Vanguard Round 2 - Post Mortem

[Nebu]

I love the fact that it took me literally 3 hours of playing Vanguard to come to the same conclusions. Experience pays off, I guess. Don't look at all your VG time spent as wasted. You've learned some valuable criticism skills, and the next time you approach a burning paper bag on your porch you'll at least have a strategy.

You're going to break your arm patting yourself on the back.  

I saw many flaws in VG as well, but I still spent about 3 weeks taking a look at a larger amount of content.  I could see the shortcomings of the game immediately, but sometimes a study can give you more detailed insight into things.  I can see what Brad was "trying" to do more clearly after the time spent.  He just hasn't quite figured out the implementation end of game making.  I never enjoyed the game for the reasons that they intended people to enjoy it, yet still managed to appreciate aspects of it.  If that even makes any sense.

[Nebu]

Honestly, I had great fun for 3 weeks. Seriously.

I saw many flaws in VG as well, but I still spent about 3 weeks taking a look at a larger amount of content.

Eerie.

[Nija]

L-C and I were telling you it was a shitbird as well, Nebu.

What amazing discoveries did you find beyond the 3 hour point? I don't need to see the end game in VG to know that it's a diseased vagina.

[shiznitz]

[I saw many flaws in VG as well, but I still spent about 3 weeks taking a look at a larger amount of content.  I could see the shortcomings of the game immediately, but sometimes a study can give you more detailed insight into things.  I can see what Brad was "trying" to do more clearly after the time spent.  He just hasn't quite figured out the implementation end of game making.  I never enjoyed the game for the reasons that they intended people to enjoy it, yet still managed to appreciate aspects of it.  If that even makes any sense.

That is a good way to describe it. I still have a desire to log in and check things out, but when I think about what I would do in the game the desire fades.  I still cannot say for sure that my short fascination with the game came from the game or just playing a caster for the first time ever in an MMOG.

[Falconeer]

Now that the file is archived, let's all make peace and found a Bat Country Motor Club in Test Drive Unlimited. It's already out in Europe and apparently will be out in North America in about 4 days.
Oh, you'll need a steering wheel to fully enjoy it, but it's cheaper than the computer Brad wants you to buy.

[Nebu]

L-C and I were telling you it was a shitbird as well, Nebu.

What amazing discoveries did you find beyond the 3 hour point? I don't need to see the end game in VG to know that it's a diseased vagina.

I know.  I'm a failure at life because I wanted to see for myself.  The only way I was ever going to get an objective view of the game was to pay my $50 and play.  Not to disappoint you, but I got my $50 out of it.  

Vanguard was an interesting experience and I would have never known had I not given it an open-minded look.  It started out as a mindless mmog and turned into an academic study of sorts.  I've been around computer gaming since there was a gaming industry to be around (at least a commercialized one).  I enjoy seeing the developments over time and as an ex-developer of MUDs, I enjoy taking an academic approach to each new mmog that comes out.  I don't expect you to understand nor appreciate that.  Had I been in the beta, I could have done the same for free.  I don't feel that my time was wasted.  How you feel is entirely up to you.  You can save your "I told you so's", though.

[Margalis]

Draw distance is probably an issue.

If you have a seamless world and a very large draw distance it does limit texture variety. But even then you should be able to use low-res textures or even flat-shaded polys for stuff far away.

A seamless world probably means that the borders between areas can't very lush as you need two sets of graphics side by side. But in the middle of an area that isn't true. There is no reason you can't have a huge desert followed by a jungle followed by a swamp. It is only an issue when you can see both areas at once.

Vanguard is apparently a large world but there is nothing to do in it and it doesn't look interesting.
---

Anyway I predicted this years ago. Brad is simply not that competent. It isn't any surprise at all that VG sucked. Some people have real talent and some people get lucky once. Brad obviously was the latter.

[Venkman]

No one should ever be blamed for trying a game nobody else liked, as long as that person doesn't continually try and convert people to their thinking before they themselves have had time to digest, and from a comparable level of experience.

My wife loved the Happy Cat shot :)

[Signe]

No one should ever be blamed for trying a game nobody else liked, as long as that person doesn't continually try and convert people to their thinking before they themselves have had time to digest, and from a comparable level of experience.

