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Author Topic: Random PvP ideas  (Read 33732 times)
Sheepherder
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Reply #140 on: June 29, 2011, 05:12:05 PM

Full player looting, stat loss, slow skill gain, the ability to mail stolen shit to a mule character without getting a reputation/karma/notoriety hit on the mule, and equipment scarcity compete for being the most retarded ideas ever conceived in a pvp game.
sinij
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Reply #141 on: June 29, 2011, 10:51:53 PM

It could be arranged like a RTS build order or tech tree: As a guild "levels up" they gain access to more and more types of buildings and upgrades, but those buildings and upgrades can never be built until their pre-requisites are constructed in the current outpost. The long, hard "leveling" work is done defending outposts built of the basic structures your guild already has... but outposts themselves are roughly as quick to construct as they are to destroy.

Not a bad idea.

My take on build vs destroy is that it generally takes too little effort to destroy. If you had to wheel (or build) catapults every time you want to bust something up you'd see efforts much more balanced. Downside is that it will discourage PvP, but I am strong believer of "safe base" player towns. There are better avenues for PvP, such as resource control, that player city destruction. I also think burn-it-down should be last resort, taxing it, looting and pillaging it... all of that should come before complete destruction. Give player avenues to make a point other that to completely burn somebody down.

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #142 on: June 30, 2011, 11:50:37 AM

Focus fire seems to be a product of tab targetting. EVE seems really bad where all enemies appear on a list, and the other side targets alphabetically... other games where "tab" picks out the closest enemy are also pretty bad. Maybe "tab" should pick out an enemy player randomly in these games (picking out mobs could remain logical)?

Also as an aside, focus nuking is not a problem in Darkfall where there is manual aim. It has an important part in PvP, but it's difficult to be lethally accurate (target caller over voice com uses descriptions like "aim for ork by tree" or tracer spells to guide focus fire), and is used more for disruptive purposes (formation dispersal, disorientation, initiative) before more decisive phases of battle are joined.
sinij
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Reply #143 on: June 30, 2011, 05:22:02 PM

Focus fire seems to be a product of tab targetting.

Darkfall, where you have to aim your abilities FPS style, does not seem to have focus fire as a problem. At the same time Darkfall doesn't have good group combat. I personally prefer tab, simply because it allows you to focus on What To Do. Playing DF certainly made me appreciate 'tab' targeting system a lot, and I am veteran FPS person, so aiming isn't an issue.

Quote
Maybe "tab" should pick out an enemy player randomly in these games

Intentionally breaking system is never a good idea, you will frustrate players and they will still find workarounds. I still stand by "short immunity" and/or damage saturation solutions. Focus fire is only the problem when target doesn't get a chance to respond.

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
pxib
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Reply #144 on: June 30, 2011, 05:45:22 PM

There are better avenues for PvP, such as resource control, that player city destruction. I also think burn-it-down should be last resort, taxing it, looting and pillaging it... all of that should come before complete destruction. Give player avenues to make a point other that to completely burn somebody down.
Being taxed, looted, and pillaged isn't more fun than being destroyed. It's less fun because it doesn't have a defined end. It's the point where the enemy team is farming you for honor kills by sitting outside the graveyard where you respawn rather than capturing the last flag. You have become a resource rather than a player.

Making outposts easy to construct but challenging to level up, and allowing those levels to persist after death, keeps the goals small and keeps the Achievers happy. If the enemy gets too powerful and focused you can change venues, or you can call it a night and go home with minimal risk.
Malakili
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Reply #145 on: June 30, 2011, 10:05:50 PM

Here are direct examples for you:

1. Meatshield/Protector - your job is to absorb damage and get in the way of others trying to kill your teammates
2. Dedicated Buffer - your job is to buff everyone, with you around everyone gets significant boost... you actually don't have to do anything to be useful, but you can be.
3. Suicide Bomber - your job is to run into enemy group and use your massive AoE Nuke, likely dying in process
4. Scout - your job is to run around and find where bad guys are, once you located them you call for backup.

