Vanguard: Round 1 - FIGHT!

[Hound]

Different strokes for different folks it seems. In another game that is in beta they were/are not having any XP loss but one of the death penalties they came up was not very popular in it's initial implementation. I made the mistake of saying they needed to go to the XP loss on a thread and you would have thought I had proposed capital punishment judging from the response. I personally can handle a reasonable amount of XP debt or loss, but todays average gamer equates it to a ass raping it seems.

[Tmon]

I suppose you may be right. For whatever reason, though, I've always viewed it as "Meh, I'll just whack a few more foozles and be done with it". Its money loss that kills me, probably because its where I struggle the most in MMOs. Just seems like XP is everywhere (Wherever there's a mob... everywhere) and money is in select places like high level raids and non soloable stuff. The XP is easily returned, the money is not.

I don't know if you played the original release version of EQ, but losing a level due to xp loss on death was not a generally a matter of wacking a few more foozles.  It could take days to regain your level, especially if you insisted on trying to solo a warrior up.  I quit EQ about 6 months after release and I still sometimes catch myself thinking " better kill a few more to lock in the level" after one of my WOW tunes levels up.  If the point of the game is to gain levels then delaying your progress is much more palatable than stopping it or worst yet reversing it.

[Falconeer]

If the point of the game is to gain levels then delaying your progress is much more palatable than stopping it or worst yet reversing it.

Point of the game is not just gain levels. Otherwise the game would end as soon as you hit top level.

[Rithrin]

I don't know if you played the original release version of EQ, but losing a level due to xp loss on death was not a generally a matter of wacking a few more foozles.  It could take days to regain your level, especially if you insisted on trying to solo a warrior up.  I quit EQ about 6 months after release and I still sometimes catch myself thinking " better kill a few more to lock in the level" after one of my WOW tunes levels up.  If the point of the game is to gain levels then delaying your progress is much more palatable than stopping it or worst yet reversing it.

Heh I played EQ1 for a very long time, for better or for worse. Yes losing your level was certainly an issue, but it wasn't by any means as bad as you make it out to me. In the 50's (I admit, I didn't play when they upped the level cap past that) dying was usually a couple days of casual grouping XP. In WoW, though, I once had to spend about four/five hours just grinding to get back the money I lost repairing items during the course of a bad instance run, though, and purchasing food. Not several days of time, but still. With losing XP I'm backpedaling as far as progress goes, but if I run out of money progress grinds to a halt.

And just to add here... I still remember dinging to lvl 9 as my first Ranger in EQ1. I was so excited to test out my new spells and to flaunt them to my warrior friend that I pulled some nasties and, even though I was sure my spells would get me out alive, lost my level. To this day I remember how ironic that was, and it set apart that level from all the other "oh ding, whatever" levels. I'm not saying only XP loss can do that, but that sort of memory can only come from a loss of some sort.

[Morat20]

Heh I played EQ1 for a very long time, for better or for worse. Yes losing your level was certainly an issue, but it wasn't by any means as bad as you make it out to me. In the 50's (I admit, I didn't play when they upped the level cap past that) dying was usually a couple days of casual grouping XP. In WoW, though, I once had to spend about four/five hours just grinding to get back the money I lost repairing items during the course of a bad instance run, though, and purchasing food. Not several days of time, but still. With losing XP I'm backpedaling as far as progress goes, but if I run out of money progress grinds to a halt.

What? Did you wipe five times in full epics in Naxx or something? It's not until raids that multiple wipes costs you more than a gold or so.

And if you're dying multiple times on a Strat run -- and you in T1 or better gear -- most people would have found another group.

[Nebu]

I think that he was pointing out that, while an extreme case, WoW contains time sinks as well.

[Morat20]

I think that he was pointing out that, while an extreme case, WoW contains time sinks as well.

Yeah, it does. At the very high-end endgame. Molten Core is probably the first place where "learning" costs you even roughly the same amount of gold you'd make playing casually.

