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Author Topic: Vanguard Round 2 - Post Mortem  (Read 284427 times)
Falconeer
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Reply #245 on: April 04, 2007, 05:51:22 AM

Not that it's strictly related, but talking about flesh-eating viruses (virii?) Burning Crusade is down to 15 euros (9.99 punds) P&P included through all Europe thanks to play.com

Impressive, morbid. I.. must.. not... purchase....  (I didn't)

WindupAtheist
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Badicalthon


Reply #246 on: April 04, 2007, 07:47:25 AM

I'm sure Hartsman is a swell guy and that EQ2 is a much improved game in terms of mechanics, but in business terms the game is basically a failure.  I mean, let's just be real here.  It took Blizzard's boot deep up it's ass at launch, and now plugs away with somewhat more subscribers than billion year old UO, and somewhat fewer subscribers than nine-hundred million year old EQ1.

Nobody set out to make the game thinking "Oh boy, I bet we can tie with City of Heroes!"

I mean it wasn't a total AC2 "Jesus Christ just shut it down!" disaster, no, but it still supports my personal opinion that MMO "sequels" are just a Bad Idea.  They would have been better off if it were called something else entirely.

"You're just a dick who quotes himself in his sig."  --  Schild
"Yeah, it's pretty awesome."  --  Me
Kitsune
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Reply #247 on: April 04, 2007, 08:18:07 AM

EQ2 has potential and several nice features, but the expectations carried from EQ really shot it down.  EQ had a large and varied world with lots of interesting cultures to see.  EQ2 had... Good City and Evul City.  Coming from a game where I had a grand time exploring Neriak, getting thoroughly lost in Ak-anon, never once falling to my death from the wood elf trees, winding up in a place with just two generic cities bored me to tears almost instantly.  Sure, they were big generic cities, and if they'd been just replacements of the old Freeport and Qeynos, they'd've been fantastic.  But they were replacements for ALL of the cities, and couldn't begin to compete.  And that's EQ2 in a nutshell.
Miasma
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Reply #248 on: April 04, 2007, 08:26:47 AM

They only managed to sell 200,000?  If so I can't imagine what the active subscription number is.  His low churn statement is either delusional or he defines churn as someone leaving and then coming back.
Slayerik
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Reply #249 on: April 04, 2007, 09:31:43 AM

The other thing is....everyone remembers their first.

Many MMO player's have fond memories of UO and EQ no matter what flaws each of them had. Hell, just the UO treasure chest opening up and hearing 'stones' play and remembering my anticipation to log into UO. I never saw the flaws in the game because I enjoyed it for what it was...amazingly allowing me to interact in one of my favorite game environments and socialize, compete, and achieve like never before.

If the same game came out now I'd probably bash it. Well, probably not cause it owned but besides that you get the point :)

WoW is doing what UO did 10 years ago for me. For whatever reason, EQ2 did not. MMO noobs around the world are going to look back and remember their first experiences in this game and will, no matter what, fight and say it was the greatest game ever. Just like me and UO :) Turn wheel, turn. And spin out a fun fuckin game again.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2007, 09:33:16 AM by Slayerik »

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
shiznitz
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Reply #250 on: April 04, 2007, 09:58:28 AM

UO was fun for me because I could play with my brothers (them LA, me NY) but it wasn't until EQ that I got into the whole MMOG culture of making friends with people I only knew through a game.

I have never played WoW.
Ixxit
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Reply #251 on: April 04, 2007, 10:10:50 AM

The other thing is....everyone remembers their first.

Many MMO player's have fond memories of UO and EQ no matter what flaws each of them had. Hell, just the UO treasure chest opening up and hearing 'stones' play and remembering my anticipation to log into UO. I never saw the flaws in the game because I enjoyed it for what it was...amazingly allowing me to interact in one of my favorite game environments and socialize, compete, and achieve like never before.

Heh, gotta love the UO treasure chest.  Day one memories of UO included lag so bad it took forever to cross one screens worth of landscape, getting killed by a bird , getting pickpocked  for a cool pair of boots, getting killed by a deer.

