Blizzard starting work on 'Next-Gen MMO'?

[ajax34i]

Does it outsell everything else by as much as WoW? I give it that there is market for polished turds in every market but you don't see 9/10 people drive Civic/Yaris/Sentra.

The auto market is way more mature than the MMO market though.  I don't know what the Honda Civic sales numbers are, but I think (no proof) that the Ford Model T or whatever it was did outsell everything else as much as WoW does, back in the days where the automobile was just starting to take off.

[AcidCat]

Honda Civic is CHEAP car and people that buy them do it simply because they can't afford anything better.

Or maybe it just serves a purpose for folks who want simple transportation from point A to point B and that's all that matters to them. In that case why would they purchase an automobile for twice as much, even if they could afford it?

[SnakeCharmer]

Honda Civic is not a nice car. BMW 760 Alpina or Austin Martin are nice cars. Honda Civic is CHEAP car and people that buy them do it simply because they can't afford anything better.

Not true.  I know quite a few people that can buy a brand new 3 or 5 series BMW, but buy used Hondas instead.

Aside from the fact that 15k base isn't cheap, I'd put a Honda Civic as equal to or better than any BMW in terms of build quality and reliability and superior to ANY Aston Martin. 

Civics are very nice, well built cars; regardless of cost.

[Nija]

Congratulations, you have conquered your Everest many times.

Here are the things that sucked in Diablo 2 as I remember them:

• You can permanently gimp your character with your stat and talent point allocation.
• The talent system rewards you for saving your talent points.
• The zones are lifeless. There is no unforgettable scenery.
• You have to grind for exp to keep up with quests, especially later.
• There is no path to getting a better piece of equipment, just grinding.
• The UI with its click-click-click and the choose-skill/use-skill distinction.
• The endless grind and repeating quests if you want to beat the game by creating a perfect character.

If Blizzard were to make Diablo Online that fixed those, a) it wouldn't be Diablo as y'all remember and b) when it finally released, it would be to WoW as EQ2 at launch was to EQ.

1) You can. I didn't.
2) Not really.
3) The zones are full of life. Mostly random. Bosses where you'd expect to find them. Mini-bosses all over. Hundreds of monsters all over, otherwise.
4) Grind? Quests? Are we talking about Diablo2?
5) There is no grind in D2. I'm not sitting outside a town killing the same dwarf guard over and over. I'm wading through bodies of fallen enemies. If I don't want to play, I don't play. There are no Joneses to keep up with. I don't want paths towards getting certain equipment unless it's harvesting the correct resources needed to create an item. A specific mob dropping a specific magic item is dumb. Unless you're talking about a system where what you kill has what it's wearing on the corpse. I like that system, but that system is neither here nor there. (and was only partly in UO.)
6) Left click enemy. Hold. You're now attacking! Congrats, you advance to Level 2!
7) No grinding in D2. Just playing. There is no "goal" you're just wasting time, whacking monsters. You don't repeat quests. You do them once per difficulty level. Are you sure you played Diablo2? My only goal in D2 was to see how deep in the shit I could get myself and come out alive. Lightning mini-bosses on Hell difficulty put you in your place quickly.

[Furiously]

And looking at marketshare:

Ford F-Series (F-150) 3%
Honda Civic 3%
Chevrolet Silverado 1500 3%
Toyota Camry 3%
Honda Accord Sedan 2%
Toyota Corolla 2%
Toyota Tacoma 2%
Nissan Altima 2%
Dodge Ram 1500 Pickup 2%
Honda Odyssey 1%

The auto market is way more mature than the MMO market though.  I don't know what the Honda Civic sales numbers are, but I think (no proof) that the Ford Model T or whatever it was did outsell everything else as much as WoW does, back in the days where the automobile was just starting to take off.

Probably a better example.

[Morat20]

Speaking of automotives -- I just stumbled onto the projected features/rumors for the 2009 Prius and got an instant erection. I was planning on buying one early in 2008, but if the 2009 stuff shapes up I'll happily wait, even if I have to buy a junker to keep me on the road for six more months.