This is not to say that 1-4 roles should be designed with low player skill in mind, but there are roles that do not require you to be good to be successful.


Let me rephrase that for you: Your ideal (good way) is a game where most people (The Worst) do arbitrary shit jobs, so that a few players (The Best) can have all the real fun.

Reposting from the griefing thread so we can continue the relevant discussion in the PvP ideas thread:

Seriously though.  I'm not saying I even disagree with you in principle from a design standpoint Sinij, but lets be realistic, how often to the most casual/bad players end up with those roles in MMOs so far?  You can't REALLY think that those 4 roles are going to be hugely fun, engaging and popular for/among the casual player base you are talking about, can you?  If all this is for a PvP title designed for a specific PvP crowd, then fine, you can get away with that. But in the context of a mainstream/popular/mass market PvP game, I can't imagine this actually working out.  This is the griefing thread now, so I'm going to copy/past this entire thing into the PvP discussion thread, since I think it actually fits there better.
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #146 on: July 01, 2011, 02:09:59 PM

Focus fire seems to be a product of tab targetting.

Darkfall, where you have to aim your abilities FPS style, does not seem to have focus fire as a problem. At the same time Darkfall doesn't have good group combat. I personally prefer tab, simply because it allows you to focus on What To Do. Playing DF certainly made me appreciate 'tab' targeting system a lot, and I am veteran FPS person, so aiming isn't an issue.

Darkfall has great group combat... best part of the game is group pvp.
sinij
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Reply #147 on: July 01, 2011, 03:26:33 PM

Darkfall has great group combat... best part of the game is group pvp.

Darkfall has the worst group combat of any mmorpg I have ever played. 1v1 and 2v2 is fine, but anything above that quickly devolves into spamming nukes on people caught in bubbles. DF group combat is fundamental perversion of almost every rule of this thread.

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #148 on: July 01, 2011, 03:57:55 PM

I don't think you have played much high level Darkfall combat, or at least recently.

Forces that just try to spam out focus nukes are going to get chewed up by clans who know how to use other tactics. Destroyer infiltration, or full out mounted charges through ice storms will shred up someone using that kind of single minded doctrine.
DLRiley
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Reply #149 on: July 02, 2011, 07:43:11 PM

Shot in the dark.

What if your character remained persistent in the gameworld when you log off. Meaning that your avatar will be viewable and killable by any player. Your avatar will be for all intent and purposes asleep and will not respond to being hacked in the face. Oh and there is perma death.
sinij
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Reply #150 on: July 02, 2011, 08:11:15 PM

What if your character remained persistent in the gameworld when you log off. Meaning that your avatar will be viewable and killable by any player. Your avatar will be for all intent and purposes asleep and will not respond to being hacked in the face. Oh and there is perma death.

Then you will ether have most of your characters day old or you will have rotation of people playing couple characters 24/7. Assuming you could find people to play your game.

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
DLRiley
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Reply #151 on: July 03, 2011, 07:30:40 AM

What if your character remained persistent in the gameworld when you log off. Meaning that your avatar will be viewable and killable by any player. Your avatar will be for all intent and purposes asleep and will not respond to being hacked in the face. Oh and there is perma death.

Then you will ether have most of your characters day old or you will have rotation of people playing couple characters 24/7. Assuming you could find people to play your game.

A game so hard core that the hard core will run away pissing themselves screaming, ironically leaving a more casual playerbase to flurish lolz. Its very simple social experiment, normal open world pvp games revolves around small powerblocks gaining early dominance by being the first people to organize while the unwashed masses deal with whatever contrived bullshit the devs thought you need to do in order to level breathing. There is no way for the unwashed masses to fight these power blocks, without joining a power block. But what if those power players were just as vulnerable as the noobs they slaughter in the day time? Powerblocks that are built at its core around friends/hardcore players that play at certain hours of the day, now have to rely on other Powerblocks or even a few unwashed masses to protect them during the their off time. Inherently who can you trust with your ultimate resource when your offline?

