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Topic: Hunter Crap (Read 6995 times)
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Merusk
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Rather than continue to foul the 'warrior crap' thread with many derails. Here goes. :-D Hunters who use anything other than steady shot make me cry, because they obviously have MUCH slower bows than my poor 2.8s bow or twitch reflexes from hell.
My entire life is Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot - Autoshot - Steady Shot
The hunters in my guild do quite good dps, but they also work a hell of a lot at making it good. You might try throwing some arcane shots in there as well. You can fit it in after steady shots and before autoshots without extending any timers. The hunters in my guild also spend fortunes on consumables as well to increase their dps. Fel strength, agility, onslaught, mageblood, and more are all part of their set of normal buffs. Chugging mana pots as well to keep up with all their shots the entire fight is not out of the norm also. The result is that they can keep up with and sometimes exceed the rest of our damage dealers. You can only squeeze in the Arcane shot with a slow weapon -- else you bump the auto-shot. And chugging pots like fucking mad to "keep up with the rest of the damage dealers" is incredible bullshit UNLESS the other damage dealers are also chugging pots. Exactly, which was what I was alluding to. With a 2.8s bow and a 15% quiver, your attack speed becomes 2.59s. Subtract the 1.5s for steady shot and that gives you 1.09 seconds in which to cast that arcane shot. Subtract the GCD from hitting arcane shot and that gives you .09s remaining in an 'ideal' situation. That means you have to hit arcane shot within .09s of your strady shot firing, no more. This ALSO is assuming you have the reflexes to begin channeling SS IMMEDATELY after your autoshot fires. Thus my comment about twitch reflexes from hell. .09s to hit two buttons with exact timing. I've played with stopwatches plenty of times in the past to say Ha ha, no thanks I'll just spam SS on its own for now. You also have to consider all of that prior to the sheer mana cost of every other shot. Arcane shot? Sure it ignores armor, but it's subject to resists and immunities (rare, yes) and costs you 207 mana every shot with 5/5 efficiency. It also scales worse with AP than Steady. About the only thing I'll miss a steady for these days is a Scorpid. Reducing chance to hit of melee and ranged attacks on a mob by 5% and works on bosses too? You bet your ass I'll cast that. Maybe a multi-shot if there's several mobs together, but that's very situational. Now, given hunters have some utility which lowers their DPS -- but still, a MM-specced hunter should be in the same ballpark as a fire-specced mage, if they're both putting the same effort into it.
Ironically, hunters might get a little damage buff as time goes on.
What Paelos said in the other thread. We're not going to be outdamaging the squishies anymore, nor are we going to outdamage rogues. Blizz seems to want hunters solidly in the 4th place for DPS. Crits were what sent us up there in the old endgame. However, Crit apparently isn't seen as a hunter stat anymore so if you're PvEing I wouldn't sweat building it up too much. It's very apparent that we're not considered spike damage, we're steady consecutive DPS (but only if we can stand still, joy.). Crits just pull the mob anyway, and with as herky as FD has been lately I wonder if it's not an intentional "bug" that you have to stay down for a second or so. How's Viper at endgame? The mana regen on that should help -- it seems Blizzard's view is we're supposed to keep up the DPS after the mages keel over from lack of mana. I just don't see it happening, even with properly geared hunters.
Viper helps quite a bit so long as you haven't ignored your Int. From what I've seen many hunters are still trying to focus on pouring on the Agi to up their crit and AP and taking a hit on the Int stat as usual. I've tried to balance it all out, as it's obvious the intent is for us to take our Int a little more seriously. Thus my earlier comment about the 62 green from Zangramarsh being better than the blue you can get at 65. The same holds true for the Sonic Spear everyone goes so apeshit over. There's a quest in Netherstorm that yields the Jeweled Halberd and it's much better. 240 mana, 11 more AP and you only lose .35% of a crit. Since i'm at 15.04% as it is, no big deal to me. Toss in AOtV and that's also 4mp/5 on the green. A lot of the problems are folks just not understanding how very fundamentally hunters have changed. There's still people I come across using Aimed shot in the middle of fights. Stupid shit like wearing T2 at 70 because "it's got more crit, dude" and other such problems. The entire class has been so fucked with that it's really apparent whoever designed them originally has left, and Blizz is struggling to figure out exactly how they want them to work. Until that happens, and more people understand exactly what we're about right now it's just going to be a mess to be a hunter.
