Aion - The Tower of Eternity

[Xanthippe]

While I was perusing NCSoft's site today, I came across this, which I hadn't seen before:

http://www.plaync.com/us/games/aion/

Not a lot of information here, but absolutely stunning graphics on the screenshots.  Interesting concepts (flying, pvpve).

Is this what Lum's been up to?

[Rasix]

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=8608.0

[Xanthippe]

Sigh.  Please den.  Sorry, didn't realize this was old news.

(It was news to me!)

[Lum]

Is this what Lum's been up to?

Nein. It's Korean.

And believe me, I'd love for our project to go public. I just told my producer this. It gives me an excuse to travel and give interviews! I'm all about the junkets.

[HaemishM]

Is that what they did with all the original Tabula Rasa art assets?

[Yoru]

Is this what Lum's been up to?

Nein. It's Korean.

And believe me, I'd love for our project to go public. I just told my producer this. It gives me an excuse to travel and give interviews! I'm all about the junkets.

I'm sure you can convince them! F13 is willing to fly you out to Arizona (on your own dime) - we can even offer free lodgings on Schild's floor - in exchange for an interview. That's gotta be worth something...

Right? 

[Falconeer]

Lum make an italian press conference. Me and the other two attendees will treat you to some real Bucatini all'Amatriciana.

[Merusk]

I keep waiting for Lum's project to be announced, just to chuckle at all the slings and arrows he'll suffer.

And because I hope it has dancing girls, but that's just a given with me.  :-D

[Hoax]

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=8608.0

At least that was a sort of fun trip down memory lane..

[sinij]

I don't believe anything but grind would come out of Korean title. Why? Because grind is entrenched into their culture - Korean key values are Seniority, Time Put In and Commitment.

You wonder why they like unending grinds? Simply because its how culture operates in everyday life. Creativity is discouraged, efficiency not at all required but show of busywork and super long hours is how your 'worth' is measured and you never considered 'failed' regardless of outcome if you put your hours in. For example in education up until recently they had no exams up until SAT-equivalent they take at high school graduation... and they prepare for it by spending last year mindlessly memorizing and practicing for that exam, not learning. In work place only junior people (determined by age) do work, rest are just expected to show up.

So how such culture could produce anything but mindless grind mmorpgs?

[Merusk]

Sinij, I expect that TPS report with the revised numbers by 5:00.

[sinij]

I have to go ahead and ask you...

I know Western culture also has elements of wasting time but it is nowhere near gigantic proportions that are seen in Korea. You actually succeed by accomplishing goals and increase your social standing by becoming more efficient. In Korea only time put in counts... and everyone puts A LOT of it in. 7am to midnight work/school days are norm but it is not socially acceptable to point out other's (especially senior people) mistakes and/or compare their performance to peers.

To us it might be strange, to them is how World Works. No wonder Koreans are so much into computer gaming, its about the only venue where competition is deemed socially acceptable and about only place where age seniority does not matter.

[Jayce]

I have to go ahead and ask you...

I know Western culture also has elements of wasting time but it is nowhere near gigantic proportions that are seen in Korea. You actually succeed by accomplishing goals and increase your social standing by becoming more efficient. In Korea only time put in counts... and everyone puts A LOT of it in. 7am to 12pm work/school days are norm.

So I'm curious.  Are you a professional scholar of Korean culture or are you simply talking out of your ?

[sinij]

I actually did extensive research into mmorpg market differences, I was always puzzled by why Koreans like such drastically different things. That lead to some reading into Korean culture and discussions with my Korean friends and friends that lived in Korea for number of years while teaching. Now what I'm describing is Korean middle class (90% of population), elite are not that different (considering that they ALL educated in Europe or N.America) from Western upper-middle class.

[Lum]

So, my take on Korean MMOs are a little different. This also comes from a lot of research, lots of talking to Koreans, visiting Korea, and of course, working for a Korean gaming company.

The first thing to remember about Korean gaming is that until recently, Japanese imports were impossible to find. Thus, no Nintendo, no Sony Playstation. So the gaming culture grew up around PCs.

Not only did it grow up around PCs, it grew up around PC rooms. PC rooms were social spaces. It's where high school kids went to blow off steam. And there are a LOT of them - literally on every street corner - and cheap.