I say there is nothing really casual about open world (unless its play with yourself minecraft), just go as hardcore as the internet allows. Push the hard core over the edge and see what your left with, anything catering toward the few casuals interested won't hold them because its too damn safe for the hard core to be well hard core.
sinij
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Reply #152 on: July 03, 2011, 02:21:49 PM

Sorry, I don't see how game revolving around punishing players can succeed. I also don't buy "casuals will play what hardcore find too hard", its all around broken logic.

Remember, when designing games you should try to provide fun and entertaining experience, not intentionally recreating Milgram experiments.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 02:23:32 PM by sinij »

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
DLRiley
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Reply #153 on: July 03, 2011, 09:38:01 PM

Sorry, I don't see how game revolving around punishing players can succeed. I also don't buy "casuals will play what hardcore find too hard", its all around broken logic.

Remember, when designing games you should try to provide fun and entertaining experience, not intentionally recreating Milgram experiments.

I'll level with you, there is nothing casual friendly about a game with full loot rubber stamped on the front. I can also say that a game like say Darkfall doesn't provide a "fun and entertaining experience" despite having a less draconian rule set than the one i stated. The fun and entertaining part is in the player community, or in better words actually being involved in one. Yet being involved in (using darkfall as an example again) the player community significantly enough requires immense amount of time on your end and commitment by the community in question, not because the "fun" of the game is found at the upper end of the power curve, but because the playing field rest sololy at that upper end and to even run away requires a retention killing amount of dedication for the players who aren't scared completely away from full loot but not willing to deal with 6 months of dedicated grind. (i read you darkfall post.)

My draconian rule simple evens the playing field or forces the player to take several steps to defend their most valued asset. Joe new player is just as likely to be ganked at the start (something that will happen anyway without making changes to the ruleset that will piss off the hardcore anyway) as he is to klill a level 20 in his sleep (and how many level 1 players can claim that in any game?).
Speedy Cerviche
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Reply #154 on: July 04, 2011, 09:18:40 AM

You're not going to get much of a thrill killing someone in their sleep, even if you are 20 levels lower...
DLRiley
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Reply #155 on: July 04, 2011, 05:00:32 PM

I think the importance of removing a high level from the game and taking his stuff would be interesting enough.
sinij
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Reply #156 on: July 05, 2011, 10:08:38 AM

You are talking about survival game, not PvP. Goal of PvP title is to facilitate and encourage PvP, unlike survival game where PvP is elimination mechanism and is to be avoided at all costs.

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
DLRiley
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Reply #157 on: July 05, 2011, 10:16:04 AM

Good enough for me.
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #158 on: July 06, 2011, 11:27:16 AM

The strategic layers needs to be dynamic.  Resources maps, terrain effects, and tech trees need to be constantly but predictably mutating.  This prevents players from having comfortable seat at the top.  Sure your empire is bad ass when void cannons and damage shields are available, but next week damage shields with be gone and void cannons won't have their AOE damage bonus. Should you invade your neighbor to get silent ore to build teleport nodes and vorpal weapons for you foot soldiers. Or should you expand your production of qi mana for binary armor and grappling claws. What about the enemy? They will be sitting on ton of rainbow cotton and having a nation of people with personal invisibility looking for revenge will be a bitch and a half.  Maybe we should try to raze their fields? Which objective is best? Can we handle all three without spreading ourselves too thin?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2011, 12:53:28 PM by tazelbain »

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DLRiley
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Reply #159 on: July 06, 2011, 01:59:27 PM

You are talking about survival game, not PvP. Goal of PvP title is to facilitate and encourage PvP, unlike survival game where PvP is elimination mechanism and is to be avoided at all costs.

To elaborate current pvp titles work like a survival game anyway. Once enough bank is gathered and being camped, the only reason to pvp is to eliminate loosely defended bank you don't have in order to prevent the steam rolling. The keyword being loosely defended, once a side cements there advantage over a piece of bank the desire to actively contest constantly becomes more costly to the aggressors.
pxib
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Reply #160 on: July 06, 2011, 05:49:36 PM

To elaborate current pvp titles work like a survival game anyway. Once enough bank is gathered and being camped, the only reason to pvp is to eliminate loosely defended bank you don't have in order to prevent the steam rolling.
So reverse it.