My wife loved the Happy Cat shot :)

I agree.  I have tried all sorts of goofy stuff.  Some of it free, some of it I paid for.  Sure, most of it is crap but some things kept me amused for a while.  I don't consider that to be a waste of money.  Look at Horizons.  I played that nightmare for several months even after being in the beta.  That's probably why I didn't buy Vanguard's promises of a better game at release.  I don't seriously mock anyone for enjoying things I don't enjoy, either.  I mean, look at all the people here who play poker.  I bet there's some who like to fish, too.  Not all of them are even dumbasses!

(I don't know what a Happy Cat shot is.   )

[ajax34i]

(I don't know what a Happy Cat shot is.   )

Previous page, the screenshot with the cat...

[Nija]

I have two happy cat shirts.

[Signe]

(I don't know what a Happy Cat shot is.   )

Previous page, the screenshot with the cat...

Thanks!     I have a cruddy memory.

[Strazos]

Aww, good on you Falc.

Though you could have saved yourself a lot of time just by saying: 

[Hound]

hey the game might not be worth a shit but the forums are priceless

http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/27044-why-all-nerd-rage-against-vanguard-131.html#post691941

Read some of the posts by Utnayan, seems a bit  a lot on the tinfoil hat paranoid side to me but wtf it's entertainment

By the way Falconeer my software shelf is lined with 50 dollar turds so never feel like you're the only one, Like Signe I even gave Horizons  3 months to strighten out,  just knowing it would turn out to be a good game given enough time.

[Strazos]

While looking for an old Nero disc I happened across my DX2 box, with the CDs still inside. They are pristine.

I don't know what to do with them. I thought I had trashed them years ago out of spite.

[Trippy]

WoW is seamless as well (for the non-instanced parts). They just took the time and had the art talent to make each area look different and they put in transitions from one "style" to the next so you don't get that abrupt scenery change like you do in some games with separate zones. In other words there's nothing about "seamlessness" that says you have to make everything look the same.

Uhm yeah, but I used the term "soft" as I don't think (but I am not sure) you can look across the soft zone borders in WoW. Can you?

Of course you can but the draw distances aren't like what they are in Vanguard.

[Rithrin]

I think you can even see NPCs and PCs further in WoW than VG... you could see the mountain 10km away, but not the bandits 100m away.

[Venkman]

WoW is funny about when it draws spawn. Mount speed, connection quality, and video settings also affect this. I've sometimes been attacked by stuff who's shadows I haven't even seen put into the graphics yet (generally the first telltale sign of a spawn, when people start spamming the TAB key :) ).

VG didn't seem much different. That it could draw stuff further away, wonderful. That you could go there, same as WoW (unless you were in an outdoor instance where the distance was just a backdrop). It's of third order of importance after the quality of game play and the dynamics of the interactive content, and certainly not something to be used as an excuse to drive up minimum spec or justify lower sales.

[Gutboy Barrelhouse]

Looks like a Dev is getting into trouble based on private messages to a player and what that player has done with that information.   On the FOH boards:
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

 Why all the nerd rage against Vanguard? F I R E S    O F    H E A V E N
Today, 02:40 PM - by Nino 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utnayan 
Grand Standing.


Since I wrote that snippet, allow me to respond.

That partial list, does not show, "What's missing from Vanguard". I was asked privately to identify where a higher level player, could adventure so I rattled off, as best I could, the areas that were currently AVAILABLE, or COMING in the near future. That message was written on Feb 25, one month from today.

I will update the list, which is not by any means comprehensive:

Thestra
Vol Tuniel - Open at Launch
Thelaseen - Lair of the Drake Riders - Open at Launch
Dargun's Tomb - Open at Launch
Old Targonor - needs tweaks - Open at Launch, tweaks completed on 2/27
Greystone - soon - Open as of mid March - and yes it is GREYSTONE with an 'E'
Beranid Downs - in progress, soon - The final parts get completed by this Friday and pushed the following week
Southwatch - in testing now, coming next week - Open since early March
Gorgoluk - huge Sebilis style dungeon in the deadland swamps; next on schedule for the team finishing SouthwatchWrapping up now, will be completed by this Friday and pushed the following week
Ancient Port Warehouse - Art is almost complete and getting patched in next Wed; content is a few weeks away.This MAY get postponed. It is level 50+; maybe mid April
Basically the terrain and content on western thestra is getting a huge facelift - Done and in since early March

Qalia
Xennumet - top left corner of Qalia is almost done; massive underwater and dungeon realm. - Done and in since mid March
Citadel of the Vanquished - in progress along with the arena that ties content in from all over the world; due in a week or so. - The arena has been in since early March, the Citadel is complete and opens next week
Petra - in progress; stone spires and caves on western qalia, inland a bit, goes live next wed. - Open since early March
Ruined Mordebi Empire - the huge egyptian section on western qalia is next for the team finishing Petra; should be a few weeks though, but has one of the coolest dungeons we have in the Nusibe Necropolis.Open since mid March
City of Brass - I ran through this place on Friday and it should be going live in the next week or so. EQ style outdoor adventure area with Djinn, and Sand Giants; there is also an alternate universe section but not sure if this is opening at the same time.This is called Rahz Inkur, and has been open since early March; the 'alternate' part has been locked.


