Aion - The Tower of Eternity

[DLRiley]

What is the acceptable time to max level in a DIKU these days.  5 days played?  Originally wow was around 7-10.

Make it 1 day and we have ourselves a revolutionary mmo.

[Falconeer]

No.

CRPG have been grindy since forever. What makes them interesting (?) is progression mixed with a plot and characters.
Max level in 1 day is irrilevant. What next? Different forms of grind.

Make it with meaningful plot and characters perfectly molded in the online world and we have ourselves a revolutionary mmo. But then the content would run out anyway and the game would be "over".

I really can't see any revoltion coming into PvE MMO, other than pure action figting style, a la God of War. Or if they finally find a way to have insane amounts of content, and a plot and meaningful characters perfectly molded with the online world.

[DLRiley]

No.

CRPG have been grindy since forever. What makes them interesting (?) is progression mixed with a plot and characters.
Max level in 1 day is irrilevant. What next? Different forms of grind.

Make it with meaningful plot and characters perfectly molded in the online world and we have ourselves a revolutionary mmo. But then the content would run out anyway and the game would be "over".

I really can't see any revoltion coming into PvE MMO, other than pure action figting style, a la God of War. Or if they finally find a way to have insane amounts of content, and a plot and meaningful characters perfectly molded with the online world.

I think you don't understand something extremely crucial. Grind kills gameplay AND story. The game begins at max, and until developers truly understand that their games will flop like...a multimillion dollar flop. What grind does to gameplay is astounding. No matter how great the combat is in God of War if God of War was an mmo and followed the time sink + gold sink (or inversely time sink OR gold sink) = WIN, then it would flop. People DO get tired, people DO NOT want to stare at the same animations over and over again even if there are 1000 different ones. No matter how engaging the gameplay people eventually find it old. Is what console game reviewers call repetitive gameplay, you know that feeling in a single player game that no matter how cool/revolutionary a move set is, doing it 100000000 times automatically makes you forget how awesome it is.

Grind burns the story. Grind makes advancement more important than the story, grind makes players prioritize getting loot/rewards over understanding whats going on. No matter how elaborate the quest chains are if the players aren't max level they simply don't care. Grind is an alter and story is sacrificed to it, when Bioware makes their stab at the mmo industry they will either learn that lesson or say they learned that lesson and make the exact same mistakes ALL developers have been making since "forever".

[Falconeer]

Can't read all your stuff. What is grind and what is not was discussed around here so many times.

Grind isn't a fact, it's subjective. WoW was grindy to me. Wasn't for you, or some other millions. There are no universal conditions that once satisfied define "grind" for everyone other than "I'm bored, this is so grindy", which can occurr in any game after any amount of time. 5 minutes, 5days, 5 weeks, 5 months.

What I said is ALL Computer RPG (online or not) has REPETITIONS of bland actions at their core, over and over. Finding the balance is the egg of Columbus, but right now everyone out there is balancing repetition with itself. What I'd call a revolution would be to balance repetition (fighting) with something really juicy like masterful and meaningful (it's online!) storytelling. Which, for example, is what make me endure the repetition at the core of the Final Fantasy series (or any other C/J-RPG), which would be unbearable if it wasn't for plot, characters and they way they are presented.

[Venkman]

What is the acceptable time to max level in a DIKU these days.  5 days played?  Originally wow was around 7-10.

There's a couple of questions in there. I prefer to consider the time between one new key ability and the next, or the pace at which one is advancing through a story arc with clearly defined events (like WotLK but unlike BC, for example). If it takes me 10 hours of play to learn one new ability, or make at least one critical character-changing choice, it's probably too long.

The "speed to cap" measure really only applies to those predisposed to grinding anyway. They enter a game assuming the levels are a tutorial to be endured until the real game begins. As such, "grind" is a perception based more on personal style than any fundamental game mechanic. If this grind can't eventually be reduced to some macro-able task that takes no longer than 24 hours played, it's probably too long.

tl;dr version: YMMV based on how you define fun.

[DLRiley]

Can't read all your stuff. What is grind and what is not was discussed around here so many times.

