Why I can't take organized religion seriously #1001001SOS

[Furiously]

Thank god we cut that tree down last week so you will quit peeping in our windows now.

[Sky]

Well, if you can attribute the rising rates of heart disease and type II diabetes to something else, I'm all ears.  I work in healthcare.

I work in IT but I can't tell you why your SQL is returning garbage :P

Above I admit the link to type 2 diabetes. I've seen conflicting evidence on the heart disease front. Surely heart failure if one is /really/ obese and partaking in vigorous activity, but that could happen to any sedentary person. The strongest evidence I've seen has pointed to genetic disorders over weight. We don't go pointing at skinny people who develop heart disease and say they need to eat more and exercise less.

I should mention my best friend is truly (non-BMI) obese genetically and is one of the baddest assest workers I've ever met. We've built roofs, done landscaping, moving, food service, a lot of physically demanding stuff. I brought him in when I was managing the walmart docks, he was by far the fastest and hardest worker we had. So anyone who talks about 'fatties' just being lazy and gluttonous can eat my shorts.

And to reiterate on BMI - it's complete nonsense. When I was unloading trucks I weighed 175 at 5'11", which is borderline overweight. I was solid sinewy muscle, so skinny everyone thought I should see a doctor, I ate massive meals and was always eating snacks because my metabolism was ridiculously high. The 'food pyramid' is bought and fucking sold by special interest, as is the CDC and the FDA.

Sorry this is disjointed, it's 15 minutes past quitting time, gotta go.

[HaemishM]

Nebu, I think part of the problem with that patient's list of prescriptions you mentioned is the overuse of pharmaceutical marketing. The marketing subtly tells people "FIX ALL YOUR PROBLEMS WITH THESE WONDER PILLS!" They don't actually cure much of shit, they string the symptoms along or claim to give you a better chance of not getting something. But really... lipitor? Do we need that shit? Is altering diet not enough to get cholestorl down quickly enough that you have to supplement it with pills? Unless you tell me this person was 400 pounds or on the absolute any-minute verge of a heart attack, why does this person need it? And Ultram? That shit is strong opiate pain mojo. With all those meds? Fuck, I'm surprised the person hasn't had an Elvis death on the toilet.

[Riggswolfe]

I'm going to be moving a treadmill into my house that used to belong to a relative in hopes that this will help things.

It doesn't. You would have to use the treadmill as well. Moving it around doesn't burn that many calories.

I don't know...ours weighs a couple of hundred pounds easy. It is not a trivial workout to mandhandle that bastard around.

Yeah, this one weighs about the same. It's old like...mid 90's old.

[Merusk]

Again, BMI is aimed at folks with a sedentary lifestyle.  SITTING ON YOUR ASS.. AKA, very little muscle.    It's a cop-out easy-solution way to tell fatasses, hey, jackass, you're too fat.  People with muscle mass enough to be above and beyond the BMI crap should, I would think, have the knowledge of what's appropriate for their size. 

But then, some folks you don't believe that there's an Energy crisis, either. Or that the magic sky person will gift scientists with a way of miraculously creating energy from nothing, to fix it 'just in time!' so why is this surprising.

[Nebu]

Nebu, I think part of the problem with that patient's list of prescriptions you mentioned is the overuse of pharmaceutical marketing. The marketing subtly tells people "FIX ALL YOUR PROBLEMS WITH THESE WONDER PILLS!" They don't actually cure much of shit, they string the symptoms along or claim to give you a better chance of not getting something. But really... lipitor? Do we need that shit? Is altering diet not enough to get cholestorl down quickly enough that you have to supplement it with pills?

Many obese people also suffer familial hypercholesterolemia so an HMG CoA reductase inhibitor does do them some good. 

The main reson for the pharmaceutical problem is that people want that shit.  The beta blockers, calcium channel blockers, diuretics, and anticoags all make sense.  Much of the rest is a judgement call.  I'll tell you that hospital administrators want come back business, so giving the patient what they want is one of the severe downfalls in our fucked up healthcare system. 

