StarCraft 2 announcement on the 19th of May

[Wolf]

Nah, Warcraft 3 and SC1 both did the paper/rock/scissor thing.  It just means that you choose a particular build strategy based around a few unit types and hope your opponent doesnt build or has time to change his build to something that counters yours.  Trying to build a few of everything doesnt seem to ever work great since you cant micro manage everything to be its most effecitive, and you wont have the time to upgrade the wide array of units you have to their full potential.

Or you could just expand 2 times, build 15 Hatcharies and build a gadzillion hydralisks. TRY AND COUNTER THAT, BITCH.

Sigh, Starcraft  :-D

[Ironwood]

And when your wave breaks against the massed bunkers and locked down tanks, well, you're pretty fucked.

[Wolf]

I could show you ;)
Turtling never worked in Starcraft ;)

[Ironwood]

Oh, it's ON.

[Megrim]

More than merely unit vs unit countering, the introduction of complete fog of war coverage for high ground will add significant complexity to terrain - High ground units can now shower death and destruction from above with impunity (in SC1 the units on high ground reveal themselves when they fire - and open themselves to counterattack). As such, high ground might stand as high in strategic importance as choke points - and it is more important than ever to have air units to accompany your ground troops.

Or you can build one of the new ground units that can move up and down levels to scout.

ebay float 4 lyfe.

[Paelos]

Err, what else do you want?  Just build a bunch of random units with no real strength or weakness's over each other and throw them all in a blob at a base?  Can you give an example of the types of RTS you like?  Blizzard goes for the heavy paper/rock/scissor approach, which allows for a fairly deep tactical game (for an RTS) that remains fast paced and fun.  Not saying you have to like it, but I always enjoyed it.  It's a big step up from many other RTS's (past and present) where you just build up a blob of the best unit for your side as fast as you can and insta win.  Blizzard, as usual, is just bending realism to better allow for fun gameplay.  This is fine.  If I want a terribly realistic (sort of) strategy game, I'll just start up a new game of HoI2 ;).

No, having no real str/wkn over other types of units would be stupid. Notice that I used the word TYPES. I loved AoE2 because you classified units into their categories which had advantages over another category, and then you had sub-units within that category that were tradeoffs based on damage/speed/defense/etc. The problem I would have with a game so entrenched in the idea of r/p/s would be that it basically becomes a wing and a prayer instead of strategy. You are essentially hoping your exact mix of units is going to be the right mix against the other players exact mix. It's not like, well I'm focused primarly around a quick ground strategy vs. a long term cav/archer strat, etc. I think if you get too specific you turn it into as much a game of luck as skill.

[Roac]

Hmm.  I think Blizzard tends to do a good job with game development, and am not too worried that they'll fuck up SC2 via very, very basic design flaws.  I don't see this as anything other than a 'must buy' for anyone who likes RTS games to any extent.

[Murgos]

The game play video looked exactly like what I have come to expect from Blizzard, evolutionary changes that are cleaned and polished to a brilliant shine.

I only play an RTS once in a great while (Dawn of War was the last one, other than the demos foe Company of Heroes and that abomination from the TA guy) and I will almost certainly be playing this.

[sinij]

I could show you ;)
Turtling never worked in Starcraft ;)

It does, when its outside your base locking you into your initial 2 spots. 2 hatchery method works great against newbies, experienced player will make you pay for it with early rush and keeping pressure on, you ether lose second spot or will have to dig in and get later pounded by heavy air.

Best counter to it is Iron Maiden rush - bunkers at choke, M&M and stepping tanks up all the way to your base. You won't get enough long ranged air in time to switch from ground to all out air or you won't have enough ground to stop tanks reaching your base.

I find best is to go 6 zergling rush (not super-early one where you compromise your build) then expand and go for cracklings spam/ultralisks. 8 hatcheries can usually spam enough zerglings that at speed+adrenalin and 1/1 upgrade can tear about anything but heavy air down.

[bhodi]

And when your wave breaks against the massed bunkers and locked down tanks, well, you're pretty fucked.