I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate.
Slayerik
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Reply #252 on: April 04, 2007, 10:13:32 AM

The other thing is....everyone remembers their first.

Many MMO player's have fond memories of UO and EQ no matter what flaws each of them had. Hell, just the UO treasure chest opening up and hearing 'stones' play and remembering my anticipation to log into UO. I never saw the flaws in the game because I enjoyed it for what it was...amazingly allowing me to interact in one of my favorite game environments and socialize, compete, and achieve like never before.

Heh, gotta love the UO treasure chest.  Day one memories of UO included lag so bad it took forever to cross one screens worth of landscape, getting killed by a bird , getting pickpocked  for a cool pair of boots, getting killed by a deer.

No hand holding kicks ass.

"Hey, here's a rusty dagger...think you can kill that wolf? Give it a shot!!!". Whoa cool, I gained a strength point and .2 in fencing!!! Sure, Im a ghost now...but....

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
Nebu
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Reply #253 on: April 04, 2007, 10:24:14 AM

No hand holding kicks ass.

"Hey, here's a rusty dagger...think you can kill that wolf? Give it a shot!!!". Whoa cool, I gained a strength point and .2 in fencing!!! Sure, Im a ghost now...but....

I agree, but those days are long gone.  Now we have mobs with big "GET A QUEST HERE" signs, linear play, and Drive-Thru leveling.  MMORPG's are no longer RPG's, hence the new MMOG title change.  They lost my love when the genre decided that "challenging gameplay" = grinding LOTS of mobs and running LOTS of FedEx quests.  I want the challenge to be in the risk/reward not in the number of hours I'm expected to give up. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
WindupAtheist
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Reply #254 on: April 04, 2007, 10:45:38 AM

They only managed to sell 200,000?  If so I can't imagine what the active subscription number is.  His low churn statement is either delusional or he defines churn as someone leaving and then coming back.

Linked thread in summary:

Most rational post--
Quote from: hanzo
I can not feel sorry for a software designer/businessman who is paid well and makes poor decisions. He clearly did not understand how to contain his 'Vision' to the budget he was provided and now Sigil is paying the price.

Welcome to the reality of a free market society.

Biggest douche--
Quote from: Ara Brightheart
Brad,

Thank you for creating a world many of us have been looking for a very long time. We of The Sundered Guard have found a new home in Telon and cant wait to see what the future brings. Please keep listening to your players, and this game will go down in gaming history as a cornerstone in the industry. We understand that greatness takes time and in the end we will all reap the rewards of our wait.

David ‘Ara’ Greene
Warcry.com
Elder of The Sundered Guard

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Sky
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Reply #255 on: April 04, 2007, 02:05:17 PM

WoW was a fun ride and LotRO reminds me a LOT of WoW (A LOT), which could be good and bad. For me personally, I'll stick to EQ2 and maybe check out Vanguard in a year or so.
Margalis
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Reply #256 on: April 04, 2007, 04:13:19 PM

Hartsman seems to validating my theory that most MMOs enter retention mode in a matter of weeks.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Azazel
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Reply #257 on: April 04, 2007, 08:42:14 PM

Not that it's strictly related, but talking about flesh-eating viruses (virii?) Burning Crusade is down to 15 euros (9.99 punds) P&P included through all Europe thanks to play.com

Impressive, morbid. I.. must.. not... purchase....  (I didn't)

Just buy it, play it, love it, get bored of it, unsub.

If you have fun for a month or two, your purchase was worthwhile and you've had a month or three of fun.

Where's the loss?




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Falconeer
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Reply #258 on: April 05, 2007, 02:41:04 AM

No Az, I already played it for a good forty levels. I know what to expect from the game and I am not intersted in it anymore, at all.
I was just pointing out how easy is to get into WoW:

1) It's the most accessible and easy to learn
2) It works (well) on 6 years old computers.
3) Everyone talks about it. It's almost socially accepted to play WoW. You are part of something big!
4) Lots of merchandise everywhere (I just stumbled upon the comic this morning) push it even more. The card game is nice too, btw.
5) You can get it everywhere, stores, magazines... wonder how long it will take to have it in McDonald for free with every Happy Meal
6) And finally it's cheap... Burning Crusade for 15 euros 2 months after launch is the deal of the year.

