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Author Topic: End game? Raids?  (Read 50672 times)
Tmon
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Reply #175 on: August 02, 2007, 09:03:15 AM

I'm in danger of trickling away. 
Currently playing ST Legacy for the 360 and making-history.com

I've trickled away myself.  I spent a week away from home and my computer and realised when I got back that I had no compelling reason to log in; so I cancelled.  It meant giving up the founder's rate but since I rarely go back to games I've quit it's no big loss.  I'm not particularly interested in any of the games in the pipeline and since there's a new combination coffee shop and game store near the house I may end up playing some kind of in person game again.  If nothing else they have monthly sealed deck Magic tournements that I can get into for less than MMOs charge.
Venkman
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Reply #176 on: August 02, 2007, 09:43:33 AM

I'd like to see raiding cut down to one full-size group, maybe two. I'd like to see this implemented before the majority of the playerbase hits the later levels rather than after the fact when they realize they aren't retaining endgamers because they can't muster the appropriate force size in appropriate frequency.

I think they already have what you are asking for, as the end game dungeons like Cair Dun and Urugarth are already mini-raids, and damn annoying ones at that. It takes about an hour to reach Urugarth and longer to reach CD as you fight through pointless trash outside the instance. Then the trash begins in serious numbers inside. Most groups I've done  CD with always want to skip a lot of the mobs and then one group member goes LD and has to try to make it back alone from zone in. It rarely works; then a couple more decide to go back and help then they die too and it spirals out of contro. Even if they convert all the 24 man raids into 12 mans you're still going to have to deal with that crap.



I totally agree. To me, "raiding" is the entire event, from log in to log out. Most people do not have time to sit down for multi-hour sessions or the genre wouldn't continually drive towards more casualization. Turbine seems to have taken a step back here. Maybe it wasn't tuned enough, or they paid too close attention to the only beta-testers that accessed that content. Seems to me you don't want to design Raids for today's Raiders but rather design them for today's gamers. You'll get the Raiders no matter what you do, but there aren't enough of them to pin the hopes of your entire endgame business needs on them.

You should be able to log in, join raid, enter the raid zone, complete it and log out within a few cumulative hours, allowing for incremental log outs through the week (otherwise why have the RaidID used in some games). And your graveyard should be in the zone, behind a safe wall no mob trains will cross. Or it should be just outside the entrance not surrounded by mobs. Whatever gets in the way of the players before they start raiding has got to be considered as part of the total "raid experience" or it's just categorized as annoying cockblockery.
Phred
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Reply #177 on: August 02, 2007, 02:54:10 PM

Honestly, and I was thinking again to Xanthippe's position, I don't see this dreaded direction LotRO is heaading to. It's obvious they have to give some love to the raiders, but I still can't see why they should stop making content for groups. LotRO has its audience and it's not a WoW kind of audience. I seriously think it will stay a mainly group oriented MMORPG, and it's not because of the first patch (which again is for the 90% filled with non-raid content) that we can predict an incoming raid dictatorship.
t.

I think this is a  bit of creative bending of the truth. I was 30 when evendim came out and have done litteraly all the quests in the zone and I'l say closer to 30-50% are group quests, lableled or not. Some of them are freaking tough to do solo like the ones in the valley with the beast men series but in general most quests there are properly labeled and soloable.

Compared to the Agamaur quests they replaced they are a soloer's dream really.

Phred
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Reply #178 on: August 02, 2007, 03:17:35 PM

[
I totally agree. To me, "raiding" is the entire event, from log in to log out. Most people do not have time to sit down for multi-hour sessions or the genre wouldn't continually drive towards more casualization. Turbine seems to have taken a step back here. Maybe it wasn't tuned enough, or they paid too close attention to the only beta-testers that accessed that content. Seems to me you don't want to design Raids for today's Raiders but rather design them for today's gamers. You'll get the Raiders no matter what you do, but there aren't enough of them to pin the hopes of your entire endgame business needs on them.


