Vanguard: Round 1 - FIGHT!

[Belce]

I don't see why surprise encounters are a bad thing in these games, we allow it both ways in pen and paper versions of these games and we are allowed to surprise what we fight in the game otherwise as well too.   I really like the idea myself. 

The only reason they are a bad thing is because of the death penalties. If death didn't hurt, surprise me all day. If I've the potential to lose a level from some attack I never see, it's an assraping.

You can't loose a lvl in this game.  Your butt won't bleed again today.

[Falconeer]

Right. You lose XP when you die but you get it back (fully, so far) when you succesfully perform the Corpse Run.
If you lose more XP than you can afford, meaning that you woul de-level, then you get debt instead of the loss of a level.

[Belce]

Link to maps

http://vanguardvault.ign.com/View.php?view=maps.list

[Venkman]

Right. You lose XP when you die but you get it back (fully, so far) when you succesfully perform the Corpse Run.
If you lose more XP than you can afford, meaning that you woul de-level, then you get debt instead of the loss of a level.

So basically, do the CR get full XP back, including paying off debt?

As long as they stay with that system, that's cool. XP loss sucks. XP debt without a way to instantly getting it back is really just a shade of the same thing. Having a method in the game mechanic to get that XP back in full, at a much quicker pace than having to grind it back, is fine for a game billing itself as "hardcore". You still lost XP (because you spent time doing the CR), but it's nowhere near as arbitrarily sadistic is losing that XP/time forever ala pre-click-stick EQ1.

Those maps are ok, but not of a resolution to be useful beyond a broad scope. Which of course was the intention I'm sure.

[HaemishM]

With XP debt and all that, it now sounds like EQ2 at release, execpt without instancing and more money pissed away.

[Falconeer]

Well, I heard you'd get only 75% of the just lost XP, but my personal and empiric tests showed a full regain of lost XP.

It's a nice system. It actually does what Brad said he wanted. The soloer is OK as dying in the open usually results in a very easy CR, so XP is safe.
While adventuring (and dying) in Dungeons means serious stuff: if you die a cleric can res you on site and the XP is safe. But if you and your group wipe, well... better you have a full set of weapon and armour in bank or you can say goodbye to those hard earned XP.

I like the system. I know when I am in a place where I can take some risks or where I have to be careful and equip the best weapon I can. Dungeons are the best loot and stuff, but you have to go there knowing that you could have a bad night.

War story: three days ago I was in a Bugbear cave of some sort and with a full group we grinded XP and quests (we kept sharing a repeatable one that didn't even need to be turned in, so basically an exploit, whatever...) and I reached 97% of level 15. Suddenly, a bad pull aggroed 3 meanies on me and one of them critted me sending my ass to the ground. No chance to res me and I was so mas as my XP fell back to 90%....
I tried getting back to the corpse, but this group (pickup one) was deep in so they tried to drag my corpse to the entrance and wiped in the process. We were at this point full group and full naked at dungeon entrance, basically unable to do the corpse run but definitely wanting to do it. What? Losing 7% xp? no way!
We waited for another group going in to just follow them as they cleaned the way and so we did... but at a certain point one of the suckers in our group aggroed something more than the sweeping group could handle... so they wiped, and we wiped (naked) again.

Not only we get them SO mad at us, but I died two times and from 97% into level 15 I fell back to 83%. At that point I summoned my corpses, took the durability hit, cried for my lost XP and called it a night.
Was it fun? Hell no! I was so pissed and my keyboard suffered major bashing. My cat hide under the bed.
Is it fun now, remembering it? Yes.
I never enjoyed doing the Corpse Runs in EverQuest. I loved the story about it the morning after.

Anyway, I derailed. I'll edit the warstory to a smaller font, to ease the skipping of it.

[Venkman]

That account reminds me specifically of EQ1. And yea, I definitely agree Brad achieved his vision. This is one of those intangible "rewards" or "horrors" of an experience, but is cornerstone to what sets VG apart (or what justifies errors made early in development... whatever).

I'd personally hate that. I did not mind it in EQ because I was young and had lots of time, and it's really how I got to know a lot of the people I still game with. Nowadays I can't afford that level of immersion in a game, and I know these people already. I'm immersed, but come with the social ties that don't require anything deeper than "game". Sucks that life keeps me from bothering with games that require way more of me than I can afford to spare.

Don't marry a non-gamer, and adopt kids when they're already seven years old, and gamers  :-D

[Signe]

Better yet, adopt kids who have jobs.

[Strazos]

My buddy, who has been a Vanguard fanboi from the very beginning, has quit in disgust.

He may rejoin later, but for now...

VICTORY IS MINE!


Sorry, I was just happy that now he'd actually play something other than VG. Feel free to ignore me on this one.

