Looting in PVP

[LC]

I don't think anyone is arguing that you can't have your own MMO if you want it. The big argument is that it probably won't happen because the market isn't asking for it in enough numbers to make it worthwhile, regardless of how you or I feel about it. No company is going to sink even Vanguard amounts of money into a looting PvP type game because they will lose money. And if you don't have the money, the game is probably going to be underproduced and you'll end up with another Shadowbane. The best you can hope for is really EvE levels of success both in market and in a well-made game.

Which brings us back to the original discussion. There simply aren't enough players who enjoy this "adrenalin rush". No amount of arguing or waving your e-peen in the faces of people who don't enjoy it will make it happen. Sorry.

ETA: This really comes down to the whole point that most gamers do not want to be punished for losing in a game. This applies to both pve and pvp. I'm not sure I understand why that is so hard to understand.

There are plenty of people willing to play such a game. There is just no way to prove it without a game to use as a measure. Shadowbane had a large number of players at release. You can find threads similar to this on just about every forum in existence. There are even websites dedicated to it. Your argument is like saying companies shouldn't market products to minorities because there are more white people. I have no doubt that a lot of the vocal MMO players have this kind of mentality. But there are enough of us normal players to make a proper PvP game profitable as well.

[Valmorian]

The losers aren't always the less skilled. Most the time, they are the ones that can't adapt. Sorry, its true. Adaptation includes: Strength in numbers, escapes (such as recall / root and run). Sometimes luck is a factor, as well as environment.

My post has nothing to do with the losers always being less skilled.  The point is that less skilled people lose MORE OFTEN.  That's kind of by definition, wouldn't you say?  If it isn't, then you're better off just rolling dice, since apparently skill has no effect at all.

Just become there is some item loss doesn't equal huge roaming death packs of people. From your quote it sounds like you don't like losing to more skilled players than yourself. You know you will never be the best so you say remove any death penalty. My five year old daughter is obsessed with winning too. So when she loses and starts throwing a fit, I take her toy away.

*laugh* Where in the world did you get THAT idea?  I play a LOT of games.  I certainly expect to lose to more skilled players, and what I said has nothing to do with not enjoying playing with more skilled players.  If you actually, you know, READ what I said you would realize that it's not the opponent's skill at beating me that I wouldn't enjoy, it's the loss of material. 

Playing at a disadvantage, having a handicap, those are all things that MORE skilled players do in order to foster a challenge against a lesser skilled opponent.  To suggest that a player should have a handicap on their next game because they lost the last game?  That's a broken system, my friend.

That there are some people that can't seem to see that is amusing to me.  It's even MORE amusing when they suggest that I don't approve of item loss because I don't enjoy losing to players that are more skilled than I am.  What does that have to do with what I said AT ALL?

[Valmorian]

But there are enough of us normal players to make a proper PvP game profitable as well.

What makes you think that players who want what you consider a "proper" PvP game are "normal"?
By any rational definition of the term "normal" I'd say they want what WoW offers. 

Unless of course by "normal" you mean "thinks like I do about PvP" in which case I'd say you have a distorted sense of self-importance.

[Nebu]

My post has nothing to do with the losers always being less skilled.  The point is that less skilled people lose MORE OFTEN.  That's kind of by definition, wouldn't you say?  If it isn't, then you're better off just rolling dice, since apparently skill has no effect at all.

I'm not sure that's necessarily the case.  Less skilled players that wish to remain in the game world will find other ways to compensate, usually by running in larger numbers.  This is very much the case in DAoC as most players do poorly when on their own and will band into groups to prey on smaller groups.  If that's the dynamic you're after, that's fine... I'm just reminding you that there are alternative ways to get around skill determining outcomes.

[LC]

But there are enough of us normal players to make a proper PvP game profitable as well.

What makes you think that players who want what you consider a "proper" PvP game are "normal"?
By any rational definition of the term "normal" I'd say they want what WoW offers. 