I logged on more or less just for MC raids and PvP, and even with wipes the only reason I was down cash-wise was ammo costs (I bought the ice-threarded stuff -- 2 gold a night right there).

[Murgos]

Heh I played EQ1 for a very long time, for better or for worse. Yes losing your level was certainly an issue, but it wasn't by any means as bad as you make it out to me. In the 50's (I admit, I didn't play when they upped the level cap past that) dying was usually a couple days of casual grouping XP.

That was after the lessened the pain of the death penalty.  Before they lowed the exp loss, which was about 3 months into live, I remember losing almost an entire level to 1 death.  In the late 20's.

Probably 98% of the people who played EQ never experienced that but it was ridiculous.

[Belce]

As an old EQ player from release, that once you got to be able to group with someone that could rez with exp return, that exp loss was usually returned later that night and that overall you would have a positive gain of exp for the time in game.  The people saying otherwise are the ones saying they had to walk up hill against the wind through feet of snow to school each day as kids.  They are not telling the truth. 

[Murgos]

The first exp return rez was at what?  35?  In those initial months after releae while the debt was still HUEG there just weren't that many people with that rez.  Even then that early rez only returned something like 50%.  I was the third or fourth warrior on my server to 50 and a lot of those groups were done with Shamen or Druids.  Exp returning rez's were not always available.

Rose colored glasses, natch.

[Venkman]

Yes losing your level was certainly an issue, but it wasn't by any means as bad as you make it out to me. In the 50's (I admit, I didn't play when they upped the level cap past that) dying was usually a couple days of casual grouping XP.

"A couple of days". That right there represents just how far this genre has come, both in games and in people. We put up with that crap (Christ, a couple of days) because this was new and interesting and we felt like we were on the cutting edge. But there's no way this'd be a multi-billion dollar business with tens of millions of players with the XP loss we could only sometimes control resulting in days lost. Insane just to think back on it.

Running to bind stones, paying for repairs, running back to the mob spawn locations, yes, those are all time lost as well. However, they can all be easily overcome through options ingame: Portaling/teleporting, twinking/lucky-sales-on-bazaar, speedyfeet buffs/teleporting. XP lost outside of the EQ1 clickstick really has no ingame way of being returned, and for a good chunk of early EQ1, clicksticks weren't common.

That's the rub really. It's analagous to combat mechanics in general. For every action there should be a counter. If you have XP loss, you need to have a counter or it's pure punitive time loss and sucky. Thankfully the genre has learned a lot since the early days.

[Margalis]

It only took me a couple of days to beat God of War on God Mode. I'm supposed to spend that same amount of time just recouping XP? No thanks.

[Rithrin]

I'm sorry if I made it sounds like a couple of days was okay and that we should put up with it. I merely meant to point out that it wasn't weeks like what he said. If the XP loss was merely 30 minutes to an hour of grouping it would be more akin to the penalties we're seeing nowadays. I'm just trying to say that if we keep the loss proportionate, I don't think most people would care in what form you lose it.

[Venkman]

Ok, yea, that's a valid point. Sorry to misinterpret. And yea, I never had weeks of EQ1 XP lost either unless I lost it and was AFK for a few weeks :)

I still prefer there be a system to get all of the XP back even if it means loss of another way. For example, if I could buy back the XP from a Cleric then that'd be fine. I'd be willing to pay the coin to do that, which is time loss itself, because at least I can get that back a few different ways (mob hunting, quests, bazaar-sales, etc). I just hate unrecoupable loss.

Point of the game is not just gain levels. Otherwise the game would end as soon as you hit top level.

That's part of the point though. Levels unlock abilities unlock customization unlock "new". People want that to continue at the top level, but they end up needing to play an entirely different game (Raiding, PvP, etc) to do it. And infinite levels don't work because players need that sense of "end" to shoot for. So other methods are used, but they're all about advancing to customize, just in a different form.

