Roleplaying Console

[Calantus]

Good point, the combat could be more engaging such that you'd have reason to actually play a character, and the FF games have a way to go before they have that for anything but bosses. I still think the RT/TB hybrid with AI for allies is the way to go for group combat though. :P

[stray]

What games did it better? This isn't me being a dick, I just want to know what they are so I can check em out.

Rogue Galaxy. Or Square's own Kingdom Hearts (though RG is an improvement over that). Or even Devil Summoner (though Devil Summoner's real strengths to me are other things).

RG isn't perfect by any means, but the heavy action/hack and slash thing - that's the direction I'd like real time RPG combat to go in. Both in terms of pacing and actions/input from the player, as well as monster and boss difficulty. FFXII, on the other hand, felt very uninvolved -- Input was centered around specials.....Like an MMO -- I want more action than that.

[EDIT] I can see why Squeenix didn't go fullblown ARPG for FFXII though. Probably would have caused a riot. Maybe next time...

[Kitsune]

The problem with the PS2 RPGs is that most of them are so old that they're out of print and can be a bitch to find.

Disgaea is super-rare.
Grandia 2 is ditto.
Xenogears is PS1, making it even harder, but it's really a must-play despite the dated graphics.

The Final Fantasy stuff is easy enough to find on account of having printed billions of them, but less mainstream RPGs occasionally had teensy tiny print runs, making it painful to find some of the gems.

Plus there are a whoooole lot of generic, bad RPGs floating around out there.  Be sure to dig up reviews on any you see before you buy, or you might be sad.

[schild]

Disgaea has been reprinted 3 times now. Just go to Rosenqueen.com and buy it.

[Strazos]

Personally, I was disappointed and bored with the combat of Kingdom Hearts. I don't think I'll ever be able to finish the game, as it just felt so dull to me.

[stray]

Well, like I said, Rogue Galaxy is an improvement over it. It can kick your ass just as much as any beat em up --- at times. Plus, it's just an all around better game for other reasons.

That being said, if Kingdom Hearts is dull, then what is FFXII? That's all I'm really trying to measure it against (Calantus asked about real time combat, not how KH measures up against this or that SRPG).

Combat pretty much plays itself in FFXII. You cycle through a power or two, pop some potions and let the game do everything in between. That's the epitome of dull.

I like the constant participation an ARPG requires from a player over that. I like a game that will punish me for falling asleep, not blocking, not moving out of the way, etc..

And if not that, then go all out old school. At least turn based games require more tactical thinking.

[Rasix]

Well, like I said, Rogue Galaxy is an improvement over it. It can kick your ass just as much as any beat em up --- at times. Plus, it's just an all around better game for other reasons.

That being said, if Kingdom Hearts is dull, then what is FFXII? That's all I'm really trying to measure it against (Calantus asked about real time combat, not how KH measures up against this or that SRPG).

Combat pretty much plays itself in FFXII. You cycle through a power or two, pop some potions and let the game do everything in between. That's the epitome of dull.

I like the constant participation an ARPG requires from a player over that. I like a game that will punish me for falling asleep, not blocking, not moving out of the way, etc..

And if not that, then go all out old school. At least turn based games require more tactical thinking.

See, this is just personal opinion.  I don't find mashing the x-button (add some square button mashing for flavor), while your team-mates run around like idiots, an improvement over the gambit system.  It's just a different beast altogether.   However, Rogue Galaxy's combat is a LOT better than kingdom hearts which never seemed to rise above random button mashing (comparing like systems here).  KH's camera didn't help much either.

I like interesting combat systems.  The gambit system to me was interesting.  So is RH's at times.  But really, in most RPGs, I'd prefer the gambit system.  I really don't care much about beating up on trash mobs in a RPG unless you can bring the action up to GoW quality. FFXII system during boss fights just plays out like a turn based system, except you have the luxury of instant interupts for any action.  Honestly, the problem with FXII is that it got ridiculously easy if you overleveled in the slightest.