Grind isn't a fact, it's subjective. WoW was grindy to me. Wasn't for you, or some other millions. There are no universal conditions that once satisfied define "grind" for everyone other than "I'm bored, this is so grindy", which can occurr in any game after any amount of time. 5 minutes, 5days, 5 weeks, 5 months.

What I said is ALL Computer RPG (online or not) has REPETITIONS of bland actions at their core, over and over. Finding the balance is the egg of Columbus, but right now everyone out there is balancing repetition with itself. What I'd call a revolution would be to balance repetition (fighting) with something really juicy like masterful and meaningful (it's online!) storytelling. Which, for example, is what make me endure the repetition at the core of the Final Fantasy series (or any other C/J-RPG), which would be unbearable if it wasn't for plot, characters and they way they are presented.

Except RPG are all about story, your advancement makes little difference to the actual gameplay. Advancement IS an mmorpg and even if you have a 1:1 ratio between time spent advancing in power and time spent in story you STILL have a GRINDY ASS GAME on your hand which is NOT fun no matter how much grind a single player RPG has. Its not a matter of whether your story makes up for your grind, that's mmorpg logic, you quest to advance quicker through the content by particapting in a story you don't read and if the game doesn't provide enough quest to push you along the rail tracks that's when you scream bloody murder. You advance through the levels, not the story, if you create a robust story and keep the repetitive task the same, you still have a grind.  If I were to draw a more clear analogy I would say every point of advancement in an mmorpg is to make the game easier. The longer you play the stronger you get the easier the game gets. In a single player rpg you advancement makes the game more difficult. The longer you play the deeper in the story you get, the more your character has to keep track of, and the more you have to think about each encounter.

[Draegan]

What is the acceptable time to max level in a DIKU these days.  5 days played?  Originally wow was around 7-10.

There's a couple of questions in there. I prefer to consider the time between one new key ability and the next, or the pace at which one is advancing through a story arc with clearly defined events (like WotLK but unlike BC, for example). If it takes me 10 hours of play to learn one new ability, or make at least one critical character-changing choice, it's probably too long.

The "speed to cap" measure really only applies to those predisposed to grinding anyway. They enter a game assuming the levels are a tutorial to be endured until the real game begins. As such, "grind" is a perception based more on personal style than any fundamental game mechanic. If this grind can't eventually be reduced to some macro-able task that takes no longer than 24 hours played, it's probably too long.

tl;dr version: YMMV based on how you define fun.

I like the definition of time to new key abilities.  Time to a New Toy.  I think WOW did an amazing job with 70-80 progression in WOTLK.  You never stopped moving, you were always entering new terrain, new territory fighting new bad guys.  I didn't level this way because I zigzagged across the map going out of order but Blizz did a good job feeding you from the corner of the continent to the north.  That really cool ingame movie was awesome in Dragonblight.  Storm Peaks has some awesome quests and I really like the layout of that zone.

TL;DR
Tempo, Progression, New Toys

[Falconeer]

Advancement IS an mmorpg

If "advancement IS an mmorpg", what's the point of your revolutionary max level in 1 day?

[Draegan]

Why do people even try to discuss stuff with that guy?

[DLRiley]

Advancement IS an mmorpg

If "advancement IS an mmorpg", what's the point of your revolutionary max level in 1 day?

If advancement is an mmorpg I can safely say all mmorpg's are piles of trash. Now let me wait for someone to disagree...wait no one disagreeing so the above statement holds true. Currently yes mmorpg's are based on advancement. Is it a good thing? Hell no, it's just one of a long list of reasons why someone who isn't 13 shouldn't be playing mmorpg's. Would it lead to better mmo-games if 90% of the content in game isn't basically a tutorial? Yes.

[Mrbloodworth]

What is the acceptable time to max level in a DIKU these days.  5 days played?  Originally wow was around 7-10.

When was it that MMO's started designing "ends" in persistent worlds?

[Falconeer]

Why Geldon got banned and this guy can break logic in every thread without being publicly grunked?

[Draegan]

What is the acceptable time to max level in a DIKU these days.  5 days played?  Originally wow was around 7-10.

When was it that MMO's started designing "ends" in persistent worlds?

I will not bite your semantics bait.

[Venkman]

I like the definition of time to new key abilities.  Time to a New Toy. 