So some things were important, other things less so. For example customization isn't an issue, because the people you're playing with are RIGHT THERE for the most part. Same for chat functions - most of the time your teammates are in the same room. However it's important for Korean games to be played one-handed, because the other hand is busy smoking. PvP is big because online gaming is a competitive sport - your PC room against some other guys.

That being said, things are changing. PC rooms aren't as popular any more, because Korea is becoming wealthier as a society and more like the West in terms of spacious living quarters complete with broadband (thus no need to escape to the corner PC room). There is no "Korean disposition to the grind" so much as there simply hasn't been much in the way of alternatives and a high tolerance to this point due to PvP competitiveness. World of Warcraft reviews in Korea play up the same things they do here - polish and low grind as opposed to other games. Guild Wars is pretty big in Korea and has less grind than WoW.

Also, at least where I work, Korean games and Western games are seen as very different markets. There's some overlap, but not a great deal. Western players look for different features than Koreans. For example, Western males like to play big rugged manly male characters. Koreans see those as the villains. The heros are skinny, usually wear glasses, and overcome the big brawny guys using brains and bravery. So popular avatars in Korean games are seen as effeminate and "sissy" by Westerners. Thus Koreans don't like avatar choices in Western games and vice versa. There's *lots* of cultural differences like this. However it's not a hard and fast rule. WoW and Guild Wars are both cross-cultural successes, and the popularity of anime gives a market in America for the Asian aesthetic.

[tmp]

Western players look for different features than Koreans. For example, Western males like to play big rugged manly male characters. Koreans see those as the villains. The heros are skinny, usually wear glasses, and overcome the big brawny guys using brains and bravery.

Interesting. So --greatly oversimplifying-- Korean players utilize the games to live out the fantasy of beating that school bully they can't stand up to outside of virtual world, while the western players live out the fantasy of becoming that bully themselves? Quite different solutions to the same issue, indeed.

Though that said I don't really recall any popular MMO (Korean or otherwise) that would actually focus on "brains and bravery" of either character or the player as way to deal with presented challenges, as opposed to "spam the sword slash/fireball button and chug down the potions to stay alive until the other guy drops"...

[schild]

Like any other country, you can figure them out by the TV they produce. Go head over to d-addicts.com and download some modern K-Dramas. You'll get more insight than you ever wanted.

Goddamn does Korean TV just suck.

[stray]

I like to play as girly men -- who are also bullies.  (think Sephiroth).

Or at the very least, something with a little style to it (think Darkspears). Bald and brawny space marines/he-men suck.

[Lum]

Goddamn does Korean TV just suck.

Most of Asia disagrees with you for some reason.

[Signe]

I think of nearly all of you as girly men. 

Anyway, I'll probably give Aion a go as soon as possible.  I have a soft spot in my head heart for grindy Korean games.

[Engels]

For example, Western males like to play big rugged manly male characters. Koreans see those as the villains. The heros are skinny, usually wear glasses, and overcome the big brawny guys using brains and bravery. So popular avatars in Korean games are seen as effeminate and "sissy" by Westerners. Thus Koreans don't like avatar choices in Western games and vice versa.

Wow, maybe I've got some Korean in me. You just expressed the full reason why I always play either a Dark Elf or a Gnome or some other physically disadvantaged character in an MMO; because I will have to rely on my wits rather than physical superiority. The cool thing about MMOs is that the physically weak races always are a force to contend with, somehow. That's far more of a fantasy fulfillment than just pretending to be a huge dumb highschool jock/barbarian.

[sinij]

Lum I agree with most of what you said, but I disagree with notions that Koreans don't like their grind super long. There are tons of mmorpgs in Korea and every single one has super-long grind. I remember Wolfpack run into issues with Koreans demanding LONGER leveling times in SB asaia, and that was early on when grind wasn't super-short the way it is right now.

I still think key issue is that Korean culture values 'time put in' and Western culture values 'success'.

[schild]

Goddamn does Korean TV just suck.

Most of Asia disagrees with you for some reason.

Most of asia is batfuck crazy. Cdrama is just as bad. Tdrama is a wreck. I suppose Kdrama is the lesser of 3 evils. Jdrama is tolerable. Well, about 40% of it is.

