole discussion in 'Neg-Gen MMO' thread.

Then I don't get why the counter examples cited aren't good enough.  Star Wars = WAY more mainstream franchise; result: flop. Sims = way more widespread brand recognition; result: flop.  If you mean stricly dev house recognition, sure, among gamers Blizzard has a good name.  It's not magic that got them there, though, it's consistent quality. WoW is a quality product, as provably as you can get (judging by stability, feature set, etc), regardless of whether the gameplay is your thing.

So yeah, I disagree that brand recognition and franchise are the key advantage that Blizzard has.  Their key advantage is consistent delivery of fun* games that don't crash frequently or have stability problems or have runaway balance problems or most of the other hobgoblins that plague this space.  Brand loyalty is the result of these things, not the cause.


*your definition of fun of course may vary

[Furiously]

Ok - here's the innovative thing Blizzard did....

They spent time to make sure everything worked pretty well before they released.

[ajax34i]

So yeah, I disagree that brand recognition and franchise are the key advantage that Blizzard has. 

Well, they certainly have these advantages now, for their next MMO.  I disagree that they had these for WoW at the time WoW launched sufficiently to account for WoW's success.  The Blizzard name was well known, sure, but the WoW numbers surpass what they could have gotten on name alone.

[eldaec]

The Patent Office awards patents on the application of old ideas in new ways.

Fine.

Then everything is innovative.

The word becomes meaningless. And I win the thread.

[Furiously]

So yeah, I disagree that brand recognition and franchise are the key advantage that Blizzard has. 

Well, they certainly have these advantages now, for their next MMO.  I disagree that they had these for WoW at the time WoW launched sufficiently to account for WoW's success.  The Blizzard name was well known, sure, but the WoW numbers surpass what they could have gotten on name alone.

uhmmm... Starcraft alone figures...

Upside of 4 million copies of StarCraft have been sold in Korea alone since its debut in 1998 to account for about 42 percent of its global sales, which stands at 9.5 million copies.

I think most people knew played computer games knew who Blizzard was.

[schild]

Rage is only a newish mechanic in MMOGs. It's been around in console titles forever. Not innovation. Just borrowing from what might as well be considered a different genre.

[Bunk]

This thread needs a Schild and Sinij exorcism and then it may approach reality.

 

I'm still waiting for an explanation from those two as to why, if brand name > *, The Sims Online doesn't have half a billion subs.

The answer, rather obviously, is that name brand gets you initially noticed. Sims Online had a pretty good chunk of people trying it in beta. They just all ran away screaming once they realized what a PoS it was. SWG had a pretty good launch, it just couldn't carry the momentum once people actually tried to play it.

The difference was that WoW was a good enough game to retain people after the initial launch, and good enough to generate word of mouth buzz to attract more players.

[Simond]

So...the continued success of WoW is because it's a good game (relative to the particular subgenre of MMOG it is in)?

That's what pretty much everyone except the Two S'sses have been saying, though.

[sinij]

Same deal as our car argument... is no-frills economy but reliable car can be 'a good car' or would you rather have sports convertible that can be finicky at times but rewards you with performance, style and comfort every time you use it? While for transportation 'just works' might be good enough reason, but when it comes to entertainment?

[CassandraR]

I'd say a cheap but reliable car is very good indeed but I don't much care for for driving and wish to fiddle with it as little as possible. The subject has already been brought up but I think WoW is popular because its easy and somewhat fun. If you are just looking to burn some hours on a relatively simple game then its great. On the other hand if you want a religious experience in an MMO its not what you are looking for.

[Akkori]

Then I don't get why the counter examples cited aren't good enough.  Star Wars = WAY more mainstream franchise; result: flop. Sims = way more widespread brand recognition; result: flop. 

For Star Wars at least, the fan base is not exclusively computer gamers. I won't even try to guess the percentage (maybe some of the smart guys in here can), but it's safe to say that less than 100% of the people who like that IP are gamers. On the other side, you have the Blizzard name, which is synonymous with computer games. Their IP's are exclusively, 100% computer games. Therefore 100% of the people who know the name are computer gamers. Makes for a decent player base for their new games.

I am rooting for a Starcraft MMO next, but only if it has a good crafting/economic model. Better than WoW would be a nice start. An I want to sit in game. And decorate. 

[Slayerik]

Then I don't get why the counter examples cited aren't good enough.  Star Wars = WAY more mainstream franchise; result: flop. Sims = way more widespread brand recognition; result: flop. 

For Star Wars at least, the fan base is not exclusively computer gamers. I won't even try to guess the percentage (maybe some of the smart guys in here can), but it's safe to say that less than 100% of the people who like that IP are gamers. On the other side, you have the Blizzard name, which is synonymous with computer games. Their IP's are exclusively, 100% computer games. Therefore 100% of the people who know the name are computer gamers. Makes for a decent player base for their new games.

I am rooting for a Starcraft MMO next, but only if it has a good crafting/economic model. Better than WoW would be a nice start. An I want to sit in game. And decorate. 

Oh come on, if 10% of 100 million star wars fans are gamers (which, is in no way unreasonable) thats a pretty big player pool.