Edit: You can still get all 3 Shadow Hearts games on gamequestdirect.com.  SH1 & 2 back-to-back is a truly marvelous experience.  SH2's judgement ring is pure awesomeness.

[Velorath]

See, this is just personal opinion.  I don't find mashing the x-button (add some square button mashing for flavor), while your team-mates run around like idiots, an improvement over the gambit system.  It's just a different beast altogether.   However, Rogue Galaxy's combat is a LOT better than kingdom hearts which never seemed to rise above random button mashing (comparing like systems here).  KH's camera didn't help much either.

I like interesting combat systems.  The gambit system to me was interesting.  So is RH's at times.  But really, in most RPGs, I'd prefer the gambit system.  I really don't care much about beating up on trash mobs in a RPG unless you can bring the action up to GoW quality. FFXII system during boss fights just plays out like a turn based system, except you have the luxury of instant interupts for any action.  Honestly, the problem with FXII is that it got ridiculously easy if you overleveled in the slightest.

Well, RPG makers are going to have to continue to change the way they deal with combat and trash mobs.  I don't think that grinding through trash should be any more acceptable these days in an offline RPG than it is in an MMO, especially considering RPG's have had a much longer time to evolve than MMO's.  All these pointless encounters do is extend the play time of the game so developers can claim their RPG has over 50 hours of gameplay.  Fuck, I'll take a 10 hour RPG if it gets rid of most of the pointless shit the average RPG puts me through.  Don't even get me started on developers who load their RPG's full of "secrets" that could only realistically be found by people using guides.  Like there was any way in-game to find out that if I open one of a handful of particular chests I won't be able to get the Zodiac Spear or whatever.  The bitches are just trying to sell their $15-20 guides to people who don't want to check the guides on gamefaqs every five minutes or print out a ton of pages.

[stray]

The bit about trash mobs I can agree with. Rogue Galaxy has them, sure.

But....Some of them can kick your ass easily. Especially when they're a mix of types you have to fight at the same time.

Like, when one type of mob needs a charge attack to take any damage, two other types need jumping attacks, and there's some mean ass tarantula with a shitload of hitpoints and high damage after you to boot (if you've played RG, then you know the type).

With only so much time and hitpoints, taking out these guys can be a pain. Easier said than done.

So, in fact, with that difficulty in place, they're not really trash mobs at all.

...

Boss battles aren't Shadow of the Colossus or anything, but they are a step above what most RPG's are doing. This is where RG really does a good job.

All in all, this makes for good combat. Much better than FFXII imo.
-------------

All that being said though, it could still slim off on the filler material. I get that completely. I think the next step is to make ALL battles meaningful to the narrative, and highly dramatized and scripted. I touched upon that in the Rogue Galaxy thread too.

What I'm hoping is something that plays out like that White Knight trailer, but all the time (btw, this game is being made by the Rogue Galaxy/DQ8 guys too).

I know next to nothing about that game though -- I'm just using that footage as an example. If a game had nothing but sequences like that, it'd be the polar opposite of killing trash mobs. Everything would have a point and would start feeling more like PnP.

[EDIT]

Ultimately, what I want is God of War or Devil May Cry (especially pertaining to combat feel and boss battles), with Silent Hill or RE4 levels of scripting (no random enemies that pop up or come out of the ground. I want everything I encounter to be intimately part of the storytelling), and some nicely fleshed out RPG class and character building. Toss in Adventure genre levels of character interaction (or just Bioware levels) and it'd be heaven.

You could say that I don't want an RPG at all probably.

Also, I'm probably going way out of the scope of this thread. ;)

[Calantus]

Also, I'm probably going way out of the scope of this thread. ;)

The main question only needed a 3 letter reply to be answered, we don't need to feel guilty derailing it this far in. :P

too much stuff to quote

The GoW and DMC requests I agree with, I'd like to play more games like that, but sometimes you just want to kick back and not have to work for every kill. FFXII is absolutely perfect for that, I'm just running around letting my guys fight stuff to advance the story and give me more LP to assign, with interjections of tough fights here and there. So I don't think that FFXII's combat is bad because it's not GoW level, because that's not what it's combat is for.

