LOTRO NDA has been lifted.

[Falconeer]

I can't believe how many people keep overrating WoW and WoW's polish.
Most of you are so bored (and with a reason) of dikus that you can't even try them for more than an hour. Still, you keep saying how they are not as polished, as good, as interesting, as colourful, as shiny, as fun as WoW.

I don't think LoTRO is so much better, save for the Lore and the Graphics, and considering that they spent on it probably a quarter of the WoW's budget, I'd say being a good clone is quite an chievement. But judge it from the first hour?

Is/was your first hour in WoW SO fun, so different? Oh really? Ah... then I understand.

[Quinton]

I don't think LoTRO is so much better, save for the Lore and the Graphics, and considering that they spent on it probably a quarter of the WoW's budget, I'd say a good clone is quite an chievement. But judge it from the first hour?

I've pretty much lost all interest in the "well it gets good after N hours" or "it's good in the endgame" style of design.  Do something to grab me in the first hour or two and make me want to keep playing. 

Is/was your first hour in WoW SO fun, so different? Really? Ah... then I understand.

My first hour in WoW was enough to keep me playing for a couple weeks on and off.  Eventually the lack of friends in game (most of my online gaming friends were still FFXI'ing and the handful I knew who played WoW were on 3-4 different servers) and the general art design just not doing much for me caused me to cancel.

I played WoW after launch so comparing on basis of "polish" may be a little unfair, but I generally thought the intro quests in the dwarf starting area (in WoW) were fun and reasonably well-written and amusing.

But, as I said, I'm not looking to play WoW (otherwise I'd be playing WoW!)

- Q

EDIT: clarifying *which* dwarven starting area

[Hound]

Landscapes were pretty, though I'd have preferred more green than brown.

I don't understand you guys. Maybe I am colorblind in the brown spectrum. Do you mean more green than this?

Yeah, I don't get this "eugh, it's so brown" bandwagon that seems to have trundled through on its way to the Darkfall thread.  I've never seen a more verdant area in an MMO than LoTRO's Shire.

same here, different areas have different looks. Lone lands is mostly brown, the Shire mostly green, Fornost is grey everywhere, Trollshaws reminds me of N Carolina in October ~ shrug~

[Trippy]

Seriously, who is the audience?  People tired of WoW that want the same thing with less polish?  Is there money in that?  Really?

Do not underestimate the number of LotR fanboys/girls out there.

[Falconeer]

Plus somebody said here multiple times that as soon as you get your budget back, MMOs are cash cows anyway.
How much did they spent on LoTRO (in house old engine...)?

[Quinton]

Seriously, who is the audience?  People tired of WoW that want the same thing with less polish?  Is there money in that?  Really?

Do not underestimate the number of LotR fanboys/girls out there.

I guess I'd buy that.  I get the impression that SWG sold quite a few boxes that way.

- Q

[ahoythematey]

I want Moria to be a dungeon so goddamn deep and complicated to navigate that I need to break out the fucking graphing pad and map that shit, oldschool wizardry-style, just to hope I make it out alive.  If this game can give me that, or something similar, it has me hooked.  I'm not too worried about the diku elements as long as they are passable(which this thread seems to indicate they are).

[eldaec]

I can't believe how many people keep overrating WoW and WoW's polish.

What they actually mean is 'it doesn't CTD much'.

[Ironwood]

I want Moria to be a dungeon so goddamn deep and complicated to navigate that I need to break out the fucking graphing pad and map that shit, oldschool wizardry-style, just to hope I make it out alive.  If this game can give me that, or something similar, it has me hooked.  I'm not too worried about the diku elements as long as they are passable(which this thread seems to indicate they are).

Did you ever see the Middle Earth Roleplaying Supplement to Moria ?  It was fucking huge and totally twisted.

I'd play any game that had that in it.

It'd be a 365 day instance.

[Endie]

I want Moria to be a dungeon so goddamn deep and complicated to navigate that I need to break out the fucking graphing pad and map that shit, oldschool wizardry-style, just to hope I make it out alive.  If this game can give me that, or something similar, it has me hooked.  I'm not too worried about the diku elements as long as they are passable(which this thread seems to indicate they are).

Did you ever see the Middle Earth Roleplaying Supplement to Moria ?  It was fucking huge and totally twisted.

I'd play any game that had that in it.

It'd be a 365 day instance.

