Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 29, 2024, 05:41:43 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
we're back, baby
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: Station Exchange is One Year Old 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: [1] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Station Exchange is One Year Old  (Read 10978 times)
Yegolev
Moderator
Posts: 24440

2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST


WWW
on: February 07, 2007, 02:43:01 PM

John Smedley is interviewed by Michael Zenke at Gamasutra about how Station Exchange is working out.
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20070207/zenke_01.shtml

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Raph
Developers
Posts: 1472

Title delayed while we "find the fun."


WWW
Reply #1 on: February 07, 2007, 04:29:31 PM

More than that, there's a whole whitepaper with stats. I blogged the highlights here:

http://www.raphkoster.com/2007/02/07/soe-whitepaper-on-station-exchange/
Venkman
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11536


Reply #2 on: February 07, 2007, 06:35:23 PM

Not sure what the surprise is here honestly. That people use it to keep up with friends is really the core of how RMTing came about in the first place. But the reality is that it's about buying pre-built characters. In a game like EQ2 (or WoW or GW or anything post DAoC), there's really little way to uber one's way to the top with gear. Fungi Tunics are long gone and even DAoC only has that one area where everyone AOE-pulls goblins with their Necros to PL newbs. The game mechanic in western-MMO is less conducive to item sales, so when the motivation is to keep up, characters are it. Even coin, which is the second most traded thing on SE servers can't buy one's way to the top. Sure probably helps with the collection quests though.

I think they made pretty good money considering this is only two servers. The players who bought basically spent another $11/mo on stuff, a fairly good ARPU.

That only 25% of the people on those two servers registered for this service is sorta odd though. I would have thought that the only people on SE servers would be those who went to actively use it. This could mean a greater acceptance for the legitimate version of the practice and pave the way to roll out to more servers. At least in the eyes of SOE.

All in all, nice to have some solid stats. I expect to see this get rolled out for other SOE games, maybe SWG, probably VG.
Margalis
Terracotta Army
Posts: 12335


Reply #3 on: February 07, 2007, 06:43:19 PM

I've said before, the most important good in MMORPGs is XP. Not items, not gold.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
damijin
Terracotta Army
Posts: 448


WWW
Reply #4 on: February 07, 2007, 06:55:52 PM

The customer service numbers were impressive if not fudged in language.

Quote
40 percent of customer service time was spent on disputes over virtual item sales. Since the debut of the Exchange, the overall customer service time spent has dropped 30 percent.

Does that mean there has been a decrease by 30% of total time down to 10%?

Or has it been reduced by 30% of the 40% , bringing total customer service time spent on virtual item disputes down to 28% of total customer service time?

If it's the former (as the language most seems to indicate), it is impressive if not unbelievable, especially when you consider the use of the word "time" and not total "calls". I would imagine when a user has a virtual item dispute there is a generic standard answer and that person is pushed out of the way quickly. Unlike a more serious game related dispute which requires investigation and a lot more communication. Their call volume would have to be down by truck-loads to pull that kind of number.
Hmm...

Vedi
Terracotta Army
Posts: 499


Reply #5 on: February 07, 2007, 07:31:00 PM

It's really cool of SOE to publish this information in a white paper. They could easily have kept it as internal-only information.

Are they just being nice here, or is this also a way to legitimize that RMT, at least in this form, is OK? The stats highlighted by Raph seems to support conclusions like "the average player uses this, not only farmers from low-wage countries".
lariac
Terracotta Army
Posts: 40


Reply #6 on: February 07, 2007, 10:48:27 PM

Getting back to the paper...

What I found interesting is who the buyers and sellers are. Those that seem to cherish time (30 year olds) are willing to shell out the dough, while those that have alot of time (students) seem to be willing to farm to their hearts content.


`A`ohe lokomaika`i i nele i ke pâna`i
Fordel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8306


Reply #7 on: February 07, 2007, 11:24:09 PM

Guess it depends on how much you could make from selling. If you can manage minimum wage, while playing a game you already enjoy, it's win win!

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
damijin
Terracotta Army
Posts: 448


WWW
Reply #8 on: February 08, 2007, 01:02:05 AM

Guess it depends on how much you could make from selling. If you can manage minimum wage, while playing a game you already enjoy, it's win win!

