Mac - 'It just works.' Bullshit.

[naum]

You're asserting that running a Disk Utility 'repair permissions' is a routine operation performed before and after running Software Update. It isn't. I have a bunch of Macs, and have never once needed to run it. Not once. Since the days of OS X closed beta. I don't know quite what 'expert user' actions you did in the first place to bugger up your file system permissions that you'd want to use the tool, but it certainly shouldn't be used as a routine operation, and it doesn't actually repair anything - it resets permissions to a predetermined state that may not even be appropriate for software you have subsequently installed. It certainly isn't designed to be routine maintenance, and using it in that way is more like the actions of an "incompetent user" than anything grandma might have done.

I've never had to do this either on any of my dozens of Macs I have worked with and/or setup for friends/family the past 4+ years. I've read some accounts where folks were advised to do this when they experienced problems — I had attributed it to maybe custom APE deals that went astray… …again, once in a while, a major OS/kernel patch might end up prompting me with a keychain confirm dialog… …all in all, I find the Mac OS X updater to be a LOT less painful than MS updates (though my experience is anecdotal I realize + Win improving in that regard).

[Sky]

Count me as another mac admin that's never had to use Disk Utility repair permissions, and I do all kinds of funk disk imaging (which I've finally decided I refuse to do with windows given all the hassles compared to CCC).

[raydeen]

I have to do the repair permissions thing now and again. Had a weird one a while back working on the school yearbook. Loaded up a page and InDesign said it couldn't find the Arial font. I knew I had it and confirmed it by going into the fonts folder. On a hunch, I ran Disk Utility and sho' 'nuff, there was something fubar'd with Arial's permissions. I think I had a system crash the day before that might have done it. No biggie.

The big problem we're running into right now is locked .fstemp files on the users network folders. We have to use a program called File Buddy to unlock and delete them, otherwise the users get continuous sync errors.

Occasionally the OS farts and creates an extra user account with the same name as the real one and the kids log in and find all their documents missing (at least that's what it looks like to them). I have to go into Netinfo Manager and find the bogus user account and delete it.

MS Word will crash when the students try to print from a Network account. Still can't find any info on that on the net and it's probably an MS thing anyways.

Sometimes the laptops lose the LDAP binding and the kids can't connect to the server outside of the school.

Lots of failed 'logic boards' and quite a few bad batteries from the new MacBooks.

 Minor annoyances all but it does grind on me now and again. Macs are far from being the wonderful perfect everything just works machines that Apple touts them to be. Quite honestly by comparison, the Windows boxes are heaven to work with. Maybe it's just because I've had many more years experience with them but as far as software/hardware reliability goes, the Windows boxes are beating the Mac boxes hands down at our school (with one small manufacture being the exception but they have very shitty hardware). We have Dells and Gateways that are going on 7+ years of use with very little service needed but we have Macs that come in and die within weeks or months.

[naum]

I
Lots of failed 'logic boards' and quite a few bad batteries from the new MacBooks.

Minor annoyances all but it does grind on me now and again. Macs are far from being the wonderful perfect everything just works machines that Apple touts them to be. Quite honestly by comparison, the Windows boxes are heaven to work with. Maybe it's just because I've had many more years experience with them but as far as software/hardware reliability goes, the Windows boxes are beating the Mac boxes hands down at our school (with one small manufacture being the exception but they have very shitty hardware). We have Dells and Gateways that are going on 7+ years of use with very little service needed but we have Macs that come in and die within weeks or months.

Haven't experienced anything troublesome other than a crashed HD on a 3+ year old PB…

…then again, I avoid 1st generation Apple products like the velvet fog…

[Murgos]

…then again, I avoid 1st generation Apple products like the velvet fog…

What's wrong with Mel Torme?  Sure, he had some dumb appearances on Night Court but you can't hold that against the man, he was getting old and the public defender girl had big boobas.

[Big Gulp]

he was getting old and the public defender girl had big boobas.

My young, teenaged self used to lust after Markie Post like you wouldn't believe.  Sweet Jesus, but that woman was smoking hot back in the day.

[squirrel]

C'mon it wasn't even founded in reality. I'm not going to bother with a point by point rebuttal, but there was so much barking mad bullshit in there, it was an obvious draw post.

Same reaction here. Have fun with that. Enjoy your Vista upgrade path btw.

EDIT: Trippy's nfs complaints are ones I share - and I love OS X. It's not perfect. It's fine to criticize something for a genuine fault. It's stupid to criticize something for your shortcomings.

[Trippy]

I have a bunch of custom folder settings, again not sure what the problem is there.