[Nija]

My stepdad, who is a die-hard Starwars fan (~$20k in collectibles) thinks the games suck. He still plays red alert 2 daily. He's 54 and a JADED Starwars gamer. He had 0 interest in SWG. I think he started hating the Starwars games with XvT. We played the shit out of Xwing, Tie Fighter, and the SNES side scrollers.

WOW was/is good because they released the most finished product in the history of online games. You wordy motherfuckers can argue all you want but nobody else has done it. Before or since.

The only thing you might compare it to is FFXI, but that is such a shoddy PC game that pretty much everyone I know blew it off. It's consoled to fuck, worse than Oblivion and Deus Ex 2. The only PC gamers I know who put up with FFXI for more than 3 weeks are animu nerds who are probably closet pedos. Dead serious.

8 year olds, dude.

[Lantyssa]

Main Entry: in•no•va•tion 
Pronunciation: \ˌi-nə-ˈvā-shən\
Function: noun
1 : the introduction of something new 2 : a new idea, method, or device : novelty

pol·ish [pol-ish]
- noun

[Wolf]

Wait, what? There are Polish people working for Blizzard? Polish people drink a lot.

[Ironwood]

Wheee, it got even sillier.

[Nebu]

Wheee, it got even sillier.

Serious discussion about video games is pretty much doomed from the get go.

[Daeven]

There will be no seriousity here. Heretics will be tarred and forced to eat Kool-aide pickles.

As to the car sub-tread, I know that I drive my Rx-8 because of my love for you all. I am filled with feelings of joy and love of all humanity as I zip passed you at 90 miles an hour in a car that purrs in sixth gear. Especially you fuckers that like to park your piece of shit 'utilitarian', cheap but reliable crap in the left lane. I have unbounded love and joy for you at those moments most of all.

Imagine a world without lane campers, and love will set you free.

[Nija]

And I chuckle each time you putter past in that RX8 getting V10-like mileage with V-twin like torque.

[Daeven]

Oi! I get far better mileage than a Hummer you! And who needs torque when you can take the engine to 11?

No no. You don't understand. It must be better. It goes to 11. See?

Heretic.

[WindupAtheist]

Same deal as our car argument... is no-frills economy but reliable car can be 'a good car' or would you rather have sports convertible that can be finicky at times but rewards you with performance, style and comfort every time you use it? While for transportation 'just works' might be good enough reason, but when it comes to entertainment?

I'm sorry, but where in the MMO genre do you think you see something equivalent to this?  Because all I see is WoW, a bunch of games that are just shittier WoW, and a few kooky indie titles that are NEVER going to be mainstream.

There is no sports car.  There's just the WoW economy car, a bunch of economy cars that are identical except they have more rust, and a couple "innovative" fuckers on unicycles.

[Slayerik]

You see I drive an S-10 and my wife drives a Chevy Venture van. Now lets analyse that.

Wife drives a soccer mom van, enjoys Pogo and played WoW with me for a bit. So if you have a soccer mom van you definetely are into ...um...pogo and Wow.

Me, I drive an S-10...which means I'm a real American PK. I bet everyone that drives S-10's basically own everyone. I love analysing stupid shit then comparing it to MMOs. Its Sweet.

[Simond]

Edit: Argh, transparency!

[Typhon]

 why is there this --> , but nothing to indicate that a thread should be put out of it's misery.  I want an anthropomorphic piece of string (a frayed knot, if you will), which is clearly delusional, getting shot in the head... and I want it applied to this thread, stat.

[Venkman]

I thought we'd already closed the issue of why WoW was successful.

• Blizzard is a Brand name too. This attracted.
• Warcraft is a huge brand. This attracted.
• They made a quality playable experience. This retains.
• They tested and tested and tested, and then tested again, their typical way of working.
• They had the largest development budget ever.
• They spent most of it on testing and content creation, having quickly identifying the game mechanic they wanted to use because it's what the majority of players seemed to want. This retains.
• That budget came from a mothership way high in orbit, only occasionally sending down emissaries to dictate some terms.
• Vivendi can reach markets most MMO publishers cannot (or do not, for whatever reason)
• WoW works on anything built in the last six years, roughly. This means if you were playing EQ1, you were invited. This attracted.
  
  

Innovation is not invention. It's doing what others have done in some better way that's more successful. That's WoW in a nutshell.

[sinij]

I'm sorry, but where in the MMO genre do you think you see something equivalent to this? 

EvE, SB would be Ferrari with missing wheels and head gasket failure... if only you could fix it.... UO would be classic Corvette with Hugo engine transplant and painted gaudy pink by second owner. Perhaps whatever Stray Bullets Games are working on right now. Yes, not much. Hopefully it will change.

[Endie]

I take it that someone has already posted the "Blizzard to announce Starcraft MMO on May 19th" rumour on CVG and I just missed it?  Or did everyone just see through this shallow fabrication, but stay quiet to laugh if someone fell for it?  Like me?

[schild]

You know. I think there's something everyone missed on page 1. Maybe.

Next-Gen MMO implies 2 things.