Make constructable targets explicitly temporary. As soon as they are built, they begin to decay... not in the sense that they will fall by themselves, but in the sense that they will take progressively more damage from progressively less elaborate weaponry. A brand new flux forge can't be knocked down by anything short of a battering ram, but one that's been sitting around for a few hours can be knocked down by one patient guy with a club.

Ether can only be gathered with a webwarp (smaller to build than the forge... easier to destroy, faster to decay), and it must be processed at a flux forge within a short period of time in order to produce the highest quality flux. The webwarps also provide a local buff to mana regeneration, and the forges also act as a power for other types of buildings. Nobody with fewer than three operating forges can build an eidolon sanctuary, for example.

Materials common and easy to produce by one side are unusual and complex for the other, so destroyed enemy buildings can be looted for a few of those rare materials. Enemy players who are working at particular tasks provide particular sorts of medals and trinkets which can be turned in for goodies back at HQ. Killing mages while they're affected by a webwarp buff might be particularly worthwhile, for example.

The model then isn't "we're defending this town until it can stand by itself" (a projects that takes weeks or months and is undone in a day) but "hey let's put up an eidolon sanctuary"... something that's realistically only going to survive half an hour, and be pretty assuredly attracting a steadily increasing stream of enemy attention that entire time. The rewards and upgrades survive, the constructed objectives do not.
sinij
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Reply #161 on: July 06, 2011, 06:25:12 PM

Interesting. Combine this with SWG-like harvesting/crafting and you are onto something.

Still, I am strong advocate of "secure base" for all players, be it NPC city or Player City or instanced house... in open-PvP title there has to be a spot where player can feel secure or the will dread logging in.

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
pxib
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Reply #162 on: July 06, 2011, 07:08:05 PM

Oh absolutely. I like the idea of fixed safe zones with quest hubs. Stuff like "use this incense to collect smokey soulwisps from the burning corpses of six druids within the next hour". Along with basic purchaseable materials and places to turn in the simplest of medals. Basically a place for merchants and recruiters to hang out and for other players to find either guilds or groups.

Guilds would have customizable instanced bases with features and portals that turn on and off depending on which buildings the guild currently has up and running out in the dangerous world. And the world itself would contain areas better or worse suited to particular buildings and resources, with rich nodes appearing in random locations therein from time to time. Everybody would know where to patrol to look for player outposts of particular types, and the most valuable areas would be the most hotly contested.

Instead of 2AM being a good time to knock over somebody else's creations, it would be a good time to sneak into the best spots with minimal interference. Unless anybody else gets the same idea.
sinij
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Reply #163 on: August 09, 2011, 01:31:38 AM

Here is another idea:

Your "character" is your household/dynasty.

Your avatar when defeated in combat get knocked out or outright killed, when simply knocked out you could get revived but if you lose in any meaningful way you are gone since your enemy will finish you off (or maybe captured and held for a ransom where you are given an option to pay your way out of death).  Even when victorious not all wounds can be healed, every time you take damage there is a chance it can permanently cripple your current avatar. When you die/retire your current avatar's son/daughter step in, this is soft character reset. If you die couple times in a row you get progressively harsher debuff "too young", where your character ends up literally a scrawny teenager holding over-sized weapon with minimal training. Death is meaningful but not too harsh since it doesn't cost you anything to move down succession line.

Your "character" progression comes from following - household prestige that translates to ability to manufacture better equipment via household craftsman, more teachers where you gain access to more and higher level starting combat abilities to use and training hall where you can improve your starting hit points. Not all your characters are the same, each generation has built in randomness that you can somewhat influence by "spouse preference". Some will be weaker and some will be stronger at their peak.