You just aren't noticing it, I'm on my Mac right now and I just went to the Finder to open up my "Install" folder where I dump all my .dmg files and it's back to its fucking useless default icon view. It remembers the settings for a while but then simply forgets them sort of like the way Windows used to have limit on the number of folder layout settings it would remember and after a while the oldest settings would be overwritten by newer ones except that I hardly use the GUI on my Mac right now (it's running as a Unix server) so the Finder is even more brain damaged than Windows ever was.

[stray]

Hmm...

I *think* (don't count on this) that it'll remember icon and window size settings depending on whether you maximize the window or something (the "+" sign, green button). It's weird.

Get it back to the default window size (the non maximized size), then set up icons and window size that way.....If it doesn't remember your settings after that, sorry.

Just my (probably worthless) two cents.

[Samwise]

It's stupid to criticize something for your shortcomings.

That sort of response has its place, generally when discussing things like Unixisms that are meant to be functional but not friendly.  It is acceptable in those cases to criticize the user for not being qualified to use the tool.

It is not valid when discussing an interface that is touted as being intuitive and easy for new users.  At all.  The job of a user-friendly interface is to help the user succeed in spite of their own shortcomings.  If the user fails, the interface fails.

[Kitsune]

You're asserting that running a Disk Utility 'repair permissions' is a routine operation performed before and after running Software Update. It isn't. I have a bunch of Macs, and have never once needed to run it. Not once. Since the days of OS X closed beta. I don't know quite what 'expert user' actions you did in the first place to bugger up your file system permissions that you'd want to use the tool, but it certainly shouldn't be used as a routine operation, and it doesn't actually repair anything - it resets permissions to a predetermined state that may not even be appropriate for software you have subsequently installed. It certainly isn't designed to be routine maintenance, and using it in that way is more like the actions of an "incompetent user" than anything grandma might have done.

You seem to be laboring under the Atlas-sized misconception that I am having some kind of difficulty with my iBook, when this is not the case.  I've never encountered a problem with my mac that I couldn't solve in a matter of minutes.  But I am not your run of the mill user; I can assemble a computer, install Server 2003 on it, have IIS and Exchange running, a domain name and SSL certificate set up and have web and e-mail traffic flowing on it in an afternoon.  Using my ability to use a macintosh as a validation of its user-friendly nature is akin to claiming that Steve Irwin's ability to grab a snake and not die means that playing with snakes is fun and safe for children.

In a world with reading comprehension, you would have noticed that I was referring to elderly computer users being in way over their heads after several facets of the advertised-as-idiot-proof iMac they purchased failed to perform in an idiot-proof manner.  You would also have noticed that I linked to the tech support forum of a Mac user site, at the big sticky post at the top of the page where they say:

If your computer begins to act strangely, the first thing you should do is repair your permissions. You should also repair your permissions on a regular basis, particularly after software updates or installs, even if nothing seems wrong.

If you have a problem with that, take it up with them.  As far as my computer goes, the permissions have never been 'buggered up', neither as the result of a permission repair nor the lack of a permission repair.  The filesystem has been completely problem-free.  Whether this is a result of the occasional permission repair or in spite of it, I can't say, not being prescient.


Everyone on this site is (or is good at faking being) a competent computer user.  Most of you can't comprehend exactly how lost an inexperienced user is when faced by a computer, unless you've worked tech support and been exposed to the horror.  Let's look at a common enough sort of problem, a frozen program.  From the tech support FAQ:

There are effectively four methods in Mac OS X to "Force Quit" an application that has stopped responding. These include:

   1. cmd-opt-esc: Pressing the keystroke combination of command (Apple), option, and escape should cause the "Force Quit Applications" window to appear. This window can also be accessed from the Apple menu in any application that is still responsive.
   2. Dock icon's Force Quit: Holding the control key and clicking or right-clicking an application's Dock icon will present a menu of functions including the standard "Quit" item. Hold also the option key to change the "Quit" item to "Force Quit".
   3. Activity Monitor's "Quit Process": Launch the "Activity Monitor" application from the /Applications/Utilities folder and you will see a list of all running applications and processes on your computer. Choose a process name from the list and choose "Quit Process" from the View menu. Then click "Force Quit" in the sheet that appears.
   4. The "kill" command: Launch the "Terminal" application from the /Applications/Utilities folder. Alternatively, externally connect to the machine using an SSH or terminal account. At the command-line interface, enter the command "ps uxc". A multi-column output of text will appear that describes the currently active process owned by your username. The second column, named PID, should contain a unique number for each process. Find the process you want to quit and run the command "kill -9 NUMBER" where NUMBER is the number you found. For example, "kill -9 11223" would terminate the process with PID 11223.