Exactly. The main problem comes from a combination of factors imo. The design of elite mobs is the start. It takes a ridiculous about of time for a full group to bring one down, thus making the killing of trash annoyingly painful. That combined with the cordon of elite mobs they put surrounding dungeon/raid content adds to the tedium. Hell, the only dungeon I can think of that doesn't use this pardigm is Helegrod where you walk up the twisted stairs through mostly light grreen mob, Their 20k and 30k mobs should be reserved as guards in a boss encount, not as wandering patrols on a quarter mile long stairway.

Quote
You should be able to log in, join raid, enter the raid zone, complete it and log out within a few cumulative hours, allowing for incremental log outs through the week (otherwise why have the RaidID used in some games). And your graveyard should be in the zone, behind a safe wall no mob trains will cross. Or it should be just outside the entrance not surrounded by mobs. Whatever gets in the way of the players before they start raiding has got to be considered as part of the total "raid experience" or it's just categorized as annoying cockblockery.

Theire raid flag system is a  bit better than originally describe though still not perfect. I was able to do two trips to helegord last week because the second guild hadn't killed the spider and neither had I.
gravdiggr
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Reply #179 on: August 03, 2007, 05:44:05 AM

I don't understand why Turbine hasn't put DDO best feature in this game. In DDO, you can repeat quests as often as you want if you want multiple items from the reward list. Because of that, people do some of the group quests many times and looking for group isn't an amazing pain in the ass.
When the population at your level is scarce, and all you have left requires group/raid, you'd better have good incentive for people to redo content they have already done.
Phred
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Reply #180 on: August 03, 2007, 11:11:45 AM

I don't understand why Turbine hasn't put DDO best feature in this game. In DDO, you can repeat quests as often as you want if you want multiple items from the reward list. Because of that, people do some of the group quests many times and looking for group isn't an amazing pain in the ass.
When the population at your level is scarce, and all you have left requires group/raid, you'd better have good incentive for people to redo content they have already done.

Ya and as I've said, no game provides less incentiiive to go back to an instnce you've done than LoTR. Unless you are helping a friend or guildmate there is absolutely no reason I can think of to ever go back to one. I way pefered WoW for thism where I remember going back multiple tims to the wailing caverns dispiite having finished all the quests there. Not to mention Scarlet Monestary,

« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 01:41:57 PM by Phred »
cmlancas
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Reply #181 on: August 06, 2007, 04:33:20 AM

I agree. I understand that Turbine wants people to get away from the dungeon grind farmfest, but there should at least be a little bit of incentive to go back. It creates a huge dichotomy between those who have and those who have not.

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Venkman
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Reply #182 on: August 06, 2007, 09:06:19 AM

I agree as well. Unless they start getting into a true cycle of advancing the storyline monthly, they need to give people something to do meanwhile. Heck, how often do the people of Eriador continue to return to places to ply the resources from them? Wasn't like the Fellowship was the first to enter Moria, nor didn't return in some form :) And Elves? Come on. If you live forever, you're bound to see something more than once ;)
cmlancas
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Reply #183 on: August 06, 2007, 06:19:59 PM

Perhaps they could add some xp/gold/item/craft content that isn't gamebreaking but still fun for the higher levels?

Something akin to Zul'Gurub or Velk's Lab?

I think that farmable gear is completely against Turbine's agenda, but if there were some decent tradeable items or crafting mats from instance runs, perhaps we would see more repeats.


On another note, why not award Destiny Points for helping others do quests multiple times? Make it so that it isn't horribly abusable: 100DP for the first, 50 for the second, 25 for the third, etc, etc.

