Blizzard starting work on 'Next-Gen MMO'?

[Nebu]

What this means in the real world is that ideas have no value. 

Very true.  I have my pathetic salary as a researcher to prove it.

[trias_e]

I was under the assumption that lead designers get paid pretty well.

Obviously, it's not just coming up with a design doc.  It's dealign with the ebb and flow of design, constantly making decisions based on resources and problems that arise.  But in the end, they are still basically getting paid, and often highly rewarded as the 'rockstars' of gaming, basically just for their ideas.

The only coder geek that anyone knows about is Carmack.  Every other well known figure in gaming is a designer that I can think of.  Miyamato's or Wright's ideas have much much more value than your bump-mapping coder.  One reason is that these ideas are generally well grounded and executable.  They can filter their vision into reality, something the average person cannot do.  The other thing about them is they obviously can deal with the decisions during the game making process extremely well, and this takes experience.  Again, it's just ideas about how to proceed.  But they are certainly the most important person on the staff.

[Murgos]

I was under the assumption that lead designers get paid pretty well.

Obviously, it's not just coming up with a design doc.  It's dealign with the ebb and flow of design, constantly making decisions based on resources and problems that arise.  But in the end, they are still basically getting paid, and often highly rewarded as the 'rockstars' of gaming, basically just for their ideas.

First, I never said there were NO new ideas introduced or that the few capable of doing it consistantly weren't well recognized.  Secondly, those guys positions would fall mostly into the realm of Project Manager in any other branch of engineering.  I don't think major game design is what you think it is.  If you actually look at 98% of what those guys produce today, it's the same thing they produced yesterday with evolutionary changes.

I won't argue the point with you about the value of ideas though, there have been threads here before and as I said there are plenty of business types who can explain it in real detail with more than just anecdotal evidence.  If you don't think it's true just try and get someone to pay you for an idea.

[Venkman]

Lead Designer does not mean leading a team of people in a groupthink circle jerk of invention. It means defining the idea and leading the execution. This is mostly a long series of micro-designs of the features that, in aggregate, flesh out the system over time. And all of that is measured by the stuff that goes into developing it.

Ideas alone are not valuable. Everyone's got them. Ideas with the ability to execute is what matters. And this means gaining the confidence of VC/management, usually most easily done through precedent, and populated by people who wouldn't be able to distinguish between the quality of ideas but know sure as shit how to measure the quality of execution.

This is one main reason why so many people in these industries started at a technical level, even those luminaries and icons who now, after years of experience and success, could sit in a room and invent all day. But don't.

[MrHat]

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=163207

Computer and Videogames says, on good sources, that the next Blizzard announcement is Starcraft: MMO.

[Simond]

Please let it have space combat.

[schild]

Look. I hate to say it. But Gamespot ALREADY confirmed WITH Blizzard that they had no plans for other MMOGs.

I mean, really.

Comeon.

[Venkman]

So maybe now I'm right and it's Vivendi but not necessarily Blizzard? Or did you forget to format that for green? ;)

Also:

World of Warcraft has topped 6 million subscribers

6? No way they lost almost 3mil in the time since LoTRO launched, so is CVG just quoting from some piece of paper they found when cleaning out the basement?

[schild]

CVG is just being speculative. They're an obsolete magazine. They need to get their kicks where they can. Right or not, they're just going on educated guesses me thinks.

[Xerapis]

So I'm guessing I should maybe try to show up for this Blizzard announcement thingy in a couple weeks?

Since I'm here and all....

[sinij]

SC:MMO makes no sense, it will compete with WoW in fuzzle-bashing market.

[schild]

Starcraft MMO makes fine sense. Some people just don't like elves.

I just don't feel they should have reskinned WoW so fast. Yes, having both on the market would likely make Blizzard/VUG bigger than EA just on account of those 2 games. And the money might go on to fund some amazing things. But it still irks me that they didn't go with Diablo Online first, if only for the gameplay changes.

Largely irrelevant though since all 3 will eventually share space in the market.

[Teleku]

Who's to say that they will just reskin WoW?  Theres really no point.  I'm betting they will actually make a fairly different type of game if they do go for a SC: MMO.  Blizzard does try to add originality with the new iterations of their games (They were trying to really create something new with the total RTS/RPG hybrid for Warcraft 3, but looked at what they developed and decided it wasn't fun, scrapped it, and redid it with a more RTS focus.  They still were pretty original with the RPG concepts they added into Warcraft 3).  Since they will be sharing market space, and they already are doing the more traditional type of MMO with WoW, I'm betting it will be fairly different type of gameplay, if they do go the SC route.  Which I actually hope so, because it would be nice to see what a well funded and actually competent game development house could do trying to make a nonstandard MMO.

[Typhon]

I think they are doing an MMO.  I think it's SC.  I think it's not a WoW-style RGP, although I think the player will have an avatar (for player retention).  I'm not aware of a successful MMO RTS, or even something that smells like it could have been success.  Given what Blizzard has produced/tried to produce, I think they think that the pure-RTS days have passed.  I think WoWs success has cemented that viewpoint within Blizzard.

