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f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  Game Design/Development  |  Topic: How Much is Enough? 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
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Author Topic: How Much is Enough?  (Read 9207 times)
Tmon
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Posts: 1232


on: February 27, 2007, 04:56:35 PM

I've been thinking lately that one the problems with MMOs is that all of them seem to start out by promising lots of new features plus all the cool ones from popular games.  Unfortunately, as time goes on in the development process features are cut or rescoped so that by launch day the game is a pallid shadow of it's early hype.  Then the folks drawn to the original vision  start spamming the boards with complaints of paying to beta and plans to boycott until their pet feature is put in the game the right way.   So I'm wondering what the people here think would be the bare minimum features a game would have to have at launch to be successful enough to allow time for the devs to create and bolt on new systems and features.  I am going to make the leap of faith that the devs are competent enough to create a system that allows features to be added with requiring massive recoding and that by focusing on a limited feature set they were able to smoothly launch a polished product.
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #1 on: February 27, 2007, 06:24:53 PM

lately?

I have a spreadsheet with games and their features.  Each feature is give a numerical weight and probability.  The speedsheet munges all that up to give each gave a rating.  Now that rating is divided by the cost of owning that game for 2 months.  So when I am looking for a game to play, I just browse the list and choose the game with the highest rating per dollar I haven't played yet.

"Me am play gods"
pxib
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Reply #2 on: February 27, 2007, 10:13:05 PM

Yes. Hype is a big problem.

Developers would be best served to just say "I know you've been curious what the awesome project we've been working on for the past two years is... well it's a game about pirates and cowboys in space! It's the same team who made that other game you love and we're using an upgraded version of our excellent 3D engine... it's going into beta now and should be released some time next year. Here's the gameplay trailer... see ya when the NDA drops!" Listing features and pandering to fans gets them in trouble.

Good features tend to have the whole game built around them. Encouraging designers to bolt new features onto a fun, playable game, even one especially designed with this in mind, is a recipe for disaster.

if at last you do succeed, never try again
Azaroth
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Posts: 1959


Reply #3 on: February 28, 2007, 01:06:13 PM

lately?

I have a spreadsheet with games and their features.  Each feature is give a numerical weight and probability.  The speedsheet munges all that up to give each gave a rating.  Now that rating is divided by the cost of owning that game for 2 months.  So when I am looking for a game to play, I just browse the list and choose the game with the highest rating per dollar I haven't played yet.

Post it.

F  is inviting you to start Quarto. Do you want to Accept (Alt+C) or Decline (Alt+D) the invitation?
 
  You have accepted the invitation to start Quarto.
 
F  says:
don't know what this is
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sinij
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WWW
Reply #4 on: March 01, 2007, 09:56:50 PM


Eternity is a very long time, especially towards the end.
Azaroth
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Reply #5 on: March 01, 2007, 11:52:27 PM

Nah, I'd really like to see it :)

I'm curious as to how in-depth it is.

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Stephen Zepp
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Reply #6 on: March 02, 2007, 10:51:58 AM

I have to admit, the developer in me would kill for a copy of your spreadsheet!

Rumors of War
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #7 on: March 02, 2007, 02:09:02 PM

Recent events have convinced me that the Spreadsheet is just too dangerous to allow it to be re-distributed.  In fact I have destroyed all copies with the hope the nobody else will get hurt.  My deepest apologies to everyone affected by the Speadsheet.  There may still be a copy on an old cdrom that I lost, so please if you find a cd with the label "PC Bkup 06" please just destroy it.

"Me am play gods"
Stephen Zepp
Developers
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InstantAction


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Reply #8 on: March 02, 2007, 02:19:47 PM

Recent events have convinced me that the Spreadsheet is just too dangerous to allow it to be re-distributed.  In fact I have destroyed all copies with the hope the nobody else will get hurt.  My deepest apologies to everyone affected by the Speadsheet.  There may still be a copy on an old cdrom that I lost, so please if you find a cd with the label "PC Bkup 06" please just destroy it.

rofl...you suck!

Seriously though, it's probably a one of a kind type thing....maybe you should patent it! (insider joke, software patents are a hot topic lately in the industry)

Rumors of War
Xilren's Twin
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Posts: 1648


Reply #9 on: March 02, 2007, 03:19:55 PM

 So I'm wondering what the people here think would be the bare minimum features a game would have to have at launch to be successful enough to allow time for the devs to create and bolt on new systems and features. 

But it's not always clear what is a self contained "feature/system", and when that is considered complete.

Take something like "has a class based system".  How many times have we seen game launch where some classes are not implemented, or half done, or full of bugs, of imbalanced to hell and back?  And yet in those same games some percentage of the classes do work.  So to avoid the overpromise, underliver issue, you would only hype the classes you KNOW will be done, which equals marketing suck when you ad's say "now with 4 base classes...and more to come that are still in testing!"  As a business, you wouldn't want to do that, even though that may well be the truth.  It seems to be rare that many classes get added after launch other than via expansion pack, so you'd better have all the ones you want in no matter how incomplete they are.

Same thing with "3 continents of jaw dropping content!".  You have to have content, but is 1 million sq miles of randomly generated landscape with zero interesting things in it considered a "feature"?