Unless of course by "normal" you mean "thinks like I do about PvP" in which case I'd say you have a distorted sense of self-importance.

Many WoW players are just there because nothing else is available.

[Morat20]

Many WoW players are just there because nothing else is available.

Yeah, that must be it.

[Nebu]

Many WoW players are just there because nothing else is available.

I think the WoW players stay in WoW for many other reasons like loot, "ding-gratz", linearity, social ties, and even inertia.  There are games like Planetside or EvE available for people wanting a different PvP experience and neither seems to be benefitting from WoW run-off (that I can tell).  I think that WAR and AoC may test your theory, but it will be a while until we'll be able to watch that happen.  

[Valmorian]

I'm not sure that's necessarily the case.  Less skilled players that wish to remain in the game world will find other ways to compensate, usually by running in larger numbers.  This is very much the case in DAoC as most players do poorly when on their own and will band into groups to prey on smaller groups.  If that's the dynamic you're after, that's fine... I'm just reminding you that there are alternative ways to get around skill determining outcomes.

Oh agreed.  But that just points out what I've been saying all along: You handicap the "Winner" not the loser.  In this case, if you had a roaming pack of players who, individually weren't the best, but together could roll over anyone else, would you then handicap everyone else?  Perhaps by taking away their ability to group with others for a while each time they got killed by a group?  

It's just madness.  It's like the PvP item looting crowd can't see the effect it would have...

[Arthur_Parker]

There are plenty of people willing to play such a game. There is just no way to prove it without a game to use as a measure. Shadowbane had a large number of players at release.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you just want to the freedom to kill players anywhere, loot them and hold territory.  That's all a real pvp game needs, as clan warfare should provide the rest of the content, that's right isn't it?

[ajax34i]

There are plenty of people willing to play such a game. There is just no way to prove it without a game to use as a measure. Shadowbane had a large number of players at release. You can find threads similar to this on just about every forum in existence. There are even websites dedicated to it. Your argument is like saying companies shouldn't market products to minorities because there are more white people. I have no doubt that a lot of the vocal MMO players have this kind of mentality. But there are enough of us normal players to make a proper PvP game profitable as well.

Your previous response, and this; you seem to believe that this thread is about "There need to be more PVP MMOG's!!!!!" and people arguing against that, when in fact the thread seems to be just a discussion about the pros and cons of various PvP systems, and what's fun in them, with no relation to the existence or popularity of certain games.  You don't need to defend anything, we are not clamoring for the death of corpseloot PVP in all its existing forms.

[Riggswolfe]

There are plenty of people willing to play such a game. There is just no way to prove it without a game to use as a measure. Shadowbane had a large number of players at release. You can find threads similar to this on just about every forum in existence. There are even websites dedicated to it. Your argument is like saying companies shouldn't market products to minorities because there are more white people. I have no doubt that a lot of the vocal MMO players have this kind of mentality. But there are enough of us normal players to make a proper PvP game profitable as well.

Either you're blatantly trolling or stupid, either way, talking to you is becoming repetitive and boring. However, I'll give it one last try. BTW, when people start thinking you're worse than Geldon or SirBruce, you might need to take a step back and look at your posting habits. Hell, I feel like I'm insulting Geldon by mentioning him in this post.

Now, on to the relevant stuff. If by plenty of people you mean a niche market. Then yes, you're right. At its height, most sources cite Shadowbane having around 50,000 players. Hmmm...50,000 vs 8 (or so) million. Do you see the problem here? The U.S. alone has around 300 million people. Which means if all WOW players were from the U.S. it would account for 2-3% of our population. Shadowbane isn't even a measurable blip on the radar. Shadowbane was about .000016% of that population. Or about 1/2% of WOW's numbers, rounding up. Even early UO which is gaming nirvana to you people was never even close to the success of WOW. In fact, it hemorrhaged subscribers until your preferred type of gameplay was taken out.

As for the minorities vs white people argument, this is just more of your blatant trolling and if anything indicates your own not so well hidden racism. Not to mention it makes no damned sense in the context of this argument and you probably know it.