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Morat20
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Well, I've been moving to int and AP gear -- I'm just loathe to break up my 5/8 GS set (I love the pet bonuses, and I'm BM specced). I don't mind the notion that we're sustained steady DPS that catches up over a long fight, it's just I don't see it happening.
We still run out of mana too quick, and auto-shot just doesn't do it. That might be poorly geared end-game hunters (as you alluded too), but I suspect that's not entirely where Blizzard wants it to be. I suspect that sooner or later there's either going to be some changes to steady shot and arcane shot (probably timers and a bit of mana adjustment) to allow for a better rotation and slightly less mana use.
Mind you, I'm going off of what our level 70 hunters are saying -- I'm still like 61. (I've had a lot of homework. Fucking Master's program.)
For the sort of job we seem to have, we should be able to keep up auto-steady-auto-arcane-auto-steady (or something similiar) up for an entire boss fight, with Viper up and proper gear.
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Trouble
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You'll be ditching your GS very soon, no doubt about.
Someone in the other thread commented in response to my post that hunters need to pop all those consumables just to get to the level of everyone else...that's not entirely true. In the raids I run most people are running with at least the basic set of relatively cheap consumables. To be totally honest, the hunter dps has simply not been that bad. I know a lot of people complain but I see plenty good dps from them. Sure they can't top the fury warrior and the rogues on melee friendly fights, but they come close enough to be of value, and with so much melee unfriendly stuff hunters definitely get their share of the spotlight.
So many people think of hunters as button mashing monkeys that just have to turn on auto-shot to do decent dps but it's not true. I've seen really good hunters that can push their dps very high compared to others that should be able to do relatively the same amount. Gear choices as well as twitch ability and knowledge of how to get every ounce of dps out of their abilities is the only thing I can guess that makes the difference.
I only contend these things because I've seen some really good hunters, and I know it's not because the rest of the dpsers in my guild suck. We have a lot of really good players and I've seen the dps that a good hunter can put out. I will definitely agree that he probably has to put a decent amount more work into getting that dps, but the fact remains that it is doable.
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Merusk
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I haven't had a mana problem in any 5-man when I run viper. Of course, as I said I'm exclusively using Steady, because Arcane just doesn't scale well. Right now I've got 1687RAP when running viper and TSA only self-buffed. Steady shot does 656 on tooltip and arcane does 610. However, arcane costs 207 mana and steady costs 99. So twice as much mana for less damage if you're bothering with arcane for anything other than "I need to get a shot of RIGHT NOW" or while on the move. Other relevant stats are 356agi 228 int. I've got 96mp/5 with my gear and Viper running. Since Steady costs me 99 mana and arcane costs 207, that's yet another reason I'm not going to run out any time soon. The only time I begin to get low is if I'm having to drop a lot of immo/ explosive traps which isn't often. Now then, everything I speak of comes as a MM hunter. Were I beast I'd definatly do something like miss a steady for a "Kill" command. Beast pets will do a lot more damage than mine with it's whopping 13 points in the tree. As it is I only use kill when soloing, because it means I've gotten a crit and the pet needs the extra aggro so I don't pull the mob off. Now the one thing I need to do is update my swstats and my damage meters so I know how I sit vs other people. I've been lazy about it and just haven't cared enough. I do know that it FEELS like I'm doing less damage than other people, but I need something more concrete. Just based on what I've seen, though, I'm in agreement that we need a bit of a buff, but it's not going to happen until or unless people adjust for the new state of the class. Far, far too many people are still playing it like it was for the last 2 years and it's just not that class anymore. As to gear: Here's Mine. Ctprofiles is in error on some of the compiled stats, but it's accurate for all the equipment stats. My actual HP are 5298 and 6253 mana. Int/ Agi/ AP are as I listed above. Most of my gear is actually quested/ world drops at this point. Still working on picking up some dungeon set 2 stuff, particularly for the 2-piece beast master bonus. (Yay -4s to trap cooldowns). I know a few other people holding on to GS/ DS for the item bonuses. It makes sense as a BM hunter, but I gave it up really quickly in favor of stuff that aimed towards the newer stat distribution. Perhaps if I'd had T3 or more than 3 of the lousy pieces of DS I'd have held on to it longer, but meh. In the end holding on to it too long just gimps yourself, yet I've seen L70s on the boards talking about how they haven't replaced their full HWL/ GM gear. It is to laugh. Here is where I'd be if I'd kept all the GM gear WITH the uber enchants of the time. Only 5% more crit and a lot less RAP and mana.