I don't know if this is the viral marketing Brad keeps yapping about, but it's definitely viral. It's fucking Stephen King's The Stand.
I am not tempted to play WoW, but the point is that it's hard not to be compelled to at least try (or even re-try with Burning Crusade, especially at 15€).

Morat20
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Reply #259 on: April 05, 2007, 10:17:38 AM

No Az, I already played it for a good forty levels. I know what to expect from the game and I am not intersted in it anymore, at all.
I was just pointing out how easy is to get into WoW:

1) It's the most accessible and easy to learn
2) It works (well) on 6 years old computers.
3) Everyone talks about it. It's almost socially accepted to play WoW. You are part of something big!
4) Lots of merchandise everywhere (I just stumbled upon the comic this morning) push it even more. The card game is nice too, btw.
5) You can get it everywhere, stores, magazines... wonder how long it will take to have it in McDonald for free with every Happy Meal
6) And finally it's cheap... Burning Crusade for 15 euros 2 months after launch is the deal of the year.

I don't know if this is the viral marketing Brad keeps yapping about, but it's definitely viral. It's fucking Stephen King's The Stand.
I am not tempted to play WoW, but the point is that it's hard not to be compelled to at least try (or even re-try with Burning Crusade, especially at 15€).

If you were to get it -- I suggest trying out the new races and their starting areas. It's quickly obvious how much Blizzard has learned. The new starting areas are really slick. I've found outland fun, but I'm in crunch time at work and school, so if I play at all it's to nose around with my level 20 Shaman and not my level 61 Hunter. The bombadier missions in Outland are a blast, though. :)
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Reply #260 on: April 05, 2007, 11:38:32 AM

Quote
The bombadier missions in Outland are a blast, though.

Definitely! I was thrilled to get to Nagrand and find that I can bomb PvE AND PvP targets sometimes. Too much fun. Too bad most of the rewards for Halaa suck, but at least they are easy to get...

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Falconeer
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Reply #261 on: April 05, 2007, 12:51:36 PM

The fun part is that the only thing I know about BC is that there is this ultra-fun Bombardier Quest, as a friend of mine emphatically told me about it a hundred of times.
Now THAT is viral marketing (or viral whatever), not everyone with an internet connection from Greenwich to the dark corner s of earth spreading the news that your game has more bugs than pixels and less content than 1985's Gauntlet.

Sky
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Reply #262 on: April 05, 2007, 01:35:50 PM

My most memorable quest was from WoW, and I'm not a -huge- fan of the game, though I think it's ok.

The one where you slide a book under the door of an outhouse in the middle of nowhere. That was some funny stuff, I like creativity.
Phred
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Reply #263 on: April 09, 2007, 02:59:43 AM

My most memorable quest was from WoW, and I'm not a -huge- fan of the game, though I think it's ok.

The one where you slide a book under the door of an outhouse in the middle of nowhere. That was some funny stuff, I like creativity.

The 8 pieces of silk were funny too. Talk about a fussy wiper.
shiznitz
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Reply #264 on: April 11, 2007, 11:11:54 AM

Back to VG, the latest patch has a bunch of itemization changes and some class tweaks but no major bug fixes - at least nothing acknowledged in the patch notes. The various group bugs are still there, for example. DRU, PSI, NEC DoTs got a damage boost!

Mr crafter in my guild - the guy who did the boats and some houses - is giving up. The crafting grind burned him out and he cannot find exp groups reliably.

I have now experienced several quest bugs where killing the target mob is not recognized or only recognized the first few times and then stops updating. Deleting and starting over does not fix it.