What you seem to be missing in all of your bullshit is the fundamental understanding of two things: How a market works and human psychology.

Human psychology does not favor your kind of game. The vast majority of people do not want to be punished for losing in a pvp match.
Market forces will not support something that is not and never has been profitable. Game companies are you know, in it to make money. You and your buddies don't do that for them. Sorry, you lose to capitalism. Suck it up and be a man.

BTW, I wonder if you realize that a carebear is actually an anti-pk, and results from events back on UO when some antis rose up and utterly humiliated a prominent PK guild. So, calling people a carebear is actually not at all an insult since it implies they are an adaptable, versatile pvper who enjoys wiping out PKs.

[Riggswolfe]

There are plenty of people willing to play such a game. There is just no way to prove it without a game to use as a measure. Shadowbane had a large number of players at release. You can find threads similar to this on just about every forum in existence. There are even websites dedicated to it. Your argument is like saying companies shouldn't market products to minorities because there are more white people. I have no doubt that a lot of the vocal MMO players have this kind of mentality. But there are enough of us normal players to make a proper PvP game profitable as well.

Your previous response, and this; you seem to believe that this thread is about "There need to be more PVP MMOG's!!!!!" and people arguing against that, when in fact the thread seems to be just a discussion about the pros and cons of various PvP systems, and what's fun in them, with no relation to the existence or popularity of certain games.  You don't need to defend anything, we are not clamoring for the death of corpseloot PVP in all its existing forms.

You're more or less right in this. I'd say some people, like me are stating the obvious, corpseloot pvp was inherantly unpopular and is pretty much dead due to market forces. Other kinds of pvp are actually making strides from the near-death pvp suffered during the EQ era. (I'd say pvp was damn near wiped out because of corpseloot pvp and how it pushed alot of people away.) WOW has actually gotten alot of people to try pvp and enjoy it, which is partially what is making games like AOC and WAR possible.

The other thing he believes the thread is about is himself, and anyone who disagrees with him being some treehugging wimp.

[slog]

It helps if you understand LC's background.  He was one of the hardcore SB beta testers.  I belive he eventually got banned for exploiting, but I'm sure he will fill you in on the details.

That being said 50k subs is probably the most you could get with a Full loot game.  (I think I said this earlier)  It would have to an indie game with crappy graphics, but it could be done.  Send Psycochild a PM or something and get him to comment.  He would know better than most people...

[squirrel]

But there are enough of us normal players to make a proper PvP game profitable as well.

What makes you think that players who want what you consider a "proper" PvP game are "normal"?
By any rational definition of the term "normal" I'd say they want what WoW offers. 

Unless of course by "normal" you mean "thinks like I do about PvP" in which case I'd say you have a distorted sense of self-importance.

Many WoW players are just there because nothing else is available.

Yeah because when EQ2, Vanguard, DDO, LotRO, AoC, WAR ships, boy then there's going to be a big exodus. 

[d4rkj3di]

From what I understand of Warhammer Online, they will treat other player characters as mobs after killng them, where you can loot their corpse for random money/items. I'd love to be able to point at someone and say, that's the guy who I looted my epic sword of awesomesauce from. If they allowed cross faction communication, I would link it to him in tells everytime he logged on.

My understanding is that the items will be spawned on the corpse and not come from the player's actual items.

Correct. I just suck at making the point clear.

[Slayerik]

Before I leave work, I must say that comparing any games at this point to WoW is pretty stupid. WoW is the Giant. All of your friends play WoW. We are just the nerds that know there is other stuff out there. Eventually, churn (I feel smart now) will have an effect, and people will most likely look for a diff MMO.

Some of those people will be PVP junkies.

[LC]

Yeah because when EQ2, Vanguard, DDO, LotRO, AoC, WAR ships, boy then there's going to be a big exodus. 

That's like saying nobody's switching from Comcast because Peoplepc dialup internet services became available. I meant a quality game with proper pvp. Those released games you mentioned are turd piles.