I played that.  In line with the superfluosity of magic items in printed MERP adventures, by the end of it I had so many of Durin's items that, had he turned up at some point, he would have thought that he'd met himself.  Axe of Durin, shield of Durin, helm of Durin, socks of Durin...

But yes, the two expansions i already await with toddler-on-Christmas-Eve levels of anticipation are Mirkwood and Moria.

[Arthur_Parker]

It's easy to make jokes about these games and the people that play, LOTRO adds an extra level of funny.  However despite the flaws LOTRO does have a lot of content, A LOT, and even if they don't tackle the more serious issues of blandish combat and character customisation and long term monster advancement before release, they still will have a very solid and successful game.

Moria isn't in at release, however they might do it correctly, I think I remember a dev comment saying Moria could be an expansion just by itself.

If you take zones that are in the game, the shire is true to the ip as is Rivendell.  Seeing Weathertop in the distance is worth the walk to the lone lands.  The old forest is very true to the books as well, I got lost in there for hours, it's bloody annoying, really really incredibly annoying being lost in there, but it is true to the book and it's very well designed to be confusing.

To give you an idea of the amount of content, LOTRO beta happened when I had a lot of spare time (just started a new job and Mrs sleeping 12 hours a day), I leveled to 40 with about 10 days played, leveled to 43 again after a wipe, leveled from 30-44 after the next wipe.  I didn't spend any time crafting, yet I still didn't have time to complete any quests in the Elf/Dwarf or Shire zones, I didn't explore the great barrow instance in any detail, just a quick run through.  Didn't complete the Red maid, only got halfway through Fornost to two of the bosses, also avoided most of the main storyline instances.  Didn't have time for the instance in Misty Mounts, plus the raid instance isn't implemented there yet.

From memory LOTRO has about 1500 quests, sure a lot of them are the same kill boars crap but some are new and well done e.g. the Riddle series from Bilbo in Rivendell.  I'm not buying it because I'm busy in RL at the moment but I'm going to check it out when RL calms down a bit.

[Falconeer]

Meh, Arthur. Screenshot or it didn't happen.

You see what I did there? That's how far some of you stretched it (not you Arthur). So, to fix the above statement: "WoW or it didn't happen".

[Arthur_Parker]

I have a few hundred screenshots, not sure what you want me to prove though.  If the hidden forum here gets opened up you will see I said most of this already.

[Ironwood]

Don't open that hidden forum where we're all actively slagging off Falconeer.  That'd be hurtful.

[Falconeer]

I wasn't actively requesting you for any proof Arthur. I think we agree this time on what's good in LoTRO and what's not.
I just used your interesting post to point to those whom it doesn't matter anyway. It doesn't matter if you say and/or show what LoTRO does good. No matter what a new MMORPG brings, offer, sports, does, introduces, invents, is.
It's not WoW, so basically it's crap.
You point out lots of good things about LoTRO. Still, looks like it doesn't matter. "WoW does it better". That's what too many people are saying.

"WoW or it didn't happen" could be the short form for the widespread formula: "I don't know what you are talking about and I am not even interested, but I played it for about 15 minutes and I can safely say this is just another WoW clone so it's officially crap".

Well, I disagree with this behaviour. I play games like LoTRO more than the frst 10 minutes and I am interested in seeing what's better from other similar games (not just THE one), what's different and what's worst. As long as you keep playing games for 15 minutes expecting them to be somehow more addictive than WoW, you'll keep on throwing less than useful comments.


P.S: I am italian. I am used at being slagged off and basically immune.

[Slayerik]

I can't believe how many people keep overrating WoW and WoW's polish.
Most of you are so bored (and with a reason) of dikus that you can't even try them for more than an hour. Still, you keep saying how they are not as polished, as good, as interesting, as colourful, as shiny, as fun as WoW.

Aren't you playing Vanguard? Just curious if you are still leading that bandwagon as well.

EDIT: By bandwagon I meant anti-bandwagon. Sorry

[Venkman]

Yeah, I don't get this "eugh, it's so brown" bandwagon that seems to have trundled through on its way to the Darkfall thread

I may be the only one who uses it this way, but I use "brown" to connote bland realism. It's not technically brown in terms of the color, but it's basically a colored-gray, middle-of-the-road, uninspired, that sorta thing.

We're reacting to this in LoTRO for the same reason we did in EQ2: the more realism they strove for, the more their failure to do so becomes highlighted (whether in textures, animation, environment, etc). WoW covers a lot of faults through style alone. Nobody expects more. It's the same thing for CRPGs, many MMOs coming from the Far East, anything in the anime-style in the first place. Lots of people want to escape to fastastic worlds, not see a pale immitation of reality.

Most of you are so bored (and with a reason) of dikus that you can't even try them for more than an hour. Still, you keep saying how they are not as polished, as good, as interesting, as colourful, as shiny, as fun as WoW.

We've played LoTRO and VG in countless other games. We are still impressed with well-executed features (monster play, diplomacy, etc), but if the underlying game system is WoW, then it's hard to not reference the quality that Blizzard achieved. It matters that they had $80mil+ to achieve it when everyone else is lucky to get $30mil. But ultimately, when it comes time to pay a monthly fee to spent 10+ hours a week with a game, it's only the experience that matters.

Is LoTRO's experience more engaging than WoW? For some, yes. Maybe that Achievements book alone, for the collectors in all of us. But it's basically the same experience, with only the "some do like it" graphics difference and the recognition of named elements from Lore.

But be careful with assessing the value of that lore without accounting for the dozen or so Warcraft books out. Some of them are actually pretty good, if you're into the IP. At this point, I'm liking the books and game enough for them to collectively increase my enjoyment of both. And unlike LoTRO, the Warcraft lore is advancing through WoW, not locked in a SWG-esque temporal stasis. Players don't really have an impact on that, but it's enough to not be visiting places you know the future of (outside of Caverns of Time instances) to make one curious for that future.

That's not to slight Turbine nor SOE, as they do not have the freedoms with the IP that Blizzard/VUG does. But like the $80mil+ budget and the built in fanbois and the decade of RTS games and the general test-to-test-to-test approach they take in fun-development, it's just something else that makes WoW unique.

These are not just about games anymore. How can they be when the primary attractor of LoTRO is the lore defined decades ago? So when people say "brown" or "bland" it's because of the total offering, from game play to UI to conversations about it. Even VG was more "interesting" of a game if only because of the controversy that Brad himself is.

[Jayce]

You point out lots of good things about LoTRO. Still, looks like it doesn't matter. "WoW does it better". That's what too many people are saying.

I don't get the hate for WoW.  The basic fact (and others have pointed it out) is that WoW raised the bar for polish, intuitiveness of interface, immersiveness, etc.  Ever has it been that games get compared to their predecessors, and if they have something new to offer, they are lauded for it.  When EQ came out, people said "it's UO without the gankers!!!".  When DAOC came out, they said "it's EQ done right!".  When WoW came out, they said "it's DAOC done right!"*

Therefore, until WoW is not the dominant game, everyone is going to say of any new game (especially fantasy diku), "it's WoW done right/wrong/more boringly/less immersively/in Middle-Earth/on the moon".

To the topic, I did not play more than an afternoon of the beta, but it did strike me (like Morphiend and some others mentioned) that the interface was staggeringly like WoW's.  I mean, I expected some elements to be similar, since in the world of user interfaces, highway robbery is the most sincere form of flattery, but it looked to me like they copied it pixel for pixel.

I did see some innovative things, like the personalized quest instances, but it wasn't gripping enough to cause me to quit whatever game I am playing now.



*ridiculously simplified of course

[Arthur_Parker]

No matter what a new MMORPG brings, offer, sports, does, introduces, invents, is.
It's not WoW, so basically it's crap.
You point out lots of good things about LoTRO. Still, looks like it doesn't matter. "WoW does it better". That's what too many people are saying.

But something is crap if you don't like it.  I'm not trying to get anyone to play LOTRO, I'm just pointing out it has a surprising amount of good points considering 1. It's Turbine and 2. It's a fairly restrictive license.  

Personally, I enjoyed it a lot for 3 months, but if you don't like WoW or expect LOTRO to be better than WoW you are in for disappointment.

[Endie]

...And unlike LoTRO, the Warcraft lore is advancing through WoW, not locked in a SWG-esque temporal stasis. Players don't really have an impact on that, but it's enough to not be visiting places you know the future of (outside of Caverns of Time instances) to make one curious for that future.

As regards temporal stasis, Turbine have repeatedly claimed that they'll advance the timeline in later regions somehow (presumably, simply in the same sort of way you meet people in WoW in later zones and they want new stuff done).

Of course, the future (at least up to the first few years of the Fourth Age) is pretty fixed for a lot of places.  But there is still flexibility.  I don't read any of the "notes on pixies Tolkien made when on the toilet at age 14" stuff his son endlessly churns out, but there is a lot of openness for 3/4 of the continent, for starters.  And there are only very broad brushstrokes regarding what happens in large areas to the east or south, even in the late Third Age.

MERP had a license and yet had a huge amount of flexibility on what went where, and what happened in places like the Trollshaws, southern Mirkwood or the bulk of the Misty Mountains, even during the book timelines.  It's a big world: they can let stuff happen.  And it'll be no more or less influenced by player actions than WoW (which is to say it won't be).

[Nebu]

My favorite part of the Tolkein lore was when Frodo and Aragorn went into the field and killed 6 wolves for a quest.  The moment they dinged level 3 was glorious. 

If they're going to make a game about such an epic tale, at least get rid of the trash mobs and make encounters rich and meaningful.  Grinding yard trash for "ding gratz" really ruins this whole experience.  At least they could have made it like CoH and had you kill wave after wave of orcs trying to assault some castle.  So many opportunities to turn IP this into a rich and engrossing experience and they take the path of producing diku_clone_1873.  Turbine is capable of so much more.   

[tazelbain]

Turbine is capable of so much more.   

No, they are not.  They are no talent hacks.  AC1 was a fluke and a mild success at best.

[Nebu]

No, they are not.  They are no talent hacks AC1 was a fluke and a mid success at best.

I saw flashes of brilliance in AC1.  Believe it or not, there were times in AC2 that I had fun as well.  If they've learned anything from that, then they could do more than make a pretty clone.  I'm guessing that innovation is too big a financial risk for most companies to go after. 

[Endie]

My favorite part of the Tolkein lore was when Frodo and Aragorn went into the field and killed 6 wolves for a quest.  The moment they dinged level 3 was glorious. 

Oh, we've all made that joke.  Fun, though.  But the reason it's easy to parody LOTR with MMO cliches is that those cliches are bastardised great-grandchildren of the original, Tolkien-spawned tropes.

[Arthur_Parker]

My favorite part of the Tolkein lore was when Frodo and Aragorn went into the field and killed 6 wolves for a quest.  The moment they dinged level 3 was glorious. 

If they're going to make a game about such an epic tale, at least get rid of the trash mobs and make encounters rich and meaningful.  Grinding yard trash for "ding gratz" really ruins this whole experience.  At least they could have made it like CoH and had you kill wave after wave of orcs trying to assault some castle.  So many opportunities to turn IP this into a rich and engrossing experience and they take the path of producing diku_clone_1873.  Turbine is capable of so much more.   

Tresslebridge is a town in north downs that has an epic quest to defend it from a few waves of orc's, it spawns a separate instance of the entire town to do it.  There's plenty of castle capture in monster play as well, mind you, there's not much else to do in monsterplay.  I'll agree about the mobs though, it's especially annoying to see level 42 flies but at least the last couple of fly quests are restricted to kill 10.  I have zero problem with people thinking LOTRO sucks, really doesn't bother me as I don't have any shares in Turbine.  Just be aware that if it didn't grab your interest enough to play past the early levels then you have seen very little of the actual game.

[Nebu]

2) I don't feel like a hero.  I feel like a citizen with an attitude.  Kill some boars, kill some spiders, or fedEx this for me.  It's an old system, but it could really be used to generate some sense of heroism.

I played D&D on paper back in the 70's and noone ever showed up to roll a character and kill some snakes and ants for phat lewtz.  I'm just astounded by the fact that someone would spend the money for such a fantastic license and make another uninspired PvE grindfest.  I shouldn't be surprised by it... and I'm really not.  I just hoped for more.

[Nebu]

I have zero problem with people thinking LOTRO sucks, really doesn't bother me as I don't have any shares in Turbine.  Just be aware that if it didn't grab your interest enough to play past the early levels then you have seen very little of the actual game.

I played 2 characters into the mid 20's, but I did it all solo.  Many of the fellowship quests were off limits to me as I didn't have anyone to group with.  I guess it's another example of not being able to enjoy content because my playstyle doesn't fit the genre. 

[WayAbvPar]

My favorite part of the Tolkein lore was when Frodo and Aragorn went into the field and killed 6 wolves for a quest.  The moment they dinged level 3 was glorious. 

Oh, we've all made that joke.  Fun, though.  But the reason it's easy to parody LOTR with MMO cliches is that those cliches are bastardised great-grandchildren of the original, Tolkien-spawned tropes.