When I get a group that wants to do 4-dot dungeons, I have a great time but that isn't a relaible occurrence and usually takes 30 minutes of cajoling people in /tells. Still hate the fact that one cannot buy spells ahead of time and carry them. Running back to the nearest trainer (longer and longer run as I level) is fucking stupid. Even worse, some places with trainers don't have all the trainers. What the hell is the point of that? Renton Keep - a major hub for levels 16-25 - only has 3 class trainers.

Elevators are still buggy as shit and if you die on one, your tombstone is invisible. You have to wait for the elevator to stop at a terminus point and /corpse from off the elevator to get it. For those that don't know, the only way to get from the top of New Targonor on Thestra to the docks is via an elevator.

Lastly, after 15 minutes of tweaking various settings I have gotten the game to look quite good and be playable (25 fps in a full group in a dungeon with other players passing by occasionally) on my system (3.4 P4, 2GB ram, 7950 vid card). Of course, any time I disconnect the game resets to default settings (Balanced for my machine) and I have to redo the tweaks all over again. I need to save a dummy .ini somewhere.

I have never played WoW.
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Reply #265 on: April 11, 2007, 05:39:26 PM

Lastly, after 15 minutes of tweaking various settings I have gotten the game to look quite good and be playable (25 fps in a full group in a dungeon with other players passing by occasionally) on my system (3.4 P4, 2GB ram, 7950 vid card). Of course, any time I disconnect the game resets to default settings (Balanced for my machine) and I have to redo the tweaks all over again. I need to save a dummy .ini somewhere.
Which tells us this lesson: an unfinished game is still unfinished even three months later ;)

-HRose / Abalieno
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Reply #266 on: April 12, 2007, 01:03:50 AM

Yesterday I was browsing through the content of the special collector edition (kindly provided by Cheddar  Heart ) and spent a good hour on the Art Book, filled with Parkinson's great arts. It make me want to come back playing immediately, seriously. I can see where the game *could have gone*.. but it didn't.
Not only the world Parkinson envisioned was beatuful and inspired, but the mobs, the monsters and the NPC were beatiful. This is the kind of world that, I think, a Korean game developer could have done justice to (strictly aesthetically speaking).

Sadly, we all know where Sigil fell short so far. Details, lack of "life" in it (whereas EverQuest 2 for example was full of it, with wandering NPCs, animals, voices and such) and.. this is painful, HORRIBLE models for mobs. Even the basic "Giant Spider" looks great on the art book while 1999-ish in game. Again, painful.
So, for a moment I felt like I so wanted to play that game again... and then memories of the embarassing red giant ants came to my mind in a rush, and I almost vomited.

One last random note: there's a full picture of the whole (I guess) Vanguard staff on the last page. There are these roughly 95 (I counted them) guys and gals on a river bank smiling to the camera. But uh, hey.. I think I spotted 90 caucasians, and just a couple of black guys. Whassup with the videogame industry? Not to mention that I can't recall a single game (massive or not) with a female lead designer. Not that this stuff matters or is on topic, but it got me thinking.

Engels
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Reply #267 on: April 12, 2007, 09:25:25 AM

Well, I think it does have consequences when you culturally homogenize a creative team too much. From the smithing dwarf task master in Southwatch stating "If it ain't dwarven, its crap!" repeatedly to the swedish accent on many of the african/arab races in Qalia, one starts to see that if you have too much upper middle class waspiness, your world gets a wee bit small.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

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Reply #268 on: April 12, 2007, 09:28:58 AM

That is how the industry has been. :-(

There have only been a few 'named' female devs (named devs are like boss encounters!) and some of them took a... more traditional route... getting started in games.  I cannot imagine things being easy afterwards though as I have seen countless stories about most places being very much a man's world.  I don't know much about other minorities in the industry, since it is much easier to determine sex from a name in an article or credits than background.  I can make assumptions I fear would be fairly accurate, although it would be nice if someone was able to prove those thoughts false.

Hopefully the newer crops of devs are better balanced.  I don't follow the industry closely enough to know for quite some time afterwards, unfortunately.

