Vanguard: Round 1 - FIGHT!

[Nebu]

Post-Kunark, the design heavily favored trinity gameplay. I don't mind if the race-to-the-enders develop gameplay methods. It's when the design then changes to reflect that niche mindset and it becomes the norm.

I played EQ A LOT until shortly after Velious came out.  The trinity that I know of (cleric, enchanter, warrior) existed LONG before that among the trailblazing guilds.  Technically, the ideal setup at that time always included cleric, enchanter, warrior, and (evac)... more of a tetrad.

[Trouble]

The more difficult an encounter, the tighter the requirements are for who can complete it. Yeah you can make plenty of easy encounters that don't require you to have the holy trinity but the whole point is you need to make something that's hard as hell to fit the difficulty vs. reward. At least in the setup of WoW and EQ and anything like them, I can't think of any way besides creating custom encounters for every group/solo makeup or simply relying on the holy trinity/all classes/bigger groups. I can't comment on CoH because I have limited experience and i haven't spent a great deal of time thinking of the mechanics of a game where everyone is a hybrid.

[Sky]

Post-Kunark, the design heavily favored trinity gameplay. I don't mind if the race-to-the-enders develop gameplay methods. It's when the design then changes to reflect that niche mindset and it becomes the norm.

I played EQ A LOT until shortly after Velious came out.  The trinity that I know of (cleric, enchanter, warrior) existed LONG before that among the trailblazing guilds.  Technically, the ideal setup at that time always included cleric, enchanter, warrior, and (evac)... more of a tetrad.

Right. I played A LOT, too :) I was the first wizard to level 30 on my server after launch. I sold him at level 32, but...

My point being that the game didn't really require trinity play except for the very highest end stuff (Phinny, planes, dragons). It wasn't easy, but as I've mentioned, we had our all-wizard group. Lots of rooting (dedicated rooters, actually) and quick nuking down of any caster. The old 3..2..1..nuke insta-death opener was always fun.

[Venkman]

Which is really what I was saying. The Trinity was not a requirement at launch. It was defined as ideal by endgamers long (relatively) after. THEN the game was designed around Trinities (I thought it came more in PoP, but it I now agree it was more SoV, the Vision(tm)'s last stab before they left). THEN it became the curse word that inspired feature lists in all games that followed.

[Trippy]

Which is really what I was saying. The Trinity was not a requirement at launch. It was defined as ideal by endgamers long (relatively) after. THEN the game was designed around Trinities (I thought it came more in PoP, but it I now agree it was more SoV, the Vision(tm)'s last stab before they left). THEN it became the curse word that inspired feature lists in all games that followed.

Actually Verant/SOE tried to nerf the Trinity in Velious and Luclin by making it *much* harder to mez many of the Velious and Luclin mobs. They learned from Kurnak that mez was screwing up their carefully designed dungeons. Enchanters were still "mandatory", however, given that they had the best haste, the second best slow (behind Shamans) and of course they had the best crack in the game (well technically Bards had better crack but that was only if that was all they twisted all the time) so SOE couldn't kill off the Trinity while I was still playing.

[Falconeer]

Here's the grind-killer patch.

Highlights:

- More xp from mobs.
- Even more xp from group and dungeon mobs.
- Before the patch succesfully completing a Corpse Run gave back 75% of your lost XP. Now you get 100% back.
- Addition of 3 new zones.
- More stuff and major class balancing.

[Trippy]

- Before the patch succesfully completing a Corpse Run gave back 75% of your lost XP. Now you get 100% back.

LOLers.

[Lt.Dan]

- Before the patch succesfully completing a Corpse Run gave back 75% of your lost XP. Now you get 100% back.

LOLers.

I thought you already got 100% back.  I did pre-patch - when I died one pixel from level 13 I got the whole lot back when I looted my tombstone.

[Falconeer]

I thought so too Dan, but it wasn't the case. I finally noticed it when I installed a custom UI with XP expressed in numbers.

[trias_e]

Well, specifically it doesn't say that, although it may still be the case.

"- When you recover your tombstone after a death, instead of the returned experience bringing you to a total no higher than where you died at, you will now receive the full amount of experience stored on the tombstone, even if you've already done some adventuring since you died."

It seems like the problem was with completing a quest or killing some mobs before getting your corpse back.

I hope the fact that there are no changes to the monk means that we are a-ok!  : )

: /

The increased xp is a good thing.  The increased group xp is an even better thing.  Now leveling up an alt might not seem so prohibitive.

[Trippy]

Okay that's not LOLers anymore -- that's just a sloppy coding bug that was fixed.