Again, this was to answer the question, "Where can I go post lvl 35?" There have been, and there are now, plenty of areas, with even more coming. I am sorry that not everything on this list is complete. However, there is nothing stopping anyone from playing the game and having many different places to go.

Now, threatening to post someone's private message is pathetic enough, but promising not to do so, lie about it, and then do it anyway paints a sad picture. The person I sent that to plays the game and has been active in identifying issues and letting me know. So, I let him know in confidence what was 'likely' coming down the pipe and when. It certainly wasn't meant for public viewing and was not intended to outline a schedule that we were absolutely going to adhere to.

And yes, mid April. It has been said on numerous occasions by numerous people that we launched early. This isn't some amazing new revelation. There is no secret agenda.

What should really trouble some people, is the fact that I have done more than anyone to try and be as upfront as possible. I've 'fought the system' to the point where I've had my job threatened on more than one occasion. But that is hardly the point right? It isn't about formulating change, it is ONLY about defaming, insulting, and grandstanding. This becomes more and more transparent.

I know people would love to emulate Furor, but they all lack the most BASIC element of what made his 'rants' pertinent. Furor PLAYED the game and sought improvement. His goal, in the end, was to make the game better, the company stronger, and by proxy advance the genre. Today's pathetic proteges exist only to tear down, admonish, and insult. That is not the legacy of this board. Today's dissenters are a shallow reflection of what this board used to be.

I've been strongly encouraged to stop posting here and will likely get lectured or have disciplinary action taken against me on Monday for this. Does this mean you win? Congratulations.
__________________
Nino McHammer
Fires of Heaven
Veeshan 
 

[Trippy]

Oops.

[pants]

Its pretty sad that Nino is going to get his arse kicked over being open with the public - his commentary on VG from the inside has been very interesting, the fact that someone chose to betray his trust is unfortunately pretty standard practice.  I guess it means even less Dev-public communication, and more 'community managers'

[Mandrel]

I wonder if this situation would have happened if they had official forums.

[Azazel]

So essentially, only Brad is allowed to walk around chewing his foot?   

[Simond]

About par for the course for Sigil/Verant - threaten the person generating half-decent PR but let Brad keep posting his rambling, borderline delusional passive-aggressive novellas.

Maybe Nino should ask his guildmate if there's any jobs going in Irvine.

[WindupAtheist]

That thread was epic.  I'm sad it's over.  I think I'll go bump our current SWG thread.

[slog]

Developers should never be allowed to talk to players like that.  It always ends poorly.

[Simond]

Developers should never be allowed to talk to players like that.  It always ends poorly.

AKA "This is why we can't have nice things" :D

[Tisirin]

I hate to be critical, but the whole Vanguard communications effort thus far has seemed to be something of a train wreck.  Where is their Community Relations person? 

The Executive Producer using a guild forum as a primary communication outlet?  A developer who also belongs to that guild giving out game-specific information in private messages?

The whole thing seems rather "old school".  And by "old school" I mean "bad".  This type of stuff needs to be reigned in and they need to let their CM do his/her job.

[Engels]

Some of us thought it was cool that Sigil was given so much independence when they moved from MS to Sony. Boy have I done a 180 on that.

[Simond]

I believe that Smedley is sitting quietly in a corner, feeding Brad more and more rope while keeping SOE officially uninvolved except for publisher/server host.

Who knows - maybe the current EQ2 Live Team could turn VG around as well?

[Ixxit]

Originally Posted by Utnayan 
Grand Standing.

Grandstanding indeed.  I think grandstanding pretty much sums up the whole 'mmo community thing' perfectly.  Everyone wants to be 'LtM'. Everyone wants to have some dev somewhere reply to one of their posts.  Everyone wants to stand up on their soapbox and scream at the top of their lungs. 