So while it's not just about gaining levels, it is about gaining at all.

[Sky]

Actually, each death in EQ1 did cause me to lose weeks of experience. My necro was level 54, and I don't have a lot of time to play. One day I died a couple times and lost almost all of level 54 which had taken me several months to work through. Levels 1-51 took a year, levels 52-54 took another year, mostly due to the death penalty and retardedly slow advancement (which would have been more acceptable except for the aforementioned penalty). Sure, I could've had a cleric around, but there's another timesink (in finding one every night I play or at least every time I die). There's no good reason imo to base so much of the core gameplay around timesinks!

Now Planetside, with mere tactical setbacks as a death penalty? Golden. You can have medics revive you, set up mobile spawn points. It's mmo done right. And so many more memorable moments packed into the game play.

Of course, my position is that death penalties themselves are stupid? Why do you need to be punished for playing a game? No other games are set up like that. Yet for mmo, god forbid you question penalizations! Whip me, beat me, call me sally.

[shiznitz]

Turning this back to VG for those who are still on the fence about picking it up, I had two good group experiences this weekend. Both were with my guild and full Ventrilo participation.

Level 11-13 characters in the Vault of Heroes
- Mobs are mostly 3-dot comparable to the group's level
- We saw a few named 4-dots that dropped blue or yellow loot. Common magic items are green.
- Mobs are largely cash poor so it is key in a group to have the loot settings ironed out.
- Large dungeon. We scratched the surface over two hours. We did get adds some times, but a full group fighting 3-dots shouldn't have any problems with out CC and we didn't.
- Back spawn was about 10 minutes and lots of wanderers so the dungeon pushes you to move. Camping in one place would not be as efficient, at least in this dungeon.

2-dot vs 3-dot vs 4-dot mobs
- The VG con system uses level and "dots." The first are soloable, the second are soloable for some classes but will gove good exp for small groups, the last if for full 6 person groups.
- 3 people fighting 3-dots get about the same exp as 6 fighting 4-dots but the 6 will get much better loot tables.
- The two dungeons I have seen have a mix of 2 and 3 with a rare 4 as a named.

Loot
- Like what I have heard from WoW players: green is what most people will have, with a smattering of blue. If you have two yellows you are doing well.

Loot distribution
- The group leader can set the distribution. Most common is cash split with rolls for greens or better.
- When someone in the group loots a corpse with a magic item, they click "start roll". Everyone in the group then gets a pop-up window.
- If the item is class-appropriate for you, then you will see a Need button. Everyone sees a Greed button and a Pass button. If you are the only one who clicks need, you win. If more than one clicks need, then there is an auto-roll (1-100). If you don't actually need it (and you are honest) then click Greed. The game then auto-rolls for everyone in the Greed pool.
- This is the best group loot mechanic yet.

[Valmorian]

Loot distribution
- The group leader can set the distribution. Most common is cash split with rolls for greens or better.
- When someone in the group loots a corpse with a magic item, they click "start roll". Everyone in the group then gets a pop-up window.
- If the item is class-appropriate for you, then you will see a Need button. Everyone sees a Greed button and a Pass button. If you are the only one who clicks need, you win. If more than one clicks need, then there is an auto-roll (1-100). If you don't actually need it (and you are honest) then click Greed. The game then auto-rolls for everyone in the Greed pool.
- This is the best group loot mechanic yet.

Looks virtually identical to what WoW does.  I agree, I like the mechanic too.

[Belce]

Actually, each death in EQ1 did cause me to lose weeks of experience. My necro was level 54, and I don't have a lot of time to play. One day I died a couple times and lost almost all of level 54 which had taken me several months to work through. Levels 1-51 took a year, levels 52-54 took another year, mostly due to the death penalty and retardedly slow advancement (which would have been more acceptable except for the aforementioned penalty). Sure, I could've had a cleric around, but there's another timesink (in finding one every night I play or at least every time I die). There's no good reason imo to base so much of the core gameplay around timesinks!