[Morat20]

Before I leave work, I must say that comparing any games at this point to WoW is pretty stupid. WoW is the Giant. All of your friends play WoW. We are just the nerds that know there is other stuff out there. Eventually, churn (I feel smart now) will have an effect, and people will most likely look for a diff MMO.

Some of those people will be PVP junkies.

For light "fun" PvP. Not the nads kicking "FUCK YOU I WIN BITCH!" ass-raping of pre-Trammel UO, which some so obviously long for. They like PvP in which they die, rez, and get back to the fight.

Not PvP in which they die, rez naked, have to go buy more stuff which is inferior to their original stuff while the winner prances by in their old hat throwing the money he looted off their corpse at beggers.

I'd like to suggest there is a subtle, but important, difference between "I die and lose my stuff" and "I die and you get all my stuff". I suspect the former is a hell of a lot more popular than the latter, although neither are going to be anywhere near as popular as free-play PvP with nothing but a small time or durability loss.

[Valmorian]

Before I leave work, I must say that comparing any games at this point to WoW is pretty stupid. WoW is the Giant. All of your friends play WoW. We are just the nerds that know there is other stuff out there. Eventually, churn (I feel smart now) will have an effect, and people will most likely look for a diff MMO.

Some of those people will be PVP junkies.

It's not stupid to compare other MMO's to WoW.  There's a REASON it's a giant.  Indeed, there's probably MANY reasons.  I happen to think one of those reasons (at least in the case of the PvP servers) is the lack of a lasting penalty to the losing side of a PvP fight.

There's a lot of people on the WoW PvP servers, how do you think those PvP server populations would fare if they had item loot upon death? Do you NOT think that the consequence free PvP model that WoW offers is a draw to those servers? 


 

[Sky]

Maybe some of you are just boring people, and it fits you like a glove. Many of us prefer fun and excitement over boredom though.

You are really trying hard today. Quit the fucking trolling already.

[Furiously]

I'm not saying that a loss should make you want to quit the game. But I am saying that it shouldn't make you feel indifferent toward the guy who just killed you. I played WoW for a year, but I can't remember a single opponent's name. I can remember a few guilds, but that's about it. I played UO for 3 years, and I can remember almost every player that ever killed me. I can even remember the name of the first guy to pk me as a newbie. His name was Pen15, and he killed me at the west gate of Trinsic. I can remember things that happened ten years ago in UO, but I can't remember anything from playing WoW last year. Obviously WoW's pvp was not able to hold my attention.

Looting is a bond between the victor and victim. If you take that away, it (pvp) really is just a game of quake on a public server.

No - you remember it because it was your first taste of it. Ask any herion addict about the first time they shot up. Then ask them about 4 times ago.

And no - it isn't a bond. And what Sky said about you being a troll. Go place boards with nails in them on a freeway,  I'm sure you will form the same bond with people.

[SnakeCharmer]

Looting is a bond between the victor and victim. If you take that away, it (pvp) really is just a game of quake on a public server.

That is pretty much the dumbest fucking thing I have read on internet forum.  Seriously.

[LC]

Either you're blatantly trolling or stupid, either way, talking to you is becoming repetitive and boring. However, I'll give it one last try. BTW, when people start thinking you're worse than Geldon or SirBruce, you might need to take a step back and look at your posting habits. Hell, I feel like I'm insulting Geldon by mentioning him in this post.

That's funny because I was thinking the same about you.

Now, on to the relevant stuff. If by plenty of people you mean a niche market. Then yes, you're right. At its height, most sources cite Shadowbane having around 50,000 players. Hmmm...50,000 vs 8 (or so) million. Do you see the problem here? The U.S. alone has around 300 million people. Which means if all WOW players were from the U.S. it would account for 2-3% of our population. Shadowbane isn't even a measurable blip on the radar. Shadowbane was about .000016% of that population. Or about 1/2% of WOW's numbers, rounding up. Even early UO which is gaming nirvana to you people was never even close to the success of WOW. In fact, it hemorrhaged subscribers until your preferred type of gameplay was taken out.