80+ MPG, shaves two seconds off the 0-60 range, 1000 miles per tank, and a denser more efficient battery pack so more trunk room. Fuck yeah.

[sinij]

Prius are like Porche, an ego car the only difference is that it measures MPGs instead of 0 to 60.

But back to WoW

The auto market is way more mature than the MMO market though.  I don't know what the Honda Civic sales numbers are, but I think (no proof) that the Ford Model T or whatever it was did outsell everything else as much as WoW does, back in the days where the automobile was just starting to take off.

Interesting analogy. So next larger than life with tons of frills (50s era cars) mmorpgs? I can live with that, hope it takes less than 20 years to get there.

[Furiously]

And lots of Edsels.

[Furiously]

I'd say most represented market is low-mid class, something like Altima/Accord/Camry followed by entry luxury like BMW/Lexus/Acura.

Actually for asians - 6% marketshare for the Civic.  You are buying reliability and resale value.

[Morat20]

Prius are like Porche, an ego car the only difference is that it measures MPGs instead of 0 to 60.

Gas isn't getting cheaper. I'm happy with paying a bit extra up front for 40mpg. I'm fucking thrilled with paying the same price (2009 prices aren't supposed to move more than inflation) for fucking 80mpg.

Ego car my fucking ass. I'm sick of filling up every week for 40+.

Edited to add: Current model Prius' are a net loss versus gas purchases under normal driving conditions and current gas prices. However, I find it easier to pay extra through a five year loan for a lengthy effective discount on gas. Secondly -- and more importantly -- gas prices aren't going to go down much, so the point where a Prius becomes cost effective versus gas prices gets sooner and sooner. Thirdly, the 2009 model is looking to get twice the mileage with better perfomance, which I sincerely bet is going to change that little equation even more.

Oh -- and don't think no one noticed that you ignored five seperate reponses on innovative changes in WoW. You know you don't have a fucking case, so why are you harping on it? Is your fucking DIKU hate so strong you have to force reality to bend to it?

[sinij]

schild more than adequately addressed all points for me, I didn't felt like re-typing his responses since I agreed with them 100% (even part that called me a nut)

[WindupAtheist]

No grinding in D2. Just playing.

Yeah, the bit responded to here was puzzling to me.  You don't grind in D2.  You either feel like killing every fucking monster in the world, or you don't play.  To do otherwise is akin to playing Pac-Man and bitching about having to "grind" on dots.

EDIT:  Been on a 16-bit kick lately.  I won't give a fuck about Starcraft Galaxies or whatever, but if Blizzard's big announcement is World of Rock 'N Roll Racing, sign my ass up.  :-D

[Simond]

Calling the monster-cide 'grinding' is just as valid (or invalid) as calling running an instance in WoW 'grinding' - yes, you're attempting to slaughter everything between you and your goal but you're not grinding in the old EQ/L2/etc sense of 'Sitting in one spot pulling identical mobs for hours on end just to get the next level"

[Megrim]

I think the amount of pleasure derived should be a part of that definition. 'Grinding' in WoW would be defined as being not particularly fun. Plowing through stuff in D2 is.

[tkinnun0]

I think it was normal difficulty where I noticed I was falling behind recommended levels for the few quests that there are. So I looked at a guide, found the mob that gives best exp/hour for my level, then zone in, clear, zone out, zone in, clear, zone out, ...

That is the definition of grinding and is the reason I quit in disgust.

[Ironwood]

Then the problem was with you, I suspect.

[tkinnun0]

"go back to WoW", eh?

Pining for the original Diablo is like pining for the original EQ. At best it will pass soon, at worst it takes $20m and you end up with VG.

[Endie]

Honda Civic is not a nice car. BMW 760 Alpina or Austin Martin are nice cars. Honda Civic is CHEAP car and people that buy them do it simply because they can't afford anything better.