Hahahaha!  I'm really good at this!
LK
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Reply #269 on: April 12, 2007, 09:45:00 AM

Not to mention that I can't recall a single game (massive or not) with a female lead designer. Not that this stuff matters or is on topic, but it got me thinking.


http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,1374/

There ya go.  But I'm not sure I can think of any female Lead Designers on a triple-A, major title.

"Then there's the double-barreled shotgun from Doom 2 - no-one within your entire household could be of any doubt that it's been fired because it sounds like God slamming a door on his fingers." - Yahtzee Croshaw
trias_e
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Reply #270 on: April 12, 2007, 11:15:52 AM

How many high school girls want to make video games for their career?

And then take into account that only one in a (huge number) that wants to be a game designer actually becomes a game designer.
Signe
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Reply #271 on: April 12, 2007, 01:08:36 PM

When I was a kid, I wanted to be a cowboy.  I still kind of do. 

My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Sky
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Reply #272 on: April 12, 2007, 01:47:54 PM

...you meant cowgirl, right?

...no WINGER LINKS.

...
Murgos
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Reply #273 on: April 12, 2007, 02:25:11 PM

I don't know about other colleges but my engineering class was mostly white and male.  Next was Asian and male.  There were only a few females (except Industrial Engineering for some reason) and even fewer blacks of either sex.

The only requirements to enter the department were an automated check of your grades and previous classes.  Sometimes it's just the way it is.

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Reply #274 on: April 12, 2007, 02:28:01 PM

I have only read part of the first page.  My shanty in Oblivion outside the Imperial City looks better than that house.  It should at least look as good as a house in Horizons.

Did they announce server consolidations yet?

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Reply #275 on: April 12, 2007, 03:50:48 PM

Not to mention that I can't recall a single game (massive or not) with a female lead designer. Not that this stuff matters or is on topic, but it got me thinking.
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,1374/

There ya go.  But I'm not sure I can think of any female Lead Designers on a triple-A, major title.

http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,60/
Falconeer
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Reply #276 on: April 12, 2007, 03:59:40 PM

Right Roberta Williams for sure (how could I forget her?)! And then I recalled one of my former goddesses: Rieko Kodama, the Lady behind Phantasy Star.

Quote
Q: What sections of Phantasy Star were you responsible for?
Rieko Kodama: For Phantasy Star I was the main designer. I drew all the character designs, the 2D maps (not the 3D dungeon areas), the battle-scene backgrounds, the townspeople, and so on.

Oh, thank you so much, Rieko-sama!
« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 04:01:59 PM by Falconeer »

Kitsune
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Reply #277 on: April 12, 2007, 10:30:12 PM

Conjuring the Williams name just makes me weep inside at how far Sierra has fallen.
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Reply #278 on: April 13, 2007, 12:19:04 AM

Although I love adventure games, I think people like Williams aren't around because they were never really game designers at all. At least not of the type that the game industry was evolving towards. Their skills were along the lines of puzzle making, illustration, and storywriting. Very few of them had any idea about the nitty grittys of game development. All of them were just using premade engines or stuff like HyperCard. And once adventure games dwindled down, these people were left in the dust.

I still think they could make good games though, even if they had a somewhat superficial approach to the technicalities. But it's sad that designers with an overall vision like a Roberta Williams or Tim Schafer can't be hired or funded, begged even, on just their creative skills alone. They could still be better game designers than most.


As for female designers, lets not forget her:

schild
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Reply #279 on: April 13, 2007, 01:54:01 AM

Did I mention that CGW gave Vanguard a 3/10?

Just thought I'd mention it.

3/10

Lock if old.

I kid, I kid.

3 out of 10.

Edit: Stray. She's a producer. Watch Grandma's Boy if you need more information. Some games they make design decisions. Others, not so much. Given the studio behind Assassin's Creed, I highly doubt she does as much. That said, it's not to slight her, but rather that the studio is made up of piles and piles of awesome.
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