"In its second recorded week of sales, Shadowbane falls off the sales charts after making a debut in the number eight spot after release."

Word of mouth is a bitch. It started off strong for low budget game from an unknown developer. Shadowbane was flawed to the core. It didn't even have full looting.

I think things would be much different for UO if it was launching tomorrow with a modern client+graphics. Most of the PvP issues in UO were because of poor coding. The majority of players were on dialup, and a few were on faster connections. Those few were able to dominate because the game allowed them to move much faster than those on dialup. It was a massacre, and left many people feeling bitter. The blame was misdirected at PvP in general, and OSI quickly patched out PvP instead of fixing the real problem.

As for the minorities vs white people argument, this is just more of your blatant trolling and if anything indicates your own not so well hidden racism. Not to mention it makes no damned sense in the context of this argument and you probably know it.

Just who am I racist toward? You don't even know what race I am. I could very well be in one of those minorities. The racism card is an easy way to cover your own stupidity.

What you seem to be missing in all of your bullshit is the fundamental understanding of two things: How a market works and human psychology.

Human psychology does not favor your kind of game. The vast majority of people do not want to be punished for losing in a pvp match.
Market forces will not support something that is not and never has been profitable. Game companies are you know, in it to make money. You and your buddies don't do that for them. Sorry, you lose to capitalism. Suck it up and be a man.

There's no proof to back this up. Well unless you really think WoW proves it. But MMO players are still a very small percentage of gamers. Which is probably due to the monthly fees, and lack a of variety.

BTW, I wonder if you realize that a carebear is actually an anti-pk, and results from events back on UO when some antis rose up and utterly humiliated a prominent PK guild. So, calling people a carebear is actually not at all an insult since it implies they are an adaptable, versatile pvper who enjoys wiping out PKs.

And "gay" once meant the same thing as "jolly".

[Arthur_Parker]

There is a market for pvp with looting, but no big budget game is going to go purely after that section of the playerbase, it doesn't make sense as the people who don't want a stiff death penalty out number those who do. 

Some game companies might try to attract the hardcore pvp player with special ruleset servers, after all they have already laid out for all the expensive items like game engine, artwork and coding. 

However the biggest barrier to getting pvp ffa with looting servers, has always been and probably always will be people like LC, because any major game community reacts very badly when the subject even comes up. 

That's solely down to players like him who just cannot separate being a prick in game (which is fine) from being a prick to the rest of the playerbase when they actually outnumber you.   Being a prick on an official forum gets you noticed, but doesn't serve any purpose in getting your wants fullfilled, if your very presence enrages the majority of the games future customers.

[Riggswolfe]

"In its second recorded week of sales, Shadowbane falls off the sales charts after making a debut in the number eight spot after release."

Word of mouth is a bitch. It started off strong for low budget game from an unknown developer. Shadowbane was flawed to the core. It didn't even have full looting.

So you expect me to believe that in one week, just one, word of mouth killed Shadowbane? It's far more likely that its core audience accounted for enough people to buy it in that first week.

I think things would be much different for UO if it was launching tomorrow with a modern client+graphics. Most of the PvP issues in UO were because of poor coding. The majority of players were on dialup, and a few were on faster connections. Those few were able to dominate because the game allowed them to move much faster than those on dialup. It was a massacre, and left many people feeling bitter. The blame was misdirected at PvP in general, and OSI quickly patched out PvP instead of fixing the real problem.

Which was it? Poor coding or differences in hardware? In any case, you're right. It was poor coding. Full ffa pvp with looting enabled drove away players. Thank you for making my point.

As for the minorities vs white people argument, this is just more of your blatant trolling and if anything indicates your own not so well hidden racism. Not to mention it makes no damned sense in the context of this argument and you probably know it.

