Looking to buy a camcorder..thing.

[SnakeCharmer]

In the market for a camcorder / digital camcorder / whatever.  What brands should I look at, avoid, what is the preferred recording media? 

Ultimately, the movies will end up on DvDs for storage and playback.

[schild]

Buy a camcorder that records straight to DVD or HDD.

And if you can afford it, get a 720P one. Brand? Well, there aren't many shitty brands making DVD/HDD based cameras that do HD.

[SnakeCharmer]

I don't have a HD DVD.  Yet.

Does that matter?

[schild]

You have a computer. For Sure. :) WMP 10, or really anything can run that shit now.

Edit: Ah! I see what you're saying. The DVD ones record on regular DVD, not HD DVD.

[stray]

This is where I part ways with the "HD Revolution" and say get a miniDV cam. There are many more components involved than just getting an HD camera. The time will come when those components will be more conveniently had, but that time is not now.

The biggest problem is having a writable medium that could handle your larger movies (and....hd-dvd/blu-ray players and burners are out of most people's range right now, and not mainstream at all...). And if you don't even have an HDTV at all, then that's another thing to add, of course.

Without that, the best way that you're going to be able to even playback anything is splitting your movies across multiple DVD's, or encoding them for use only on a computer (with H.264/MPEG 4 --- though there are portable players for those codecs too. The newer game consoles, for instance.......Except, why would you want to make movies, which you'd be sharing to all kinds of family and friends, in a format that they couldn't even make use out of?).

[squirrel]

This is where I part ways with the "HD Revolution" and say get a miniDV cam. There are many more components involved than just getting an HD camera. The time will come when those components will be more conveniently had, but that time is not now.

The biggest problem is having a writable medium that could handle your larger movies (and....hd-dvd/blu-ray players and burners are out of most people's range right now, and not mainstream at all...). And if you don't even have an HDTV at all, then that's another thing to add, of course.

Without that, the best way that you're going to be able to even playback anything is splitting your movies across multiple DVD's, or encoding them for use only on a computer (with H.264/MPEG 4 --- though there are portable players for those codecs too. The newer game consoles, for instance.......Except, why you would want to make movies, which you'd be sharing to all kinds of family and friends, in a format that they couldn't even make use out of?).

I have to disagree. The price difference between a decent SD camcorder and a HD one is pretty minimal and you can easily dump your HD video onto DVD's as SD movies. I do it all the time. I have a Canon HV10 HD camcorder and I shoot in 1080i then output to 720p for stuff I watch at home (media PC) or 480p for DVD or whatever other format you want for web, email etc.

[stray]

I was assuming SnakeCharmer didn't have an HDTV -- and maybe not even a monitor that can do 1920x1080 well (so he doesn't have to edit things downscaled).

I could be wrong about that, of course.


I know things can be downgraded to SD, but it just kind of defeats the point if you're going to be the main one who gets use out of the HD features.

OTOH, I guess even taking that into account, it would be nice that you'd still have an HD source (then if Mom and Dad or whoever finally get an HDTV, you could give them a better version of the movie that wouldn't look like shit).

[schild]

I assume this is for home movies? Mini DV is a pain in the ass.

[stray]

I assume this is for home movies? Mini DV is a pain in the ass.

Uh, it's still the standard medium. Even for some HDV cams.


Also, get a Mac. Keke. 

[schild]

Just because something is a standard, does mean it's efficient or useful for home use.

And get a mac? If I was capable, I'd poke you in the eye for even making the joke. Having a mac doesn't make working with DV any easier. Even if Snake STEALS the latest version of premiere it's still not worth working with DV. It's bloated, slow, and shitty (for home videos). While DVDs can be set to AVI or MPG format @ 640x480 or 752x480, and are 20x more easier to deal with. And you fucking know it.

Instead of dealing with start and end points on a fucking tape, he can just pull movie files off a DVD like their porn.

KEEP IT SIMPLE, STUPID.



Edit: Stray, no worries though, nothing but love for you.

[stray]

Because it's a standard, and thousands of people don't have a problem with it, I'm going to blame your woes on software.