[Trippy]

My buddy, who has been a Vanguard fanboi from the very beginning, has quit in disgust.

What were his reasons?

[Der Helm]

Not only we get them SO mad at us, but I died two times and from 97% into level 15 I fell back to 83%. At that point I summoned my corpses, took the durability hit, cried for my lost XP and called it a night.

Was it fun? Hell no! I was so pissed and my keyboard suffered major bashing. My cat hide under the bed.
Is it fun now, remembering it? Yes.

[Strazos]

My buddy, who has been a Vanguard fanboi from the very beginning, has quit in disgust.

What were his reasons?

The usual; unfinished quests, broken servers, shitty performance (once more than 50 people were logged in), sparse content, etc etc.

You know, shit I was telling him about for MONTHS. Oh well, at least he learned his lesson...kind of.


He's going to buy TBC, which is an entirely different problem. 

[Falconeer]

[silly imges]

You deluded cheaters who loved to to play R-Type ansd Xenon 2 in godmode don't impress me at all.
If you can't stand defeat, if you can't get a good chuckle over some digital hurdles, then it's time to get that Action Replay cartridge and save yourself the bad part of videogames, which is called "Game Over" in my book while "staples 'n eggs" in your.

[Der Helm]

You deluded cheaters who loved to to play R-Type ansd Xenon 2 in godmode don't impress me at all.
If you can't stand defeat, if you can't get a good chuckle over some digital hurdles, then it's time to get that Action Replay cartridge and save yourself the bad part of videogames, which is called "Game Over" in my book while "staples 'n eggs" in your.

I will remind you of this when the loss of 14% exp to the next level equals not a few lost hours of gametime, but a week or two at level 30 (40,50, whatever)

[Falconeer]

You deluded cheaters who loved to to play R-Type ansd Xenon 2 in godmode don't impress me at all.
If you can't stand defeat, if you can't get a good chuckle over some digital hurdles, then it's time to get that Action Replay cartridge and save yourself the bad part of videogames, which is called "Game Over" in my book while "staples 'n eggs" in your.

I will remind you of this when the loss of 14% exp to the next level equals not a few lost hours of gametime, but a week or two at level 30 (40,50, whatever)

Do I really have to explain to you that at level 30 (40,50, whatever) you won't lose 7% but just a scaled amount?
That said, a two week rollback of the server would piss me off a little. While losing two weeks of XP because of death would be a completely different thing (and that is NOT gonna happen anyway, as at level 40 you just lose a fraction of your XP, like 1%).
What's so hard to understand about the fact that while I won't negate that MMORPGs are about progression, get to the next level, see new places and mobs, get new gears... most can still enjoy the horizontalities provided by the social layer?

See, losing 1 full level of XP in a multiplayer game, where I group and chat with friends every night it is SO NOT like having your memory card with 30 hours of time spent in FFXII erased. You can cut my xp but you can't cut my fun because, as opposed to single player games or the FF example, I am not there JUST to progress.
It's not that I like to die, lose xp, having to procrastinate the day I will be able to tackle Dragon Momma or wear the Plated Greaves of Gameoverness. It's just that it's ok. If I was just interested in getting levels and gears I'd play Progressquest.

And we are back at the Game Over part. Maybe it's because I grew up in the coin op era, but as much as I hated to lose my coins on too hard videogames, I kept playing some of them. I wasn't expecting candies or a thai massage anyway for eventually beating the game, so losing (and having to start over, that is NOT the case here) was mostly OK.

[Venkman]

Actually, I believe the point is that he will remind you when you quit VG in {insert form of disgust here} 

What's so hard to understand about the fact that while I won't negate that MMORPGs are about progression, get to the next level, see new places and mobs, get new gears... most can still enjoy the horizontalities provided by the social layer?

Nothing's hard about understanding that because it's why we're all here. But it is hard to understand how a game with far less people because it is relatively punitive in all things can be deemed more social than games with twice to twenty times the number of players. Does the game mechanic of WoW compel socialization? Not directly, no. But you know what? There are so many freaking people there that they find ways to socialize horiztonally anyway.

You don't need downtime, public spaces and competition or spawn to compel social interaction. In fact, I'd say those being used as tools in social engineering is going to compel almost the wrong type of interaction.

Like you not minding how you pissed off that other group. That's circa-1999 stuff there, the very essence of why the genre has evolved to what it is.

None of this is surprising. We all knew VG was retro, specificially targeting folks who looked upon elements of the old days through rose-colored glasses.

[Falconeer]

Actually, I believe the point is that he will remind you when you quit VG in {insert form of disgust here} 

What's so hard to understand about the fact that while I won't negate that MMORPGs are about progression, get to the next level, see new places and mobs, get new gears... most can still enjoy the horizontalities provided by the social layer?

