Yarr, guildless!

[pants]

thinking I left this kind of bullshit back in jr high,

Its always worth remembering that a lot of WoW's players are still in jr high - I freaked out a PUG I was in the other day when I said I had to afk coz my baby was having a hissy fit.  Turned out I was the only one in the group old enough to legally have sex.  That was freaky for everyone involved (except for my daughter, who went to sleep after having her nappy changed).

[Azazel]

YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID,

"STOP SAYING GAY FOR THE NEXT 30 MINUTES NOW OR YOU WILL BE SILENCED FOR 60 MINUTES."
"STOP SAYING GAY FOR THE NEXT 30 MINUTES NOW OR YOU WILL BE SILENCED FOR 60 MINUTES."
"STOP SAYING GAY FOR THE NEXT 30 MINUTES NOW OR YOU WILL BE SILENCED FOR 60 MINUTES."
"STOP SAYING GAY FOR THE NEXT 30 MINUTES NOW OR YOU WILL BE SILENCED FOR 60 MINUTES."

Then people would have listened.

dude, dont be such a fag.

thinking I left this kind of bullshit back in jr high,

Its always worth remembering that a lot of WoW's players are still in jr high

Aside from that, way too many adults never really outgrow the high school mentality. Gossip, backbiting, infighting, drama for it's own sake/cheap entertainment. Meh.

[Morat20]

thinking I left this kind of bullshit back in jr high,

Its always worth remembering that a lot of WoW's players are still in jr high - I freaked out a PUG I was in the other day when I said I had to afk coz my baby was having a hissy fit.  Turned out I was the only one in the group old enough to legally have sex.  That was freaky for everyone involved (except for my daughter, who went to sleep after having her nappy changed).

The guildies I tend to run 5-mans with? Almost all play as a husband/wife pair. So you usually get "Only X is on TS. So-and-so can hear it over his speakers" and "Oh shit, the dog just barfed and the baby's crying. Can we take a break?" a lot.

MC raids were fun. Our raid leader would joke after wipes, and no one gave a shit. Everyone chipped in to pay for the tank and whichever hunter was pulling's repair costs, if it had been a rough night. I couldn't handle a catass guild -- if you can't laugh at shit, how is it a game?

[Lantyssa]

Was Alleria one of the servers that was (is?)  offering free transfers to Farstriders.  I moved there recently from Kirin Tor for free, and I love it.  There's a couple guilds you could get into that would likely meet your raiding needs.

Someone else was on Kirin Tor and I didn't know it? :-(

[ajax34i]

I played on Kirin Tor for a while, too.  Earthen Ring before that.  Alliance side both times.  Both were 5-6 month stints with several months of break from the game in between.  A while ago.

[Lantyssa]

I am still there if anyone comes by.  Lantyssa (of course), Tsukihana, and Kalindriel are my most played characters.

I probably did get a little too emotional with the crying, but when it comes down to it I was hurt and had put up with too much bullshit over the course of 2 months with this guild and probably should have quit long ago. I didn't warn them before I squelched them. I just said " That's it" and did it. They were being assholes about it and I'm not going to put up with them taking shots at me on a personal level in the guild chat when I simply asked them to stop after I had been trying to ignore it and got tired of it. Everything else that Mer said was right though. I wasn't even being a bitch about it. But oh well, as Mer said fuck them. It pissed me off the way they talked about Mer and how they didn't even give a shit about him /gquitting no one even said shit in gchat after he did it.

Being in a leadership position for a guild you care about will make you emotional.  There is nothing wrong with it.  Those of us that try to make it a somewhat family-like environment will always clash with those around who simply wish to advance themselves.  I've been there, I've cried my heart out, and it made me wary of ever being an officer, much less the guild leader, again.

I would say you were well within your rights, especially with the way the guild leaders were ignoring the social problems as Merusk says.  As one of the resident queer board members, I really appreciate the stance you took.  Thank you!