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Morat20
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For right now, I simply haven't found anything -- still low level. I love, love, LOVE being BM specced and hope it holds up on raids. I've had guild mages hassling me to come along on instance runs, because Ferocious Inspiration makes them happy campers.
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Merusk
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So many people think of hunters as button mashing monkeys that just have to turn on auto-shot to do decent dps but it's not true. I've seen really good hunters that can push their dps very high compared to others that should be able to do relatively the same amount. Gear choices as well as twitch ability and knowledge of how to get every ounce of dps out of their abilities is the only thing I can guess that makes the difference.
I only contend these things because I've seen some really good hunters, and I know it's not because the rest of the dpsers in my guild suck. We have a lot of really good players and I've seen the dps that a good hunter can put out. I will definitely agree that he probably has to put a decent amount more work into getting that dps, but the fact remains that it is doable.
This was true in the past, No dobut at all about that. It remains to be seen what it takes to really push the class right now. For the various reasons I mentioned above, the mechanics have taken a LOT of the twitch out of the class. There's been several posts on the Hunter forums about exactly this as formerly uber hunters got disguted and quit. Hunters really ARE a lot easier to play right now, and don't require as much skill as they once did. This is, IMO, unfortunate and is also another reason they aren't giving us the ability to push out the kind of DPS we once did. Right now it's all consumables, gear, and keeping up that steady shot. Really the class is getting a lot more boring than it has been and I'm thinking of going back to the priest for a bit. Staring at health bars sucks, but at least it still takes a modicum of skill to heal well.
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Merusk
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Now, given hunters have some utility which lowers their DPS -- but still, a MM-specced hunter should be in the same ballpark as a fire-specced mage, if they're both putting the same effort into it.
Seriously, I don't want to burst your bubble here, but that's never going to happen in a million years unless you have a very large ballpark. Fire mages are glass cannons with no real aggro dump. Hunters are pulling masters with feign death and leather armor and auras. I know they both do DPS in raids, but putting them up near fire mages would be horribly unbalanced. Fire mages dump it all at once -- hunters are supposed to even out over long fights. It's not happening, is the problem. Hunters DPS is simply too low and even with Viper and int gear, our mana pools suck too much. We simply cannot do enough DPS, over the long run, to keep up with any other DPS class. We should be in the same ballpark over a long fight, and fire-specs should fucking roast us at quick ones. Pulling masters is fucking useless. You need one fucking hunter for virtually any pull. Hunters are supposed to be high, steady DPS with versatility. I don't mind coming in third behind fire-specced mages and rogues, but we're coming in so far behind that we're not in even a very large ballpark. Yeah, not to mention most fights aren't long enough that we could ever match the DPS over the long term. Additionally, Mages have a LOT of tricks to keep them from going OOM, since that's been their largest bitch for the last 2 years. Evocation, mana gems, potions and talents, all aimed at keeping them casting for the duration. This is why you're seeing the uber min/maxers just plain not taking hunters on Khara runs. Misdirection? Just have the tank pull in the first place. Raid-wide aggro means feign pulling is useless outside of trash, and anyone with a brain can pull trash. There's no pulls that require an instant-shot due to timing/ pathing issues, so there's no pulling that hunters really excel at.
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Paelos
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I agree with your points, but Blizzard isn't going to do much about it, and I have a theory why. There are just too many hunters running around, and that's the main issue. The reason you see hunters complaining is they are fucking everywhere and nobody can fit that many of them into raids. I mean shit, there's 10 spots in karazhan and 9 classes, you think they are doubling up on hunters? Hell no, it doesn't make any sense. It doesn't even make that much sense to double up on mages in there considering sheeps are worthless.
Personally, if I'm Blizzard I wouldn't touch the class with a ten foot pole because it's ridiculous to fine-tune for both pvp and pve. Pet classes also attract the most people, and they have the least utility in raiding. It's fundamentally screwed up and I don't see it ever really getting better for the min/maxers. But really, why would you care? Were guilds going nuts about hunters before? I don't think they were, but they still took them along because you had plenty of spots and you needed traps, dps, auras, etc. I don't see it being any different now, and I'll take a smart hunter over a bitchy mage in my raid any day of the week. Hard to find a gaggle of smart ones though.