You don't have to be a genius to realize that obesity is a serious issue in the US and is doing a great deal to drive up healthcare costs.  You can't have a BMI over 35 and consider yourself healthy no matter how long you live.  Just look at the BMI averages per state over the past 20 years.  They correlate quite nicely with heart disease, diabetes, and the newest piece of medical garbage: metabolic syndrome (which I think is a buzzword for more pharmaceutical nonsense).

I agree with you Haemish.  I think people are popping way more pills than they should ... and I train pharmacists and MD's.  Americans are way more focused on short-term fixes than they are preventative medicine.  I advocate a healthy lifestyle and I also walk-the-walk.     

[Triforcer]

I'm still riding a super hyper fast metabolism at 25 (I could eat nothing but packages of oreos for a week and not rise about 180, I am 5" 10", I hover around 170-175).  This thread reminds me I have to start exercising before it conks out 

[Paelos]

There's a large difference in giving fat people a reality check and actively verbally assaulting them.

The reason it's easy to make fun of fat people is because it's a condition stemmed mostly from laziness. People can love to eat and be fine if they move around. Hell, swimmers I knew in college could destroy all-u-can eat places like packs of ravenous locusts. The problem in America is the whole "This is how I am and you're an asshole if you tell me it's wrong" mentality we spoonfeed to kids today, in between spoonfeeding them massive amounts of sugar.

Oh and the whole fatness genetic thing is mostly crap. "Oh my mom and dad were fat, so that's why I'm fat." No, you're fat because your mom and dad overfed you and themselves, and they never led by example for you to get off your ass.

[Strazos]

I don't know...ours weighs a couple of hundred pounds easy. It is not a trivial workout to mandhandle that bastard around.

Heh, they usually come with wheels attached. Oddly enough, I find them easier to move around Before being unpacked.

There's a large difference in giving fat people a reality check and actively verbally assaulting them.

The reason it's easy to make fun of fat people is because it's a condition stemmed mostly from laziness. People can love to eat and be fine if they move around. Hell, swimmers I knew in college could destroy all-u-can eat places like packs of ravenous locusts. The problem in America is the whole "This is how I am and you're an asshole if you tell me it's wrong" mentality we spoonfeed to kids today, in between spoonfeeding them massive amounts of sugar.

Oh and the whole fatness genetic thing is mostly crap. "Oh my mom and dad were fat, so that's why I'm fat." No, you're fat because your mom and dad overfed you and themselves, and they never led by example for you to get off your ass.

 :-D

[Roac]

But it is "boohooing" when so many people refuse to accept responsibility. Instead, far too many people come up with excuses and blame some other entity.

I agree with personal responsibility.  Very much so, and not just on this issue (most of the issues I get criticized here for are with regards to feeling people need to be accountable for their own actions).  I think that damn near any activity that inflicts self-harm in this manner is a bad idea.  You have the responsibility to take care of yourself, for your own sake as well as society's sake (loved ones watching you suffer resulting health issues, greater society having to foot the bill, etc).  

But personal responsibility has nothing to do with insults or jokes at their expense.  And at least overweight people aren't intentionally trying to be harmful to someone else by their bad habbits.

[Signe]

You are all ridiculous and can piss right off.  Fatties are jolly.  And snuggly!  Snuggle a fattiy today! 

Dammit.

[Paelos]

You are all ridiculous and can piss right off.  Fatties are jolly.  And snuggly!  Snuggle a fattiy today! 

Dammit.

Just more of them to love!

Btw, I love the numerous directions this thread has taken. It's like a rollercoaster ride of complete nonsense.

[Abagadro]

A lot of mormons are fat. Utah has the highest per capita consumption of ice cream in the U.S.

That and anti-depressants.




/bringing it full circle

[Sky]

Just look at the BMI averages per state over the past 20 years.  They correlate quite nicely with heart disease, diabetes, and the newest piece of medical garbage: metabolic syndrome (which I think is a buzzword for more pharmaceutical nonsense).

And global warming corresponds to the decrease in the amount of pirates and ninjas.

[Endie]

My trouble with the "poor guy, he has a slow metabolism" or "lucky me, I just have a fast metabolism" is that if James and John do the same amount of exercise, and James can eat 20% more food because of his "fast metabolism", then he should be glowing red with heat.  The energy has to go somewhere, after all.

I would find it easier to buy if he had a "poor metabolism".  That is, if he just wasn't very good at digesting food and extracting te relevant fats and sugars.