[WindupAtheist]

I'm rather pro-active when it comes to preserving the peace in my guild.  We had one of those "Look I'm a real girl!" wannabe guild-princess MMO drama slut types hanging around when I came back to WoW.  I flirted with her enough to take screenshots of her shit-talking her other e-boyfriends and telling me how she wanted "power" and then I ran her out of the guild.

Don't get me wrong.  I get along great with the other women in the guild.  They all have social lives and aren't trying to use our guild as some sort of attention-buffet.  But that type?  Our guild leader thinks the same way I do, and we have no use for that shit.

[lamaros]

Funny thing is that shit happens to so many "casual" guildleaders and also regular people. Your wife seems to have gotten in a little deep, emotionally though.

No, she didn't get too involved.   I've been in a guild where the leader was in some sort of on-going feud with the leaders of another guild, and I've seen some screenshots of chats and the spam that he was subjected to, constantly; constant, pages upon pages, of outright swearing and veiled and direct insults will take a heavy toll on anyone, and you can't really guess at how much until you experience it yourself.  It's really nasty. 

My last WoW guild's drama also happened when the guild changed from "casual" to "raid-capable", and was also slowly over time.  People started being focused on raiding and loot, the recruitment happened too fast, cliques formed, and one of them tried to take over leadership.  Well, they actually succeeded, but when they reformed without the old leader, they lost the website, the DKP site, a sizeable chunk of the  guild, and a few experienced raid leaders.  They didn't last long.

Mate, if there are tears, then it's too deep. The moment a bunch of people act like cockmonkeys, you say "Fuck you cunts, I'm out of here. Have fun with your drama and bullshit."

Maybe you're not a very emotional person, but just because some people cry about things that annoy them does not mean it is "too deep". I get annoyed by bigots I see everywhere in my life - I don't like that kind of thing and won't tollerate it. If I'd been a long standing member in a guild and saw it get overrun by idiots, tried to fix it, and got abused for it I'd be upset. Maybe I wouldn't cry but then I'm a guy and guys aren't allowed to cry at anything, right??

Nor is there anything wrong with caring about people you get to know online. I feel sorry for you if you play games with other people online and dont actualy get anything from that interation. I play with a couple of people regulary in WoW that I don't know IRL and I keep in touch with them even though we've moved around and are in different guilds. One of them stopped playing recently and the others in our little group feel his absence.

[Azazel]

No, it's not about guys not being able to cry. It's more about perspective, which I got hit in the face with about 16 months ago, and quite frankly random people in a guild aren't worth that much emotion. I was quite close to the people in my EQ1 guild and others besides in that game. Much, much moreso than the random clusterfuck that most every WoW guild I've encountered has been. But you know what? People leave the game suddenly and then they're gone, so you're left with "a yeap, Lemmiwinks and I used to ROCK Gnomeregan. I wonder what happened to him?" Your example about the guy who stopped playing illustrates my point perfectly.

It's not that you can't get something out of the interaction with people in an MMO, it's just that they're overwhelmingly transitory friends and so it's not worth a deep emotional investment in them. It's not even like work buddies or friends from University because you can hang out with them in the real world

[Lantyssa]

Some of us have to learn the hard way I suppose.

I doubt I shall ever be as invested in a guild as the one which taught me that lesson, however I have some very dear friends I met through online games.  And no matter what I do, I will get emotional if a guild I have enjoyed playing with disintegrates beneath me.

[Merusk]

People online are as transatory as you want them to be.   I met Naraa online, we're married now.  We've got friends we've kept in touch with for the last 7 years through games and not.   Crying is the way some folks relieve stress, particularly women.  Were you to perhaps spend more time around women you might understand this, because as I recall you're fairly young and unmarried so I chalk your attitude up to inexperience. 

Anywho, thanks all for the support.  I shake my head going back and reading it all.  Yeah, perhaps I should have left earlier, but there were some very good folks there despite the asshats.  I feel bad for them still sticking with it, but I can understand that they either don't see it or are too afraid to leave because they would miss their friends.   Honestly, I'm over the whole affair and more dissapointed in the other officers who sent me tells saying they agreed with our position, but then failed to act or comment in any meaningful way.