Not true.  I know quite a few people that can buy a brand new 3 or 5 series BMW, but buy used Hondas instead.

Aside from the fact that 15k base isn't cheap, I'd put a Honda Civic as equal to or better than any BMW in terms of build quality and reliability and superior to ANY Aston Martin. 

This is very true.  I currently own a BMW and a Kia Sorrento.  I am selling the BMW because it is unreliable and expensive to fix and insure, and because, as AcidCat says, I just want a way to get me, my wife, my friends and my dogs from A to B, and I really don't care any more about demonstrating to the world how well my company's share options have done in the last couple of years.  Nor do I care about how my car can reach 130 with ease when I never get to go above 70 in it.  The Kia is big, dull and functional and never breaks down.  Even if it did, I still have 28 months of unlimited milage warranty left, and if I really want then I can extend that further for 250 quid a year: I spend more than that just on the basic oil service for the beamer.  Oh, and the 4x4 has a bigger engine *and* better fuel consumption than the BMW.

BMWs suck.  People buy them because they want to look rich in their car.  I imagine that is why I bought it, but I grew up.  The Honda civic, while impractical for me, is a well-built, reliable, functional little thing that comes cheap and runs even cheaper.

/derail

[Simond]

The reliability of Teutonic engineering is vastly over-rated anyway.

[sinij]

BMWs are not for soccer moms - its not a car you can ignore and it will keep limping home even with majority of its system malfunctioning. Unless you have a lemon (and hey speaking of lemons, Honda Automatic transmission issues?) brand new BMW is not any more or less reliable than any other car, afterwards maintenance matters A LOT. Due to the fact that BMWs can get to 130 easily a lot of precision engineering went into them that does not play well with 'just put in cheap stuff' at Quicklube twice a year.

I dealt with a lot of old and new BMWs and often problems can be traced to negligence by owners. Fact that people that can buy brand new BMW often can afford to run them into the ground in 4 years doesn't help it in any way.

As to BMW being expensive to fix, yes they are, especially if you do it a dealership. When you deal with dealership you are paying for service. I don't know if any of you ever owned BMW but dealer service is always superb, they give you loaner car while its in the shop and they actually clean and wash your car after they are done.

I find key to successfully owning BMW/Porche is being mechanically inclined. If you understand cars you will avoid a lot of problems Joe Avrage gripes about when they compare it to some PeasantMobile.

I'm glad you like you Kia but get back to me in a year, when rattles start, cheap interior goes and you forget what it is like to pass someone on a highway with ease.

Side story: I purchased 14 year old BMW for a relative when he went to college. I found one in good shape that was cared for, did a lot of preventive fixes and gave it away along with good repair manual and a toolbox. He still owns that car... and prefers it to his brand new car.


I guess that is the main problem with WoW, too many people never took pre-Tram UO, SB, EvE for a spin to know exactly what they are missing and think that mediocrity of 'just works' is the best thing ever. I can even understand 'just works' attitude when it comes to transportation, but picking bland mediocrity for ENTERTAINMENT?

[Miasma]

The reliability of Teutonic engineering is vastly over-rated anyway.

Both my boss and his brother buy a new BMW every year or two, then they go through months of the car not working at all and having to be rebuilt.  The next six months are spent ironing out lesser glitches.  There will be a major malfunction every six months or so.  The guy who owns a mini (made by BMW) is on a first name basis with the driver of the shuttle bus who takes him to and from the repair garage.  I don't know why they keep on buying these pieces of shit.  It's startling because they are both sticklers for details, want things to be done right, get angry when things go wrong and have little tolerance for ineptness in every way but then always let BMW slide and make up excuses for them.

Mercedes are even worse.

[Nija]

I think it was normal difficulty where I noticed I was falling behind recommended levels for the few quests that there are. So I looked at a guide, found the mob that gives best exp/hour for my level, then zone in, clear, zone out, zone in, clear, zone out, ...

That is the definition of grinding and is the reason I quit in disgust.