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Venkman
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Reply #184 on: August 06, 2007, 07:57:46 PM

Personally, I think Moria sets the perfect stage for repeatable content. Between the long-buried/rumoured Mithril and the various odds and ends the Orcs have picked up since kicking the Balin and his kin out/dead, there's quite a lot of opportunity for expeditionary forces to make repeated incursions into the place. They need to make the zone anyway if we're going to continue helping the Fellowship behind the scenes. I can see many different quests where we're asked to cut down on the number of Orcs that catch up to them in the Library, or at the bridge. Then there's that big Boss encounter :)

So yea, I'm with you on adding repeatable rewards. I think Moria would be perfect for it. Maybe Dul Guldor, which the Fellowship never goes to, but which featured big in Sauron's (and Gandalf's) life before Mordor. Gotta be things to uncover there too, and that's not so far from a content/world standpoint from Moria nor Lothlórien.
gravdiggr
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Reply #185 on: August 07, 2007, 07:20:27 AM

I'm really not sure turbine is against farmable content. Your class quest, at 45, requires drops from named in Urugarth and Carn Dum. Obviously, the drop rates for these items isn't 100% and each item is used by more than 1 class. So chances are you'll have to do these dungeons multiple times.

One of the bosses in Urugarth was close to the entrance. We actually reset the instance 5 times to get the item for everyone in our group. The funny thing is that i saw 4 different items on this boss loot table. It might be even deeper. So if you want a particular item off this boss, you'll probably have to farm the place a while.

Then again, that's the easiest way to do content for people at max level so i shouldn't be surprised.
Phred
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Reply #186 on: August 07, 2007, 07:50:13 AM

I'm really not sure turbine is against farmable content. Your class quest, at 45, requires drops from named in Urugarth and Carn Dum. Obviously, the drop rates for these items isn't 100% and each item is used by more than 1 class. So chances are you'll have to do these dungeons multiple times.


And all the trash stuff you have to collect doesn't support this against farming theory in the slightest. 25 worm scales, 15 bat talons and a 10 or so of a couple of other things I forget now for my guardian's quest. Or legendary trait books? Damn that looks a hell of a lot like farming. And if they are so against farming why are the mob traits in higher level zones 320 or more. Sure looks like farming to me. I tried doing the warg and bear ones in misty mountains while mining only killing bears or wargs that agro'd me and damn it would take forever to finish them if you don't buckle down and start killing exclusively. After a while I just had to ask myself. is 30 hp worth this work. the answer,for me, was no.

As to the idea of having multiple quests in Moria, I suspect they'd just fuck it up by surrounding the mines with a 2 mile wide cordon of elite mobs you have to fight through. If you haven't done Augmar they already tried something similar there where the quest objects were much less than even 3 ppl would need to finish the quest, thus requiring multiple trips back in. It was pretty horrible, especially when augmar was the only real place to level for the low 30's before they put in evendim.



« Last Edit: August 07, 2007, 08:01:51 AM by Phred »
Hound
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Reply #187 on: August 07, 2007, 02:23:03 PM

I'm really not sure turbine is against farmable content. Your class quest, at 45, requires drops from named in Urugarth and Carn Dum. Obviously, the drop rates for these items isn't 100% and each item is used by more than 1 class. So chances are you'll have to do these dungeons multiple times.

One of the bosses in Urugarth was close to the entrance. We actually reset the instance 5 times to get the item for everyone in our group. The funny thing is that i saw 4 different items on this boss loot table. It might be even deeper. So if you want a particular item off this boss, you'll probably have to farm the place a while.

Then again, that's the easiest way to do content for people at max level so i shouldn't be surprised.

The drop rate will be increased to 100% in book 10. http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=75147&page=6&highlight=winged+dominance

 That was about a stupid way to do things. Once again I  am glad I played alts a couple of weeks waiting on the Evendim expansion so I am slightly behind the front runners in our guild on the leveling curve but seem to be dead on track with the expansions now..