Just who am I racist toward? You don't even know what race I am. I could very well be in one of those minorities. The racism card is an easy way to cover your own stupidity.

I had an answer but I took it out. This "point" is so flawed it's not even worth arguing.

What you seem to be missing in all of your bullshit is the fundamental understanding of two things: How a market works and human psychology.

Human psychology does not favor your kind of game. The vast majority of people do not want to be punished for losing in a pvp match.
Market forces will not support something that is not and never has been profitable. Game companies are you know, in it to make money. You and your buddies don't do that for them. Sorry, you lose to capitalism. Suck it up and be a man.

There's no proof to back this up. Well unless you really think WoW proves it. But MMO players are still a very small percentage of gamers. Which is probably due to the monthly fees, and lack a of variety.

Ok, get this? When I can bring in numbers, and all you can do is stick your fingers in your ears and yell really loudly that I am wrong the burden of proof is no longer on me. The proof is in the sheer numbers. Full loot pvp games aren't in the market because there is not enough demand to justify the price it costs to make an mmo. It really is that simple. It's not a carebear conspiracy, it's not that most people are wrong and you're right, it's market forces.

BTW, I wonder if you realize that a carebear is actually an anti-pk, and results from events back on UO when some antis rose up and utterly humiliated a prominent PK guild. So, calling people a carebear is actually not at all an insult since it implies they are an adaptable, versatile pvper who enjoys wiping out PKs.

And "gay" once meant the same thing as "jolly".

*snort* and PvP once meant UO-style. That's changed too.

ETA: Apologies to other posters who had to read this post. Oh, and Arthur Parker is exactly right. Though don't worry fellow posters, LC will say he is wrong and all WOW players are waiting for is his kind of game.

[d4rkj3di]

I think LC is just angsty over the fact that he missed being user number 1337 by only 1. Now he's just LEEG!

[Nija]

You're more or less right in this. I'd say some people, like me are stating the obvious, corpseloot pvp was inherantly unpopular and is pretty much dead due to market forces.

Well, the shift towards item-based games with Everquest made full looting impractical. If you were a ranger and you killed a wizard - if he dropped 100% of his loot, what percentage could you put to use? Let's ignore the, "you might have a wizard friend!" angle and let's just concentrate on what percentage of loot you could put to use.

Like in WOW - can you imagine full looting in WOW? Let's ignore the obvious "I've spent 3 sleepless weeks of my life in Molten fucking Core" problems and think how worthless it would be to kill a paladin and loot him. Since, you know, you're horde. I knew I was pissed when +int plate dropped, and I was a shaman and couldn't even use plate! I'm sure the warriors felt worse.

Anyways, with levels and more specifically item-based gameplay instead of character-skill (not player skill - avatar skill ) we won't see full looting, ever.

[Arthur_Parker]

BTW, I wonder if you realize that a carebear is actually an anti-pk, and results from events back on UO when some antis rose up and utterly humiliated a prominent PK guild. So, calling people a carebear is actually not at all an insult since it implies they are an adaptable, versatile pvper who enjoys wiping out PKs.

According to wikipedia (yes I know, but if you can quote a better source go ahead)

Players who prefer PvE or other non-confrontational styles of play are often referred to by the slang term Carebears. This is a reference to the popular 80's American cartoon show the Care Bears.

Grouping with other players for PvE encounters is also another form of PvP itself. You can roll for items against other players, and you compete with players to make good groups.

The term "Carebear" originated in the online game Ultima Online when it referred to a method of dealing with particularly violent playing styles. The joke originally started on the Crossroads of Britannia message board where there were two large groups of roleplayers, one from Chesapeake and the other from the Lake Superior server. The latter were more into PvP and the former a more peaceful style of roleplaying. The Chesapeake group referred to the LS group as the "biker gang" and the "Carebear" term was put on the Chesapeake group. One night, the Chesapeake group invaded Silk's Tavern on Lake Superior by creating throwaway characters with names from the original TV show and "attacked" the assorted group of people roleplaying at the tavern. The attackers used hugs and "Carebear Stares!" to cuddle up with the LS group - frustrating them greatly in the middle of a large melee with other PvP groups.