Like Jayce mentioned, I think mostly it was a case of believing things would get better, combined with growing way too fast and pushing way too hard.   Naraa and I are checking out your guild, Dren, and we'll discuss it later.  Don't feel like you're 'too small'  because, honestly guilds that were doing ZG and such are just about 'right sized' these days.  Add in a few Shaman/ Pallies and poof, the same guild is doing the "Uber" content now. ;)  (Just behind the curve - which at Blizzard's pace of new content can only be a good thing.)

[Azazel]

People online are as transatory as you want them to be.   I met Naraa online, we're married now.  We've got friends we've kept in touch with for the last 7 years through games and not.   Crying is the way some folks relieve stress, particularly women.  Were you to perhaps spend more time around women you might understand this, because as I recall you're fairly young and unmarried so I chalk your attitude up to inexperience. 

No, you have me horribly confused with someone else. I'm in my 30's, professionally employed, and have a wife who I play WoW with which I've mentioned numberous times in parts of this forum, (though not this thread). I think it's great that the two of you met online, as I said, not every online friendship or relationship is transitory, but you'd have to agree that the vast majority are. I do find the "spend more time around women" comment to be presumptuous and insulting though, not to mention laughable. Thanks for that.

It's certainly not a case of "wanting" them to be transitory but in fact something that's come from the experience of playing MMOGs for something like 7 or 8 years now, and seeing a great many people come and go, including those who I once had "good friendships" with. As I said, people leave, and then they're gone. Usually forever. It's not worth a deep emotional investment. Here I'll make a (possibly totally wrong) assumption about you, that you're in your twenties and that WoW is your first major MMOG and chalk your attitude up to inexperience. I will slso suggest that once you've had someone as close to you as your wife suddenly die, then that will give you a fucking big dose of perspective when it comes to random motherfuckers you'll never meet from MMOGs versus the people close to you in your real life. Don't worry, you might understand this when you're older. 

And despite my hostile tone here, which I will point out is a direct result of your assumptions and quoted text above, you both sound like nice people and did the right thing by leaving, albeit later than you should have.

[Azazel]

As an addendum. Meeting someone "online" can mean anything from in a MMOG, to a social chat room, to a dating website and so on and so forth. MMOs are a very different social situation to something like a singles website.

As an additional addendum, I'm not saying you shouldn'tt have online friends and enjoy your time with them. I'm saying don't get too emotionally attatched to them because 80%+ of them will stop playing/leave your guild/server transfer/etc and disappear one day (or you'll stop playing) and that will be that, while 15% of them will have a sudden change of personality and become deranged lootwhores or go on a power trip or some fucking thing. Not to mention the numerous people that aren't worth your time to begin with anyway. As you've experienced already.

[ajax34i]

And despite my hostile tone here, which I will point out is a direct result of your assumptions and quoted text above, you both sound like nice people and did the right thing by leaving, albeit later than you should have.

Look, neither you nor Merusk or Naraa need pointers about how to behave in online communities, which is how you (originally) responded.  Most of the other responses were ones of empathy and welcomes to the forum, and I think that was more appropriate for the discussion that was happening.

[Azazel]

Sure. As I pointed out though, a set of insulting and incorrect assumptions and a condescending tone is what caused my partial change in tone. Please note that I didn't actually go so far as to tell Merusk to fuck off or any of that kind of stuff though, as despite being insulted by his specific post, I do like the guy and often find myself agreeing with his posts. I've even maintained an attitude of "you guys seem much better than those fuckers".

The stuff about meeting online can have many meanings isn't a presumption or speculation on how they met, but is simply a dry comment on the fact that different online communities gather for very different reasons, and have very different tones. (compare the average f13 thread to your guildchat). Or to put it another way, "we met online" can mean as many different things as "we met through a friend" can. They can even be the same thing. 