Given the number of failures we've seen in MMORPGs, designers need to learn it's hard enough just to make a fun game without getting distracted by unnecessary drivel.
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Reply #188 on: August 07, 2007, 03:32:29 PM

And all the trash stuff you have to collect doesn't support this against farming theory in the slightest. 25 worm scales, 15 bat talons and a 10 or so of a couple of other things I forget now for my guardian's quest. Or legendary trait books? Damn that looks a hell of a lot like farming. And if they are so against farming why are the mob traits in higher level zones 320 or more. Sure looks like farming to me. I tried doing the warg and bear ones in misty mountains while mining only killing bears or wargs that agro'd me and damn it would take forever to finish them if you don't buckle down and start killing exclusively. After a while I just had to ask myself. is 30 hp worth this work. the answer,for me, was no.
Reeking fanboyism maybe, but LotRO really isn't grindy in any major way.

Actually, none of that is that bad. I got my Lore of the Blade with a maximum of four hours farming (and it's completely kick-ass, I tell you! ;). I got three out of eight pages from normal questing and would have got two more while doing the relevant quests for the area (I didn't have them at the time.) You can be insanely unfortunate and spend many, many hours getting the last page, but that goes for every random drop system. Overall, it's not that bad considering the two I've farmed this far.

The class-quests aren't that bad either bar the last step with the raid drop (trade with guildies and buy cheap stacks from the AH when they appear), however they are said to start dropping in larger quantities so they'll find the AH at decent prices. Right now they're priced around 7 gold on my server, which is a lot of money, but not that much if you're really motivated. We're talking quested, epic gear, of course it's going to be a decent amount of work to get it. Post-Book 10 we should be seeing them at lower prices, especially as more and more people hit 50 and enter Helegrod.

As for virtues... yes, they are grindy. They will be lowered in Book 10, but they are also miniscule buffs, not crucial to your character. As you said yourself, they aren't worth it in general, but you'll complete them sooner or later. It's more like a nice extra when it happens rather than intended to be farmed.

In my opinion farming only gets bad if you -have- to farm insane amounts of hours just to get what you're meant to have, but as I see it now, none of those skills require that much effort after all. Sort of grindy, yes, heinous, not really. :)

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Reply #189 on: August 07, 2007, 03:43:38 PM

stuff

I agree except for the bit about traits. There are a few that are hugely useful, mostly the class and racial ones. Of course, you said "virtues" so I am guessing you only meant virtues and not all trait/deed rewards.

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Tarami
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Reply #190 on: August 07, 2007, 04:11:22 PM

I agree except for the bit about traits. There are a few that are hugely useful, mostly the class and racial ones. Of course, you said "virtues" so I am guessing you only meant virtues and not all trait/deed rewards.
I did mean virtues (as it was the example Phred brought up), but indeed, some are obnoxiously grindy. They are however in clear minority and even the class (use skill X Y times) deeds can be gained relatively painless by just altering your play style a bit. The later Enmity-deeds are however pain, I'll agree to that. (Enmity of the Drakes, booyah! <cries>)

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Reply #191 on: August 08, 2007, 03:52:44 AM

I meant gear-farming, not quest farming.

How many of you in this thread sat for days at the Frenzied Ghoul just to get a chance for a FBSS?


That's gear-farming.

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Tarami
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Reply #192 on: August 08, 2007, 09:57:43 AM

...Frenzied Ghoul just to get a chance for a FBSS?

That's gear-farming.
Sorry, I don't understand Elite, you need to speak Nub. :-D
« Last Edit: August 08, 2007, 10:00:45 AM by Tarami »

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Nebu
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Reply #193 on: August 08, 2007, 09:59:51 AM

How many of you in this thread sat for days at the Frenzied Ghoul just to get a chance for a FBSS?

That's gear-farming.

I cry at the memory of how many hours of my life were wasted in Lower Guk.  It amazes me the things players tolerated endured in the early days of EQ. 