That's where I was going with that comment. :P


And yes, a disc can be more convenient for dumping (well, depending if you have plain dvd-r, and have to wait for finalizing -- that isn't convenient at all). It's not as reliable as tape though. Nor does it boot/operate as quickly. Nor do some record in raw DV -- Compressing things at the source isn't exactly ideal, home movies or not.

[EDIT] Not really trying to pick a fight though. Have fun. :)

[schild]

You've never used a newer DVD Recording camcorder (or HDD based), have you?

[Trippy]

Some comments:

The price difference between a high-end consumer SD camcorder and a low-end HD camcorder is pretty small these days. However, you'll need oodles and oodles of hard disk space if you plan on doing lots of HD editing and/or a Blu-Ray recorder to backup your videos and a pretty high end computer to boot.

miniDV is slightly higher quality than DVD recorders (less compression, more bandwidth). However DVD is much much easier to work with and for the lazy you can play them straight in your regular DVD player complete with scene indexes instead of having to fast forward through tape (think DVD vs VHS).

For those that don't like futzing around with the little DVD discs or tapes, camcorders that record to built-in hard drives have come down in price.

For brands I would look at Sony first. They have a full-range of products that are up-to-date. On the digital camera side I prefer Canon but their consumer camcorder line lags quite a bit behind some of the others out there. Panasonic popularized triple CCD camcorders on the consumer side. I've never used one so I couldn't say how much better if at all they are to a regular single CCD digital camcorder but if color fidelity is important to you you should give them a look as well.

Edit: took out the "mini" from "mini DVD" since that's something else, added more bandwidth to miniDV.

[stray]

You've never used a newer DVD Recording camcorder (or HDD based), have you?

Yes, I've used them all --- I wouldn't even say HDD is better, simply because it can't be stored conveniently outside a computer or the cam itself.

As for DVD, yeah... Sorry, but convenience (whether real or percieved) doesn't trump quality. An hour of raw DV is going to take 10+ GB of storage. DVD can't handle anything other than a fraction of miniDV. That's why there's compression involved -- and as far as I'm concerned, I'd rather not have my source files be MPEG's or AVI's just for the sake of convenience.

To each his own though. There's a use for that kind of thing, I understand.


Also, I'd say the whole disc/camera thing isn't going to be cool until we can use burnable Blu-Ray/HD-DVD discs inside of them (or rather, when they're more affordable. I think some are actually in the works or are made already).

[stray]

OK, one final word about this. I'll make a compromise. If there's an h.264/avc cam with a DVD-RW/RAM medium, then I could go for that. :)


* Snakecharmer's going to be pissed to see how we've derailed his thread. *

[schild]

Doesn't it really come down to the fact he's not making independent films, is working at home and wants an easy backup solution? I mean, all signs point to me being right the first time despite your opinion. Just putting it out there.

[stray]

MiniDV doesn't assume independent films. And I'd say as far as backup solutions go, tape is better. Better quality wise than a DVD. And better than a hard disk simply because.... it's independent from a computer.

[schild]

MiniDV doesn't assume independent films. And I'd say as far as backup solutions go, tape is better. Better quality wise than a DVD. And better than a hard disk simply because.... it's independent from a computer.

I have a $1700 DV Cam. It's awesome. It is also a pain in the fucking ass compared to DVD or HDD. See, the problem here is you're 100% quality. When really, all 3 things are so far above the previous formats that, unless you're going to be doing heavy editing, they're all comparable. And really, DVD ISN'T that much better than HDD particularly with some of the settings on the new Sony Cams. And it's minimally better than some of the new DVD cams. I'm thinking about UPGRADING to a HDD based cam, just to give you an idea of how much a pain in the ass a DV Cam is.

That said, want to buy my dv cam (It was 1700 when I bought it)?

[stray]

No thanks, I have two already.

[Trippy]

OK, one final word about this. I'll make a compromise. If there's an h.264/avc cam with a DVD-RW/RAM medium, then I could go for that. :)

* Snakecharmer's going to be pissed to see how we've derailed his thread. *

Real-time H.264 encoding would take some seriously expensive hardware. Not going to happen anytime soon on a consumer-level hand held device (there are currently standalone rackmounted solutions for professional broadcasters).