You can make a decent wage for a teenager/student, but you have to play a lot. In fact, you have to play so much that you pretty much can't be a student. Two of the western farmers I know are "home schooled" but their parents completely neglect their education and also catass at the game or even introduced the game to their kids.
Venkman
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11536


Reply #9 on: February 08, 2007, 04:17:15 AM

What I found interesting is who the buyers and sellers are. Those that seem to cherish time (30 year olds) are willing to shell out the dough, while those that have alot of time (students) seem to be willing to farm to their hearts content.
We have a bunch of 30+ers here (including myself, who's technically "late 30s") and at least to me this makes perfect sense. It's about life stages. When we're in our early 20s, we're on our own, able to be narcissistic, command our own destiny. At least, that's the case for people who play in this genre, not every early-20-somethings the world over. And even if you're back home after school living with the folks, they still would tend to give you some latitude as you're an "adult" now.

30s are different. There's a bunch of things that could be now: married, house, kids, defined career, etc.

It's all about time. It's always been about time really. While I agree with Margalis that XP is the most important currency, that's just a result of time. 20-somethings have more of it at their disposal than 30-somethings, while both ages (and others) are equally interested in playing in these worlds.
shiznitz
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4268

the plural of mangina


Reply #10 on: February 08, 2007, 07:19:08 AM

If XP is the commodity everyone is trying to buy, why doesn't SOE just sell that? There have definitely been times when if I could buy an activateable 2 hour +50% exp token for $5, I would have jumped all over it. It is the perfect transaction.

I have never played WoW.
Venkman
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11536


Reply #11 on: February 08, 2007, 07:22:59 AM

They effectively facilitate it already by allowing character sales. That's the most purchased thing because the characters in these transactions are bought as a sum total of their XP (and gear, though I personally feel that's secondary to the idea of buying a level that allows that player to go off and achieve gear at that level and beyond).
eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11839


Reply #12 on: February 08, 2007, 09:12:21 AM

The thing I feel compelled to point out about this is that the sky has not, in fact, fallen.

At the launch of this certain people seemed to be writing as if this was the betrayal of all things sacred.

Some people went off to have their sort of fun in the corner. /shrug.


Quote
What I found interesting is who the buyers and sellers are. Those that seem to cherish time (30 year olds) are willing to shell out the dough, while those that have alot of time (students) seem to be willing to farm to their hearts content.

I don't find this at all surprising.

30+ people have more money. So the 'negative fun' generated by them paying money is less.

And if I thought that buying a level gazillion elf wizard was going to provide fun greater than the negative fun of paying the RMT cost, I'd have no hesitation in doing it.

Levelling in a MMOG isn't an achievement or a rite of passage, if it is not fun, people will pay to skip it, only question is how much they'll pay.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
shiznitz
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4268

the plural of mangina


Reply #13 on: February 08, 2007, 09:45:53 AM

They effectively facilitate it already by allowing character sales. That's the most purchased thing because the characters in these transactions are bought as a sum total of their XP (and gear, though I personally feel that's secondary to the idea of buying a level that allows that player to go off and achieve gear at that level and beyond).

I understand that, but if you like your character name, there is a large psychic cost to switching. Additionally, it is an awkward conversation with your friends who don't RMT. The less transparent RMT is to other players, the more players will do it.

I have never played WoW.
Venkman
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11536


Reply #14 on: February 08, 2007, 10:02:28 AM

I completely agree. My name is one of the main reasons I've never even considered selling my characters (of course, the other main reason is that my gear generally sucks :) ).

However, SOE offers as another service (I think for $25) the option to change your character's name.

Quote from: Eldaec
At the launch of this certain people seemed to be writing as if this was the betrayal of all things sacred.
That SOE reversed a previously strong stance is I think what surprised people most. It'd be like Blizzard doing so now. However, I don't think anyone thinks Station Exchange fells skies. Their libraries don't have anywhere near the critical mass of players in this genre these days.

To me, the proliferation of microtrans-based games will come when games that already have those built into their systems make big numbers in the West. Some like Habbo and Maplestory already do, and they prove, handily, that companies can make a much higher ARPU on microtrans than flat-fee. However, the stigma of RMT in the West makes Western MMO developer/publishers averse to taking the risk. Except SOE. Because everyone hated them anyway :)
Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613


Reply #15 on: February 08, 2007, 10:07:25 AM

How much does making endgame characters available for purchase decrease the value of making a solid newbie experience?  If players are willing to bypass entire sections of game content, does this decrease the value of investing in the development of this content?  What I'm wondering out loud here is this: Is it a better investment to focus on endgame content rather than content developed to deliver players to the endgame and what effect does RMT have on this question?