Hell, I think DPS warriors have it worse than hunters because there is even less of reason to work them into a 10 man, but then again I don't think they should be raiding at all. All their good gear is in pvp.
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Righ
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Yeah, I said that before somewhere. Overpopulated classes don't get buffs, and underpopulated classes don't get nerfs. There are exceptions to the rule, but overall, if you want to enjoy the greatest number of class improvements, pick the class that the least people are playing overall.
Right now hunters are utter crap to play. Want the highest DPS you can get? Spend a few seconds making a macro to trigger both your steady shot and auto shot:
#showtooltip Steady Shot /castsequence Steady Shot(Rank 1), Auto Shot
Add whatever mana-inefficient shots you like to the castsequence as weapon speed allows. Now hit the key as fast as you can. Bored yet? Assign the keypress on your programmable keypad and press it once to start, once to stop.
Hunters aren't really a great DPS class any more, and they certainly aren't fun to play as one. With misdirect pulls, combat traps, careful use of pet aggro, etc. they can be more useful than that in a group. Unfortunately most groups are trying to tank, spank and heal their way to the 25-man content, and hunters are rather underutilized.
And then there's the drops. Itemization for hunters is terrible. If you get a bunch of level 70 blue gear, socket it up with AP heavy blue quality gems, you'll be running around a 10% increase in DPS over your level 60 DPS character with all its glorious crit. Which would suck less if all the other classes hadn't left you behind. On the plus side, you're better off now that you will be after the next patch. The 'item value' of sockets is going up, so stats on all socketed gear is going down.
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Chenghiz
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Has anyone compared the DPS output from deep Survival versus deep Marksmanship?
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Merusk
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Has anyone compared the DPS output from deep Survival versus deep Marksmanship?
Several folks on the pub boards have, but I haven't looked too closely at it. For personal DPS - which is what most folks care most about - it's horrible. Survival has far, far too much "% chance off of a crit" stuff in it to ever output much DPS. However, it has several nice raid-wide buffs, but there's no good way to evaluate what those bring, since it's far too dependant on other people and your raid's make-up. Righ's got a good point on the population boost/ nefage, but that doesn't account for the recent druid nerfs, or that warlocks remain untouched. It's a pretty good rule of thumb tho, I'll agree. Particularly when you look at census crap (Poor Horde 12% BE?) Ugh hunter itemization. Yet another thorn in the side. So many of the "good hunter items" are good under old mechanics, not new.  I still love the class, and like my utility in 5-mans, but I can't help but think I'm holding the group back every time I'm in a dungeon.
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Chenghiz
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The 'item value' of sockets is going up, so stats on all socketed gear is going down. Not true. The ‘cost’ of sockets on an item currently scales slightly with item quality, meaning the higher the quality an item the more a socket will account for. In an upcoming content patch though we’re standardizing the cost of sockets on high end items to match the lower end items. This in turn directly results in a base stat increase for the higher quality items, which will be seen in that same patch.
Our item designers are also going to be taking passes on all expansion raid sets and other additional changes may be seen in upcoming patches. It’s not our intention for higher tiers of raid armor to be worse or side-grades to previous sets. While in some cases they may not always have the specific stat that some may prefer the intent is that the overall item quality is indeed higher with each new raid tier.
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Morfiend
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wants a greif tittle
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RARWRRWWRR
DIE HUNTERS!!!!!! GRRRAARRRARRRR!!!!!!
Ok, sorry. That was just the rogue in me talking.
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Righ
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The 'item value' of sockets is going up, so stats on all socketed gear is going down. Not true. 
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Merusk
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That's just cuz it was a truly "good" hunter item. If it were good for Shammys it would have been buffed or somesuch. :-D
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Sky
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Arg! Fix hunters before I come back to play BC! :)
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Trouble
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That item specifically may have been nerfed and if it was it's because it was overbudget. In general, higher end items with sockets (like tier 4) will see an increase in stats.
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Xanthippe
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That buff there after that patch and before TBC was pretty nice, when hunters were briefly OP.
Now, though, we're back to UP.
I haven't been able to figure out what I'm doing. Between equipment being confusing and still being BM specced (which I hate for pvp but love for farming), I'm an easy mark for honor right now. I just don't know how to pvp with BM. I need to get back into the BGs and practice, I guess.