Sounds like we will have to wait for an expansion for this to come to fruition.

[Jayce]

If they're going to make a game about such an epic tale, at least get rid of the trash mobs and make encounters rich and meaningful. 

You know, I've been thinking something along the same lines as this.  To those of us who love them, the LoTR books are so special, that I'm not sure I want the experience sullied by other players.  This might have worked as an epic single-player RPG, but I would rather not have my next read-through marred by memories of the time I camped Moria with "Lagolasss".

There's the trash mob angle, which Turbine could control and improve, but they can't control the hell that is other people.

[Arthur_Parker]

I have zero problem with people thinking LOTRO sucks, really doesn't bother me as I don't have any shares in Turbine.  Just be aware that if it didn't grab your interest enough to play past the early levels then you have seen very little of the actual game.

I played 2 characters into the mid 20's, but I did it all solo.  Many of the fellowship quests were off limits to me as I didn't have anyone to group with.  I guess it's another example of not being able to enjoy content because my playstyle doesn't fit the genre. 

There's another but different tresslebridge orc defend instance for the solo level 30 guardian quest, it's in a different area across the bridge. I soloed most of the time and thought the balance between solo and group was pretty good.  It's just not a forced grouping game, as long as you don't mind skipping the epic storyline or doing it when when + a few levels.  You might have enjoyed it more post 40 or you might still have hated it. There's no doubt the game's got problems as I recall thinking to myself at level 43, combat is pretty fun now, that point should have come far far sooner.

[Venkman]

As regards temporal stasis, Turbine have repeatedly claimed that they'll advance the timeline in later regions somehow (presumably, simply in the same sort of way you meet people in WoW in later zones and they want new stuff done).

This is true, and they'll probably pull it off. But it's still just adding detail to a timeline established, ala SWG.

Honestly, that's fine. If you like the lore, added detail (as long as its self-consistent) is icing on the cake of enjoyment, like me reading SW or Warcraft books to complement my enjoyment of executed content in other forms. That's the other way to design new product and games really. You can always make a game and try to sell it. But it's just easier to make a game that is an extension of an IP executed in that or other mediums. It's a built-in fanbase, the entire premise for LoTRO really, and coming with more freedoms than DDO did (because that "lore" was equal parts game mechanic and story).

I'm just astounded by the fact that someone would spend the money for such a fantastic license and make another uninspired PvE grindfest

It's very tricky really. How could you not make an MMO LoTR game without it being diku? Given the roots of this genre, LoTRO is probably what most people would expect. And if it didn't deliver against that expectation, it's SWG (or DDO, in a smaller sense).

That doesn't mean all licenses must be diku. It's just that LoTR ultimately spawned diku and the ties are just probably too hard to break. Veterans expect it and diku has already been proven to be effective at attracting and keeps newbs to the genre.

[Nebu]

That doesn't mean all licenses must be diku. It's just that LoTR ultimately spawned diku and the ties are just probably too hard to break. Veterans expect it and diku has already been proven to be effective at attracting and keeps newbs to the genre.

I guess that's the rub.  The IP represents pretty much the origins of P&P gaming that spawned MUDs that spawned MMOG's.  Now it's going to belong to a game that won't even come to be the best example of the genre.  Expecting the pioneer to be the pioneer again is too much to ask, especially where there's a bottom line involved. 

[Nija]

You know, I've been thinking something along the same lines as this.  To those of us who love them, the LoTR books are so special, that I'm not sure I want the experience sullied by other players. 

This is the reason that many people, myself included, have said that the only license worse than Star Wars is Lord of the Rings. (When talking about mass multiplayer games.)

[HaemishM]

I can't believe how many people keep overrating WoW and WoW's polish.

WoW was also fun. This was not.

Is/was your first hour in WoW SO fun, so different? Oh really? Ah... then I understand.

Yes, it was. My first hour in WoW was as a Tauren Warrior, and the Rage meter, as well as the style of the race was interesting. In addition, the combat felt a little more engaging.

In LotRO, I could barely be arsed enough to hit my hotkeys in combat. It was just BORING.

[Rasix]

In LotRO, I could barely be arsed enough to hit my hotkeys in combat. It was just BORING.

This was probably the most prevalent feedback given during our alpha/beta testing.  The pace of the combat was just off.

If you screw up combat pacing, your game is going to have trouble. A majority of your activities in these games is still combat.