Now Planetside, with mere tactical setbacks as a death penalty? Golden. You can have medics revive you, set up mobile spawn points. It's mmo done right. And so many more memorable moments packed into the game play.

Of course, my position is that death penalties themselves are stupid? Why do you need to be punished for playing a game? No other games are set up like that. Yet for mmo, god forbid you question penalizations! Whip me, beat me, call me sally.

Here we see a bald face EQ exp loss lie.  I played this game as a warrior, only able to gain exp in groups and as a warrior did suffer death a few times, but never was the consequence as poor as you say, not once.  There was exp loss greater for solo players that could not find a rez and if this applies to you, it is due to a game play choice you made and not a valid complaint against the game itself.  You decided to play that way and had other options at hand.  Your bad experience with exp loss in EQ was due to a game choice you made and there was another choice to make it better, much better. 

[Trippy]

Huh?

[Lt.Dan]

He's new.  Or is trolling for an aneurism.

[Xerapis]

Looks like a little of both.

I say we go ahead and tag him and track him.

Maybe he's only EQ-rabid and we'll know what to avoid around him :P

[Azazel]

Here we see a bald face EQ exp loss lie.  I played this game as a warrior, only able to gain exp in groups and as a warrior did suffer death a few times, but never was the consequence as poor as you say, not once.  There was exp loss greater for solo players that could not find a rez and if this applies to you, it is due to a game play choice you made and not a valid complaint against the game itself.  You decided to play that way and had other options at hand.  Your bad experience with exp loss in EQ was due to a game choice you made and there was another choice to make it better, much better. 

Sky,

If you liked to solo. Then that's your choice, but then you deserved to die.

Ditto if you only had limited time to play and so were unable to sit on your ass looking for group (there was no /lfg flag back then). Either way, you're weak and deserved everything that EQ1's pre-clickstick and search for a cleric game threw at you.



Green Text, in case you couldn't tell.



Oh yeah, on Vanguard specifically.

I can't believe they took Fellowships out after what? Two weeks of going live? Did those morons even fucking playtest that shit in the last year? They didn't realise it was a powerleveller's dream or yet they did and let it go live or what the fuck? It might not be a big deal, but seriously, if you're going to tout your fucking game's features then try fucking playtesting them rather then stripping them out less than a month after going live. I can't believe how stupid the VG devs are sometimes.

[Strazos]

Sometimes?

[Merusk]

Either way, you're weak and deserved everything that EQ1's pre-clickstick and search for a cleric game threw at you.

So very, very few people remember this bolded timeframe, much less having to stare at a book praying you didn't get some wandering mob beating your ass for 30 levles.  Fucking a it sucked.

[shiznitz]

Oh yeah, on Vanguard specifically.

I can't believe they took Fellowships out after what? Two weeks of going live? Did those morons even fucking playtest that shit in the last year? They didn't realise it was a powerleveller's dream or yet they did and let it go live or what the fuck? It might not be a big deal, but seriously, if you're going to tout your fucking game's features then try fucking playtesting them rather then stripping them out less than a month after going live. I can't believe how stupid the VG devs are sometimes.

They were disabled before the pre-order early live period, if not before.

[Sky]

2-dot vs 3-dot vs 4-dot mobs
- The VG con system uses level and "dots." The first are soloable, the second are soloable for some classes but will gove good exp for small groups, the last if for full 6 person groups.
- 3 people fighting 3-dots get about the same exp as 6 fighting 4-dots but the 6 will get much better loot tables.
- The two dungeons I have seen have a mix of 2 and 3 with a rare 4 as a named.

Yeah. Off the fence here.

[Nebu]

I started playing again for the lack of anything else interesting to mess with.  I've now leveled 5 characters to level 10 and the difference in ability to solo is staggering.  I shouldn't be surprised that there are classes very geared to groups (the rogue for example) and some very adept at solo (psionicist, shaman, ranger).  The biggest deterrent to soloing is that many classes rely on gear to solo successfully... and the best gear drops from group encounters.  Color me shocked. 