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Simond
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6742


Reply #16 on: February 08, 2007, 10:28:52 AM

The customer service numbers were impressive if not fudged in language.

Quote
40 percent of customer service time was spent on disputes over virtual item sales. Since the debut of the Exchange, the overall customer service time spent has dropped 30 percent.

Does that mean there has been a decrease by 30% of total time down to 10%?

Or has it been reduced by 30% of the 40% , bringing total customer service time spent on virtual item disputes down to 28% of total customer service time?

If it's the former (as the language most seems to indicate), it is impressive if not unbelievable, especially when you consider the use of the word "time" and not total "calls". I would imagine when a user has a virtual item dispute there is a generic standard answer and that person is pushed out of the way quickly. Unlike a more serious game related dispute which requires investigation and a lot more communication. Their call volume would have to be down by truck-loads to pull that kind of number.
Hmm...
Over on FoH, Smed said that the percent of CS time on virtual item disputes went from 40% to 10%.

"You're really a good person, aren't you? So, there's no path for you to take here. Go home. This isn't a place for someone like you."
damijin
Terracotta Army
Posts: 448


WWW
Reply #17 on: February 08, 2007, 10:49:04 AM

stuff...
Over on FoH, Smed said that the percent of CS time on virtual item disputes went from 40% to 10%.

Aha, but look at his wording,

Quote
we have reduced the farming related CS issues from 40% of our CS petitions to more like 10%
It's not a huge deal, it just means the wording in the paper was incorrect, but it could be an honest mistake. Makes a lot more sense as petitions than as time though, thanks Simond.
Venkman
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11536


Reply #18 on: February 08, 2007, 10:54:19 AM

How much does making endgame characters available for purchase decrease the value of making a solid newbie experience?  If players are willing to bypass entire sections of game content, does this decrease the value of investing in the development of this content?  What I'm wondering out loud here is this: Is it a better investment to focus on endgame content rather than content developed to deliver players to the endgame and what effect does RMT have on this question?
Consider: only 25% of the players on the SE-enabled servers bothered with purchases/sales at all, and only a mere percentage of that went with buying characters (which could maybe be 12% of the players? My math sucks). I think for some raiding or discovering later zones or keeping up with friends even at the expense of the path of discovery is compelling. But if only roughly 12% of all players on these types of servers bothered buying a character to do so, that's not enough to refocus energy away from those on the path to the endgame.

EQ2 is replete with content at almost all levels of play though, so it's not like they have an issue of too much funneling as far as I know.
eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11839


Reply #19 on: February 08, 2007, 01:37:47 PM

How much does making endgame characters available for purchase decrease the value of making a solid newbie experience?  If players are willing to bypass entire sections of game content, does this decrease the value of investing in the development of this content?  What I'm wondering out loud here is this: Is it a better investment to focus on endgame content rather than content developed to deliver players to the endgame and what effect does RMT have on this question?



Regarding the impact of RMT on development, tbh, the needs of a secondary market direct more developer effort into avoiding a linear gaming experience (where for instance chunks of content are only worthwhile at exactly level 20) and away from mudflation. In fact, they probably push developers away from dikumuds entirely. This could well be a good thing.




I think what the whole thing tells you is that players will pay more than they currently do for whatever they percieve to be extra fun. Of course, there is plenty of evidence to back that up if you compare the cost of MMOGs with the cost of other forms of hobby gaming. Even if you stay in the realm of PC gaming, I suspect MMOG gamers pay less into the industry per month than regular single player gamers (because they buy new games less often).


EDIT: reordered things so stuff made sense.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2007, 01:44:43 PM by eldaec »

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Soln
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4737

the opportunity for evil is just delicious


Reply #20 on: February 08, 2007, 01:42:06 PM

outside of any philosophical disagreements from a game design perspective, having the Exchange run by SOE and available I still think was brilliant.  I only wish it was over every server.  And available in CDN.  If you're paying to play already, you can pay more to play more/differently.
Venkman
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11536


Reply #21 on: February 08, 2007, 01:55:46 PM

Quote
Regarding the impact of RMT on development, tbh, the needs of a secondary market direct more developer effort into avoiding a linear gaming experience (where for instance chunks of content are only worthwhile at exactly level 20) and away from mudflation. In fact, they probably push developers away from dikumuds entirely. This could well be a good thing.
Actually, I think it's more basic than that.