[Falconeer]

Uhm, you could be right, and I could be an idiot.
Reading it now from another perspective looks like they only fixed the bug (which I never noticed) where you gained xp before getting your corpse back and then not getting all the benefits from recovering your grave.

Boo then.

I was misled by it being in the "Gameplay notes" instead of generic bug fixes.

Double boo.

[Venkman]

Vision: Turning Bugs into Features since 1997

[Alkiera]

Which is really what I was saying. The Trinity was not a requirement at launch. It was defined as ideal by endgamers long (relatively) after. THEN the game was designed around Trinities (I thought it came more in PoP, but it I now agree it was more SoV, the Vision(tm)'s last stab before they left). THEN it became the curse word that inspired feature lists in all games that followed.

Actually Verant/SOE tried to nerf the Trinity in Velious and Luclin by making it *much* harder to mez many of the Velious and Luclin mobs. They learned from Kurnak that mez was screwing up their carefully designed dungeons. Enchanters were still "mandatory", however, given that they had the best haste, the second best slow (behind Shamans) and of course they had the best crack in the game (well technically Bards had better crack but that was only if that was all they twisted all the time) so SOE couldn't kill off the Trinity while I was still playing.

They've mostly managed to do it (in EQ1) now.  For groups, you can either get KEI which runs for 3+ hours, or get inexpensive potions that are equivilent.  Haste from shamans is almost as good, haste from potions is inexpensively available.  CC is only so necesary, most grouping is done outdoors,  or in limited dungeons where you can easily root-park or harmony/FD pull.

Aside from that, there are so many people multi-boxing in that game now, it's nuts.  I'm close to quitting because nearly every time I'm on, guild 'groups' consist of 2 actual players, each playing 3 characters.  WTH is wrong with these people?

--
Alkiera

[Sky]

WTH is wrong with these people?

That's what I want to name my tv show.

[Trippy]

Aside from that, there are so many people multi-boxing in that game now, it's nuts.  I'm close to quitting because nearly every time I'm on, guild 'groups' consist of 2 actual players, each playing 3 characters.  WTH is wrong with these people?

Heh, that's how I played back in the day. I "soloed" with my stable of characters unless there were people in my guild that needed a group in which case I would make slots available for however many people wanted to group. Or if somebody needed a single group to do something like get an Epic quest drop they could just find me and we could do it as a "duo".

[Riggswolfe]

http://pc.ign.com/articles/768/768439p1.html

IGN reviewed it and gave it a decent score. Higher than it deserves I think from all I've heard.

[Nebu]

http://pc.ign.com/articles/768/768439p1.html

IGN reviewed it and gave it a decent score. Higher than it deserves I think from all I've heard.

If the guy had played the game long enough and with a more critical eye, he would have given Vanguard a lower score.  There are so many glaring flaws in the game that were left out of this review, perhaps intentionally. 

[Simond]

You think that po$$ibly $OE had $ome $ort of influence on the $ub$stance of that $pecific review?

[Falconeer]

Gamespy(Fileplanet/IGN) has been oddly forgiving with Vanguard since before launch (and the Fileplanet beta).
So yes they are biased.

That said, the game has 1998 flaws but is not bad at all. A rating of 7-minus would be more appropriated in my opinion, especially after last patch.

[trias_e]

I'd give the game a 7.5 for early level play.  But again, I've not had many bugs to deal with.  The gameplay's more interesting than early level WoW's, at least for some classes.

That said, that's a pretty poor review.

[Falconeer]

Jolt followed up with a review rating Vanguard 7.4.
Not bad. Looks like you wrote it, Trias.

[Ixxit]

I'd give the game a 7.5 for early level play.  But again, I've not had many bugs to deal with.  The gameplay's more interesting than early level WoW's, at least for some classes.

That was pretty much my experience as well.  I'm not playing beyond the included  free month, but if Sigil makes the mid game as cohesive and interesting as the first twelve levels as well as tweak the performance, I'll definatley re-up at some point, even though  I  am loathe to even give whatever fraction of the monthly fee to Sony.

[Venkman]

The problem with MMO reviews is that the fight with deadlines. To seem "on top of things", publishers need to have reviews ready to go at launch. But it becomes quickly obvious which reporters were in for beta and played the game considerably versus those who ducked in with their free media pass for a few hours and got out.

I've never read a review for an MMO that just launched that couldn't be written off as either a funded puff piece or flat-out uninformed.

But then, I guess it doesn't matter. If someone's making a decision based on a magazine printing an MMO review, there's a good chance they wouldn't have checked out the game in the first place anyway.

[Simond]

Has the PC Zone review been posted here yet?