There have been some (arguably) successful/near-miss MMO FPS games (Pl anteside).  Blizzard has some technical FPS experience/code base with the Ghost exercise.  The SC IP lends itself to FPS.  I think that massive-scale FPS matches are still too technically challenging to be done satisfactorily, and I think that Blizzard also likes that instanced combat makes for even matches.  So we're talking squad-level FPS done with voice-comm and RTS-style controls for the squad leader, facing off against PvE and PvP enemies.  May as well add in some RTS-style map objectives (defense, offense, resource gathering, retreat to other side of map, etc) to provide for variation in gameplay.  RTS elements also allow an instance

Oddly, I think the IP is also a drawback here.  Three incompatible sides (4, if you consider Kerigan a side) locked in a genocide-bent death struggle.  To create a "static slice of time"-style MMO RPG is not going to be very satisfying to anyone.  At the same time, I don't think letting the outcome of the player battles decide the progression of the IP for you is a good idea.  The only thing I can think to do is have the Zerg/Kerigan be perceived as the common enemy (read: NPC) and downgrade the war between the Protoss and the Human factions to a boarder struggle (PvPvE).  This seems to make sense from a player perspective as well - 1) how much avatar buy-in can you build with a bug, 2) much of the Zerg forces are melee-style, which doesn't fit well with a FPS game, 3) how would you model the UI with burrowing?

PC factions are therefore Protoss and Human, battles fought between Protoss/Human can have mid-term consequences (taking/losing planets, asteroid belts, etc).  Use the Zerg to be the spoiler - a PC faction must balance between figthing the opposing PC faction, and containing the Zerg, focusing too much on the former will cause a loss of ground on the latter (and vice-versa).

... but I'm a wild-eyed optimist

[CassandraR]

That seems like a decent plan Typhon but if they make a Starcraft MMO and don't let me play the zerg then I am going to be serious pissed off. Grr. :)

[lariac]

Couldn't they just use the LOTRO feature where you get to play the mob?

[sinij]

Who's to say that they will just reskin WoW? 

They are simply not capable of anything better. Just look at WoW - its DECADES behind of anything on the market ideas-wise, even in PvE segment. Can you believe they still don't have player housing or non-raiding endgame?

[LK]

Who's to say that they will just reskin WoW? 

They are simply not capable of anything better. Just look at WoW - its DECADES behind of anything on the market ideas-wise, even in PvE segment. Can you believe they still don't have player housing or non-raiding endgame?

Yes, I can.  Player Housing needs to serve some sort of gameplay utility to justify what I imagine is an increased amount of database space to hold all the information that can occur with player housing.  Plus, the world's static, and static worlds typically do not feature player housing.  FFXI does good player housing, but that's because it is all instanced, and already includes some functions that WoW does, like banking.  They still have some innovative things like how the furniture affects your character and gardening that also sets them apart, but designing such systems into WoW would feel copycat at best, and would need something unique that is all WoW's own.

Plus, I like how inns are the mainstay for an adventurer's "home", just like any wandering hero type such as the characters you play in WoW.

Non-raiding endgame? Uh...PvP?  Battlegrounds? Arenas?

[Typhon]

DAOC put what I thought was pretty decent player housing into their game... which didn't keep players from leaving in droves when Mythic changed the game in a way that disrupted PvP by forcing PvE (Trials of Atlantis).  A metric ass ton of people are playing WoW, which does not have housing.  CoX put in super group bases (guild housing) and it scored very low with players when compared with the ability to customize characters or combat (especially given the amount of effort the CoX team put into housing)

This indicates to me that housing is not a game feature that many people consider "core".  It's nice if it's there, but not a deal breaker if it's not.  My take is that Blizzard made a good value judgement on what their playerbase wants in a game.

Not to say I'm completely insensitive to your desire to have housing.  I won't be totally happy with an MMO game until it has Oni-style combat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oni_(computer_game)), but I think I can see clear to the viewpoint that games without Oni-style combat do not de facto suck.

[Venkman]

Who's to say that they will just reskin WoW? 

They are simply not capable of anything better. Just look at WoW - its DECADES behind of anything on the market ideas-wise, even in PvE segment. Can you believe they still don't have player housing or non-raiding endgame?

As an aside: housing requires more than just grinding components. You need a reason to have them at all, which includes a lot of features WoW just doesn't have. What's housing without player vendors without something worth selling beyond drops which means a crafting game that matters? And you forgot the other endgame of PvP.

Back on topic: Consider the current market for Starcraft, and the type of game it is, and how long that market has been over where this announcement will be made, and the sort of breadth of experiences that originate from that territory. Then compare to what is the "obvious" method for doing a Western-MMO with a really strong IP (and does anyone think the SC IP is anywhere as strong as Warcraft?). The rules for SC MMO are much looser.

Maybe it'll be three-dimensional WoW. Maybe that's why they added flying mounts with BC, as the engine for SC. Or maybe it'll be an MMORTS. Or maybe they'll do what they always do, pick a genre that is reaching it's peak in relevance and capping by cribbing the best of the features offered.

[Teleku]

Who's to say that they will just reskin WoW? 