On the subject of trash mobs I'll have to agree there. Respawning and random battles in particular is something I've developed a dislike for. When something dies I want it to stay dead. I also don't want to have to fight every X monster from one end of the plains to the other (though I will if they're there, xp is still xp). The skeleton bridge in Lhusu Mines is a perfect example. If you've got a low level party it can be quite a fight as you slowly fight your way through the spawning skeletons to the end. But after that... why are you fighting single skeletons in the next zone? If I can kill multiples, what is the purpose of feeding me singles to munch on? And what is the purpose of the 9th solo wolf in a zone? Is that solitary wolf going to cause me trouble when I can kill him in a single round? Ideally when you get to a new zone flavour you'd come across a few singles of the monsters you are to fight so you know what they're about. Then you'd ramp it up with packs of monsters, different flavour monsters with tougher abilities, or monster comboes, perhaps finishing off with a huge meatgrinder or a long endurance/running battle. Sprinkle in some unique mobs as appropriate and that's the zone.

[Rasix]

The bit about trash mobs I can agree with. Rogue Galaxy has them, sure.

But....Some of them can kick your ass easily. Especially when they're a mix of types you have to fight at the same time.

Like, when one type of mob needs a charge attack to take any damage, two other types need jumping attacks, and there's some mean ass tarantula with a shitload of hitpoints and high damage after you to boot (if you've played RG, then you know the type).

With only so much time and hitpoints, taking out these guys can be a pain. Easier said than done.

So, in fact, with that difficulty in place, they're not really trash mobs at all.

No, they're still trash mobs.  Difficult trash is still trash. Their sole purpose is to  pop out of the ether and just make it longer to traverse RG's bland level design.  And maybe give you that damn ribbon so C3P0 can get Eye Beam 2. The jump-to-kill and break-the-barrier mobs I just roll my eyes at.  Sorry, they're just bothersome, not challenging.  Only challenge is that mobs hit like a truck and your teammates are often too retarded to defend themselves.  Still, I've only hit gameover on that solo Deego fight when I really wasn't paying attention to how hard that bastard was hitting.

If you're looking for a model of a game with content that's interesting but goes beyond trash -> trash-> trash-> end boss, just look at Deus Ex.  I know some folks might not consider Deus Ex or System Shock 2 to be RPGS, but I consider them to be some of the best examples of RPG combat done right. This may also be due to the sneakiness factor and that the way you fight is chosen a great deal about how you make your character with the option of choosing the right kind of attack for a certain fight. 

I guess we can agree to disagree here.  I don't thing RG's combat bring anything noteworthy to the genre that we really haven't seen before.  If it were a bit closer to X-Men Legends 2 type of combat (better integration of powers, destructable environments, combos, etc), I might like it a bit better.  That being said, I don't think it makes the game worse, because I still think quite a bit of the game.

This is just making me salivate for March 13, you know.

[stray]

Eh, I like X Men Legends, and even though they're in the same vein, that's the kind of ARPG experience that I'd consider inferior. Sure, the levels are designed well, but the combat is pretty mindless and easy. You can literally plow through those Marvel games (and I'm not going to even mention Jean Grey...).

Only challenge is that mobs hit like a truck and your teammates are often too retarded to defend themselves.

Well, I think the challenge is when those mob types are mixed together. You have to change modes quickly when switching targets, or you find yourself doing jump or charge attacks on the wrong dudes. So it's the sense of confusion that I like there. Also, I like the fact that it's often necessary to block the attacks of these guys (because they do hit like a truck, like you said), instead of just relying on attacks getting through.

I'm not saying RG is hard to the point that I get stomped to death or anything, but I do find it more challenging than just bashing on everything without a care in the world. I like minions to be tough. I LIKE to be cockblocked by these worthless minions somewhat (else, what's the point of having them there to begin with?). I want it to be even harder.