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Venkman
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Reply #194 on: August 08, 2007, 10:01:49 AM

Funny you mention LGuk. Merusk just posted a good impression of the feel of that era:

Lower Guk was THE ONLY place to get gear and xp once you hit ~48 in the original EQ.  You were playing at a time where there were options.  Sure there were prime places and those were overcrowded, that's a far cry from the same experience.   In the pre-kunark days, you'd login, stand at the zone entrance and shout that you'd like to be placed on the list for whatever spawn.  Whoever was in charge of the list would write your name down, often send you a tell saying what spot you were in the line for your role.  (Obviously mezzers and healers got in quicker, since there were fewer folks playing those classes)

You then got to sit there for your play session until your name was called.   There was no logging-on to play an alt, because the listholders usually wouldn't bother with you if you did that.  So instead, you stood there or just outside the zone waiting.  Sometimes it'd go quick because some of the people ahead of you logged, sometimes you'd just sit there your entire play session.  I recall several of my friends being "on the list" for 3-4 hours at a time before they just gave-up and logged for the night. 

That worked when EQ and UO were the ONLY games around - and even then not so much.  EQ got really hot AFTER that bullshit started to go away and the content was spread-out a lot more.  These days you may as well just put up the bankrupcy sign if you try that again, because people won't stand for it.  We're paying money to play the game, there'd better be content there for me to play instead of telling me to just wait around until it's my turn for fun.

So again, no, the people who want 'forced grouping' and 'non instanced everything' DON'T usually remember that horrible suckfest, but instead are referring to some later point of EQ's history when there was more content.  The Veloius-Luclin era you remember so fondly was nearly 3 years later, which is ~6 years after EQ first started dev.

Your UO-L2 reference is invalid because even thoug L2 had "open" pvp, it still favored the non-pvper.  Now, I'm going to be faulty on some of this because I didn't play UO and only briefly played L2 but I've read enough to realize the differences.   There's enough UO folks here to correct me if I misspeak, however.

Only "Red names" drop their equipment in L2 if I recall right.  In UO people figured out it was MUCH better to just let someone else do all the work of finding equipment, mining, getting reagents, then kill them and take it from them.   Players were the phat looz.  You could killl anyone and fully loot them and all their equipment.  If you got really lucky, then they were a dumbass and had their house key on them and you'd be able to take all that as well.

Small difference in the two systems, yeah?  Which is why I say people who pine for the system usually weren't actually there.  They imagine something more like L2, or Shadowbane or the other 'open' pvp systems that have come out, or the later times when houses and other stuff could be locked-down.  They don't REALLY imagine the UO system and the ability to lose EVERYTHING you've got because you got PK'd.


gravdiggr
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Reply #195 on: August 08, 2007, 10:06:32 AM

In terms of farming, i went from 41 to 43 just by killing for the pages for one of my book. Now at 50, i still havent finished another book (stuck on 3/4 pages, been 9 hours since last page dropped). Of course, perhaps the drop rate for hunters is abysmal because we kill faster, but i dont want to know how many mobs i've killed so far for that stupid page. That said, i'm reknown for my shitty luck with rare drops in mmo so it might be normal.

The funny thing is that when i got to 41, i had almost no solo quest left. The grind from farming for pages actually allowed me to bring some solo content within reach.
(i still think the angmar/misty content is a lot crappier than the early game content, but it's normal considering what was mostly beta tested). When the game released, quests were fine until you arrived at north down. The critical mass either didnt get to north down in beta or the dev didnt get to polish from that point on.

Angmar, in particular, is a serious pain in the ass to quest in. Between the 2000 archers on road, the invisible spiders that root and the fact there's no horse route to get to the ranger camp or the dwarf fortress, it is an exercise in frustration getting anywhere in the zone. Getting to Carn dum or Urugarth is also one of the biggest waste of time i've had the displeasure of knowing in an mmo endgame.
Venkman
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Reply #196 on: August 08, 2007, 11:24:55 AM

The thing I like about the Deeds is that, yea, it's farming, but you can do that while doing other things, or if you don't feel like doing other things. I don't get to play often these days, and there are times I just don't feel like grouping or instancing. It is better if I can do a Deed while finishing a Quest (like Killing X Orc in North Downs). But that's not a requirement either.