Five years in the making, Vanguard: Saga Of Heroes is the brainchild of an A-Team of MMO developers, including some major players from the development team of former genre-king EverQuest. Sadly, somewhere along the line this baby was dropped on its head, leading to a hollow, mind-numbingly dull MMORPG grind that stretches the boundaries of good taste and sensible design decisions.

Final score: 45%

[Falconeer]

Big Huge content and art update incoming, March 6th.

The fun part is that this is actually unfinished stuff being patched in. Still, looks almost like an expansion so I won't complain so much. At all.

Vanguard Update #1

Whether it be in the desert sands or the swamps of the Deadlands, Vanguard Update #1 brings you some dirty villains to fight, new weapons to kill them with, and new places to kill them in!

On Tuesday, March 6th 2007, Vanguard Update #1 will go live. It will be a much larger patch than usual as not only will there be new content but a great deal of additional art as well. Update #1 includes:

Dozens of new weapon models
Six brand new NPC races to battle
Two new mid to high level adventuring areas
Nine dungeons with revamped art and/or lighting

Details are below!

New Weapons

Below are just a few examples of some of the new weapon models that are included.

[....images....]

New NPC Races

The Djinn
The legend of the djinn revolves around an unremarkable lamp with the power to grant the owner three wishes…with a catch. Any wish that the djinn grants, an equal but opposite effect will afflict one whom the lamp owner loves. An old Qalian king discovered one such lamp buried deep beneath the endless dunes in a long forgotten palace. Using a powerful magical artifact, the king bent the will of the djinn within the lamp to grant unlimited wishes. The djinn granted any wish the king demanded and watched as the king became overcome by the power of the lamp. The desire to rule over his kingdom, expand his empire, bolster his armies, and even to live gradually faded away until the djinn was able to overpower the weakened king. The agenda of the djinn is unknown, but the story makes it clear that the djinn’s charisma, graciousness, and generosity are surpassed by only the malevolence that unveils itself once the king’s soul became enslaved.


The Mnalus
The mnalus reside around the temple of Hegnerian, deep within the Gorgalog swamps of Thestra. Relatively new to the world of Telon, these beings came into existence after the wrath of Hegnerian subsided. Possessing predatory instincts, cunning wit, and immense magical capabilities, these fungus creatures are a surprisingly powerful force. The land in which they inhabit quickly warps and contorts as healthy land is torn away to make room for the venomous mushrooms which sprout and grow to massive proportions in a matter of days. Extremely territorial, these creatures attack anything which invades their land. The other civilizations within the swamp are seemingly powerless to contend with the fungus and their incredible capability to slaughter with physical and magical combat.


 The Mudmen
There is debate amongst the academic community as to the nature of these strange creatures.  Some claim that these “men of mud” were created by a mad wizard in ages long past, others claim that they naturally sprung forth from their environments.  Whatever the case, Telon is home to a variety of these strange mud-like creatures.  Ranging from small pests to massive oily behemoths, the mud men can be found throughout Telon not only in swampy, muddy areas but also in the depths of ancient caverns.


 The Sand Giants
Descended from the giant explorers from Torsheim, the sand giants of Qalia are far less powerful than their ancient kin. Separated from the magical powers of the giant homeland for over a thousand years, the sand giants wander the desert wastes wreaking havoc upon all they encounter.  It is not unheard of for sand giants to be found amongst small mercenary bands, or as the cohorts of other more nefarious organizations. The sand giants themselves have no nation and no allegiances to anyone aside from those they choose for themselves.


The Ichtakhta
The ichtakhta are another civilization that quickly evolved after the wrath of Hegnerian. These beings possess vast psionic capabilities and very rarely converse with the use of underdeveloped vocal cords. While territorial, this species exhibits the desire to work and build relationships with those whom can increase the power of their civilization for little in return. Introverted by nature, the general populous of the ichtakhta rarely leave their awe-inspiring homes built within the coastal cliff sides. If the ichtakhta do leave their homeland, it would be to feed on the gorgaloks to the east or war with the mnalus to the south. Extremely adept in their mental capabilities, the ichtakhta have been witnessed expelling droves of enemies in all directions with a simple thought. Their hardened body grants them exceptional ability in physical combat as well, making it incredibly difficult to inflict damage upon them with contemporary weaponry.