One other clarification, that perhaps will help to explain my own attitude. Aside from the unpleasant thing I mentioned a couple of posts above regarding perspective, the other thing that's important to mention here is that I play with my wife who also happens to by my best friend. Compared to that, all other ingame-only relationships don't even come close enough to be in the same sport, let alone the same ballpark. My RL friends and such who also play with us are a different matter entirely.

[lamaros]

As an addendum. Meeting someone "online" can mean anything from in a MMOG, to a social chat room, to a dating website and so on and so forth. MMOs are a very different social situation to something like a singles website.

As an additional addendum, I'm not saying you shouldn'tt have online friends and enjoy your time with them. I'm saying don't get too emotionally attatched to them because 80%+ of them will stop playing/leave your guild/server transfer/etc and disappear one day (or you'll stop playing) and that will be that, while 15% of them will have a sudden change of personality and become deranged lootwhores or go on a power trip or some fucking thing. Not to mention the numerous people that aren't worth your time to begin with anyway. As you've experienced already.

I can apply pretty much everything you've said to people I meet IRL too. The fact you want to make 'online' and 'real' social behaviour subject to different rules baffles me.

Perhaps because you're old you dont understand this technology thing! (Everyone can do cheap shots! Take your own advice and don't get worked up over this 'online' discussion)

[Azazel]

No, I'm not applying different rules. Online I'm as friendly and affable as I am with anyone else. But I just don't get as emotionally invested with Zengar the warrior who I chat with while we're concentrating on foozle whacking as I do with someone I know and maintain a real-life friendship with where the focus isn't foozle-whacking. I will grant you that you're correct that pretty much what you quoted there can be applied to many RL people as well, though there's less of it in my personal experience, and it's also much easier to maintain contact with RL friends than e-friends. Chalk it up to me valuing real-life friendships and relationships more highly than those with people I'll never meet, if you like. Works ok for me. 

In case you're not watching, despite the tone, my own "cheap shot" to Merusk was essentially tongue-in-cheek, hence the preface that my assumption was likely incorrect. That was the point of it really. Anyway, shouldn't you be in bed by now, whippersnapper?

[ajax34i]

Well, MMOG relationships are usually "transitory" in that they don't last more than the few months that you're playing, for most people.  They can be as intense as RL relationships, though, and of course there are a lot of transitory RL relationships too.  We should probably not compare marriage to online relationships; let's compare RL relationships with coworkers and/or temporary acquaintances to online relationships, because they have more in common.  In this case, I agree with lamaros, they're not that different.

Re: your wife, Azazel, sorry for your loss, and condolences.  I don't know you and am a complete stranger, but still, nobody should have to go through that.

[Azazel]

Well, MMOG relationships are usually "transitory" in that they don't last more than the few months that you're playing, for most people.  They can be as intense as RL relationships, though, and of course there are a lot of transitory RL relationships too.  We should probably not compare marriage to online relationships; let's compare RL relationships with coworkers and/or temporary acquaintances to online relationships, because they have more in common.  In this case, I agree with lamaros, they're not that different.

Re: your wife, Azazel, sorry for your loss, and condolences.  I don't know you and am a complete stranger, but still, nobody should have to go through that.

Yes, I'd say they have much more in common with workmates or schoolmates, but with less chance to carryover into long-term friendhsips by virtue of their online-only nature.

I may have confused you slightly there though. My brother was the one who died (we played EQ together for years), my wife is alive and well and still plays (WoW) with me. if something happens to her, I'll top myself.  I would say though that my brother and I were so close that the only comparison I can make would be like someone's wife passing away. "Like brothers" isn't close enough to descibe the rapport we had, and so after that happened, well, any online friendship or relationship pales to total insignificance. Hence the big dose of perspective.

So, yeah, while I have in the past, I don't really get too concerned about what happens online in any MMOG guild anymore.   Merusk and Naraa clearly have something much more important than any guildmates or online friends. 