It's like EQ1 faction farming except for a more personal reward.
Phred
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Reply #197 on: August 08, 2007, 04:35:42 PM


Angmar, in particular, is a serious pain in the ass to quest in. Between the 2000 archers on road, the invisible spiders that root and the fact there's no horse route to get to the ranger camp or the dwarf fortress, it is an exercise in frustration getting anywhere in the zone. Getting to Carn dum or Urugarth is also one of the biggest waste of time i've had the displeasure of knowing in an mmo endgame.

Don't forget the 1 graveyard in the whole zone. Sucks major ass if you die with no rezzer around.
On page drop mobs. I have a feeling they drop from the mobs in certain areas more than others. I spent 3 days trying to get guardian pages off fire worms in that swamp in Angmar, and got 1. Then while passing through I noticed a worm up on the banks above the swamp dropped a page, so I stuck around that area and got all my pages in about 3-4 hours.
Phred
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Reply #198 on: August 08, 2007, 04:39:12 PM

The thing I like about the Deeds is that, yea, it's farming, but you can do that while doing other things, or if you don't feel like doing other things. I don't get to play often these days, and there are times I just don't feel like grouping or instancing. It is better if I can do a Deed while finishing a Quest (like Killing X Orc in North Downs). But that's not a requirement either.

It's like EQ1 faction farming except for a more personal reward.

North Downs deeds are trivial to get. Wait until you get to higher level zones and are looking at 420 to max the second part of the deed. It's not something you can do while doing other things, as was already covered by a previous post.

Venkman
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Reply #199 on: August 08, 2007, 05:56:39 PM

Bah, people always say that like I'll survive to that point in the game :) I have a very low threshold for that sorta thing. As it is, the 260 Orcs I need for the second part of this Deed I wouldn't bother with unless some of it was supported by quests. I'm very much not a completest when doing so means hammering my head.
Phred
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Reply #200 on: August 09, 2007, 02:13:25 AM

Bah, people always say that like I'll survive to that point in the game :) I have a very low threshold for that sorta thing. As it is, the 260 Orcs I need for the second part of this Deed I wouldn't bother with unless some of it was supported by quests. I'm very much not a completest when doing so means hammering my head.

Ya I get kind of anal about filling out as much of my char as I can, especially at max level, and that particular deed did give nice stats for a tank (30 or so hp per level. Not much for 1 but it adds up when you have 7 or 9) As it was though, once I hit 50 and maxed my metalworking, which was a major grind in itself (like 1.1 ancient iron bars per skill point), looking at those deeds and how little dent a couple of hours killing put in them just had me going fuck it. Unfortunately, other than repeating the same 2 instances over and over, that's about it for the end game in LoTR right now. Combine that with the incredibly pointless nerf to horses and bleed effects on guardians I just said fuck it and went back to WoW.

zubey
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Reply #201 on: August 09, 2007, 11:37:41 AM

Since this thread is about endgame, here're the recently announced changes to PvMP in Book 10 (the next free expansion)

http://lotro.turbine.com/article/392
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Reply #202 on: August 09, 2007, 04:06:04 PM

The future addition of a dedicated healer for the creeps will be interesting. I'm also interested to see how the healing buffs they've added to existing classes will change things.

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Reply #203 on: September 17, 2007, 07:22:09 AM

I don't understand why it's just assumed now that anything mmo needs 'end-game' and 'raids'. I see red when I'm playing a fun game and mmogtards start spewing that shit.

Because there's such a dearth of games with raids and endgames for you to waste your time with.

I agree. I have always felt, if an "End-game" is required, then something is seriously wrong with the "Body" of the game. As in, the journey must have sucked if the destination is the only goal.