[Signe]

What is T drama?

[schild]

Taiwanese Dramas.

[Lum]

You are critisizing the quality of Asian dramas.

Your avatar is a big anime red thing getting his underarms shaved.

[Furiously]

Hello Pot, Hello Kettle....

Dancing Anime girl?

[Rasix]

Damn Japanophiles.

Wait..

[Yoru]

Hello Pot, Hello Kettle....

Dancing Anime girl?

If I'm not mistaken, that's an in-game shot from the Korean MMO "Yogurting".

[Lum]

Hello Pot, Hello Kettle....

Dancing Anime girl?

I was not the one criticizing Asian drama!

[Furiously]

Your avatar is a big anime red thing getting his underarms shaved.

I never said you were...Mr. Pot

[schild]

My avatar is from an arcade game made in the early 90s.

It has nothing to do with all the shitty TV that's put on the air in Asia.

[Venkman]

I've done no research at all into this save dabbling with a bunch of Korean-based MMOs. While I can appreciate people associate "Korea" with "Grind", the latter I've found to be interpreted in games fairly differently, with different end goals.

The West

• You grind by literally doing the exact same thing over and over, because at any given time and in any given situation, your class/archetype has exactly one "best" way to be played. And when you've hit the level cap, you are faced with what amounts to meta-grinding in the form of Raiding.
• This was the case until we started to accept PvP as an option again after having been burned years ago by someone stealing our Ore in Britannia. And our derision for PvP was at exactly the same time PvP become the default for every single other genre in computer gaming except RPGs.
  
• People have pride in their accomplishments when it is almost universally accepted that the only real requirement is time.
  
  

Korea

• The relatively few Korean-based games I've played showed a remarkable comparative breadth, in both theme and actions. Remember, this isn't just about Lineage 1/2. This includes Audition, Krazykart, Pangyea (sp?), Maplestory, and, yes, Lineage 1/2. And these were all extremely popular games (I don't have current numbers).
  
• Meanwhile, to get that breadth in the U.S. at least, you'd need to go from the omgmillions of WoW to the thousand or so that play ATiTD. And you still don't have even a modestly popular DDR-like dance game nor driving game.
• And they've pretty much always had PvP, to bring more depth to the accomplishments

This snapshot is important to me because it highlights the underlying truth that measuring a culture by a single genre within a single type of entertainment media is stupid. People see what they want to see from a screenshot because they either don't have the time or don't give enough of a shit to go check it out. So they see anime, a sword, and a hitpoint bar and assume "another Korean grind". And they'll conveniently forget the fucking raft of "successful" Western MMOs which are all effectively the same.

[schild]

Trackmania doesn't count? I mean, ok, not a big lobby, but I think it counts. Also, "Acclaim" released that DDR shit in america.

[Hoax]

This bullshit about Korean players not being able to live w/out the grind is fucking talking out your ass at its best.  Nice work there guys.

Korean devs [-wtf, have been lol, fuck this whole post was a giant mess] also have brought about a new genre of MMOG's.   By combining a b.net style lobby+games system and actual skill-based gameplay and a focus on pvp content they have made a bunch of sadly, relatively obscure and unsuccessful titles that were meant to operate on the no sub + cash shop revenue theory.  While it is true that many of these games have suffered from the hallmark K-game failings.  They have also actually brought new gameplay wrinkles to the "medium".  Which is more then I can say for Western devs at this point.

The point I'm making is, while they are responsible for some of the grindiest shittiest gameplay out there in the form of half baked L2 and RO clones.  They are also the only culture currently doing anything other then copying EQ and plastering another layer of shiney on that old petrified turd of core-gameplay.

*this post has been all sorts of edited, it still sucks though*



[saved for, well just saved because really]
But w/e lets just stick with:

RANG RANG OMG STOOP1D KGAMEZ R 4 TARDS HAHA GRINDY

and call it a day.

God I'm in a bad mood tonight.  So yes, I'm overstating things, but seriously if some fucking people who could actually speak english and run a game on servers that dont choke on fucking thai-mandick so hard that the game is unplayable 75% of the time.  I MIGHT have something to play.  Instead the hockey playoffs and alcohol are my only salvation from mind numbing boredom.