Also, I'm not saying RG is perfect -- but it has it's moments. And those moments are just a case study and a leading off point for me. I want smaller mobs in games to be even less transparent and more intelligent. Instead of just requiring charge or jump attacks (or whatever), I want an even larger pallette of tactics needed to use against them. I want them all to be mini bosses, highly scripted -- but in less numbers.

[EDIT] I think we're more in agreement than we aren't. We both want something that aspires to a PnP experience, where even the average encounter at lvl 1 isn't a breeze like it is in CRPGs -- and where there are few, if any, "trash mobs".

I'm just saying that the game I have in mind would use a challenging action oriented combat system to accomplish that (among other things). RG isn't that game at all -- It's just, as I said, a leading off point for me in this discussion.

[Tebonas]

Also, I'm probably going way out of the scope of this thread. ;)

The main question only needed a 3 letter reply to be answered, we don't need to feel guilty derailing it this far in. :P

Yeah, and oddly enough I lean towards the Wii anyway. The virtual console stuff sounds like it would be easier getting old games than digging around for old PS2 games around here (I'd have to order all of them online, most either in England or even the US). Plus some Nonrpgs sound fun to have a go at with multiple people in the house.

What thus thread showed me is that console RPGs are overrated for the most part anyway and have little to do with classic crpgs (c=computer). Might as well jump into the cold water and play some funny innovative games.

[Yegolev]

Hmm, well, wishing for a better game aside, I find the combat in FFXII to be much, much better than any of it since the introduction of ATB, and before even.  I find it much less engaging than Vagrant Story or FFT, though.  I'm OK with fixing the symptoms; gottta start somewhere, and being able to program my team is better than pressing X with memory cursor turned on, which is what I was doing in the last one I played (FFVII).  I like FFXII for the ways it improved on the series, and the genre conventions in general.  It's a first, really.  Also, the amount of detail in the game is impressive; spend some time looking around outside and you can see other areas at times, and not just the one you are about to zone into.  The story isn't retarded, either.  I do have numerous complaints about it, but I will save those for later.

What thus thread showed me is that console RPGs are overrated for the most part anyway and have little to do with classic crpgs (c=computer).

You should note that you are getting comments from the JRPG equivalent of the F13 MMO Burnouts here.  However, you are correct in that there isn't anything like Might & Magic VIII on the PS2 that I am aware of (thank God).  Maybe you should check out Romance of the Three Kingdoms X?  I'd call that a RPG, and it's not really like the others since it's a historical simulation with army-level combat most of the time.  If you want engaging combat of the usual nature, you can't get better than Shin Megami Tensei, if you ask me.  Shadowhearts 1&2 are probably better overall RPGs, but that's going to be very subjective.

[stray]

What thus thread showed me is that console RPGs are overrated for the most part anyway and have little to do with classic crpgs (c=computer). Might as well jump into the cold water and play some funny innovative games.

Hey, I'm not the biggest RPG fan or anything...I think you're better off playing "funny innovative games" --- But, you're also wrong. There are console RPG's worth looking into, and they are far from overrated. They wouldn't have stuck around for 20+ years if that wasn't the case.

[Tebonas]

Overrated meaning "Not worth buying a console just for that". I won't get old RPG games over here, the secondary market just isn't large enough. I never ever saw Disgaea in a shop for sale, none of the multiple revisions that came out. Everything I find is German, and I hate playing foreign games in German translation. I will have to order everything online in shops that specifically take overseas orders without making you poor in the process. Which means Europe only. which basically means Great Britain only.

So I am mostly confined to current titles, which in quantity suck as much on consoles as they do on the PC. I was more optimistic a few days ago, but after browsing many shops that optimism is gone.

[stray]

Fair enough. I wouldn't buy a console just for RPGs either, especially if they were overpriced and a bitch to get.

[Sky]

Oh I'm not saying that stuff isn't there (just like it is here), but it's also a culture that has created the likes of Toshiro Mifune, Sonny Chiba, Takashi Miike, the Transformers, Ryu, Jubei, Lone Wolf and Cub, Godzilla, Hokuto no Ken, Harlock, and the like. Hell, I'd even say Ghost in the Shell, even though it has a female lead, belongs in this category.