Edit: NM I'm wrong. HDD recorders than can do HD can in fact record real-time H.264 using the AVCHD format. This is for HD format, though, not SD.

[Trippy]

MiniDV doesn't assume independent films. And I'd say as far as backup solutions go, tape is better. Better quality wise than a DVD. And better than a hard disk simply because.... it's independent from a computer.

I have a $1700 DV Cam. It's awesome. It is also a pain in the fucking ass compared to DVD or HDD. See, the problem here is you're 100% quality. When really, all 3 things are so far above the previous formats that, unless you're going to be doing heavy editing, they're all comparable.

With miniDV and SD material you don't get compression artifacts including from fast moving scenes because things are so lightly compressed. With DVD and HDD recorders, because they use single-pass MPEG-2 to compress things, you can get compression artifacts especially in scenes with a lot of motion in it. If all you are doing is recording your baby making funny noises or crawling around on the floor DVD recorders will work fine and as some of us have been saying are much more convenient than miniDV. If you are trying to record your daughter playing basketball, though, you might want to consider miniDV if quality is important to you.

[SnakeCharmer]

I was assuming SnakeCharmer didn't have an HDTV -- and maybe not even a monitor that can do 1920x1080 well (so he doesn't have to edit things downscaled).

I could be wrong about that, of course.


I know things can be downgraded to SD, but it just kind of defeats the point if you're going to be the main one who gets use out of the HD features.

OTOH, I guess even taking that into account, it would be nice that you'd still have an HD source (then if Mom and Dad or whoever finally get an HDTV, you could give them a better version of the movie that wouldn't look like shit).

I've got an HD TV (two actually), but no HD DVD player.  Other than a friend, noone else I know has an HD TV or DVD player.  And the likelyhood of them getting one in the next 5 years is pretty slim to none.

Essentially, all I'm looking for out of a cam is this (which probably what I should have put in to begin with :P ):
1)  Home movies of friends and family
2)  Home movies of my baby boy growing up

In a nutshell, that's it.  But I *do* want something that is:
1)  Great picture quality
2)  Easy to use so that I don't have to teach a class to my wife to use it
3)  Easy to transfer to my computer HD or external HD for storage and/or making movies
4)  Reliable and tough
5)  Won't be completely obsolete in 5 years (probably impossible)

[schild]

Given that, I'd go HDD.

The number of ways a mini-dv player can be broken is astronomical. They are delicate and a babies hand could wreck them.

No camera can take being dropped, obviously. Get it somewhere with a replacement plan, whatever the cost.

HDD is going to be the easiest to use out of all of them. Other than the whole, pop the dvd out of the camera and into the dvd player of the dvd-rom ones.

Your wife would have no issues, I think. Depends on how technophobic she is...

[Trippy]

How much are you willing to spend?

2)  Easy to use so that I don't have to teach a class to my wife to use it

When you say easy to use do you mean easy to operate the camcorder itself? Or easy to make DVDs with?

[Trippy]

Given that, I'd go HDD.

The number of ways a mini-dv player can be broken is astronomical. They are delicate and a babies hand could wreck them.

No camera can take being dropped, obviously. Get it somewhere with a replacement plan, whatever the cost.

HDD is going to be the easiest to use out of all of them. Other than the whole, pop the dvd out of the camera and into the dvd player of the dvd-rom ones.

Your wife would have no issues, I think. Depends on how technophobic she is...

The DVD recorders are the easiest to use. With an HDD camcorder you still have to make a DVD to view it on the TV unless you are willing to keep your camcorder tethered to the TV when you aren't recording with it.

[SnakeCharmer]

Given that, I'd go HDD.

I've been thinking the same thing.

The number of ways a mini-dv player can be broken is astronomical. They are delicate and a babies hand could wreck them.

No camera can take being dropped, obviously. Get it somewhere with a replacement plan, whatever the cost.

HDD is going to be the easiest to use out of all of them. Other than the whole, pop the dvd out of the camera and into the dvd player of the dvd-rom ones.

Is there cams that use full size DVDs??  I've searched, but so far it's eluded me.

