TBS/RTS Advice?

[CmdrSlack]

So I enjoy games in the vein of Civ and Rise of Nations, etc. 

I was at the store the other day and noticed that both Civ 4 and AoE III are relatively cheap now.  AoE II Gold was about twenty bucks.  I will be doing a ton of air travel in the next couple of months, so I've been looking for something to play while on the plane and at hotels, etc.   I hate MMO gaming on this laptop, largely because I don't want to lug around a spare keyboard or USB numpad (I use the numpad for my movement controls in CoH) and a mouse as well. 

So yeah.  What's the sucks to rocks ratio for both Civ 4 and AoE III?  I've read reviews already, but those are pretty worthless since most of them were on mass market websites....I have no idea how 90% of the games that come out get at least 85%.

ETA -- Is there a different RTS/TBS game that I should be looking at?

[Yoru]

Personally I enjoyed Civ4 a lot; it felt like an improved back-to-basics approach that was far better balanced than the trainwreck I considered Civ3 to be. It's very pretty and the new mechanics aren't horribly overpowered, in general. (Religion, though, is a big addition and substantially changes diplomacy.)

I don't know about the current patchlevel but I did have issues where the AI would sometimes just go batshit crazy and wardec me from 7 sides at once.

AOE3 I didn't much care for, but I never tried it multiplayer, which is what I liked the most about AOE2.

[Baldrake]

I haven't played AoE III, but I absolutely loved Civ 4. The game is deep, allows many different strategies, and does a good job of balancing detail with micromanagement. The only negative is that multiplayer, being turn-based, leads to god-awfully long games. At the time, I recall the reviews for AoE III being a little tepid.

I've been enjoying Medieval 2: Total War as well. It combines turn-based campaign with RTS-like battles. Pretty heavy on the graphics requirements though. If you want cheaper, Rome: Total War is a very similar game.

[CmdrSlack]

I'm not super interested in multiplayer, largely because I don't really know anyone else to get into a multiplayer game with.  I'd hate to play random strangers and get owned.  At least getting owned by friends is easier to accept. 

I may just be forced to go snag Civ 4 the day before I leave for my first trip.  Getting it earlier means I won't have the shit done that needs doing before then.  Cheap isn't necessarily a major factor, because if I get Civ 4, I may buy the expansion for it as well.  Basically, I'm willing to pay full price if I can be relatively assured that it won't suck.  Otherwise,  it's bargain bin all the way.  The beauty of quitting smoking is that I now have more spare money for things like bargain bin games.

[Raging Turtle]

Europa Universalis III is out now, and I'm digging it a lot - it's very much a historical sandbox, and in my opinion makes Civ 4 seems shallow.  People with a little less EU3 fanboi in them than me might want to wait for one more patch, though (should be soon, as the last one was 3-4 weeks ago).

[Sky]

Meh. I didn't care much for Civ 4. There was no reason to take it into 3d, given what they did. Zooming out to a globe view was the only thing I liked, I thought the units looked crappy, the terrain looks crappy, etc. AoE 3 looks purty, I don't like RTS but I might buy that in a Gold package at some point. The Age of series always had decent terrain and units, really showing how utterly shitty Civ's stuff is this time around.

[schild]

AOE2 or Rise of Nations.

[naum]

Meh. I didn't care much for Civ 4. There was no reason to take it into 3d, given what they did. Zooming out to a globe view was the only thing I liked, I thought the units looked crappy, the terrain looks crappy, etc. AoE 3 looks purty…

You know, I've installed and wiped Civ IV off my HD twice now… …tried to get into the spirit of it, but it just doesn't grab me, and I totally agree with these thoughts… …the globe deal is really cool, but I hate the perspective and the zoom levels provided are butt ugly. And as far as gameplay goes, not much was really added. I keep thinking that I was cold to Civ 3 at first, but warmed up to it, and really grew to like the borders + strategic resource features. Of course, it took a couple of years and a half dozen patches to get the game to a decent playable state that should have been in effect at game release time.

AOE 3 does look purty, but my click-fu not so strong these days… …still, it makes WCIII look like something from 80's arcade days…

For TBS, of course, all offerings pale in comparison to Dominions 3, the greatest TBS ever!

Some reviews:

http://flashofsteel.com/index.php/2007/01/05/on-site-review-dominions-3-the-awakening/
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/dominions3/review.html?sid=6163352
http://gamerdad.com/detail.cfm?itemID=3512
http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/article.asp?CIID=69933
http://bovineconspiracy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=534&Itemid=42

[CmdrSlack]

Rise of Nations

Got it, enjoyed it.  I was thinking about Rise of Legends or whatever the sequel title was, but the demo was a bit "meh" I thought. 

The RTS type games still give you the ability to pause and enter commands in SP mode, right?  That's my only beef with teh whole RTS vs. TBS distinction, I can never quite get it right.