I'll likely leave again in a couple of days.  I just wanted to give it one last shot.

[palmer_eldritch]

I've levelled up a monk and a bard in Vanguard - the bard is 18, which is obviously not high but is a lot more work than getting to 18 in, for example, WoW. I usually group with a ranger friend of mine.

I would say the game is soloable (so far) but not solo-friendly. It is group-friendly. Even quests not marked as "group quests", which you might assume means they are soloable, are often not. The individual mobs can be soloed okay, but in many places the number crowded together and the spawn rate makes it a death trap.

Incidentally, one unusual thing about the game is there is nothing in the quest text to indicate what level the quest is for. That makes it harder to look for quests that are "green" to you, ie easy because of your level. You need to go and look at the monsters and see for yourself, which is kind of cool if you want a game which doesn't hold your hand, but can obviously be frustrating. Sometimes those monsters are a long way from the NPC giving the quests.

If you prefer to solo, I wouldn't reccomend Vanguard (not sure if I would reccomend it anyway, but I'm still trying to decide). However, I don't see this as a terrible thing. One of the good things about today's MMO market is that there is at least some choice out there between solo-friendly games and group-friendly games, and you can choose which one to play. For example, as someone who played EQ I back in the days where you did stare at a book to meditate, I can't imagine anyone trying to solo up a warrior there if they had had other games to consider, unless they actually enjoyed pain. Nowadays they can play WoW or maybe LotR which is quite nice for soloing, but as someone who likes grouping - even pick up groups - I'm glad someone is making a game for me.

[shiznitz]

One problem VG has, though, is that grouping isn't really all that more exp efficient than soloing. This depends a lot on which class you play, but there are half a dozen classes that can easily solo the 3-dot (small group) mobs. The trick is finding an outdoor, reliable spawn point for them. Sigil has already started trying to make exp adjustments to this (raising the exp of 3- and 4-dot mobs a bit) but that doesn't fix anything because the soloers just get more exp. The problem is that the grouping bonus is crap right now.

I enjoy the grouping in VG and do it with my guild because it is fun AND you have no chance at yellow or better loot drops without a group since those drops seem to be restricted to dungeons, where mob density makes soloing very dangerous.

So, you can solo in VG and if you want to craft, you can also make decent money (some people have 10g+ already when most mobs drop a few copper and low teems quests pay 1s.)

Take a look at some druid spells (not all, just the solo friendly ones):

Level 4(?): Ensnare
Level 12: 40 second root, levitate
Level 14: SoW
Level 18: Taproot (roots the druid, but regens all mana in about 15 seconds even in combat)

Snare mob, unload DoTs and DDs, root, taproot, repeat until mob is dead. It really doesn't matter if the mob is 2-, 3- or 4-dot as long as it's level is low enough (+2 or lower) to avoid resists.  Before Taproot, the druid has to stick to 2-dots because mana runs out on the higher hitpoint mobs. Taproot has no purpose other than to aid soloing since if the druid is oom in a group, the other casters probably are too so everyone has to wait around anyway.

Reports are that a 20ish druid soloing 3-dot even con mobs can level in 2.5 hours. Now, this is not the most exciting thing I can think of but it is VERY hard to get that kind of exp efficiency in a group and 3-dot mobs drop reasonably good loot (green and blue).

[HaemishM]

Here we see a bald face EQ exp loss lie.  I played this game as a warrior, only able to gain exp in groups and as a warrior did suffer death a few times, but never was the consequence as poor as you say, not once.  There was exp loss greater for solo players that could not find a rez and if this applies to you, it is due to a game play choice you made and not a valid complaint against the game itself.  You decided to play that way and had other options at hand.  Your bad experience with exp loss in EQ was due to a game choice you made and there was another choice to make it better, much better. 