It doesn't break when you throw up the insect swarm. Even though mass hydras was awesome, you generally want to have SOME melee in front -- ultralisks or cracklings work nicely.

It was mostly about the swarm cloud late game versus terrans though. That's what wins you the game.

If someone does what sinji describes, your best bet is to rush for a drop on their base to buy yourself some time. With so many resources invested into just outside your base, theirs will be correspondingly weak. If you're good at the micro, you can do some ugly damage with hydra base harrass. In the endgame, the only thing that saves you versus the damn tank step are massed guardians (which is tough to pull off w/ their damn wraiths)

[Wolf]

Seriously. I'd like to see someone try and stop me from getting my second hatchery in a position to defend my expansion on lost temple. There are drawbacks to it, no arguing there, but nothing involving the building bunkers can even touch me. I'll just write it off to you guys not playing starcraft in a while :)

ps: 1. A bunker costs 150 minerals - that's three marines. 2. Marines inside a bunker can't be stimpacked without having to click like a madman. 3. +3 stimpacked Marines > -3 nonstimpacked ones. If someone wants to play, look me up on irc. I'm almost always ready to go :)

[Morat20]

I'm really the odd man out here -- I prefer playing RTS in a co-op mode. All my strategies are designed around a two-man team, versus either an insane number of NPC teams or another two-man team.

Not that I was ever that good at it, mind you. :)

[sinij]

Seriously. I'd like to see someone try and stop me from getting my second hatchery in a position to defend my expansion on lost temple. There are drawbacks to it, no arguing there, but nothing involving the building bunkers can even touch me. I'll just write it off to you guys not playing starcraft in a while :)

ps: 1. A bunker costs 150 minerals - that's three marines. 2. Marines inside a bunker can't be stimpacked without having to click like a madman. 3. +3 stimpacked Marines > -3 nonstimpacked ones. If someone wants to play, look me up on irc. I'm almost always ready to go :)

Most of the times it will be only 1 bunker, built before deployed tanks available, next to supply depot to make sure you don't try to rush my base or root me out of choke spot. I only have to contain you with bunker, once I have enough tanks I won't have to build anything.

Your second base means on thing - once I show up with my first batch of marines to construct first bunker in ideal choke spot there is nothing you can do about it since you don't have enough units to root me out. When you do get some units you are dealing with a bunker behind supply depot next to supply depot and my range-upgraded marines.

You can't easily fly out - by the time you have any meaningful air transport (2 upgrades for zerg) I will have air to take it down.

To counter bunkers at your choke you can ether a) don't expand early and have enough forces to stop bunker from being completed b) rush air and hope you get more guardians, faster than your opponent gets enough tanks to smash your defenses and just marine/goliath rush few guardians you have c) hope your opponent incompetent enough to leave base open to air attacks.

More often that not I play with bunker/supply and tank being ONLY thing holding choke, and instead deploying tanks at cliff above your second base. By the time you clear that whole mess up I will have 3 bases and will be mass producing heavy air.

[bhodi]

It's iffy, depending on the skill level. Zerg versus terran is a rush for terrans to fight off the mini-rush, almost all good zerg players do the 6 zergling rush, as it doesn't cripple your teching, you can smooth to hydras or rush to air or both for a drop; this is generally easy to absorb assuming the terran has some skill and builds their bunkers within firing range of the SCV cloud. The terran's challenge is then to find out where the zerg expands, see if they go for an early expansion and nail it with marine/firebat combo in the small window between start and completion of the first defensive tentacle (I like three on ST, but will generally go for 1 or 2 on other maps). This is completely possible if they are fast enough and can force the second hatchery to be built in base instead of at the expansion mineral point. Then they can bunker in and by time the battle is decided they should hvae 1-2 untech'd tanks there with siege tech researching (if the marines rushed to siege, which they should versus zerg). If the marines fail at stopping the expansion, however, the counterattack with hydras can spell doom for them, as zerg can get expansions up faster than humans and overwhelm. I don't personally like to go mutas versus humans; I generally favor the hydralisk+lurker drop on main base, especially on LT.