Sounds like the problem is with you. When I'm creating my characters in D2, act1 is played normally. From Act2 onward I set /players 8 so I get more experience per kill and each monster is tougher. It simulates that 8 players are connected and adjusts the difficulty as needed.

Try a hammerdin or a bowazon with the summon next time.

[Endie]

Nah, I *am* mechanically minded, treat the BMW well, stick to the servicing schedule, take it in when I hear or feel anything unusual.  I used to take cars apart with my grandfather and father - we rebuilt one MGB in particular many times.  The problems with the beamer are not to do with the engine, which is, of course, only just beginning its life at 45,000 miles.  That has never been an issue.  The gearbox is, similarly, solid if a little stiff.  But, for example, the electrics in the doors have had to be replaced, twice in the right driver's door for both the window and the locking system.  The electrics in general have been the most expensive element, probably costing around £400 - 800 dollars - a year on average.  The cam shaft sensor has failed.  The rear suspension bushes were knackered after 36,000 miles, and the front suspension ball joints didn't last much longer: the suspension sub-system in general has been really shoddy and the only excuse is that it occasionally sees cobbles in Edinburgh.  And then there were little things like the fact that both pistons in the boot went.  I've checked, and these are pretty common things.

Of course, it is lovely to drive: the back end steps out wonderfully when you give it the chance.  The engine is a dream.  But I've done all that stuff now.

By the way, the standards of service in the dealers I've dealt with have been consistent across BMW, Ford and Kia.  I always get a lift to my office and picked up afterwards (though Eastern BMW only take me to a specific point in the western central town and no further).  They all wash and clean the car.

PS I played pre-tram UO and play Eve (though never SB).  I hate WoW, and only played it for a few months total because the wife liked it for a while.

[Nija]

I'm not going to copy/paste my post from another board, but it's on topic with BMWs.

From the SA boards

[ajax34i]

BMWs are not for soccer moms - its not a car you can ignore and it will keep limping home even with majority of its system malfunctioning.
 [...] afterwards maintenance matters A LOT. Due to the fact that BMWs can get to 130 easily a lot of precision engineering went into them that does not play well with 'just put in cheap stuff' at Quicklube twice a year.

I dealt with a lot of old and new BMWs and often problems can be traced to negligence by owners.

[...]

I find key to successfully owning BMW/Porche is being mechanically inclined. If you understand cars you will avoid a lot of problems Joe Avrage gripes about when they compare it to some PeasantMobile.

I guess that is the main problem with WoW, too many people [...] think that mediocrity of 'just works' is the best thing ever. I can even understand 'just works' attitude when it comes to transportation, but picking bland mediocrity for ENTERTAINMENT?

I think you answered your own question there.  Like the TV, sometimes bland Entertainment that requires NO EFFORT whatsoever is better than "quality" entertainment that requires a lot of effort to get.  Come home from work, you want to RELAX rather than actually have a top notch entertainment experience (those are reserved for the weekend / Friday night / whatever, when you go out to a nice restaurant etc).  I guess there are a lot more people coming home from work wanting to relax, than there are people who are already relaxed and looking for taste, quality, and an exquisite evening, every day.

[Morat20]

schild more than adequately addressed all points for me, I didn't felt like re-typing his responses since I agreed with them 100% (even part that called me a nut)

You mean the part where he said jack shit about whether WoW was innovative or not?

Just give the fuck up. You let your blazing red-hot fucking DIKU hate obscure reality for a second, said something stupid, and now are playing duck-and-weave. Blizzard's made significant changes to the DIKU model as applied to MMORPGs -- specifically quest-based experience, low-systems reqs (for a fucking NEW game -- I still can't believe you were desperate enough to compare WoW at launch specs with Ultima Online -- jesus, man), a highly solo-friendly 1-60 game, and for the bleeding edges -- the Lua scripting language and UI access.

All of that was new and fucking different. It wasn't a gargantuan fucking change in the MMORPG industry. It didn't make it non-DIKU, which seems to be your sole definition of 'innovative in a MMORPG setting', but it was a series of well-needed and well-recieved changes that made sure those Blizzard fanbois kept playing -- and that the rest of the gaming market came along.