1. It's going to be a console game. Entirely possible. I could see Diablo Online being on the 360. When was "next-gen" ever used for anything associated with PC Gaming? The timing is less than coincidental with the next gen systems out methinks.
2. It's not using the WoW engine. So it probably won't be traditional. And probably won't be Starcraft.
3. Console games aren't that popular in Korea.

As such, I can see the announcement being the more than half-done Starcraft 2.

[Engels]

I don't get the concept of console-based MMOs, since the primary idea behind MMOs is grouping and socializing (otherwise, we'd all be content with CS and Battlenet variations), but, and here I may show my ignorance, typing is not exactly a forte of consoles.

[Venkman]

Actually, can we really say that MMOs are about grouping and socializing anymore? Grouping implies people come to these games to group with any and everyone. Socializing implies people come to talk to any and everyone. Neither is so apparent in an age when soloing has become something to advertise and social tools haven't evolved in EQ1 launched the Bazaar.

here I may show my ignorance, typing is not exactly a forte of consoles.

Voicechat, particularly on the 360, which incorporates video chat. Hell, you can play Uno (XBLA) against four people and have a video conference with them in that window. Xbox Live is a very well integrated service and all games that want to use it have to support a wide array of communication tools (among other things). Sony can announce anything they want. I think they are years away from what Xbox has been doing. Wii is the wildcard. They're as integrated, just in different ways.

Or just buy a USB keyboard. They fall off the back of a truck more expensive than you find them in CompUSA these days.

[angry.bob]

I don't get the concept of console-based MMOs, since the primary idea behind MMOs is grouping and socializing (otherwise, we'd all be content with CS and Battlenet variations), but, and here I may show my ignorance, typing is not exactly a forte of consoles.

This is why I said in that other thread that Warhammer Online must have native voice communication no matter what it takes to do it. At which point everyone said native voice is stupid and sucks. As much as it might suck, it doesn't suck as much as trying to use the 360's keyboard and mouse.

[Engels]

That might be a good solution, in time. It would cut the separation bewteen console and pc down drastically in relation to MMOs.

I disagree with Darniaq; if people didn't want the option to socialize with strangers, they'd simply stick to their CS clans and be done with it. Although behavior nowadays suggests that people are more interested in sticking to pre-formed social networks established in the late 90s and early 00 rather than branching out and reforming new ones, that doesn't mean that people want a closed network either.

That MMO social tools haven't evolved past EQ1 suggests that the established social methods of communication have become a standard in the industry, not that they are somehow lessening in importance to players. It goes even farther back to the time of the first MUDs. What made MUDs and later EQ revolutionary was that very notion that you could play with anyone around the world. Games are sometimes solitary ventures, but outside the realm of computers,  90% of the time they are social exercises. That was what was so OMG!1! about MOOs/MUSHs/MUDs; they finally opened the door to social computer games at an unprecedented scale.

If MMOs fall back to consoles, without a relatively easy way of communicating with the stranger, we may as well go back to single player mode, or the anonymous frag fest. Voice chat may be one solution, but I think the average player out there is reticent in opening voice dialogue with a perfect set of strangers. There still needs to be that lead in time over the keyboard. Perhaps in time that social barrier will fade, but I think Blizzard would be treading on dangerous territory to offer a console-only MMO.

[Trippy]

Voicechat, particularly on the 360, which incorporates video chat. Hell, you can play Uno (XBLA) against four people and have a video conference with them in that window. Xbox Live is a very well integrated service and all games that want to use it have to support a wide array of communication tools (among other things). Sony can announce anything they want. I think they are years away from what Xbox has been doing. Wii is the wildcard. They're as integrated, just in different ways.

Or just buy a USB keyboard. They fall off the back of a truck more expensive than you find them in CompUSA these days.

Dunno about video chat but the PS2 and PS3 both support voice chat. And don't forget this beauty on the 360:

[Venkman]

Dude is that thing real? I see the JPG is hosted at Xbox, but I can't find any link for the device. Someone having fun with CADD, or is it really an Xbox Blackberry?

I disagree with Darniaq; if people didn't want the option to socialize with strangers, they'd simply stick to their CS clans and be done with it. Although behavior nowadays suggests that people are more interested in sticking to pre-formed social networks established in the late 90s and early 00 rather than branching out and reforming new ones, that doesn't mean that people want a closed network either.

Actually, we agree, because my point is that people are here for the opportunity to be social with strangers. They just don't exercise it that often. And, as a result of this recognized behavior, games have been changed to be more soloable.

As to the pre-formed social networks, I sorta agree. It seems that more people coming to this genre who do want to exercise their opportunity to be social are first seeking clans/guilds/corps outside of the game. Either they're doing so before they even enter the game the first time, through some meta-game social network (like, say: here), or they hit the game, finish the newbie experience and then travel the official boards for one. The days of PUGs leading to guilds seem be in decline.

But then I wonder was that ever really the most popular method for forming sustainable guilds ("Be an officer in new guild, come to orc lift now!!1")

[Endie]

Dude is that thing real? I see the JPG is hosted at Xbox, but I can't find any link for the device. Someone having fun with CADD, or is it really an Xbox Blackberry?

Yes, it is real.