Now, in this scenario, imagine that you're fucking old.  You were trying to send an e-mail to your grandkids, probably one containing some frantic urban legend that your grandkids were smart enough to check on snopes and realize how gullible you are.  The mail client freezes.  The computer didn't come with an instruction book to speak of.  Which of the above four options are you likely to be able to come up with?  And remember, you still haven't gotten the VCR clock to stop blinking 12:00, and you don't even own a DVD player.

None of them.  The poor old guy isn't going to be able to do any of those things.  He doesn't have the knowledge, he doesn't know how to find that knowledge, the magic box is simply broken.

Sky is right, of course.  Computers aren't toasters.  Computers are monstrously complicated machines, and they're in the hands of people for whom toasters are probably too complicated to be safely handled.  So why'm I busting Apple's balls in particular?

Because Apple is the jackass putting out all the commercials talking about how super-easy their computers are.

Are Macs easier and safer than Windows machines?  Yeah, no real question of that.  But they aren't easier and safer enough for those advertisements to be ethical.

If someone can handle a Mac competently and well, then they can handle Windows too.  If someone can't handle Windows, they probably can't handle a Mac, either.  Anyone who gets their Windows computer utterly raped by spyware and trojans, sees that commercial, and buys a Mac under the belief that their new expensive magic box will usher them gently into a new age of computer savvy and in a week they'll be sipping lattes in a cyber-cafe and living the digital lifestyle, well.  They've just thrown a few grand down a hole and won't be getting it back soon.

[Righ]

You're not much of a worldly wise computer expert if you run an option to fix filesystem permissions because you found a reference to it on some idiot forum's FAQ. You don't know what it's doing, you just run it as if it were some magical ceremony that you need to perform. Maybe it wards off evil filesystem spirits. Who cares? The FAQ told you to do it.

That's fine though. Its even fine to want to spread your mad fucking Mac religion to other people. But you've got some nerve to then hold that up as an example of why Macs are difficult to use. In your church of bizarre behaviour they are.

As for adverts being 'unethical'... who the fuck knows. I guess your ethical standards are kind of high. Probably goes with the waving mistletoe and dancing in circles around the Mac as it fixes filesystem permissions. I do know that all advertising is poppycock designed to get you to buy stuff. Apple is no different in that regard.

[stray]

False advertising it may be, but this one always gives me a chuckle. 

http://movies.apple.com/movies/us/apple/getamac/betterresults_480x376.mov

[Tebonas]

Nothing is idiot-proof. Idiots are inventive.

But while some people will screw everything up, Windows gets screwed up more easily. You have to work to screw up a Mac.

Of course it can be done. Particularly by elder relatives. Relatives don't ever listen to what you tell them because hey, they are one or two generations older than you, they knew you when you crapped your diapers, so what can you really know about anything.

[Sky]

You're not much of a worldly wise computer expert if you run an option to fix filesystem permissions because you found a reference to it on some idiot forum's FAQ. You don't know what it's doing, you just run it as if it were some magical ceremony that you need to perform. Maybe it wards off evil filesystem spirits. Who cares? The FAQ told you to do it.

Sounds like my supervisor. It used to piss me off when suddenly a computer he was troubleshooting flaked out, but now I'm ok with it. I get paid the same whether it's a real or fabricated problem, and sometimes it's interesting diagnosing what the hell he did. This is the guy who will buy a $15 shareware program to replicate a few terminal commands...makes it interesting.

Re: Advertising. Ell Oh ell. It's advertising, for crissakes. Macs are full of wholesome goodness, no trans fats! Advertising.

Re: folder settings. Most of the custom folders I make are for public computers which are locked down with security software to wipe out any changes. So the settings are constantly being restored, that might be why the custom folders are always correct. Dunno, I honestly don't dick around with computers too much. Get the job done, leave as much default as possible is my motto. Some day I'd like to just snooze at my desk knowing I've done a good job, wait around to maybe reboot a machine remotely. Maybe in another 30 years...when computers are toasters :)

I'm configuring a new windows pc setup right now and it's a total pain in the ass. About half from having new security software to learn (they can't make it simple like the macs :( ) but a lot of it is the way windows tends to overcomplicate things. I don't care about my geek ego, I'm not too proud to say I like things simple and easy. It allows me time to get more stuff done. I don't even fuck with my windows machines anymore configuration-wise, just update the software and let 'em be. I reconfigure the macs all the time, because it's quick and easy (relatively speaking). My favorite example is Ghost vs CCC, in my opinion there is no comparison. Ghost is (for me) a complicated mess I've never gotten to work properly (properly = like CCC). CCC, otoh, is pure magic voodoo. Set up one machine, and image the rest from it's disk image file. Now I don't strictly count that against windows, because I could get ghost working if I took the time to really learn it, but when I can easily use CCC instead, why the hell wouldn't I?

That said, each has their place, each has their strengths and weaknesses. Look at your damned Vista thread. Your only 'legit' gripe is based on advertising, which is very silly indeed.

[Kitsune]

You're not much of a worldly wise computer expert if you run an option to fix filesystem permissions because you found a reference to it on some idiot forum's FAQ. You don't know what it's doing, you just run it as if it were some magical ceremony that you need to perform. Maybe it wards off evil filesystem spirits. Who cares? The FAQ told you to do it.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?path=DiskUtility/10.5/en/duh17.html

Repairing permissions may also be recommended after updating the system or installing new software.

An idiot forum's FAQ AND Apple's own recommendations.  How did I know you'd try to blow it off as voodoo if I didn't mention Apple says to do it?  I'm just that good.

[naum]

You're not much of a worldly wise computer expert if you run an option to fix filesystem permissions because you found a reference to it on some idiot forum's FAQ. You don't know what it's doing, you just run it as if it were some magical ceremony that you need to perform. Maybe it wards off evil filesystem spirits. Who cares? The FAQ told you to do it.

I think that is the cause for so many borked computers (Mac or PC)… …people reading something off of a forum post and implementing it… …I myself am guilty of such a transgression in distant past times of ignorance…

[Yegolev]

The thing(s) that are messing up the permissions is the problem.  I don't know anything about a Mac but I can see that resetting permissions to defaults is a "what to tell end users to get them to go away" tactic.  Blindly following vendor docs is, indeed, a newbie tactic that should only be done when time is short and you have real vendor support; understanding root cause will prevent future borkifications and catchall fixes.  However, I'm speaking from the perspective of an actual support specialist, not a raw home user, and am not familiar with the particular weaknesses of OSX.

[Kitsune]

The thing(s) that are messing up the permissions is the problem.  I don't know anything about a Mac but I can see that resetting permissions to defaults is a "what to tell end users to get them to go away" tactic.  Blindly following vendor docs is, indeed, a newbie tactic that should only be done when time is short and you have real vendor support; understanding root cause will prevent future borkifications and catchall fixes.  However, I'm speaking from the perspective of an actual support specialist, not a raw home user, and am not familiar with the particular weaknesses of OSX.

Look, there's really nothing complicated about it.  Macs use fairly simple permission sets: read, write, and execute, and store them in relation to the object's owner, the file management user group, and everybody else.  If you install a program that goes batshit and decides that some random system file needs to be read-only, you've fucked the system.  To combat this, the system stores the information about the default permissions for the system files, as well as any Apple software installed on it, and can go down the list and set all of those files back to their original state.  The repair tool isn't blindly setting every file to the same permission, and it doesn't obey permission lists on any non-Apple software, just in case the borked program with the bad permission setting in its install routine also has the bad permission setting in its log file.

This doesn't involve giant space hamsters shooting gamma rays into your computer to make the gerbils revolt and stop running in the little wheels.  This is a perfectly sensible solution to a perfectly possible problem, no mystery involved.  And unlike what Righ's bizarre ramblings hint at, it can't hurt anything unless, for some reason, you have manually and intentionally altered a permission on a system file, and setting it back to the factory default will somehow make something else stop working.

[Murgos]

If your programs are changing permissions on system files stop installing them as root.

[Righ]

He's trolling. If there were an ignore feature, I'd use it. Instead I'll just read the site even less than I already do.

[Yegolev]

Slow day, I'll continue.

The repair tool isn't blindly setting every file to the same permission,

I would hope not, since that would be a dictionary definition of "stupid".  I had assumed that it kept a record somewhere of default permissions for things, like 0644 for /etc/hosts or whathaveyou, but I would not trust that either.  If such a tool was available on the OS I supported, I would only run it under dire conditions.  I'd be far more likely to just restore from the last OS backup, since there are probably non-standard perms out there that we need.  The real thing to do is figure out which permission is wrong and fix it.