Each avatar, after being victorious in combat, gains abilities and stats very rapidly. You gain access to any ability that was successfully used against you at least once and you can take and use any equipment from slain enemies. There is absolutely no limit what you can learn via combat, but you are limited what you could start with by choice of your avatar's trainers.

Your avatar's progression goes as follows - start with a pre-selected choice of abilities, gain new abilities via combat while getting more debuffs via wounds. Idea is that regardless how good you are as a player, eventually you take enough wounds that you have to reset your avatar. If you are bad players, you get mangled fairly quickly but everyone is expected to go through a number of avatars.

EQUIPMENT - heavier armor you use, more resistant to damage (and wounds) you are but slower and more restricted your character gets.

Examples:

Your household have trainers for swing and dodge, so you start with 6/10 in each ability. Within time frame of 1 PvP battle or couple PvE battles you get 10/10 in both of these. Plus you pick up charge (1/10) from being used on you. You start with 10 hitpoints, and quickly gain your peak of 12. In process you take 1 wound lowering your max hit points to 11.

 

« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 01:45:54 AM by sinij »

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
DLRiley
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Reply #164 on: August 10, 2011, 01:41:15 PM

You gain access to any ability that was successfully used against you at least once

Actually the best idea in this thread.

Oh absolutely. I like the idea of fixed safe zones with quest hubs. Stuff like "use this incense to collect smokey soulwisps from the burning corpses of six druids within the next hour"

Only works if the quest themselves can be done safely. Otherwise the wolves will camp the quest nods and it would be too much effort to do a quest when simply farming the gold/material surrounded by people you already know in places less likely to be filled by afk bots would be preferred.
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #165 on: August 10, 2011, 04:57:55 PM

You gain access to any ability that was successfully used against you at least once

Actually the best idea in this thread.

Oh absolutely. I like the idea of fixed safe zones with quest hubs. Stuff like "use this incense to collect smokey soulwisps from the burning corpses of six druids within the next hour"

Only works if the quest themselves can be done safely. Otherwise the wolves will camp the quest nods and it would be too much effort to do a quest when simply farming the gold/material surrounded by people you already know in places less likely to be filled by afk bots would be preferred.
Isn't that the same as give everyone every skill?

"Me am play gods"
DLRiley
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Reply #166 on: August 10, 2011, 06:43:05 PM

You gain access to any ability that was successfully used against you at least once

Actually the best idea in this thread.

Oh absolutely. I like the idea of fixed safe zones with quest hubs. Stuff like "use this incense to collect smokey soulwisps from the burning corpses of six druids within the next hour"

Only works if the quest themselves can be done safely. Otherwise the wolves will camp the quest nods and it would be too much effort to do a quest when simply farming the gold/material surrounded by people you already know in places less likely to be filled by afk bots would be preferred.
Isn't that the same as give everyone every skill?

Any typical open world game has a rudimentary skill point allocation system. Say someone uses an advance skill, it can basically unlock the beginning edge of the skill tree it takes to learn that skill. you can choose to divert your skill points to learning that new skill tree or you can continue along your given path. Unlocking a skill tree can just give you an resistance since you have "experience" against that attack and that could be leveled up with each encounter.
sinij
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Reply #167 on: August 10, 2011, 07:20:44 PM

Isn't that the same as give everyone every skill?

It is, unless you hard-reset avatars as part of the game. Idea is that your avatar get physically weaker longer you go, but in turn gains more and more options. If you are really good and/or lucky you can somewhat delay it, but at some point you ether get outright killed or too weak to fight regardless how good you are.

This concept answers couple problems - how do you provide even playing field and still allow some progression, how do you make win/loss less binary and introduce more states (i.e. Pyrrhic victory) and how you give bad players a valuable role (i.e. meatshield or berserker) without dumbing down or making overly random combat.

Downside I expect is that players are trained to identify with their avatars, getting killed and having to go "next generation" might cause grief for your average bear carebear. PvPers, who are used to dying will probably be fine.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 07:25:14 PM by sinij »

Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
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