The Xennu
Long ago the race of xennu possessed the most advanced technology Telon had ever seen. With devices powered by giant crystals excavated from deep beneath the ground, the xennu drew from almost limitless power.  And then, they were gone.  Only mysterious clues remain as to the fate of so many.  An intrepid group of gnomes believes the xennu sealed themselves in great vaults deep beneath Telon, and set guardians to watch over the key.  If only the peoples of Telon could uncover this vault, and the secrets that lie within…

Revamped Areas

Deep Swamp
Along with the rest of the Gorgalog swamp, this land was once filled with rich and flourishing forest. The war between the high elven sorcerer, Hegnerian, and the Cartheon Empire left the land in desolation from the sheer display of power that the sorcerer possessed. After the high elven sages of Leth Nurae managed to imprison Hegnerian within his temple, the once flourishing land begin to reshape itself and take on a new life. A civilization of insectoids, the ichtakhta, quickly evolved due to remnants of Hegnerian’s terrible magic that were scattered around his temple. Although a swamp, the land itself is rich with nutrients that feed all civilizations in the area. The palace of the ichtakhta civilization rests between the great cliffs and provides a vantage point to survey the lands surrounding them.


Gorgalog
The Gorgalog swamp encompasses much of southern Thestra. All of which used to be a flourishing woodland of high elven domain. After the great battle between the Cartheon Empire and the sorcerer Hegnerian, the woodland quickly gave way to the swamp of the Gorgalog. The swamp in this area stretches as far as the eye can see and provides little direction for travelers daring to venture into it.


Controlled by an amphibious race of beings, the gorgalok, the entire swamp is host to their hunt. As it stretches westward towards the gorgolok’s enemies, the ichtakhta, the desolate swamp becomes a battlefield littered with the casualties of the struggle between the two races. To the east remains the only remnants of the once great woodland and the home of the fearsome treants which provide, unwillingly, the wood to build the great fires for the gorgalok. The mnalus and their contagion exist to the south and are quickly spilling into the heart of the Gorgalog swamp.


Relit Dungeons

We also went through and greatly improved the lighting effects in some of our most popular dungeons. Below are a few examples.

Deep Swamp

Kalendra’s Coven

Nusibe Necropolis

Vol Tuniel

Lots of images in that post, if you want to check out.

[Merusk]

The Cynic in me says that IS the expansion, and they were told "Patch it in, you don't have enough subs to justify pressing CDs."

[Nebu]

More mob types and high level content that was absent at release.  This isn't a pseudo-expansion, it's game pieces that couldn't get slapped into the "game" by the rushed release date. 

Go go electronic duct tape.

[Trippy]

You would think they could come up with some better names for the races and places. Those are the kinds of names we used to make up when playing AD&D in middle school.

[Sky]

You would think they could come up with some better names for the races and places. Those are the kinds of names we used to make up when playing AD&D in middle school.

To be fair, they are basically trying to make D&D online. I mean, mind flayers and whatnot.

[Engels]

In a sense, this is an emergency patch; people are tearing throught he content as it is, and you can't have that type of player bored. Its the same mentality that goverened EQ, for better or worse. The actual problems with the game that make us refined and fancy people stay away will be ironed out over the course of years, not months.

I'd like to say that over all the game has improved since release, but its a 3 steps forward, 2 steps back type of improvement; for every memory leak plugged, another glaring set of bugs emerge, or even reemerge. To those of us who've had to reboot the game twice in the course of our 2 hour play window, it seems unacceptable. To the ADD chronic power player, its a minor inconvenience if he's just been linked the next droolable sword in guild chat.

I'm still in it, largely because of a reunion with my old dear EQ friends who I've not played with since their exodus to WoW. If I were on my own, I'd have gone back to single player games again.

[Ixxit]

You would think they could come up with some better names for the races and places. Those are the kinds of names we used to make up when playing AD&D in middle school.

To be fair, they are basically trying to make D&D online. I mean, mind flayers and whatnot.

Make the  Xennu  a player race and I'll resub in a flash.  I wanna be a mind flaya' playa' .

Giving credit where credit is due, that's a mighty fine model.

[Trippy]

You would think they could come up with some better names for the races and places. Those are the kinds of names we used to make up when playing AD&D in middle school.

To be fair, they are basically trying to make D&D online. I mean, mind flayers and whatnot.

Make the The Xennu  a player race and I'll resub in a flash.  I wanna be a mind flaya' playa' .

Giving credit where credit is due, that's a mighty fine model.

Wait the Xennus are mind flayers? So the best Sigil could do to rename mind flayers is to rip off Scientology?
 

[Sky]

Not just mind flayers, but they look just like the miniature I painted in the early 90s, which was almost exactly the mini I painted in the early 80s, which was almost exactly the picture in the monster manual from the late 70s. So, nice creativity bringing us a fresh take on mind flayers (I admit I'm a flayer fan).

[Ixxit]

Holy shit, there is such thing as a mind flaya' playa'

http://www.dragoncon.org/photos03/masq/image_data/masqerade038.jpg