[Valmorian]

Just look at the BMI averages per state over the past 20 years.  They correlate quite nicely with heart disease, diabetes, and the newest piece of medical garbage: metabolic syndrome (which I think is a buzzword for more pharmaceutical nonsense).

And global warming corresponds to the decrease in the amount of pirates and ninjas.

While correlation isn't causation, sometimes what appears to be causation really is.  It's easy to bring up the "global warming vs. pirates" canard about correlation vs. causation, but do you honestly think that the BMI average increase is completely unrelated to the increase in diabetes, heart disease and other ailments that are often linked to unhealthy lifestyles?

[HaemishM]

but do you honestly think that the BMI average increase is completely unrelated...

to the steroids and other crap they've been injecting into meat animals to make them grow leaner/quicker/more profitably?

The shit we are eating now is NOT the shit we were eating 20 years ago. I shudder to fucking think what they've been pumping into the cows in my hamburger to get them to be more profitable crops. Because it isn't just the meat, it's the milk that I drink which also makes the cheese that I eat with the hamburger. I fully expect to grow a third arm out of my taint before it's all said and done.

[Nebu]

Just look at the BMI averages per state over the past 20 years.  They correlate quite nicely with heart disease, diabetes, and the newest piece of medical garbage: metabolic syndrome (which I think is a buzzword for more pharmaceutical nonsense).

And global warming corresponds to the decrease in the amount of pirates and ninjas.

If there's something you'd like to discuss, I'll be happy to do my best to provide case-based evidence.  If the point you're trying to make is that every study has weaknesses, I can't really argue with that.  It's one of the reasons that it took so long to convince cigarette manufacturers that their product causes cancer or convincing politicians that the planet is suffering from global warming.  

[Nebu]

to the steroids and other crap they've been injecting into meat animals to make them grow leaner/quicker/more profitably?

The shit we are eating now is NOT the shit we were eating 20 years ago. I shudder to fucking think what they've been pumping into the cows in my hamburger to get them to be more profitable crops. Because it isn't just the meat, it's the milk that I drink which also makes the cheese that I eat with the hamburger. I fully expect to grow a third arm out of my taint before it's all said and done.

I'd cite processed foods and a more sedentary lifestyle as being a greater contributor.  If you look at portion sizes and ingredient lists on today's foods you'll see more fat, more bad sugars (high fructose corn syrup), and generally higher calories.  Take a look at any fast food menu... people eat less fiber and more crap than they did 50 years ago because it's convenient and tasty to do so.  It's also sad to discover how few people take the time to prepare balanced meals today.  The small time investment can make a huge difference in the quality of calories you take in.  The old addage: "you are what you eat" may not be 100% correct, but it's not a bad generalization.  Even the new "Low fat" fad foods aren't really any better than the old alternatives.  They replace natural fats with highly processed carbs and seldom have fewer calories. 

Take in what you burn and your weight remains the same.  Take in fewer calories than your BMR and you lose weight.  It's pretty simple.  Lifting weights can be for more than just a vanity issue.  One reason I do it is because more muscle mass increases my basal metabolic rate meaning I can enjoy more of the foods that I like without any concern of gaining in BMI.

 

[Paelos]

I think the biggest problem is children. We're entering into a generation of kids who have lower life expectancies than their parents.

Childhood Obesity Statistics.

Here's the most shocking one to me:

- When asked to describe their weight, 30 percent of students thought of themselves as overweight.
- 12 percent of parents considered their child overweight.

Yeah, ponder where the breakdown is happening there.

[Morat20]

One thing we did with our son is teach him to eat right -- but we're running into problems there because he frets about how other kids see him, and because he's got a large frame and most of the kids in his class are the lean types, he feels fat. (The kid isn't packing anything but the smidge of baby-fat any pre-pubescent kid has. He's just built like a brick -- solid frame. Our doctor, who is a real hard-ass about overweight kids, has happily noted that our kid is exactly where he should be). So we're trying to make sure he learns healthy eating habits BUT that it doesn't feed into a negative self-image.

On the bright side, there really is a much better selection of healthy kids food than their used to be, if you look.