The "problem" of RMT is broken down into two main areas:

  • What do players think. Blizzard's solution is to take some of the cash from their moneyhats and send lawyers all over the place. And SOE could do whatever they want because their star burned out already.
  • What does the company need. SOE and any modern MMO coming from the Far East realized the quicker path to more money isn't always just about getting more players and retaining them with expensive new content. It was about getting a chunk of those players to pay more for the game through extra-item sales. The Far East has advanced to the point where they don't even need to sell the games nor charge any flat fee at all, such is the generated revenue.

So to "solve" the problem, from a corporate side, is to basically bring RMTing in-house. More money is out there and corporations have a responsibility to their shareholders to go get it. This is why so many are pushing for microtrans-based games. I'm convinced that will be the way in the future, whether 3 or 5 years or whatever, and even Blizzard will cave (maybe when their own star is not so bright).
Yegolev
Moderator
Posts: 24440

2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST


WWW
Reply #22 on: February 08, 2007, 02:03:32 PM

If I find anything surprising here, it's the fact that there is still a grind to the end-game.  WoW has nicely illustrated a division in the endgamers and the... uh, whatever the word would be for the people that enjoy leveling up and starting over.  I recall similar complaints from DAoC about how it would be totally awesome if the PVE grind was removed.  This paper just reinforces that.  Just selling level-70 characters could be a business; they would likely all have the same template/equipment if organically grown, anyway.

As for publishing the paper, Smed wants the word out about all this unclaimed money, that much is certain.  I figure he is quickly whipping suits into a froth, and from here his name will be associated with the western RMT pioneers as well as the graphical MUD pioneers.  Cha-ching!

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Chenghiz
Terracotta Army
Posts: 868


Reply #23 on: February 08, 2007, 04:04:38 PM

I recall similar complaints from DAoC about how it would be totally awesome if the PVE grind was removed.  This paper just reinforces that.  Just selling level-70 characters could be a business; they would likely all have the same template/equipment if organically grown, anyway.

A friend and I were talking about this yesterday. We're going Dranei for arena PVP on a new server, and both of us have done 1-60 a few times before; at this point it's just a barrier between us and the part of the game we actually haven't seen yet. I'm not sure if it would actually benefit Blizzard, business-wise or gameplay-wise, to sell level-cap characters though. Sounds good to me but I can't really foresee the implications.
Margalis
Terracotta Army
Posts: 12335


Reply #24 on: February 08, 2007, 04:06:00 PM

Character sale is pretty different from item sales. Item and money sales can lead to farming and inflation, which hurts all legit players. Character sales don't have a broad effect outside of spurring some pretty jealousy from the 'you have to *earn* your way by suffering' crowd. Especially if the person doing the selling is not a factory character producer but just a guy looking to leave the game.


I don't think the issue is just skipping boring content either. A lot of it may be "my friends are all raiding and I'm level 30."

I don't understand why people are against RMT outside of economy impact. I've always contended that a lot of people play MMORPGs as a sort of passive-aggressive competition, even in games with no PVP or other in-game competition. Instead players make it a race to get the cool stuff first and play to hoard their achievements over others.

If you aren't one of those players, who is buying what from where doesn't make any difference unless it encourages farming and the like.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Venkman
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11536


Reply #25 on: February 08, 2007, 05:33:41 PM

I liked DAoC's /level system, though I'd much prefer to unlock a character 3/4 of the way through the levels and only in a game with WoW's pace of XP. The grind from 1-60 is WAY much easier in WoW than DAoC (except if you have a friend to PL you), but being so easy makes it annoying and pointless. I do think players should have to hit the cap at least once though. That's annoying to them, but the company should at least require eyeballs visit a lot of the content they spent so much money creating. Boring or not, /level is a reward to people who did the time AND have a proven interest in sticking with the endlessly repeatable endgame.

At the same time, I don't think this is a good idea for WoW itself. This is because a) it's so easy to hit 60 most everyone who plays 5 hours a week sporadically can do it; while, b) when they get there, they realize the fundamental difference of that endgame. 70 will be the same way. Yes there's PUG BGs, and yes Arenas are short battles of small teams. But PvP itself alienates some and their alternative then will be what it was at 60: Raid. 25 people or 40, it's still locked in dedicated gaming to the exclusion of life, consistently and endlessly.