The real start of this came when a PK guild, KOC, repeatedly attacked the non-violent roleplaying sessions of a group on the Chesapeake server at their tavern. Elawyn of Yew, one of the roleplayers, initiated a policy of not fighting back and carrying no items to steal, thus giving no satisfaction to the griefers.

[LC]

Which was it? Poor coding or differences in hardware? In any case, you're right. It was poor coding. Full ffa pvp with looting enabled drove away players. Thank you for making my point.

Your reading comprehension is horrible.

Full ffa pvp with looting just took the blame for other shortcomings. Just like video games that make children shoot their classmates.

[slog]

If you released UO today, everyone would still go to Trammel.  If Trammel wasn't in, they would go to WoW.

[Riggswolfe]

The real start of this came when a PK guild, KOC, repeatedly attacked the non-violent roleplaying sessions of a group on the Chesapeake server at their tavern. Elawyn of Yew, one of the roleplayers, initiated a policy of not fighting back and carrying no items to steal, thus giving no satisfaction to the griefers.

What the Wiki leaves out is the event I was referring to. The RP group made throwaway toons and used them to grief KOC right back one day. Here from the KOC website is a very abreviated version:

One night, the 'Care Bears' or The Oasis's newbie thieves, somehow got ahold of Magincia's keys to his house. They kept coming, we kept taking murder counts. They looted, we went red. Magincia went crazy in the IRC chatroom, Magincia was no longer Keepers of Chaos. Sadly, these were the last days of SilentBob and Atombob, as they moved on from UO as well, not before SilentBob took about 20 murder counts in the name of Keepers of Chaos.

From http://www.keepers-of-chaos.com/post/Keepers-of-Chaos-History.html

They play the event down somewhat (mostly I suspect out of pride.).

[Riggswolfe]

Which was it? Poor coding or differences in hardware? In any case, you're right. It was poor coding. Full ffa pvp with looting enabled drove away players. Thank you for making my point.

Your reading comprehension is horrible.

Full ffa pvp with looting just took the blame for other shortcomings. Just like video games that make children shoot their classmates.

What color is the sky in your world? The problems FFA pvp with looting caused were compounded by the other issues. But people who hated that environment didn't hate their modems you twat (to borrow from Angry Bob) they hated the FFA pvp with loot. You fuckers singlehandedly did more damage to pvp than any number of carebears ever could!

[Nija]

If you released UO today, everyone would still go to Trammel.  If Trammel wasn't in, they would go to WoW.

In trammel, you can mine ore. With ore you can make a breastplate that gives a defense value of 30. If you are really good at working with ore to form metal, and shaping metal in general you can make an exceptional breastplate that provides a defense value of 32.

In felucca, you can mine ore too. In felucca, you can mine up exceptional types of ore, if you're really good at harvesting ore. Valorite ore will make a breastplate that provides a defense value of 34. An exceptionally crafted valorite breastplate will offer a defense value of 36.

Copy/paste to every resource in UO and you have people in Felucca. Risk/reward.

[Furiously]

I'd love to see what percentage of people playing "old school" UO felt they were PvP'ing and what percentage thought they were just being prey to someone who had played a bit more then them...

I know I went into the game expecting to be a knight, protecting Britania, I didn't expect to be put smack down in "LA Gang warz - extreme!"

I do wish I could go back today and play with the right expectations. Because I really do enjoy PvP, but UO was never about PvP for me, it was about getting stomped down every hour before I could ever build myself up.

[Arthur_Parker]

Riggswolfe the point I was making was the term was originally meant as an insult to mean "you don't like pvp", even when first used.  The fact that the first people it was directed at, used a clever and humiliating pvp tactic to embrace the insult doesn't change the original intent nor what the term is commonly accepted to mean.  Carebears are cute cuddly and come in different bright colours.