Want to know a great weight-loss tip? Buy an electric kettle. Switched my breakfast to oatmeal because it takes about 60 seconds to make, and it's damn good for you. Beats most breakfast options.

[Signe]

OATMEAL IS THE BEST THING IN THE WORLD FOR YOU!  EAT OATMEAL EVERY DAY!

I say that all the time.

[Paelos]

Yes, it is a proven fact that eating a healthy breakfast will in fact help you lose weight. The problem is that a lot of people here "Eat Breakfast" and they get a Crossanwich.

My perfect breakfast:

Two eggs (scrambled no butter), small bowl of oatmeal with berries and Splenda, Half-grapefruit with Splenda, Glass of 2% milk, 1/2 Decaf/regular Coffee. If that don't get your morning going, nothing will.

[Strazos]

I actually try not to eat breakfast; it tends to put me right back to sleep.

I actually had a problem late in high school where I actually had to avoid lunch when I could, because I would end up crashing during my lab period.

Going back and trying to read notes you tried to write while falling asleep is never fun.

[Riggswolfe]

Yes, it is a proven fact that eating a healthy breakfast will in fact help you lose weight.

How? I'm genuinely curious. I skip breakfast so wonder if I'm making a mistake.

[Samwise]

How? I'm genuinely curious. I skip breakfast so wonder if I'm making a mistake.

Theory is if you skip breakfast you're more apt to snack during the rest of the day.  Snacking is the devil.

[Righ]

Skipping breakfast is a mistake of BIBLICAL proportions. It's moroni.

[Morat20]

How? I'm genuinely curious. I skip breakfast so wonder if I'm making a mistake.

Theory is if you skip breakfast you're more apt to snack during the rest of the day.  Snacking is the devil.

I've heard that skipping breakfast is a crappy idea if you're trying for a good diet, or losing weight.

As for snacks -- if you are a snacker, best thing you can do is find healthy things to snack on.

[Merusk]

Yes, it is a proven fact that eating a healthy breakfast will in fact help you lose weight.

How? I'm genuinely curious. I skip breakfast so wonder if I'm making a mistake.

In addition to the snacks issue, you're shutting down your metabolism for a very extended period.  If the last time you eat is around 8 or 9 at night, then you aren't eating again until noonish (or later for those type-a "Lunch puts me behind schedule!" folks) you're talking 16 hours where your body isn't stoking itself to burn fuel.    Then you also tend to gorge yourself at the few meals you DO have, because you know you won't be eating again for a while.

The idea is smaller meals more frequently, not infrequent large meals.

Sleep is also a good way of helping to lose weight.  Min. 8 hours a day, but I cheat on that quite a lot and only get 6.

[Abagadro]

Interesting. I don't eat breakfast and often go all the way to 3, 4 or even 5 o'clock before I eat a full meal. Must be why I have this huge boiler.

[Sky]

do you honestly think that the BMI average increase is completely unrelated to the increase in diabetes, heart disease and other ailments that are often linked to unhealthy lifestyles?

No. The important word being 'completely'. Obviously you can't lay in bed all day eating fats and sugars and expect to be healthy. I think it's highly over-rated and the real culprit is a complex mix of diet and exercise and especially genetics and environment. Stress, depression, healthcare, social standing, poverty level, stuff like that.

convincing politicians that the planet is suffering from global warming

Let's not go there. The question isn't 'is global warming real'? We're coming out of an ice age, what is occuring is inevitable. The question is the impact of man, and whether we should fuck with nature even further to 'fix' the 'problem'. Most of the global warming fear-mongering I've seen comes from a mindset that feels the earth should be a constant state, when it is anything but. The town I live in was buried under a mile of ice at one point, and before that was at the bottom of the sea. Hey, don't buy land in areas that could be submerged, buried by lava, or dried out like the Sahara has been (notice no global panic about the spread of the Sahara).

I do agree with the post after the one I quoted, for the most part :) The food industry is an odd one. We try to keep stuff like high fructose corn syrup completely out of our diet. My girlfriend's mother was a nurse specializing in nutrition (school nurse), so between her knowledge and my love of whole foods, we make a pretty good team. Balanced whole food meals most nights. But realistically, for a lot of people that's a luxury they can't afford.