That's not about a gameplay choice. Even in a guild like ours, Belce, I would lose days worth of experience with a death if there was no cleric around (Sky was higher than I ever got - 54 necro). And in our guild, there often wasn't a cleric around. We had a number of problems with people in the guild getting upset because they couldn't find a group, mainly because no one wanted to exp without a group and often the one or two clerics in the guild were snapped up in groups the minute they got online and said "Hi!" So those who weren't in that one or two groups were forced to do PUG groups, alliance groups (one of the few reasons I wanted us to foster alliances back then), solo or log off. Or if they were like Sky, they tried to solo in a game that punished soloing, and if they died, they lost all they'd done that night, and for many nights previous.

It likely got better after I left, but what Sky said was most certainly not a lie, nor down to a gameplay choice. It was down to play the way McQuaid said, or get assraped if you made one little mistake.

[Sky]

I try not to address that stupid bullshit anymore, Haemmy. Besides, the grouptards won, most mmo is not worth soloing anymore. At least if you ever want decent drops, named mobs, or dungeons. I don't understand why soloers can't be happy as second-class citizens. I should break up with my girlfriend and sell my guitars so I can play more correctly.

[Azazel]

Sometimes?

Well, you know, when I read about them. Which is sometimes.

They were disabled before the pre-order early live period, if not before.

My ignorance then. Mea Culpa. Still, wasn't that only a month or so ago? My point on playtesting your shit or at least picking up on the obvious still stands though.

Take a look at some druid spells (not all, just the solo friendly ones):
Level 4(?): Ensnare
Level 14: SoW

Did they just go ahead and call the damn spell "Spirit of Wolf" again?

I try not to address that stupid bullshit anymore, Haemmy. Besides, the grouptards won, most mmo is not worth soloing anymore. At least if you ever want decent drops, named mobs, or dungeons. I don't understand why soloers can't be happy as second-class citizens. I should break up with my girlfriend and sell my guitars so I can play more correctly.

I've been quite surprised with the BC expack for WoW in this regard - you can still solo lots of stuff (there are a few group-only quests, but thats cool) and dungeons for your level are still group-only situations, but you can quest for good gear throughout your levelling span, and a lot of random-mob-greens are better than quest drops as well. It's been a strange but fun experience again, in that I can be killing a random mob for any reason and they often have a good chance to drop gear that's actually an upgrade for me. I'd say it's moreso this way than it was 1-60. Of course, at 70, I'll run out of commonly-available greens, so it will be back into groups, though at least the raids aren't the dominant animal anymore. I guess PVP is a solo option.

[Venkman]

Blizzard threw the kitchen sink at BC, trying to keep the vets and capture back folks who quit at 60. Sucks for those who quit at 30, but with 8mil+ accounts, apparently they're not a big enough audience anyway :)

Seriously, as has been noted frequently, gear upgrades on the first soloable quests in BC lands are pretty big, particularly if you quit at 60 because you could never raid. The stat boosts and money are very good.

Did they just go ahead and call the damn spell "Spirit of Wolf" again?

It's called "Speed of the Wolf". And you know, that's just tip of the iceberg. VG is so much like EQ in just about everything, except the inclusion of the proto-Asian race(s). For those who didn't play EQ1 alot or at all, the corrolations won't matter. And for those who liked EQ1, they'll be enjoyed. But from afar, it really does seem like Brad felt he owned the whole IP enough to go off and effectively make the sequel in everything but name.

[Falconeer]

But from afar, it really does seem like Brad felt he owned the whole IP enough to go off and effectively make the sequel in everything but name.

And that's funny, cause Tony "Vhalen" Garcia, the man who invented the whole EQ lore and world for its D&D PnP campaign back in the 80s, is still actively in the EQ2 team, and I dare to say the only one from the original EQ1 team still in the EQ2 boat (not counting Smedley).

[Sky]

I fully intend on checking out BC...when it's not the price of a full game for an expansion.