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Venkman
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Reply #204 on: September 17, 2007, 08:01:50 AM

Endgames are for people who don't want the game to end at the level cap and from companies that can't afford to have an endless stream of brand new content (like, everyone).

If you want the game to be over at the cap, great!
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #205 on: September 17, 2007, 08:34:46 AM

Endgames are for people who don't want the game to end at the level cap and from companies that can't afford to have an endless stream of brand new content (like, everyone).

If you want the game to be over at the cap, great!

I think you missed my point.






Also, i have never been one to like levels in the first place. Its just a sliding scale, and your fighting creatures that are basically the same threat as the ones you fought at level 1, you both just have more numbers now.

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Venkman
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Reply #206 on: September 17, 2007, 12:55:36 PM

Maybe it's just a misnomer. "End-game" implies something one does at the end of the game. However, this is not the case. Rather, end-games are really something you do to continue growing/customizing your experience, which most times just means your character, but sometimes includes virtual holdings.

In other words, the end-game in these games is just as much a path-oriented progression as the level 1-cap game is, albeit at a different and/or slower pace. So just like the level 1-cap game, some need to like the progression in order to fully appreciate the rewards.

Basically, there is no "end game", because there is no end. Unless you voluntarily quit :)
Mrbloodworth
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Reply #207 on: September 17, 2007, 02:17:24 PM

Maybe it's just a misnomer. "End-game" implies something one does at the end of the game. However, this is not the case. Rather, end-games are really something you do to continue growing/customizing your experience, which most times just means your character, but sometimes includes virtual holdings.

In other words, the end-game in these games is just as much a path-oriented progression as the level 1-cap game is, albeit at a different and/or slower pace. So just like the level 1-cap game, some need to like the progression in order to fully appreciate the rewards.

Basically, there is no "end game", because there is no end. Unless you voluntarily quit :)

I understand what it is.

I still say: I have always felt, if an "End-game" is required, then something is seriously wrong with the "Body" of the game. As in, the journey must have sucked if the destination is the only goal.

And why "End-game" seems to just be another word for "Raiding" (As in huge areas requiring lots of people, and many hours) is also something that is wrong with gamers expectations.

This is a problem.

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Venkman
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Reply #208 on: September 17, 2007, 03:12:48 PM

Players determine whether to focus on the endgame or on the path. The game doesn't decide that for you. DIKU-inspired games are all about giving you just enough rewards to keep you playing for the next one. Some people want to cut through the low rewards to get to the "endgame" rewards, but that doesn't mean they're finished. They just want to skip the lowbie path to get to the endgame path. Someone who grinds through the level 70 in WoW is doing so to be at the level where they can raid to get better gear. It's the same path. "Endgame" is not a goal. It's just a milestone.

Unless they're there to PvP in BGs or Arenas. But those, too, are about having fun on different paths to achieve incremental goals to be better at achieving incremental goals. And then there's how different a pre-NGE SWG "endgame" is from WoW. And UO. And SB. And Eve.

As to Raids in a DIKU, yea, it's an old and semi-boring formula. Seems to work for now. But I prefer the theory of a well-implemented open-world type lifestyle as an endgame, ala pre-NGE SWG, UO, SB, and Eve :)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 03:23:37 PM by Darniaq »
lamaros
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Reply #209 on: September 19, 2007, 10:28:45 PM

Endgame is just another way of saying "something to do for those of you who hate leveling"

Leveling + Quests are not really fun unless they lead somewhere for many people. And "end game" is a solid goal where you get to fuck off the grind and enjoy the things you want to do, not the ones you have to.

"I want to go to fight dragons!" "Sorry, you have to crawl through 30 hours of collecting pumpkins first." "But will I ever get to do it?" "Sure you wiil! Dragons and all your other desires are what awaits you in the End Game, when you can finally say goodbye to all this shitty other stuff we have you do and just do what you want!"

Which is not to say that all, or even most, people dislike levels or quests and shit. But for those that do an "end game" promises something else that might actually be fun - because it's different.
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