[Naraa]

Well again thanks for all the welcomes and shows of empathy and understanding. Actually Mer is in his early 30s, We have been married going on 9 years now with two children with colorful personalities to match to show for it. We met in an rpg chat room.  and I would have said it to those asshats but they quit before I had the chance to. I'm sorry for the loss of your brother though Azazel. I'm close to my little sister who is about 11 months younger than me and it bugs me even living on the other side of the country from her even if she does stupid shit every now and again.

Believe me the pleasure was mine Lantyssa. My parents weren't perfect but I'd like to think they taught me what is appropriate when it comes to that sort of thing and I have very little patience or tolerance for that kind of stupidity.

As for Mer... want me to smack him?  :-D

[squirrel]

Well again thanks for all the welcomes and shows of empathy and understanding. Actually Mer is in his early 30s, We have been married going on 9 years now with two children with colorful personalities to match to show for it. We met in an rpg chat room.  and I would have said it to those asshats but they quit before I had the chance to. I'm sorry for the loss of your brother though Azazel. I'm close to my little sister who is about 11 months younger than me and it bugs me even living on the other side of the country from her even if she does stupid shit every now and again.

Believe me the pleasure was mine Lantyssa. My parents weren't perfect but I'd like to think they taught me what is appropriate when it comes to that sort of thing and I have very little patience or tolerance for that kind of stupidity.

As for Mer... want me to smack him?  :-D

Welcome yourself wife of Merusk :p

We're all too old and experienced to put up with that kind of asshatery (um, add that to spellcheck!) so good on you folks for bailing. I'm on Stormscale so no help guildwise. And if you plan on hanging out at f13 I assume Mer has prepped you that we have our own distinct asshat tendency's?

Good hunting.

[Zetor]

Interesting read... and seems to be sadly indicative of the state of most "serious" raiding guilds in WOW nowadays. :/ Good on ya for leaving the asshats behind!

My guild is fairly small (about 15-ish active members right now), but we've been (almost completely) drama free since 1997. I've found that cross-game guilds tend to fare better with member retention / stability, simply because at one point the members have to choose the guild over a particular game...

.. but we don't raid or do any of that "hardcore" stuff. Well, unless doing tier0.5 (valthalak needs to die in a Large Brilliant Shard fire), random pvp groups and helping out our lowbies / alts and just messing around in general counts. Though, we might just do Karazhan at one point, since it's a 10-man dungeon and all. (ditto with heroic mode instances)


-- Z.

[Naraa]

Yeah I know bout the posts here. Mer has read a few to me or made some other commentary bout them before. 

[Ironwood]

If he suggested that we're not respectful and polite, he's a fucking lying douchebag.

[Shavnir]

My guild drips drama, probably not a week goes by without some drama brewing up in the (increasingly incredibly racist) gchat.  Since its inception in Alpha we've had no less than 4 major splinters, each forming full raid guilds that invariably (with one exception) have fallen apart.  Our raiding style is roughly akin to a 5 year old putting change in a vending machine, you're going to get a soda out sooner or later but god knows which one, how many tries and jesus he just put a banana in the slot how does that work?

I wouldn't give it up for the world.   

[Dren]

Yeah I know bout the posts here. Mer has read a few to me or made some other commentary bout them before. 

Just stay out of Politics.  That path holds madness.


Madness, I tell you.

[Valmorian]

More MMO Drama stories please, I love this stuff..

[Furiously]

Online relationships/guildmates are what you make of them. I live in Seattle, WA and I have 2 very good friends that live in Detroit - I met them in Cazic Thule while playing EQ. I've been to both of their weddings. We've been in about 5 guilds together, currently they are part of a guild of people from mostly Michigan. I used to fly through Detroit a ton for work and if it was on a Friday, I'd extend my layover and spend the weekend with them playing games. It's like real life - you just have to make an effort to make it a worthwile connection.

[Naraa]

Nah anything Mer has said isn't bad ..and I avoid politics if I can help it.

[Xanthippe]

As for Mer... want me to smack him?  :-D

I do!  I do! 