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Flood
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Merusk
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Yeah, that's what Righ mentioned above, and follows the same logic as I was talking about. It just means you don't have to pay ANY attention at all when playing a hunter, not that the class isn't borked.
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Threash
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For right now, I simply haven't found anything -- still low level. I love, love, LOVE being BM specced and hope it holds up on raids. I've had guild mages hassling me to come along on instance runs, because Ferocious Inspiration makes them happy campers.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but its simply not viable, the pet dies entirely too easily on raids and takes way too much of your dps with it to be able to keep up. As an offtank, maybe. As a dpser you will be severely dissapointed. A bm hunter with his pet WILL outdamage either marks or survival though, most bosses just won't allow you the chance.
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I am the .00000001428%
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Morat20
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For right now, I simply haven't found anything -- still low level. I love, love, LOVE being BM specced and hope it holds up on raids. I've had guild mages hassling me to come along on instance runs, because Ferocious Inspiration makes them happy campers.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but its simply not viable, the pet dies entirely too easily on raids and takes way too much of your dps with it to be able to keep up. As an offtank, maybe. As a dpser you will be severely dissapointed. A bm hunter with his pet WILL outdamage either marks or survival though, most bosses just won't allow you the chance. What about Warp Stalkers/Hunters? I hear those warp to the back of a mob, and most Boss AoE's are arc-based. (I rarely use my pet on bosses in raids, and never as tank).
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Chenghiz
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Yeah the warp stalkers teleport to the back and a lot of the bosses in heroic mode are getting their aoe cleaves limited to the front arc, so that might be viable.
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Morat20
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Yeah the warp stalkers teleport to the back and a lot of the bosses in heroic mode are getting their aoe cleaves limited to the front arc, so that might be viable.
I hope Blizzard will, sooner or later, add some pet behavior tweaks. Even "Attack from behind" or "Stay within 30 yards of owner when in defensive mode" would be nice.
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Righ
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"Run back to me when at 30% health"
"Attack anything that attacks that healer"
"Path the longest route down to where I jumped, picking up all the monsters along the way"
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The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
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MrHat
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Out of the frying pan, into the fire.
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Heh, like the Gambit system in FFXII.
If they do it, make sure they give the option to shaman's totems too.
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Threash
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The funniest thing is theres already something like that in game, your pet will not break your CC. Your CC... everyone elses is still fair game.
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I am the .00000001428%
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Morat20
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Heh, like the Gambit system in FFXII.
If they do it, make sure they give the option to shaman's totems too.
Shouldn't be that hard -- it'd be client-side scripting, and not really much that their own UI doesn't allow you to mod. As for not breaking your own CC -- that's a very new fix, I think the last patch before 2.0 introduced that. They still have to allow others to break CC -- else how could the pullers break a sheep or whatnot when it was it's turn to die?
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Paelos
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"Run back to me when at 30% health"
"Attack anything that attacks that healer"
"Path the longest route down to where I jumped, picking up all the monsters along the way"
I'd like a "follow that guy" command for imps. My warlocks are idiots about that buff.
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MisterNoisy
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Heh, like the Gambit system in FFXII.
If they do it, make sure they give the option to shaman's totems too.
Shouldn't be that hard -- it'd be client-side scripting, and not really much that their own UI doesn't allow you to mod. As for not breaking your own CC -- that's a very new fix, I think the last patch before 2.0 introduced that. They still have to allow others to break CC -- else how could the pullers break a sheep or whatnot when it was it's turn to die? Or traps. I'd kill for groupmates in my 5-mans that'd let trapped mobs stay that way - though I suppose it's much easier to say 'hunter traps are worthless' if you're AoEing/cleaving on top of them every single motherfuckin pull, I guess. Especially when I just stopped shooting to run in and re-trap a mob when it got loose. That said, i've pretty much given up on the hunter toon and will prolly be playing my mage. I just can't get into the new boring as fuck 2-click rotatiion, despite the fact that hunters' newfound gimpiiness re: dps brings their other abilities (pet OTing if clothies get aggroed, traps, misdirection pulls) to the fore... :P Then again, who am I kidding - bring a mage.
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« Last Edit: February 28, 2007, 08:57:44 PM by MisterNoisy »
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XBL GT: Mister Noisy PSN: MisterNoisy Steam UID: MisterNoisy
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