On breakfast: I like breakfast and ideally I'd eat one every day. But I'm a night owl and barely get up in time for work, so my breakfast is a banana at the desk. Slice of pizza for lunch, then the aforementioned meal for dinner. Rarely snack, but I've gotten back into the habit of having popcorn while I read myself to sleep lately. Not having a sweet tooth does wonders, I only ate lots of snacks when I was unloading trucks for the cheap energy to burn. This is enough to maintain a trim shape with my old exercise routine, since my office moved downstairs (cutting out about 30-40 trips up and down 4 stories worth of stairs daily), I've developed a bit of a Beer Gut. Thinking of moving the office back upstairs :P

Back for a second to the topic of healthy fat people, one thing to consider about genetic body-typing is that going outside your natural body-type is very stressful on the system, which can also lead to illness (I'm very anti-stress, I think that's the root of so many health problems). And the absolute worse thing you can do is yo-yo, which most heavy people I know that try to diet and exercise into a new bodyshape tend to do.

[Nebu]

Let's see if I can help.  

1) Breakfast gets your metabolism going after 8h of time off.  That's one of the greatest benefits.  It also replenishes glucose levels after the fast caused during sleep.

2) Eating 6 small meals a day is better than eating 3 large meals, especially when combined with a regular exercise regiment.  Studies have shown that 6 small meals regulate blood glucose leves meaning fewer moments of high/low blood sugar.

3) Never eat within an hour or two of bedtime.

4) Starving yourself will alter normal metabolism.  If your body suspects you're in a phase of low calorie intake it will actually take steps to lower your BMR.  The more successful diets incorporate not only a balance in calorie types, but will also strive to only decrease caloric intake by a small percentage to avoid this from happening.  Most successful diets will produce a weight loss of 1-3 lbs per week for this reason.  

5) Muscle weighs more than fat.  It's far more important to have a healthy BMI than it is to weigh a certain amount.  Every year my doc tells me that I need to lose weight because at 6' and 203 lbs I'm off the chart.  When he realizes that I'm about 8% body fat, he usually corrects his statement.  There is no "correct" weight for a person, only a healthy BMI range.

[Nebu]

Back for a second to the topic of healthy fat people, one thing to consider about genetic body-typing is that going outside your natural body-type is very stressful on the system, which can also lead to illness (I'm very anti-stress, I think that's the root of so many health problems). And the absolute worse thing you can do is yo-yo, which most heavy people I know that try to diet and exercise into a new bodyshape tend to do.

I think we have a difference in definition going on here.  If you're BMI is high, you stand a greater risk of having many physiologic issues (high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, etc.).  Notice that I highlighted the word "risk".  It's certainly possible for people to live long and healthy lives while maintaining a high BMI, it just defies the odds.  An example would be any of the many smokers that live well into their 80's and beyond.  I'm still waiting for you to come out and state a clear position though.  Are you stating here that obesity is independant of the factors mentioned or are you just making a case that there are exceptions.  We all agree there are exceptions, so that's not really a case that requires strong backing.

Second, I don't think I've done anything to mock or belittle the obese in this or any thread.  If I have, I apologize. I don't think there's anything wrong with my wanting people to treat their bodies better.  It's not like I'm forcing anyone to do what I ask, I'm merely suggesting that a healthy lifestyle carries many documented benefits.  I think I have strong evidence to support that assertion. 

 

[Murgos]

My point in this, and I think Sky's is the same as your point 5 above.

You can be healthy and fit and be completely off the BMI chart.  The BMI chart though is what is being used to provide evidence for an obesity epidemic.  The BMI stuff really needs to be cross indexed with body fat % to give any kind of meaning full data and it's just not used that way.

[Nebu]

My point in this, and I think Sky's is the same as your point 5 above.

You can be healthy and fit and be completely off the BMI chart.  The BMI chart though is what is being used to provide evidence for an obesity epidemic.  The BMI stuff really needs to be cross indexed with body fat % to give any kind of meaning full data and it's just not used that way.

You're correct and I should have been more specific earlier.  Body fat % is a much more accurate indicator than BMI is.  The problem is that caliper tests are woefully inaccurate leaving immersion as the best method for measuring this.  I doubt many non-athletes have even had this test done.