EDIT -- clarity.

EDIT 2 -- Based on Schild's input and the price point it's now between AOE2 Gold and Civ 4 + the expansion.   Thoughts?

[schild]

Rise of Legends sucks.

AOE2 is where it's at.

Civ 4 did not blow my hair back like I expected.

[Baldrake]

Have you played the Civ games before? If not, get Civ 4.

Otherwise, which do you feel most like? Twitch or strategy?

[Zar]

Having not played any Civ games since the original, I thought Civ 4 was good times.  I stayed up til 4-5 in the morning on more than one occasion with it.  Yeah, I guess the 3D graphics weren't exactly necessary, but I didn't feel that they detracted from anything either.  I appreciated that it was much deeper than the last Civ I played.  Of course, YMMV.

I'm not a big fan of RTS games, but I do like Medieval: Total War 2's implementation of it.  Most of the game plays as Civ-light, then you get to bash people up close in battles.  Make sure you get all the patches for it though, as there were (and still are some) some big ol' bugs in there that seriously unbalance combat in 1.0.  Still fun though.

Other TBS games I've been tinkering with lately are slightly older: Europa Universalis 2 (EU3 wouldn't run on my machine) for a very, very deep and complex nation-building game; also finally got around to giving Galactic Civilizations 2 a try, which is also a blast.  It's MoO3 done right.  Definitely give it a shot if you're at all into 4x space games.

[Big Gulp]

I'd also recommend either Medieval 2 or Rome.  I hate RTS, but love RTS when it's all about battle formations, city taking, and massive barrages of ancient artillery.  The turn based campaign map is just deep enough to give you control over your empire and get a good grasp of where to deploy your forces.

[Margalis]

Didn't a new Gal Civ game just come out?

I think I saw a very glowing review on Gamespy (?).

[Zar]

Didn't a new Gal Civ game just come out?

I think I saw a very glowing review on Gamespy (?).

Yeah, it's an expansion for Gal Civ 2.  It's supposed to add quite a bit, and I'm sure I'll pick it up sometime here.

[Trippy]

Depending on how good your laptop GPU is you may want to give the Relic RTSes -- Company of Heroes and Dawn of War (plus expansions) -- a try.

[stray]

Hey! An excuse for me to mention Homeworld.. :)

[Strazos]

Homeworld was HARD.

Also, can I pimp the Kohan series, just because?

[Stormwaltz]

Also, can I pimp the Kohan series, just because?

I second that. The only straight RTS (not counting TW) that never drove me to apoplectic rage. Everything else I've tried (WC, C&C) was too RT, not enough S.

[Merusk]

Civ IV was a great game and it felt like a throwback to CivII w/ some SMAC bits included rather than an extension of CivIII. I liked it a lot, and the Warlords expansion added some nice new features and wonders.   One bad thing I will say about it, however, is that starting off as a Philosophical leader is a bit overpowered.  Religion is a very powerful tool economically and politically, and Philo leaders get a big boost to the point they're always the first to discover them and get the bonuses inherent in that.

Gal Civ II was a great game, and I just DL'd the expansion and will be playing it shortly here.  The base game had a feeling of being the true successor to MOO, even if you can't do strategic combat.  Ship Design, racial bonuses, etc.  The expansion listed some nice new features like spies, research treaties and extensive AI tweaks.  If you're going to give it a whirl get the 'gold edition' as I can't recommend playing the base game just for the streamlining of the Tech Tree.  It was bloated merely for the sake of 'stretching out' the tree before. They've consolodated it in the expansion.

[Flood]

If you've got AOE2 you already have the best of that line up.  AOE3 is more eye candy less substance.  Rise of Legends is RoN with different textures basically.

Civ4 is a great game, but with more of an empire building bent to it because there is no actual manual manipulation of forces engaging each other.  (Well sorta...you know what I mean)

If you want the absolute greatest ever RTS and like shooty frenetic death, then Dawn of War + expansions is the way to go.  Playing multi player versus strangers can be like running a cheese grater over your nutsack, but even the single play is great - and there are a few mods that increase the longevity even more.  You can get DoW Gold for like...30$ I think, which is the core game plus the first expansion.  Dark Crusade is the most recent expansion pack and you will probably have to pay full price for it, but it's completely worth it (2 new races etc).  Dawn of War is probably in my top ten of greatest games I've purchased, for re-playability, value, flavor, etc.

If you get DoW shoot me a PM or something I'd be glad to play online with ya, yadda yadda.

[schild]

Rise of Legends is NOT Rise of Nations with different textures.

[Vedi]

So yeah.  What's the sucks to rocks ratio for both Civ 4 and AoE III? 