Do it! 

(and welcome).

[WindupAtheist]

Finally replied to that PM, Az.  I never use them so I never check them.  Oops.

[Paelos]

Interesting stuff about the guild. I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head about two big things that will always cause problems in any guild that decides they want to raid.

1) Lax recruiting - garbage in, garbage out. It's an adage that's as old as time itself, and it plays out in guilds that fold constantly.
2) Related Officers - my view on this may cause a problem with some, but I believe you can never have two people who are related, engaged, dating, or married in a leadership position in a guild. I know it sounds insane, but when you have people that closely connected in charge, a conflict can become much more emotional than rational very very quickly. They also tend to consult each other outside of the leadership, vote together, and cause discention with the other leaders over real or imaginary "collaborations." In short, it's not worth the hassle to have two people that closely connected in a position of power in a large guild.

Note, this might come off that I'm saying Merusk was wrong for leaving, which he wasn't. The situation in his guild stemmed directly from terrible recruiting and a complete shift in focus, coupled with an ivory tower mentality. However, I'm saying that there is absolutely no way that a married couple in charge can remain individually objective in another situation. I've known a great man in my alliance who was married to one of the most horrible personalities I've seen in online games. They were both in charge and his personality which could have been used for the greater good was constantly corrupted by trying to pacify her insane tendancies. Then there is another scenario where I had to boot a member over a breakup with his girlfriend because we wouldn't throw her out of the guild. Then, there was another situation where a divorce caused a haves and have-nots schism that splintered off the guild into two guilds.

In short, never put two people in charge who are intimately involved. It's a fucking headache.

[Azazel]

It's been an odd week. I'm seeing posts from Krakrok and now Paelos that I basically agree with.  :-D

The lax recruiting point is a huge one. The majority of WoW's guilds being "invite that guy" revolving doors doesn't help that, either.

However, I'm saying that there is absolutely no way that a married couple in charge can remain individually objective in another situation.

There's quite a lot of those around. Soulbound on PM was like that, well, except that I didn't get into any of their poilitics so I don't know if they were loopy at all.

I've known a great man in my alliance who was married to one of the most horrible personalities I've seen in online games. They were both in charge and his personality which could have been used for the greater good was constantly corrupted by trying to pacify her insane tendancies.

2 things:

Who and which guild?

You don't have to answer that of course, but please ask them (or him):

Did they play EQ1 on Brell in the past, and were they known as Saph dia and Phar ma from SOH?

[Paelos]

Wow, Azazel and I agree. That is a banner post.  :-D

The guild on PM in question was called The Order. It's now known as the Order of Exiles. They were part of the PMA (Proudmoore Alliance) which I am a "silent leader" in now that I am the MT but got tired of the political bullshit. OoE left, the woman and man in charge went into new guilds, and life moved on. The man was one of my co-raid leaders, and the woman was in charge of the forums and general police work. Essentially in the end, she screwed over a person on one of her smallers raids because of a petty dispute in chat, even though he had the #1 DKP and attendance on the raid. She sidelined him, I took exception as the MT, shitstorm brewed, blah blah blah. Keep in mind I'm basically doing this MC run in full BWL gear as a favor to help out the new folks and that the guy she banned was the OT, and you get a greater picture of how ridiculous it all was. BTW, the great man was my co-leader in BWL.

In answer to the second part, they didn't ever play EQ.

EDIT: I should add that my memory of these issues sucks, that I was never a part of OoE, and that my own personal guild is a family organization inside the PMA. However, the PMA is basically our larger guild and I refer to it as such. That's the gist.

[Triforcer]

I like to think of this site as a giant WoW guild.  There are the guild regulars deeply immersed in guild politics, accusations of favoritism, the ones who raid with us once every two months yet everyone likes, and the people who never raid but sit in Org all day and talk shit on /gchat until they are ran out.  (Then they form their own guild which fails and come back under an alt).  Overseeing it all is Schild's level 70 Paladin.