[Akkori]

I must have really missed the boat, having never played against another player. I played exclusively against the computer. Against 4 or 6 AI opponents, you gotta really scramble. But it's also fairly predictable, hence increasing the number of your opponents. I think I still have SC1... I may install and mess with it for a bit.

[bhodi]

Against AI, it's simply turtle and go for mass air -- guardians/battlecruisers/carriers -- boring.

[Wolf]

But, Sinij, you do not have to build a bunker. Why am I even explaining this to you, let's jump online and I'll show you. You never need a bunker anywhere in the game. Ever. Zerg vs Terran is my favourite match up, either side of the coin.

Bhodi has a few valid points, but the thing is that no smart zerg will early rush. It's just so easy to get a second expansion vs a human - he can basically do absolutely nothing to you before he is tech'd up to siege tanks. And by the time he is, you have a second expansion running, you have completely skipped hidras, and you're poking around in his base with 6-12-18 Mutalisks not losing a single one. Mutas/Zerglings and the odd lurker will inflict so much pain on a mid-game terran it's not even funny. You go Mutas, instead of lurkers, to force him to get Valkyries  - which means he has to tech up even more. What the terran has to do to have a chance of winning is skip tanks completely, you just don't need them vs a Zerg. They have their uses, but each tank costs you 100 gas and the upgrade costs 150 and you're better off spending those resources on other things (like definately getting the first Armor upgrade on your marines, and as much attack upgrades as possible). You have to go heavy barracks and try to push in early, before he gets lurkers or mutas, and you have to have a lot of shit to brake through his defences. If you fail to do that you have to go straight up for Valkyries/Science Vessels w/ Irradiate. And continue on pumping Marines and medics and try to get an expansion going. You also have to guard your shit from mutas coming in from behind. If you manage to pump out a couple of vessels you go and hit him hard. If he skipped mutas you can make a Wraith or two and go bug his overlords.

I am going to say this again - I am more than willing to put my money where my mouth is. R U GUYZ? :-D

[Margalis]

Playng the computer in any competitive game is just totally different. When you play the computer, in any game, the winning strategy is to figure out the computer blind-spots and abuse them. Even in Chess where computers are super-advanced there are still specific anti-computer strategies that get employed.

Playing against humans is just so much more fun. They learn. They react. Over time they improve and force you to improve.

I find that competitive games are usually very boring vs. the AI.

[Strazos]

I almost want to install SC and play against get schooled by you guys.

But then again, I've never been huge on rush tactics...I prefer more leisurely play, and teching up to max and just overloading the opposition.

[Morat20]

Penny Arcade mentioned SC2 today. Strangely, they played the game much the way I did:

Gabriel and I played Starcraft, everyone played Starcraft, but for the most part he and I would play two Terran armies against Zerg computer opponents in an effort to simulate Starship Troopers. It might sound like you could only get a couple nights of entertainment out of this scenario, but you'd be underestimating our feelings toward Starships and the proud Troopers that wait within.

We would sometimes play online, though I'm prepared to call those times rare in number. This was never our purpose, and so watching this aspect of the game become a global phenomenon was bizarre - like seeing discarded juice caps become a national pastime. The announcement of Starcraft 2 (kept secret, no doubt, through means nefarious) is perfectly acceptable game news, but most of what the announcement did was to make clear just how potent Starcraft's legacy has been.

(The less said about its harvest of Warhammer 40k, the better. For Blizzard.)

I've seen world-class Starcraft played, and it looks nothing like the game I played with my friends. They aren't just doing the things that we do, only faster. They are operating some kind of Zergling circus; they appear to have taught them tricks. There is a zergling with a ball on its nose, walking on a wire with a long stick. Gabriel and I watched Yellow play at Blizzcon and couldn't really understand it. It was as though he thought in an alien way.

Only it was Terran/Protoss for me and my friends. Admittedly, one of them was an absolute demon with wraiths. Excellent at micro-managing, and could manage devestating wraith attacks with few losses while still fine-tuning production and expanding.

[bhodi]

I almost want to install SC and play against get schooled by you guys.

But then again, I've never been huge on rush tactics...I prefer more leisurely play, and teching up to max and just overloading the opposition.