Yeah, I don't like any of that stuff. I liked Godzilla when I was five, but even then I realized how shitty it was.

You can literally plow through those Marvel games

Play on the highest difficulty. And don't take the "I WIN" characters ;)

[stray]

Oh I'm not saying that stuff isn't there (just like it is here), but it's also a culture that has created the likes of Toshiro Mifune, Sonny Chiba, Takashi Miike, the Transformers, Ryu, Jubei, Lone Wolf and Cub, Godzilla, Hokuto no Ken, Harlock, and the like. Hell, I'd even say Ghost in the Shell, even though it has a female lead, belongs in this category.

Yeah, I don't like any of that stuff. I liked Godzilla when I was five, but even then I realized how shitty it was.

You don't like what? Toshiro, Takashi, or Hokuto?

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with you?

It's one thing to hate some Chibi All Stars shit --- But that list above? You're out of your mind. I don't think you even know what half of those things are, because if you did, you wouldn't hate them. They're unhateable.

[Sky]

I never said I hated them. Just not my taste.

I know what most of those things are. I do not like them.

I guess the fuck that is wrong with me is that I'm not Stray?

[stray]

Right on. You're not Stray. That is exactly your problem. 

Seriously though....

Toshiro Mifune. That's like not being impressed by Bogart, Eastwood, Wayne, and Shakespeare.

[Riggswolfe]

This is just making me salivate for March 13, you know.

What comes out March 13?

[stray]

[Yegolev]

AKA the next reason to buy a PS2.

Keke.

[Strazos]

Sky hates Japan.

Also, X-Men Legends, MUA and the like...sorry, they fucking sucked balls for me.

[Riggswolfe]

Ahhh...I still haven't ever played the first one.

[Calantus]

Must... resist... urge... to... accuse... Riggswolfe... of... not... being... a... gamer...

[Riggswolfe]

Must... resist... urge... to... accuse... Riggswolfe... of... not... being... a... gamer...

I hear good things but I just haven't been motivated enough honestly. Probably because I'm so hooked on the 360. That and I heard it was short and short games are my pet peeve.

[Strazos]

Honestly, I haven't played it either. I played about 30 seconds of the demo for GoW2, messed with the combat controls a bit, had the controls strike me as being "spammy," and got pulled away to attend to something.

I'll probably play both games eventually, but I've already got a larger stack than I can deal with. And I started to play HoMMV again. And I bought the expansion for it. And I bought the Gal Civ II Gold pack.

No Time.

[stray]

Just give God of War at least enough time to get to the Hydra. Which is about 15 minutes.

[schild]

HoMMV and GalCiv combined are not as good as God of War. God of War is also a one sitting game. If you say you have no time...


...you're lying.

[stray]

Yeah, pretty much.

I'm just tired of telling people that. Heh.

[Strazos]

Yeah, I'll probably take a copy out when I go in today, as I don't have to be back in until Friday.

I mean, it couldn't hurt I suppose.

[Signe]

Must... resist... urge... to... accuse... Riggswolfe... of... not... being... a... gamer...

I hear good things but I just haven't been motivated enough honestly. Probably because I'm so hooked on the 360. That and I heard it was short and short games are my pet peeve.

I have the original still sitting unopened on the game-holdy-mathingy with about ten other unopened games.  My consoles are getting very dusty.  My motivation level is way down for everything lately.  I need a vacation, I think.  Scotland in April for the in-laws 50th wedding anniversary, England for a couple of days to see friends and maybe a quickie to Amsterdam, too.  Actually, that might make it worse.  I'm exhausted thinking about all that traveling.

[Riggswolfe]

God of War is also a one sitting game.

This one sentence is why I haven't bought it. If Blockbuster has it in I might rent it but I'm not parting with my money for something that will only take me a single Saturday to beat. It's the same reason I didn't get Tomb Raider Legend even though the demo was quite fun.The reviews said it was a <10 hour game which totally turns me off.