They are simply not capable of anything better. Just look at WoW - its DECADES behind of anything on the market ideas-wise, even in PvE segment. Can you believe they still don't have player housing or non-raiding endgame?

As I always say, I thought they were very innovative by pretty much being the first MMO to be brave enough to remove most the suck and actually release a game that didn't kick me in the balls every time I try to play it.   

They actually have stuff in place for implementing instanced player housing, but never got around to it, choosing to work on other things.  I recall them saying they are planning on patching it in though.  But as others have said, player housing is entirely a pointless side distraction that really adds nothing to the game (since in this world and most others, it needs to be instanced).  So thats a pretty stupid thing to judge them on.  No non-raiding end game?  Uh, what about the massive amounts of PvP (BG's, Arena, or fucking around the world killing people in mass) that most people spend their 70 lives doing?  Or the shit tons of 5 mans they do (non-raiding). 

What other major MMOs out there offer an end game thats not raiding and not PvP?

WoW is exactly up to speed on all the current ideas in MMO land, and I think most games that have been developed since it came out are heavily influenced by the way blizzard approached designing it.  Also, as I have said, the differences between Warcraft 2 and 3, and Diablo 1 and 2, are actually pretty staggering.  They do try to come out with very new ideas and don't just make a more shiny version of the old game.

So yes, I do think they are quite capable of doing it. 


Of course, they will probably punch me in the face by announcing World of Starcraft in Korea, but thats how life usually goes for me, so I'm use to it.

[Akkori]

Being up to speed on what current MMO's are doing is, to me at least, the problem. Obviously WoW is entertaining. But the is certainly a market for those things WoW left out. For me, what it usually comes down to is why there can't be a single game that includes all the stuff in Wow, plus things like Eve, AtitD and so on... in a sci-fi world? If anyone can do it due to the money available, couldn't Blizzard?

[WindupAtheist]

World of Starcraft has been a given ever since Vivendi realized what a cash cow WoW is, and if you think otherwise then you smoke crack.  What, you think Vivendi is going to collect a couple billion dollars from MMOtards and then say anything besides "AGAIN!! MORE!!!"

[Azazel]

Starcraft MMO makes fine sense. Some people just don't like elves.

I just don't feel they should have reskinned WoW so fast. Yes, having both on the market would likely make Blizzard/VUG bigger than EA just on account of those 2 games. And the money might go on to fund some amazing things. But it still irks me that they didn't go with Diablo Online first, if only for the gameplay changes.

Largely irrelevant though since all 3 will eventually share space in the market.

Actually, it seems that a fuckton of people like elves. A lot. Though there's nothing like projecting one's own personal biases onto a much larger demographic.

I think it'd be more accurate to say that a lot of people would like a quality sci-fi MMO game that's neither SWG nor EVE.

[schild]

I think it'd be more accurate to say that a lot of people would like a quality sci-fi MMO game that's neither SWG nor EVE.

So what you mean is, people who don't like elves want an MMOG.

If you don't like elves or can't tolerate them, that pretty much wipes out the entire fantasy genre.

My only worry is that Starcraft doesn't have enough real, interesting lore yet.

Another game would help that. Maybe... Starcraft 2?

[Teleku]

Maybe they'll go for the double wammy and announce both at the same time?  Have a Starcraft 2 to set up the story, then release the Starcraft MMO for the ongoing, ala Warcraft?  I thought I remember hearing awhile ago that blizzard had been picking up RTS people.

I know its retarded, but a man can dream, can't he? 

[schild]

If anyone's dreaming, it's me. Because they aren't going to announce my precious Diablo Online.

Which would, easily, be the cheaper of the two to create. Diablo would have near infinite replay also, just keep adding items and tilesets.

So easy.

Diablo Online should really just be GW ripoff in how they structure the action. As for gameplay, clickclickclickclick. Just with a bunch of other people in giant randomized dungeons. Goddamn I swoon.

An MMOG with hardcore mode.

I think I just wet myself.

[tkinnun0]

There already is Diablo Online, and its name is Dungeon Runners. Sad but true.

[Ironwood]

Who's to say that they will just reskin WoW? 

They are simply not capable of anything better. Just look at WoW - its DECADES behind of anything on the market ideas-wise, even in PvE segment. Can you believe they still don't have player housing or non-raiding endgame?

Oh shut up.

[Miasma]

I've changed my mind, I don't want to play six zerglings, the battlecruiser class will suit my purposes.




I found two fake images from an old April fool's joke too:

[MrHat]

Even fake, I'd be all over that.

[Lantyssa]

I've changed my mind, I don't want to play six zerglings, the battlecruiser class will suit my purposes.

I prefer pet classes.  Think I can get a Carrier?

[Miasma]

I've changed my mind, I don't want to play six zerglings, the battlecruiser class will suit my purposes.

I prefer pet classes.  Think I can get a Carrier?

Okay.

[Morat20]

I've changed my mind, I don't want to play six zerglings, the battlecruiser class will suit my purposes.

I prefer pet classes.  Think I can get a Carrier?

Dammit. Now I have to go play Starcraft again.

[Lantyssa]

Awesome!  Thanks Miasma!