Your wife would have no issues, I think. Depends on how technophobic she is...

Low-Mid level of technophobia.  Has no problems setting the clock on the VCR, can play DVD's with ease (including setting the receiver to play in various manners of surround).  Can download pictures from the digicam and burn to CD.

How much are you willing to spend?

2)  Easy to use so that I don't have to teach a class to my wife to use it

When you say easy to use do you mean easy to operate the camcorder itself? Or easy to make DVDs with?

I'd like to set a budget of about 650-750, but would be willing to go as high as 1k for something that will last.  But I don't want to buy more than I need.  I'm a simple guy, really.  I just need to point and shoot, then download to HD.

I figure the whole 'making DVDs' is another animal.  Topic of discussion for another time, since I'm assuming there's a good bit of software to do that for me.  By easy to use, I mean, turn it on, record, transfer to HD.

[Trippy]

I'd like to set a budget of about 650-750, but would be willing to go as high as 1k for something that will last.  But I don't want to buy more than I need.  I'm a simple guy, really.  I just need to point and shoot, then download to HD.

If you are willing to spend that much, HDV is a viable option (assuming you don't need to upgrade your PC to handle it). Playback will be slightly inconvenient for now but remember these are movies of your baby. 30 years from now when you watch them again (assuming you can actually play them back that far into the future) wouldn't you rather them to have 4x the detail compared to SD video? :-D

Camcorders are pretty simple to operate. On/Off. Record/Pause. Zoom In/Out. That's about it for the basic operations. One thing to consider, though, is how it fits in your hand. They come in all sorts of shapes and sizes and some may be more comfortable for your hands or your wive's hands than others. If you can, go to a store with lots of different models and play with them. If you want to see what's generally available visit B & H and check out their camcorder section.

[SnakeCharmer]

Nice, thanks for the input :D

[schild]

I've been looking for a camcorder to replace my current one when I start traveling again. This is the kind of thing I'm looking at. Though I've heard great things about the higher end 1080i native mini-dvd recorders like this one and this one.

If you're willing to spend up to a grand, get a 1080i camcorder. You'll appreciate it about a thousand times more.

[Ironwood]

I'm currently looking to purchase a camwhore.

Can anyone help me out ?

[schild]

I'm currently looking to purchase a camwhore.

Can anyone help me out ?

brides.ru

[Trippy]

I've been looking for a camcorder to replace my current one when I start traveling again. This is the kind of thing I'm looking at. Though I've heard great things about the higher end 1080i native mini-dvd recorders like this one and this one.

If you're willing to spend up to a grand, get a 1080i camcorder. You'll appreciate it about a thousand times more.

I thought you didn't like tapes. Why not get the HDD model. It's the same price.

[schild]

I linked to the wrong thing. Thanks for catching it.

[stray]

Too bad you can't replace the hard drive in it. 30GB is kind of dinky (maybe four hours --- but for traveling, you're going to have to accessorize it with a laptop, with, preferably, an external hdd.....Unless you expect your travels to only net you 4 hours of footage).

Secondly, while I might suck Sony cock elsewhere, you'll be stuck using Vegas for that thing (because of the proprietary 264 implementation used by Sony). Perhaps by the time you actuallly get it, you'll be in better luck --- But even Sony's own support just happened recently. It'll be a bit for others to do something.

Not trying to hate. Just a head's up.

[Trippy]

Too bad you can't replace the hard drive in it. 30GB is kind of dinky (maybe four hours --- but for traveling, you're going to have to accessorize it with a laptop, with, preferably, an external hdd.....Unless you expect your travels to only net you 4 hours of footage).

Secondly, while I might suck Sony cock elsewhere, you'll be stuck using Vegas for that thing (because of the proprietary 264 implementation used by Sony). Perhaps by the time you actuallly get it, you'll be in better luck --- But even Sony's own support just happened recently. It'll be a bit for others to do something.

Not trying to hate. Just a head's up.

AVCHD is not proprietary in the sense something like UMD is. It's a joint specification between Sony and Panasonic and they are licensing it out to other people. Editing it is still a pain right now but almost all the major video editing vendors have said they will be supporting it.