In terms of my personal minimum systems required, i finding mine are a bit broad.  It doesn't really matter to me if a game has player housing, or pvp, or crafting out the wazoo, or an auction house per se.  I do know enough about myself to say i much prefer a directed game experience rather than a free form virtual world, but that mainly a function of time; since I don't have a lot, i don't want to waste it creating my own fun.  So the below are more "rules of thumb" for what I want and they can be very subjective.

1.) Technical competence
     The game must be stable, not laggy due to crowding, decent graphically on my rig without upgrading, with minimum number of bugs that stop my play session from progressing (broken quests, falling through world, bad mob pathing, chat system that works, etc)

2.) Logical and functional game systems
     If you have a class system, they should have diversity and purpose for each and presumably, some stab at balance
     If you have a skill based system, there should be no skills worthless to have, and no overpowered skills; try to avoid templating, have some form of skill reallocation
     If you have combat, combat itself should be engaging and thought provoking beyond "hit a and grab a sandwich" or even "hit 1, 2, 3, 1, 4, 2, 3, 1, 4" over and over; also try to have more combat resolutions than just "you win, mob dead" and "mob wins,  you're dead"
     If you have combat that is level based i.e. a lvl 50 always will be a level 10, don't try to put players into unwinnable fights unless they choose to attempt them i.e. stop putting lvl 50 wandering elites in a newbie zone
    Try to avoid a straight power curve that makes a level 30 unkillable by a group of level 10s no matter how good their tactics
    Decide what you want to be and stick to it; if you want to be solo friendly, be solo friendly through out the game; if you want to be group required, do so from newbie levels - don't bait and switch
    In the same way, decide if you want to be a "time(avatar skill) > skill" game or a "player skill > avatar skill"
    Decide if you are a game with world trappings or a virtual world with some game like systems in it; basically is there directed stuff in game for me to do or am i having to make that up on my own
    If you have combat PvP, make it opt in in some fashion; if you have economy pvp (i.e. a guild cornering the auction house on rez potions) try not to allow it to be absolute so others can't play
    Don't make me do unfun things to unlock fun things
    Have multiple rewards for advancement; where do I earn exp/skill gains; have more than 1 way
    Decide on your stance for an in game economy and how out of game stuff can factor into that from design day 1 and plan accordingly (i.e. loot transference, farming potential, character sales, bots, 3rd party add ons etc)
    Know who your target audience is, and what your game strength is supposed to be and stick to that
    Make sure every feature has a reason for be in game, not just "WoW has a mail system so we need one too"

Damn, im getting long winded, but basically if I were giving advice, it would simply be "pick your focus, start small, and do that WELL, then come back and add other well done features"
I'd much rather see a well done niche game with few features in it than a huge sprawling game that has 20 half asses ones.   

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
Llava
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Reply #10 on: March 02, 2007, 08:32:18 PM

Quote
How much..?
42

That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more abundantly they are permitted to see the punishment of the damned in hell. -Saint Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica
Tmon
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Posts: 1232


Reply #11 on: March 03, 2007, 04:31:13 PM

Quote
Damn, im getting long winded, but basically if I were giving advice, it would simply be "pick your focus, start small, and do that WELL, then come back and add other well done features"

So the question is how tightly can you focus and still have something that is seen as a complete game?  Do you have to launch with 10 classes, 8 races and a starting zone for each?  What systems do you need at the start to be considered complete, I'd say combat, questing and basic economic (NPC vendors, AH, and working player to player trade) systems but will significant numbers of players even buy a game that doesn't ship with PVP,crafting, pets, and mounts?  Even if you don't promise those systems will your game still be called incomplete and rushed when it launches?
Jayce
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Diluted Fool


Reply #12 on: March 05, 2007, 07:11:54 PM

I don't think it's possible to give a definitive list, because even in this industry's embryonic state, there's too much variety to say.

PvP?  Some games are entirely based around it, some don't even have it.  It depends on what sort of game you're making.  Obviously Guild Wars wouldn't go far without its PvP, but in EQ1 it was a pathetic afterthought that could very well have been left out.

How many classes or races?  Some games do great without classes.  How many skills?  Depends on whether they are dependent (WTFPwning I, II, III, and IV), hierarchical, etc. 

Some games don't really have races that make a difference, and do fine (like AC1).

Many games don't have mounts or player housing.

I guess my point is that you would in fact need a spreadsheet to come up with the sort of information you are looking for, but you would still really not have that much.  What REALLY needs to go into a good MMOG can't be expressed with numbers.  Balance, content, style, social options, and most of all fun are what's important.  That's what makes this stuff HARD.

You shouldn't think of launching without at least 7 fun.

Witty banter not included.
Margalis
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Reply #13 on: March 05, 2007, 10:13:28 PM

There isn't any single feature that a MMORPG needs. Just a good time.

A better approach is rules of thumb:

"If you are going to have different races, make them look really different in profile."
"Let me customize the things that matter (equipment, colors, etc) rather than my eyebrow width."
"Let me differentiate my character in some meaningful way."
etc etc

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
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