Also, what Murgos said, but that would supposedly surface in the root-cause analysis.  It also happens when you are not root.  For example, I know that an Oracle upgrade is going to strip the group-write bits from lots of directories in the $ORACLE_HOME tree.  Among other things, it breaks backups.  I figured this out after a few upgrades and it's just the way that these things work due to the upgrade process, but I know what needs to be changed and I do it manually: chmod -R g+w works fantastically and does not open up any security holes worth noticing but it is incredibly sloppy; I try to change just the ones I need to in order to make it work.  If there was some tool that went around setting default permissions on things... well, geez, can't you see why that is bad?

Once again, I am speaking as someone who does this for a living and my shit breaks down when you apply it to normal users.  I'm just raging against generic fix-all tools, not calling you a moron or anything, but this reminds me of the people who want me to set file perms to 777 for them.  I also know that root-cause analysis is not always an option, many times you just want to fix it now and let God sort'em out, but a little thought goes a long way and could keep you from doing a lot of extra work.

Also, one of my favorite sayings: it takes a lot of work to be lazy.

I think I have officially left the original topic.

[Sky]

Also, one of my favorite sayings: it takes a lot of work to be lazy.

I'm totally stealing that one.

[Morat20]

he was getting old and the public defender girl had big boobas.

My young, teenaged self used to lust after Markie Post like you wouldn't believe.  Sweet Jesus, but that woman was smoking hot back in the day.

I knew that, one day, we would agree on something.

[Murgos]

Also, what Murgos said, but that would supposedly surface in the root-cause analysis.  It also happens when you are not root.  For example, I know that an Oracle upgrade is going to strip the group-write bits from lots of directories in the $ORACLE_HOME tree.

This would be because Oracle presumably has permission to diddle with files in the Oracle group.  There is really no way you can install something and have it dork around with files it doesn't own.  Unless, of course, you are installing as root.

In my limited experience most Linux/Unix/BSD etc... errors are caused by improper permissions settings.

[Kitsune]

Also, what Murgos said, but that would supposedly surface in the root-cause analysis.  It also happens when you are not root.  For example, I know that an Oracle upgrade is going to strip the group-write bits from lots of directories in the $ORACLE_HOME tree.

It does; I've only gone to the root account once on my iBook, and it was so long ago I don't even recall what setting I was changing that required those credentials.  Despite that, on multiple occasions the permission fixer changed some file permissions when I ran it.  Mostly having to do with printer config files, so it's likely the fault of Epson's shitty software.

Once again, I am speaking as someone who does this for a living and my shit breaks down when you apply it to normal users.  I'm just raging against generic fix-all tools, not calling you a moron or anything, but this reminds me of the people who want me to set file perms to 777 for them.

That kind of user exactly fits my original point.  If you're working as a troubleshooter, you have to know the horrifying number of people who can't grasp why setting their files to full control for all users is a bad idea.  Or why they shouldn't be logged in as root on a *nix box, or an admin on Windows.  They don't know, and even if you tell them, they still won't know, because they somehow can't comprehend that striding through their computer with the power of God means they can destroy the OS with a misplaced keypress.

That kind of user is dangerous with ANY computer more powerful than a Speak 'n Spell.  They might manage to not destroy a PalmOS handheld, but a truly dedicated soul can wreck them too, in the same way that a person confronted with a 'Check Engine' light in their car will 'fix' it by putting tape over the light.  OS X can't save these people from themselves, and it can't train a computer-illiterate person how to use it, no matter how much advertising budget Apple may throw at saying otherwise.

I think I have officially left the original topic.

The original topic derailed the instant the Mac lovers hit the thread and came to the mistaken conclusion that I was sullying the holy grail when I generally like the OS; it's Apple itself that annoys me.  I've carried my iBook into MS seminars, taped a badly-drawn Windows logo over the big glowing apple, and used the thing to VPN into my office and open a terminal session on my desktop during the slow parts.

[Furiously]

I liked it when the conversation turned to Markie Post.

[Miasma]

Me too, night court reruns would be on when I came home from school, she was awesome.  I still have an image burned into my mind of her in some reflective weird dress from an episode where I think her dad visits and gives it to her as an awkward present.

[naum]

[pants]

Kitsune, you need to talk to This guy - I'm sure he can show you the error of your ways.

[Kitsune]

That dude's a total poser, he just got into Macs with the first flat-panel iMac.  My second computer was a Mac Plus, after a TRS-80 and before a Tandy 1000 TX.

[Yegolev]

In my limited experience most Linux/Unix/BSD etc... errors are caused by improper permissions settings.

Certainly when you are using a vendor script, which is when you are installing/upgrading things.  It also confuses people/scripts when you modify their umask, which amounts to the same thing.

We implemented a script that strips off the other-write bit from every file on every system, once per month.  People don't like that, but it makes me smirk.