There is nothing more satisfying after hearing an hour's diatribe from a friend about how awesome he is at the game and how his battlecruiser army rolls over everything (including you if you were to take him on), than to finally play a game and lock down every single one of his "incinvible battlecruiser army" and kill them to a man. With marines.

[Yoru]

I watched the Starcraft 2 video. Their nuclear explosions do not pass muster. 

More shit flying around, bigger flash and bigger particle effects, ya bastards.

I did okay in a standup fight, but I much preferred to team up with one or two other folks. I'd send little token forces to help push the front line, but way in the back would be an ungodly farm of Terran Command Centers with armed nuclear silos ready to go.

You haven't lived until you've seen a man go sheet-white after hearing "NU- NU- NU- NU- NU- NU- NU- NU- NUCLEAR LAUNCH DETECTED".

[Strazos]

Fuck you guys.

/installs Starcraft + Brood War

Who wants to play? I'm an easy target, so if you're feeling down today, beat up on my pitiful efforts to play this damn game.

[Riggswolfe]

I always sucked at online Starcraft. I don't play these games fast. I turtle and do tech research by instinct. It's also a blind spot in Civ IV though I'm better at making myself expand in that game.

[schild]

Turtling is not a legitimate way to play RTS titles. There's a reason the end of most tech trees these days are instant win buttons.

[ajax34i]

I'd like to understand this discussion even though I've never played Starcraft, so, sorry for asking, but what is "turtling"?

[MrHat]

I'll see about picking up YET another copy of SC + BW this weekend sometime.

[schild]

I'd like to understand this discussion even though I've never played Starcraft, so, sorry for asking, but what is "turtling"?

Sitting in your base while growing tech and being a bitch.

It is not a legitimate strategy in most games anymore because of the speed of rebuilding an army. Only a few games could you really turtle legitimately, Rise of Nations being one of them. And even then, it was only really easy if you had the terra cotta army wonder.

Edit: Ironically, if you had the terra cotta army, you had NO reason to turtle.

[Morat20]

Turtling is not a legitimate way to play RTS titles. There's a reason the end of most tech trees these days are instant win buttons.

One of my favorite missions in the original SC (single-player campaign) was like the second or third. Mission Conditions: "Survive for 30 minutes". First time I played that was sheer awesome.

Wasn't hard enough, but was awesome.

I turtle by instinct too, behind impenetrable walls of Protoss defense cannons and build my mighty fleet. It sucks against other players, but it's fun as hell against two or three Zerg opponents.

[Roac]

One of my favorite missions in the original SC (single-player campaign) was like the second or third. Mission Conditions: "Survive for 30 minutes". First time I played that was sheer awesome.

Yes.  I made it first time through, but only barely.  They'd busted through my defenses, were shredding my camp, and I'd backed into a corner and ringed off my units defensively just holding out for the timer.  I only had a handful of units left when the timer clicked off.  Ten years now and I still remember it vividly, heh.  Second time I played it, it wasn't nearly as fun.  Had enough stuff stacked up so that their final wave broke, and the timer ticked by with nothing left to fight.

[Morat20]

Yes.  I made it first time through, but only barely.  They'd busted through my defenses, were shredding my camp, and I'd backed into a corner and ringed off my units defensively just holding out for the timer.  I only had a handful of units left when the timer clicked off.  Ten years now and I still remember it vividly, heh.  Second time I played it, it wasn't nearly as fun.  Had enough stuff stacked up so that their final wave broke, and the timer ticked by with nothing left to fight.

Same here. First time through I lost half the base, survived only by basically throwing down bunkers and contracting around the ore. If I hadn't been playing with spider mines right before the few waves, I wouldn't have made it at all.

Ran through it last night (I'm replaying the single-player campaign -- never did finish it the first time around) and it was easy. A few bunkers at the choke points, an SCV to repair them between battles, long-distance ammo for the Marines and some towers. Lay down spider mines in the corridors near the end. Good stuff.