The whole "Why all the nerd rage against Vanguard? " thread is pure entertainment, yet like a million other threads  throughout the mmoverse, it serves no  purpose.  The number of people that actually post in these threads is so statistically  miniscule when you compare to the number of people that play, why  attune your ear to this drivel and give it credence by having your comments linked to various other sites like this one?    It always amazes me why devs would care to get down in the muck there and reply to these sad, basement dwelling individuals with ulimitied time on their hands, yet Brad and gang have been quite willing to continually be slapped around by them  looking absolutely foolish.

According to Brad, Sigil didn't have control over the release of their game,  and it seems they don't have any control over the message  they are sending to current and potential subscribers.

It is bad enough that Brad keeps flip flopping on design which contributes to this, but there is so much misinformation out there in the community  (like the 40 gig install size) that potential subscribers have no idea what kind of game to expect and current and former subscribers have no clear idea where the game is going. 

Official, heavily moderated forums would be a start. Aw hell, just shitcan the whole thing.

[ajax34i]

It always amazes me why devs would care to get down in the muck there and reply to these sad, basement dwelling individuals with ulimitied time on their hands, yet Brad and gang have been quite willing to continually be slapped around by them  looking absolutely foolish.

He's doing it because appearances must be upheld.  If he gives the slightest impression of giving up, funding will stop.  If he admits that he's not a genius, the best of the best, he'll never get another cent of funding, for any possible future projects.  The more everyone says that VG sucks, the more he has to boast and claim otherwise, and the more he has to lay the blame on someone else.

All the verbiage isn't for our, or his game's fans', benefit, it's for his own personal future.

[Calandryll]

Official boards certainly help, but I don't think they are the root cause for the communication errors going on here. Not having official boards is making it worse though.

If you're not going to have official boards, then you need a very, very strong communication strategy. Something that takes into account the fact that your employees are on multiple forums for which you have little to no control over. And to have that strategy, you need a very strong Community Representative. Mythic always did just fine without official boards - but that's because Sanya runs a tight ship. Their entire communication strategy supported the lack of official boards and it was obvious that her developers bought into what she was trying to do.

When you don't have that, what you get is what we see here. A very ad hoc, reactive environment where mistakes are made that simply shouldn't be happening. It's a commonly known fact in Community Relations that you never send private messages to a player if that information contains stuff you don't want to be public. In fact, you should avoid PMs with players as much as possible. You also can't send a list of upcoming work and not expect it to be taken as a schedule.

It's not like any of this is new and it's disappointing to see it happen.

[Ixxit]

He's doing it because appearances must be upheld.  If he gives the slightest impression of giving up, funding will stop.  If he admits that he's not a genius, the best of the best, he'll never get another cent of funding, for any possible future projects.  The more everyone says that VG sucks, the more he has to boast and claim otherwise, and the more he has to lay the blame on someone else.

All the verbiage isn't for our, or his game's fans', benefit, it's for his own personal future.

Weird.  I had no idea that tongue wrestling with geeks on a board not even affiliated with the game was a requirement to keep one's job.  Does the 'Fires of Heaven' guild have that much sway on the mmo community?  Do these losers really have that much power that the money is keeping track of what is said and who replies(scary if true)?  I've been playing mmo's for years and have only heard the FOH name in passing.

Christ,  I mean one guy's forum handle is 'FuckYou '.

[Hutch]

He's doing it because appearances must be upheld.  If he gives the slightest impression of giving up, funding will stop.  If he admits that he's not a genius, the best of the best, he'll never get another cent of funding, for any possible future projects.  The more everyone says that VG sucks, the more he has to boast and claim otherwise, and the more he has to lay the blame on someone else.

All the verbiage isn't for our, or his game's fans', benefit, it's for his own personal future.

Weird.  I had no idea that tongue wrestling with geeks on a board not even affiliated with the game was a requirement to keep one's job.  Does the 'Fires of Heaven' guild have that much sway on the mmo community?  Do these losers really have that much power that the money is keeping track of what is said and who replies(scary if true)?  I've been playing mmo's for years and have only heard the FOH name in passing.

Christ,  I mean one guy's forum handle is 'FuckYou '.

A good point, if FOH was the only board where Brad was pulling these spin stunts.
But he did it on the official Vanguard SOH forums, when they still existed.
He also did it in various interviews that I've read.
Can't say if he's spewed on any other forums, but the trend is clear.

Not that I think it will make any difference anyway. We've now seen what happens when Brad is left to head up an MMOG development effort without any adult supervision. The VCdiots for his next game will have to have been paying exactly zero attention to the train wreck that is the past 12 months of Vanguard development and release.