Good use of "tempo". That basically sums up my thoughts. You'll never get rid of the grind as long as you allow people to advance characters through methodical action alone. The most grind-y Korean titles are the most impacted because they have very little that separates the player from the repetition AND the tempo is all screwy for fans of WoW.

I agree with you on WotLK too. BC was much more compartmentalized by comparison.

Currently yes mmorpg's are based on advancement.

No. Current MMOs are based on character customization/optimization, wrapped within thin narrative to drive players through content in a linear fashion (if they choose to ride the rails). Customization is not pure linear advancement because your choices expand outward as much as they deepen.

[tkinnun0]

If your character has done all the quests in and fully explored a particular zone then I'd say your character has advanced beyond that zone. One of the goals WoW presents to you is get to level 80, there's even an achievement tied to that, congratulations and presents. There are hundreds of such goals available for you in WoW and once you have taken a step towards such a goal, there's no way for you take that step back.

What the hell kind of stupid argument is it that MMORPGs are not about advancement?

[Slyfeind]

Indeed, I shall even counter with: it's impossible to make an MMO that's not about advancement. (Advancement used very loosely of course.)

[Venkman]

If you mean it's impossible to make an MMO without game based achievement, I disagree. Old SWG and UO disprove that. You had a LOT of experience to be had as a virtual citizen after banging out your template.

If you meant that players always need to have something of some sort to strive towards, then I agree. But that's an axiom for ALL games :)

[Slyfeind]

If you mean it's impossible to make an MMO without game based achievement, I disagree. Old SWG and UO disprove that. You had a LOT of experience to be had as a virtual citizen after banging out your template.

If you meant that players always need to have something of some sort to strive towards, then I agree. But that's an axiom for ALL games :)

Yeah, that second one. I was even thinking about social networking sites and achieving greater connectability with old friends.

[DLRiley]

Indeed, I shall even counter with: it's impossible to make an MMO that's not about advancement. (Advancement used very loosely of course.)

Its very possible and you don't need to go back to tombstone games like UO and SWG, which simply replaces level grind with gold farming, to find an mmo not based on advancement. Guild Wars.

[Triforcer]

Indeed, I shall even counter with: it's impossible to make an MMO that's not about advancement. (Advancement used very loosely of course.)

Its very possible and you don't need to go back to tombstone games like UO and SWG, which simply replaces level grind with gold farming

You are not bright.

[DLRiley]

Indeed, I shall even counter with: it's impossible to make an MMO that's not about advancement. (Advancement used very loosely of course.)

Its very possible and you don't need to go back to tombstone games like UO and SWG, which simply replaces level grind with gold farming

You are not bright.

Your nostalgia is showing.

[Draegan]

He was being nice.  He could of called you a brainless cunt.

[Ingmar]

Advancement is bad... why?

[Checkers]

No. Current MMOs are based on character customization/optimization, wrapped within thin narrative to drive players through content in a linear fashion (if they choose to ride the rails). Customization is not pure linear advancement because your choices expand outward as much as they deepen.

How is character optimization any different than advancement? 

[Draegan]

I'm going to toss out a guess.

Advancement refers to levels and such, that sort of progression.
Optimization refers to getting a better pieces of equipment that's +5 stats.  Which is what WOW is all about.  The bulk of anyone's character development in WOW is optimization, not advancement since most people hit max level extremely fast in a content cycle (2 years).

[Threash]

I'm going to toss out a guess.

Advancement refers to levels and such, that sort of progression.
Optimization refers to getting a better pieces of equipment that's +5 stats.  Which is what WOW is all about.  The bulk of anyone's character development in WOW is optimization, not advancement since most people hit max level extremely fast in a content cycle (2 years).

Those are both advancement...

[DLRiley]

But the fact that Draegan sees a difference is a testment to the genius of WoW. Tired of grinding levels in other mmos? No problem, just grind work for better items.

[Draegan]

You're a terrible troll.

[Draegan]

I'm going to toss out a guess.

Advancement refers to levels and such, that sort of progression.
Optimization refers to getting a better pieces of equipment that's +5 stats.  Which is what WOW is all about.  The bulk of anyone's character development in WOW is optimization, not advancement since most people hit max level extremely fast in a content cycle (2 years).