[Strazos]

Heh, the AI still rapes me. I loaded up that Lost Temple map that everyone seems to love. I got hosed twice, though the second time I did actual attacks and stuff. Unfortunately, my marines/firebats backed up by medics get hosed by protoss defense cannons. I tried to take out the power crystals first, but well...the cannons 1-shot my infantry.

I still suck at this game. Also, I suck at being aggressive in this game. At the end, I still had a few thousand minerals left, though I thought I had build a sizeable army of 2 full marine groups, half a group of medics, some tanks, wraiths, valkeryies, and 1 battlecruiser. I got hosed by another terran AI who had all kinds of fully-upgraded units.


Stupid vespene gas.

[Kail]

Heh, the AI still rapes me. I loaded up that Lost Temple map that everyone seems to love. I got hosed twice, though the second time I did actual attacks and stuff. Unfortunately, my marines/firebats backed up by medics get hosed by protoss defense cannons. I tried to take out the power crystals first, but well...the cannons 1-shot my infantry.

Yeah, ditto.  Reinstalled last night, fired up some custom map.  Got three bases going as the Zerg, figured that was pretty much an "I win" situation, but they kept irradiating my mutalisks (and whacking my guardians with valkyries) and hitting my ground troops with siege tanks (out of thirty zerglings, maybe six actually made it to the tanks).  Eventually ran out of minerals in all three bases and quit.  Aaaargh!

[Calantus]

Turtling is not a legitimate way to play RTS titles. There's a reason the end of most tech trees these days are instant win buttons.

One of my favorite missions in the original SC (single-player campaign) was like the second or third. Mission Conditions: "Survive for 30 minutes". First time I played that was sheer awesome.

Wasn't hard enough, but was awesome.

I turtle by instinct too, behind impenetrable walls of Protoss defense cannons and build my mighty fleet. It sucks against other players, but it's fun as hell against two or three Zerg opponents.

I'm replaying SC now and did that mission a couple days ago. What I did was throw waves of marines at the zerg and killed them all in 15 minutes and ate dinner while it counted down the extra 15 minutes. I just hate defending on SC, you get harassed from everywhere and have to react to what the enemy is doing. I prefer them reacting to what I'm doing, more control that way. Plus in that mission they throw like everything at you all at once near the end, but if you go on the offence you get to tear their armies down piecemeal.

Mostly I just go for marine zerg until tanks and reavers hit the battlefield (cause then marines just die), just make 3-4 barracks and constantly pump out marines, sending a group off when they hit 10-12. I love me some tank stomp against the AI as well. All you need is something to handle air and something to see stealth and you just can't lose.

[Morat20]

I'm replaying SC now and did that mission a couple days ago. What I did was throw waves of marines at the zerg and killed them all in 15 minutes and ate dinner while it counted down the extra 15 minutes. I just hate defending on SC, you get harassed from everywhere and have to react to what the enemy is doing. I prefer them reacting to what I'm doing, more control that way. Plus in that mission they throw like everything at you all at once near the end, but if you go on the offence you get to tear their armies down piecemeal.

Mostly I just go for marine zerg until tanks and reavers hit the battlefield (cause then marines just die), just make 3-4 barracks and constantly pump out marines, sending a group off when they hit 10-12. I love me some tank stomp against the AI as well. All you need is something to handle air and something to see stealth and you just can't lose.

Nah, double bunkers, some marines up high, and spider mines in the corridor and you're fine on that mission. I just had one where you had to resuce a downed battlecruiser. I overdefended the battelcruiser (I expected lots of attacks there, and I had one SCV -- got together two bunkers, a barracks, and some towers. Filled the bunkers and the area with marines and firebats.

Realized later that the map was full of zerg -- lots of AA stuff on all approaches to the downed cruiser, and you're supposed to get two dropships in there. I wasted a lot of money on wraiths as I was scouting around. Ended up using a ton of marrines to just blow a hole through the zerg AA and rushed in drop ships behind three sacrifice wraiths.

Next mission was a bit more fun -- got to use leapfrogging seige tanks, backed by science vessels and enough Goliaths to handle the occasional Wraith. Even killed a Battlecruiser with the Goliaths. Leapfrogging seige tanks are too damn fun.