[Nija]

I got to max level in WoW, D2 and many other DIKU titles.

Morat you should have started ignoring him after those two bolded abbreviations.

[Engels]

I own a 03 325CI and I'm not loving it too much, to be honest. It doesn't have many miles on it, but it just feels like a maintenance queen. My previous car, a 1983 911, was a simpler, easier car. Even if the clutch cost twice as much to replace as it would on a VW, you don't have to worry about it unless you abuse it.

I too have experienced the 'replace the entire thing' syndrome at BMW. Recently my front brake pads went, and they simply replaced the entire brake system on the front! $600 bucks for brake pads! I got a bunch of garbledigook explanations from the dealership about the advanced brake system on BMWs, and how that required a full replacement, yada yada yada, but that shit would not be the case with an older model Porsche.

I'm enclined to shop around and find another pre-1984 Porsche 911, and trade it in. Yes, technically, I'd be losing money, but I see nothing but a trail of tears ahead of me with the 325CI, whereas my previous experienced with an older Porsche was not expensive by comparison.

[Morat20]

I got to max level in WoW, D2 and many other DIKU titles.

Morat you should have started ignoring him after those two bolded abbreviations.

Probably. You know, now that I think about it -- the energy and rage mechanics on WoW were a bit different to me, but my MMORPG experience is highly spotty. Did Blizzard pick those off of someone, or did they do that themselves?

[Slayerik]

I drive an S-10 and it kicks ass and has 190k on it and is still purring away.

Oh shit, sorry...this thread was about MMO's until people started stroking themselves over owning BMW's (kinda like the reason you would buy one in the first place).

All I know is, from this point on 'Next Gen" = the next Blizzard MMO, period. What kind of aspiring MMO's do we have coming down the pipe that could get called anything besides WoW with *insert function here*. WoW with action combat and sieges (AoC) will do well. Wow with DAOC (Warhammer) will do slightly worse. Companies will want to emulate the cash cow, and so they will fail. A couple small houses with balls might get an eve-esque niche. Until Bliz decides its time for the Next Gen and they steal and tweak the best shit out of all those games and produce a fun , addictive, playable, and stable "3rd gen" MMO.

And Vanguard will rise from the ashes just to facebang all of us non-believers. ;)

[Signe]

Which gen are we on now?  I forget.

[Lantyssa]

Energy is a better version of SWG's depleating HAM.  The base concept at least, without the consequence of killing yourself in the process.  Both are really a rapidly refilling mana bar so I consider it more of a new execution of an old design.

I'm not aware of using Rage in a similar fashion, although I'm personally not too big on it.  I prefer CoV's Brute mechanic for building up power over the course of a fight.

[Morat20]

Energy is a better version of SWG's depleating HAM.  The base concept at least, without the consequence of killing yourself in the process.  Both are really a rapidly refilling mana bar so I consider it more of a new execution of an old design.

I'm not aware of using Rage in a similar fashion, although I'm personally not too big on it.  I prefer CoV's Brute mechanic for building up power over the course of a fight.

I haven't managed to try CoV -- I want to, but frankly I kept burning out on CoH too fast. Which sucks, because CoH had -- hands down -- the most awesome and interactive feel to combat. I had a blast. It wasn't the combat that burned me out -- not sure what it was. Repetitive missions? The horrid realization that building characters was even more fun than playing them?

The fact that I didn't have a regular group of friends in the game didn't help.

[Triforcer]

I would just like to say that anybody who says WoW's success is 90% having "Blizzard" on the box is smoking crack heretofore unavailable in mortal dimensions.  Seriously schild/sinij/whoever, we are through the Looking Glass of mundane insanity-fueled hatred and into Blair-Land. 

[schild]

The best part about saying it's 90% Blizzard is that no one can prove me wrong and every day that goes by proves me more right and everyone else more wrong.