Those are both advancement...

I see advancement of gaining ranks or levels.  Increasing a number that can reach a hard cap.  To use WOW, it's 80.  Optimization is more open.  You can optimize your equipment depending on spec or playstyle.  Spec and playstyle can be changed on a whim so therefore optimization has more possibilities and either no cap or an extremely soft cap with what you can do.

[Lantyssa]

In a game where your equipment matters as much or more than your level, obtaining items is still advancement.  Once you've gotten the 'best' and are simply deciding whether your gear should be focused around this area or that other one, then you're optimizing.

[Draegan]

In a game where your equipment matters as much or more than your level, obtaining items is still advancement.  Once you've gotten the 'best' and are simply deciding whether your gear should be focused around this area or that other one, then you're optimizing.

Semantic argument at this point.  But gain levels with experience is a different form of game play than dungeon crawling to get a better belt.  Advancement vs. optimization is describing each form of play style, in my opinion anyway.

[DLRiley]

In a game where your equipment matters as much or more than your level, obtaining items is still advancement.  Once you've gotten the 'best' and are simply deciding whether your gear should be focused around this area or that other one, then you're optimizing.

Semantic argument at this point.  But gain levels with experience is a different form of game play than dungeon crawling to get a better belt.  Advancement vs. optimization is describing each form of play style, in my opinion anyway.

It's the same. Vertical increases in power is advancement whether you have to gain experience or hope for a loot drop. Fact is for "optimization" to be the real goal of mmorpgs, horizontal increases in power would be priotize. That is of course assuming the game provides more then 2 choices for any giiven class. Since your choices are shallow at best, the optimization is equally shallow and a mute point compared to the time you invest into finding an item of a greater tier then the one your holding.

[Lantyssa]

Semantic argument at this point.  But gain levels with experience is a different form of game play than dungeon crawling to get a better belt.  Advancement vs. optimization is describing each form of play style, in my opinion anyway.

Not really.

If you look at an item and think how it's a great upgrade over what you have now, it's advancement.  If you're debating between buying the Sword of Smiting or the Mace of Magicaliciousness, but neither is a pressing need, it's optimizing.  Sure there's a blurry line there when you're talking a fractional increase in power, but for the lifespan of almost any item-centric game getting new items are almost always an upgrade, and thus advancement.

For a solid example, the sword which does 2.1 dps compared to the one that does 80.5 dps and +50 Str, +40 Sta, +5 parry is a definate upgrade.  You may not notice it since you went from sword 2.2 dps -> 2.3 dps -> 2.3 dps +1 Str -> etc, but it's as much advancement as getting Fireball I, Fireball II, Fireball III, ... or going from level 1 to level 2.

[Murgos]

You are all stoned.

When you are advancing in levels, the act of doing so also provides the mechanism to upgrade your equipment.  Once you have maxxed your level you still must perform the same tasks as you would have previously but now you only get half the achievement, the equipment upgrade.

The game play is at best, nearly identical but less rewarding, and at worst much more tedious and less rewarding there is no upside.

[Draegan]

Semantic argument at this point.  But gain levels with experience is a different form of game play than dungeon crawling to get a better belt.  Advancement vs. optimization is describing each form of play style, in my opinion anyway.

Not really.

If you look at an item and think how it's a great upgrade over what you have now, it's advancement.  If you're debating between buying the Sword of Smiting or the Mace of Magicaliciousness, but neither is a pressing need, it's optimizing.  Sure there's a blurry line there when you're talking a fractional increase in power, but for the lifespan of almost any item-centric game getting new items are almost always an upgrade, and thus advancement.

For a solid example, the sword which does 2.1 dps compared to the one that does 80.5 dps and +50 Str, +40 Sta, +5 parry is a definate upgrade.  You may not notice it since you went from sword 2.2 dps -> 2.3 dps -> 2.3 dps +1 Str -> etc, but it's as much advancement as getting Fireball I, Fireball II, Fireball III, ... or going from level 1 to level 2.

I was attempting to differentiate between end game character building and everything before character building.  Again, it's a word game.  You can also look at it as a level of permanence.  Character advancement, i.e. levels or new fireballs are permanent.  Gear acquisition isn't permanent.  You can remove it from your character.