They are not entirely comparable, but I think Civ 4 is the best in the series by a good margin, but that AoE III, while good, isn't as good as AoE II. It is true that Civ 4 is too graphically demanding for what it gives you, graphics-wise, but it is a very deep and fun game. There is probably no offline game I've played more that Civ 4 in the last five years. There are many ways to play it, many kinds of strategies to try, and until you get into the Emperor/Deity level games against the computer, there are lots of viable, well-balanced strategies. Multiplayer also works well (for the first time in the Civ series), but I recommend playing with friends. The dominant competitive strategies are often not particularly fun - they involve rushing and you never get to develop much.

I haven't tried the Warlords expansion yet, but I hear it is decent, although not a must.

[Ragnoros]

I'll second the recommendation of Warhammer:Dawn of War and/or WH:Dark Crusade. Winter Assault was a bit of a one step forward two steps back thing. DC gives you more races to play, but DoW has a better campaign story, if I had to pick one it would be DC. And if your lappy can run AoE3 Warhammer will be cake.

[WayAbvPar]

I'd also recommend either Medieval 2 or Rome.  I hate RTS, but love RTS when it's all about battle formations, city taking, and massive barrages of ancient artillery.  The turn based campaign map is just deep enough to give you control over your empire and get a good grasp of where to deploy your forces.

Agreed. I loathe 'true' RTS games, but the hybrid of TBS combined with RTS battles makes M2:TW a total fucking blast. Definitely a 'one more turn....' at 3 AM kind of game  :-D

[CmdrSlack]

So I ended up getting AOE II gold.  I've decided to get Civ 4 a bit later in the year...we'll see how long AOEII lasts me before I want a new game.

[Kitsune]

Dark Avatar is the name of the GalCiv 2 expansion, and it kicks hardcore ass; it really covered all of the bases separating the game from being what MoO3 should have been.  They have a Gal Civ II Gold on the shelves now with the base game and the expansion together for I think $40.  It's worth it if you like space empire sim games.

[CmdrSlack]

Dark Avatar is the name of the GalCiv 2 expansion, and it kicks hardcore ass; it really covered all of the bases separating the game from being what MoO3 should have been.  They have a Gal Civ II Gold on the shelves now with the base game and the expansion together for I think $40.  It's worth it if you like space empire sim games.

Maybe Civ 4 will have to wait....I've not played a good space empire sim since MOO in the computer lab of the men's honor's dorm freshman year of college....we also had XCom...man that was a great year of nerdy fun.

[Jade Falcon]

If you haven't grabbed it yet they have the gold version up for digital download at Stardock for $44.95.or download plus they ship you the cd's for the same price.There's no CD copy protection and their servers keep a record of your codes so you can download it later if you need too.

If you enjoyed MOO you'll like this.Only thing I don't like in the latest expantion is the espionage it's abit better then the original but can get annoying later when the AI starts spamming you with spies.

[Murgos]

EB Games near me had the gold box for $39.99.  If having disc's makes you a happier person (plus saving DL time).

[Strazos]

Yes, my GS has the gold box as well. I'm waiting on my tax return.

[Sky]

You can download it and have the disks sent, that's how I did galciv 1, I like to buy direct but I also like discs. I'd recommend GalCiv2 over Civ4, or maybe just get Civ3 Gold or whatever they call it. I always liked spearmen who could take out tank units. I figure if they've been using spears for 2000yrs, maybe they have some damned good tricks.

In other TBS/RTS news, I'm fuming at Medieval 2 for not having an acceptable 16:9 solution. It ends up being just a little too much vertical, so that when you mouse to the top or bottom of the screen it slides up an down. For instance, the UI is half-cut off on the bottom, but you mouse to the bottom of the screen and it slides up to show the full UI, cutting off the top of the screen. It's shitty. I could see limited 16:9 support in AAA games in 2003, but in 2007? Get a fucking clue. Oops, I ranted again /britney

[bhodikhan]

Every Total War game has never done widescreen right. Reading that their latest offering is still brain-dead in the widescreen department is just another reason to not buy it. There are too many widescreen monitors to ignore them these days.

[CmdrSlack]

Necro and all that.

I finally picked up GalCiv2 Gold.  Aside from an annoying crash bug playing the Dread Lords campaign with the Dark Avatar expansion, it's really sweet.  Sure, that game is more about the non-campaign stuff, but I kind of enjoy playing through campaigns that come with my strategy games.  It is definitely close to being like MOO.  And that's good enough for me, really.

[Strazos]

Yeah, I'm loving the game since I got it. The only time I really seem to run into trouble when playing random maps (I don't do campaigns) is in the early-middle phases of the game, where the AI starts to get ballsy before Ive decided to crank out military ships and tech.

Just for reference, pick up the Luck ability if you make a custom civ for the random maps. Getting a free max-size battlecruiser or two can be really fun, especially if you happen to be given one (via "discovering it") while you're low on forces. Just a single one of these ships can decimate entire fleets without breaking a sweat.



I just wish I had more control over the camera during fight scenes. I know they mean nothing, but I love watching my pew-pew.