That's an irony really. Letting everyone /level once everyone hits the cap just means a lot of extra characters going unplayed because the endgame is beyond the folks who just barely achieved it.
eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11839


Reply #26 on: February 09, 2007, 08:15:44 AM

I liked DAoC's /level system, though I'd much prefer to unlock a character 3/4 of the way through the levels and only in a game with WoW's pace of XP. The grind from 1-60 is WAY much easier in WoW than DAoC (except if you have a friend to PL you), but being so easy makes it annoying and pointless. I do think players should have to hit the cap at least once though. That's annoying to them, but the company should at least require eyeballs visit a lot of the content they spent so much money creating. Boring or not, /level is a reward to people who did the time AND have a proven interest in sticking with the endlessly repeatable endgame.

/Level prevents newbies grouping with vets. On a mature server it prevents newbies grouping at all.

I have no problem with the idea that alts should level up quicker simply because they will get bored of the content faster, but you have to find a way that encourages vets to communicate with noobs.

An xp bonus % for having other level capped characters on the server would be better than /level.

Quote
I don't think the issue is just skipping boring content either. A lot of it may be "my friends are all raiding and I'm level 30."

I agree, but sidekicking mechanics seem a better solution in a dikumud.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613


Reply #27 on: February 09, 2007, 08:24:32 AM

The grind from 1-60 is WAY much easier in WoW than DAoC (except if you have a friend to PL you), but being so easy makes it annoying and pointless.

There's nothing wrong with liking WoW, but this statement is flat out wrong.  Without a PL, I can level a character in DAoC from 1-50 in less than 1 day played, ENTIRELY SOLO, and without any help whatsoever (no cash, no gear, no nothing).  I could never get from 1-60 in WoW solo in less than 24h online... unless something has drastically changed. 

Sorry, but these misconceptions irritate me.  DAoC PvE sucks, but it's currently one of the shortest trips to the endgame you can find (<24h solo, <8h with help).  I sometimes wonder why it exists at all.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11839


Reply #28 on: February 09, 2007, 08:26:17 AM

To be fair, that wasn't true when daoc was still attracting decent numbers of new players.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Nebu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 17613


Reply #29 on: February 09, 2007, 08:32:44 AM

To be fair, that wasn't true when daoc was still attracting decent numbers of new players.

It has been true for the past 2 years minimum.  If you're going to comment on gameplay systems, it's important to discuss the current iteration.  The evolution of game mechanics says a lot about the developers and the state of the game.  I think it would be equally unfair to describe EQ2 based on what the game was like at release. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Alkiera
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1556

The best part of SWG was the easy account cancellation process.


Reply #30 on: February 12, 2007, 03:41:53 PM

To be fair, that wasn't true when daoc was still attracting decent numbers of new players.

It has been true for the past 2 years minimum.  If you're going to comment on gameplay systems, it's important to discuss the current iteration.  The evolution of game mechanics says a lot about the developers and the state of the game.  I think it would be equally unfair to describe EQ2 based on what the game was like at release. 

DAoC and EQ1 both have the problem that people assume that the game has stayed relatively static over the years since they quit.  Actual game systems in both EQ1 and DAoC have changed greatly over time, in part because of competition like WoW.  EQ1 has vastly reduced downtime from what it previously was, and Dev thoughts on mecahnics have shifted such that there are items with hp/mana regen mods on them, available as early as level 20.

I don't follow DAoC, but I'm certain significant changes have been made there too, the issue being that no one knows about them unless they play or carefully follow the game.  I can't even tell you what the last expansion to DAoC was, I'm as guilty for making assumptions about DAoC as the next person.  On the other hand, I try to only comment on topics I know something about, which when it comes to specific games, is EQ1, and a smattering of the low-levels of most of the other games.

--
Alkiera

"[I could] become the world's preeminent MMO class action attorney.  I could be the lawyer EVEN AMBULANCE CHASERS LAUGH AT. " --Triforcer

Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
Yegolev
Moderator
Posts: 24440

2/10 WOULD NOT INGEST


WWW
Reply #31 on: February 12, 2007, 09:35:24 PM

In my mind, it's two different games, the levelgrind and the endgame.  I don't know why they are paired up except by historical association, with endgame being the chicken to the levelgrind's egg.  It's probably not a brilliant idea for Blizz to start selling level 70 templates in the existing game, but in some other game it might.  Well, really, you'd have no levels in the endgame-game since the idea would be superfluous.  It should be pretty easy to design, though, since there are large numbers of players doing something or other in WoW as level 70 characters.  Just make a new game like that.

So, the levelgrind half of this theoretical separation, what does this become?  Permadeath game.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
They called it The Prayer, its answer was law
Mommy come back 'cause the water's all gone
Pages: [1] Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  The Gaming Graveyard  |  MMOG Discussion  |  Topic: Station Exchange is One Year Old  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC