Blargh...pc tech requires a degree now!

[Stephen Zepp]

Ok, just spent the last 5 hours viewing all of the "building a new PC!" threads, as well as pouring over dell, alienware, mwave, and newegg sites, and I simply don't have the time for any of this.

Anyone out there willing to spend some time suggesting custom configurations given a set of requirements I have, and a medium price range? I'd be more than willing to pay for the time, but from the way the threads all branch out, I wasn't sure if simply posting up the reqs here makes sense, so was thinking doing it via email/pm's.

One of the biggest requirements I do have is that I don't have the time or expertise to build it myself, so either assembly/testing or custom configuration of an existing system is a requirement, but the dell/alienware "deals" especially are charging huge premiums for things like 4gig memory, etc, etc, and I'm simply not willing to throw them my money--I'd be more than willing throwing some money to someone here however!

Here are my rough use requirements:

Gaming system, secondary dev system
--focus on video speed and quality with high end settings (normal games), dual monitor required. Primarily last generation games, but need strong driver support (OpenGL especially)
--secondary focus on hard drive speed (development work)
--no Vista
--upgrade persistently capable over the next 3 years memory, mbu, etc.
--overclocking isn't my forte, but if it's "throw a few switches, or use a software wizard" easy, then a low priority factor
--high quality/speed memory, 4 Gig expected unless you have a reason to talk me out of it
--dual 20" minimum monitors
--quiet (very) operation. I can currently hear my area 51's fans from 2 rooms away, and literally cannot talk on the phone in the same room.

Things I don't know:

--SLI, crossfire--even required? Two video cards needed for dual monitor?
--memory configurations for video? seen 256, 320, 512, 768. Knowing what I do about video memory use, the lower two are probably out, but...
--I don't want to get caught in the "latest new thing" when it comes to components such as memory, mbu slot type, etc. I've seen so many buzzwords come and go (quicky) that I don't even think the system I bought 3 years ago (Alienware Area 51) even can be upgraded any longer.
--I don't know what else I don't know!

[Engels]

Budget?

[Stephen Zepp]

$1,500-$2,500, obviously lower the better ;)

[Morfiend]

I built my own as you probably know from the other threads. Honestly, I would reccomend going to www.hardforum.com and checking out what those guys are saying. People are constantly posting new builds, and asking and answering all the questions in your post.

I could tell you my opinion, but that would be my opinion, and honestly, with just a little bit of research, you could very easily decide for your self exactualy what machine you want.


Now, in my opinion.

-c2d proccessor
-2gb of medium priced ram. (dont skimp, but dont blow $500 ether)
-Asus, gigabyte, or intel motherboard. IMO stay away from the 680i boards, in less you must have SLi.
-Stay away from SLi/Crossfire in less you need OMG EVERY SETTING MAXED!~!!11!!1! on your FPS games. Also, imo SLi is not a price:performance upgrade viability.
-Get a decent PSU. The Corsair modular is awesome. I cant stress that enough.
-Graphics card can vary. I usually choose Nvidia, I like them. I got the 8800gtx and I love it. You dont have to spend that much. Unlike proccessors, with gcards, as price goes up so does performance.
-get a nice hd, but dont blow your price on a Raptor if you dont want to. Get SATA2.0.

Hope that helps.

[Engels]

I was actually going to suggest just copying Morphiend's rig. Maybe raid 0 or 5 a bunch of hard drives to be that much more oober.

[Nija]

Yanked from the SHSC SA forum -

http://tools.corsairmemory.com/systembuild/report.aspx?report_id=78237&sid=1

[Trippy]

Do you already have a couple of monitors to use or do you need to get those as well? If so are you okay with LCDs, along with all their problems, or are you a CRT kind of guy?

[Trippy]

--high quality/speed memory, 4 Gig expected unless you have a reason to talk me out of it

Getting 32-bit Windows XP to use all 4 GB of RAM is an impossible task, especially since you need a high-end video card, because devices other than just your physical RAM is mapped into the 32-bit address space. For those of you old-timers who remember the days of HIMEM.SYS and QEMM and stuff it's the same thing as what was going on between 640K and 1 MB in the address space with system ROMs and other stuff mapped into that area so you couldn't use that entire 384K to squeeze your device drivers and TSRs into there.

3 GB is about the best you can hope for and even that may be dicey. Just you confuse you some more you can read these things:

http://members.cox.net/slatteryt/RAM.html
http://h20331.www2.hp.com/Hpsub/downloads/RAM_Allocation_w-WinXP_HP_MWP_x64.pdf
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/memory/base/memory_limits_for_windows_releases.asp
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/291988/en-us
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/888137/en-us

If you really need a full 4 GB of RAM accessible by the OS and applications you'll need to use 64-bit Windows XP with all of its attendant device driver and compatibility issues.

[Samwise]

Ok, just spent the last 5 hours viewing all of the "building a new PC!" threads, as well as pouring over dell, alienware, mwave, and newegg sites, and I simply don't have the time for any of this.

What did you pour over them?

[Trippy]

-Get a decent PSU. The Corsair modular is awesome. I cant stress that enough.

The Corsair PSes are made by Seasonic (basically a rebranded M12 minus the 60mm fan), a company I recommend on a regular basis, so yes they are good.

[NiX]

What did you pour over them?

A fine Grand Marnier. Nothing but the best for someone who's about to give you the worst reach around of your life.

[squirrel]

Gaming system, secondary dev system
--focus on video speed and quality with high end settings (normal games), dual monitor required. Primarily last generation games, but need strong driver support (OpenGL especially)
--secondary focus on hard drive speed (development work)
--no Vista
--upgrade persistently capable over the next 3 years memory, mbu, etc.
--overclocking isn't my forte, but if it's "throw a few switches, or use a software wizard" easy, then a low priority factor
--high quality/speed memory, 4 Gig expected unless you have a reason to talk me out of it
--dual 20" minimum monitors
--quiet (very) operation. I can currently hear my area 51's fans from 2 rooms away, and literally cannot talk on the phone in the same room.

Um, I'm so going to get flamed to hell for this. Keep in mind I do have a Alienware gaming PC that is very beefy, and I am not discounting any of the good advice above. Just offering a second opinion.

Have you considered a laptop? Specifically a MacBook Pro? They are quiet, capable of driving 1x17"&1x30"+ monitors, fast (C2D), 4GB RAM capable, highly capable Win XP gaming platforms for today and yesterdays games, fantastic dev machines (I boot OS X, Linux, Win XP - and the first 2 will actually use most of your 4 gigs ram).

Of course upgrades are not feasible beyond drives/memory and it would run over your stated price point, but it's worth a consideration based on your needs.

No flames, it's just a consideration if you want to pay a bit more it's a nice multi-OS notebook that satisfies alot of those criteria. Back of with your damn pitchforks!

[Trippy]

Have you considered a laptop? Specifically a MacBook Pro? They are quiet, capable of driving 1x17"&1x30"+ monitors, fast (C2D), 4GB RAM capable, highly capable Win XP gaming platforms for today and yesterdays games, fantastic dev machines (I boot OS X, Linux, Win XP - and the first 2 will actually use most of your 4 gigs ram).

The MacBook Pro doesn't support dual stand-alone monitors (though it can support a single dual-link monitor) so he would have to use the built-in display as one of his two monitors which may or may not be convenient. I.e. it's not the same as having two identical thin bezel LCDs side-by-side. The Mobility Radeon X1600 is a medicore gaming GPU by current "enthusiast" standards with no upgrade path. The highest capacity 7200 RPM drive you can fit inside is 100 GB which may be too small and a 10K RPM internal drive is not an option. Windows XP driver support is heavily dependent on Apple. You pay a huge premium for the laptop form factor which he didn't say he needed so it's going to cost him $2500 for the lowest end 15" model with 2 GB of RAM if he installs a 7200 RPM drive in there himself. Also the MagSafe connector tends to melt and the battery may catch on fire. But otherwise, yeah it might work.

[squirrel]

Hmmm...agreed on most of your points. Couple things I have to comment on though:

* Drives. Completely agree on the internal capabilities - however you can use extremely fast firewire externals in almost any config you wish. No dispute it's less expandable but you're not entirely limited by the drive bay and PS limitations. I do some HD (720p) video on a 2.33 C2D 15" attached to a very fast firewire array - but yes it's not in the box.

* Win support. This is a non-issue. It works now. Bootcamp isn't going anywhere. The drivers are pretty much irrelevant, I use manufacturer drivers not Apples. The only thing Apple provides really is an easy partition and EFI/BIOS manager. This isn't going to change or be restricted in anyway, pandora has left the box.

* Monitors - again agreed it's a compromise for the portability. Of course a Mac Pro 8 core has no such issue, but a 17" MacBook Pro will do the 17" and a 30+" external. May or may not be an issue for each individual.

* the x1600 in the laptops is a mid-road GPU for sure. But look at his requirements. I run BF2, WoW, S.T.A.L.K.E.R and a bunch of older games at very high res and colour depth with hi-res textures and AA2 on a X1600. Yes there's better GPU's - not an argument I would take on.

That said, Im not trying to convince anyone a MBP is a great primary gaming machine. I actually use mine for that despite having a really decent Alienware machine. But its doing HDTV duty...

[Trippy]

* Drives. Completely agree on the internal capabilities - however you can use extremely fast firewire externals in almost any config you wish. No dispute it's less expandable but you're not entirely limited by the drive bay and PS limitations. I do some HD (720p) video on a 2.33 C2D 15" attached to a very fast firewire array - but yes it's not in the box.

Firewire 800 is good stuff but it's still not as fast as an internal SATA drive.

[Riggswolfe]

I can gurantee you hours of video game heaven for roughly $2000. Buy an XBOX 360, PS3, and Wii. Of course that doesn't help with your productivity needs. :(

First, see if you have any friends that will build it for you. If you do and can pay them a small or no fee (trade a favor for a favor if possible) you can get a pretty good computer for $1500. The only part that is really going to kill you is the video card since it alone is going to cost as much as any of the three systems listed above. I'm honestly not sure if it would be better to get a good card with dual monitor ports or some sort of duo rig.

That said I usually go one generation back on video cards. It won't have all the bells and whistles but it usually costs $200 instead of $500.

My big advice, get the best processor and as much ram as you can afford. Get a $200 video card or two $200 if you have to go duo. But the processor and ram are the most important parts. You can upgrade the video later and if the rest of the computer is good it'll last you for a long time. Under no circumstances should you skimp on processor and ram to get a better video card.

ETA: I would not recommend a Radeon card btw. They have horrible drivers and aren't as reliable as Nvidia IMO.

[Stephen Zepp]

I already have a "last generation high end" laptop (Dell Inspiron) from work, and while Mac is a consideration for the future, not interested currently (not anything against Mac's, I'm just not a Mac guy).

Don't need to buy any consoles--I have both retail and dev kits for some/many/most/all (::) at the office.

Yes, will need to go dual lcd's, sick and tired of crt's clogging up my desk space.

Ironic that I had forgotten the address space issue with 32 bit vs 4 gig, since I was "the" expert back during the exact situation folks mentioned, trying to double and triple map 8 bits of addressing space was ...interesting... still sounds as if 3 gig is worth a couple of hundred however, given the nature of compiling and working with both c++ and XNA on a daily basis.

I had looked at Morf's build, as well as Samwise's, and of course Sky's (and no insult intended man, but your horror story is exactly why I can't afford to take the time to build it myself), and then actually started trying to price both of them on newegg, and I guess I just don't "get" the web purchasing interfaces---kept getting myself totally lost in compatibilty concerns, as well as "yah, but what did I forget?" shit. Embarassing, I totally admit, since I used to build new comps myself.

[Sky]

No insult taken. It's the first real problem I've had in 14 years of building my own gaming rigs, and to be honest, it's been blown way out of proportion by shoddy CS. Just some bad RAM on the gpu but holy sheet it's dragging on. It's made me rethink the whole thing, but then I remember I saved about $2500 ;)

[Engels]

I guess I just don't "get" the web purchasing interfaces---kept getting myself totally lost in compatibilty concerns, as well as "yah, but what did I forget?" shit. Embarassing, I totally admit, since I used to build new comps myself.

I agree that it can be quite confusing unless you know the tie in factors ahead of time, but its still simpler than I think you think it is. A quick run down, without getting too fiddly, from the motherboard on up:

Motherboard features for your particular build parameters that determine other factors:

Socket type determines CPU. LGA775 for Core2Duo, Socket AM2 for Athlon 64 X2 / Athlon 64 FX / Athlon 64 (there's also socket 939 for older Athlons, but dont' worry about it, it doesn't really apply with your specs)

Ram standard. DDR2 in your case. Just about any sort will do in your case. If you want to get fiddly, the Front Side Bus should match the hertz on your ram, but really, all you need to do is go to crucial.com and do a motherboard match with their cool utility. You don't have to buy their ram, just use their tool to determine compatibilities.

PCI Express for video.

Lastly, the North Bridge Chipset. Right now, the main focus is on chipsets that work with Core2Duos, and there's basically two types out there; Nvidia and Intel. Intel doesn't provide SLI support, but it has better documentation and has fewer reported stability issues. The intel series is numbered 965, 975, etc. The Nvidia one is the 600 series, the top one being 680i. There's an older 500 series but you can ignore it. The 680i has been reported to have 'issues'.

Trippy will no doubt wish to add or ammend stuff I said here, but that's about the size of it. Everything else is simply performance rather than compatibility issues.

[Samwise]

Part of the reason that I'm just building Morphiend's PC is to avoid having to figure out the compatibility issues.  I agree, it's kinda a PITA.

[Morfiend]

I did a LOT of research on mine. And it was a very easy build. Took me in total about an hour. The hardest part being attaching the CPU cooler to the motherboard. I knew that ASUS cooler was going to be a pain, it said so in all the reviews, but DAMN it looks and works good.

Stephen. I would look at some of the builds you like, then go to newegg and find comperable pieces, then do "Add to wishlist". Once you have what you feel is a good "base" post it here, and we will tell you what we think you forgot.

[Sky]

Morph's system and mine were easy builds (as I said, mine is actually a small defect in reality). Using either as a guide is a good idea :) Seems buying two monitors would be the budget-buster in that build no matter what you did.

As far as remembering all the parts, I crack my old pc and make a list of everything in it and start from that.

[Morfiend]

Nah he could get 2 decent LCDs for around $700. That still gives him the budget for a system like ours, and still hit around $2500.

[Sky]

Yeah, I forget how affordable LCD is getting. The 20" widescreen Dell I use here at work ran us $350 iirc.

[Arrrgh]

Did you try Dell Outlet? Decent deals there now and then, and they're still running XP.

http://www.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/xpsdt?c=us&cs=22&l=en&s=dfh

[Krakrok]

Dell Home has their E207WFP 20in LCD 1680x1050, VGA, DVI with HDCP (For Blu-ray/HD-DVD support), 800:1, 5ms, No video/s-video inputs, 3yr warranty $229 shipped free. Ends Wed

Dell E228WFP 22in LCD flat panel 1680x1050, 5ms, 800:1, DVI, HDCP support, 3yr warranty on sale for $276 shipped free.