Nothing's hard about understanding that because it's why we're all here. But it is hard to understand how a game with far less people because it is relatively punitive in all things can be deemed more social than games with twice to twenty times the number of players. Does the game mechanic of WoW compel socialization? Not directly, no. But you know what? There are so many freaking people there that they find ways to socialize horiztonally anyway.

Hey, Darniaq.
I never said Vanguard is "more social". At all. Neither I was trying to imply that the loss of XP is a good way to foster socialization in MMORPGs. I know these are someone else's theories (Brad?) but not mine.

I just tried to explain why I am not bothered by the occasional loss of XP and why I fail to see that like a punishment.
That was all.

[Falconeer]

None of this is surprising. We all knew VG was retro, specificially targeting folks who looked upon elements of the old days through rose-colored glasses.

The more I think about it, the less I like this perspective.
You sound like some guys I knew. We were playing a PnP RPGs, actually two campaings at the same time. I was the DM in one, a friend was the DM in the other one. In mine, some PCs died along the way and while it was painful it was so part of the game. In the other campaign the guy used to save all the PCs anytime he could, so the group, after 5 years, was still the initial one. I argued that it was so obvious he was cheating to save us that it wasn't funny anymore and so him (and a few others) asked me what was supposed to be funny or in dying?
Their idea about the RPG was just the idea of progression, new gear, new levels, longest paper-peen.

It's not anymore about Vanguard. And it's not about the XP loss per se.
You should try to explain me WHY in the world losing some XP should be considered a waste of time! Especially in a social-oriented environment, unless you clearly chase just the vertical aspect of the game and consider the horizontal one like a joyful and less important decoration of the whole experience. AGAIN, I am not saying that games with loss of XP foster better socialization, I just fail to see the big deal about it. So you have to take back your corpse or accept the fact that you lost some XP (but not the money, the loot and especially NOT the fun you got while doing that). So?

This is NOT a confrontation between Vanguard and different approaches to death, like recent EQ2 for example. It's just that I don't get you all guys who just want to play with auto-save permanently enabled. This games aren't story driven to the point that you have to repeat the same identical steps of the plot every time you die. On the contrary, the only plots and stories you will ever have will come from your human friends and human enemies. So what's so bad in losing some XP? What's so bad in having to wait a little longer to hear the ding? The game won't change. You aren't longing for the next cutscene, for the big fight with Jecht, for the return of of the Jedi or for good ole Godot. You are just whacking and whacking and whacking and whacking just to hear fucking DING and some different textured colours on your avatar. This is why MMORPG are shitty games. Cause they don't provide the meat single player RPGs can offer, they are basically just watered down RPGs.
What's the trade in? The people. And the stories people can tell, of course in the successful raid against Onyxia, Daratathar or Lady Vox AND in the big and dramatic wipes.
I don't wear ANY kind of rose colored glasses, and once again I am not talking about Vanguard. I just can't see what it's so compelling about just getting to the next level, what's with all the hurry. What's so bad in losing a life sometimes and having to get back at the last checkpoint?

So here's the line on the ground. That side of the line I put you (not just you Darniaq), bored enough with MMORPGs that you just want to mow through them chasing the ghost of the fun that will, eventually, come at level 60 (or whatever it's the top).
This side of the line I put a different kind of bored gamer, me, who played single players since their invention until the advent of Ultima Online. At that point I realized that, save for sport games (they are always fun played shoulder by shoulder with friends), there was only two kind of games I could be still interested in:

- The ones with compelling and extraordinary storylines. Most of my favourite console games satisfy that requisite, and I still play lots of them.

- The ones with lots of people in it, where most of the content was created by players by just existing there with their different behaviours. Pre Trammel Ultima Online, where you could lose much more than a few XP with just one death, is still one of my best videogame experience ever, the best online one for sure. But yes I love PvP everytime and everywhere, and I loved EQ, and I loved Trains and I still love love Corpse Runs.

They are good examples, for me, of unscripted horizontal content in games that usualy lack it or any kind of comeplling storyline. And it's content of the kind that I can share with friends and that I can talk about later.

[Arthur_Parker]

It's not anymore about Vanguard. And it's not about the XP loss per se.
You should try to explain me WHY in the world losing some XP should be considered a waste of time! Especially in a social-oriented environment, unless you clearly chase just the vertical aspect of the game and consider the horizontal one like a joyful and less important decoration of the whole experience. AGAIN, I am not saying that games with loss of XP foster better socialization, I just fail to see the big deal about it. So you have to take back your corpse or accept the fact that you lost some XP (but not the money, the loot and especially NOT the fun you got while doing that). So?

This is NOT a confrontation between Vanguard and different approaches to death, like recent EQ2 for example. It's just that I don't get you all guys who just want to play with auto-save permanently enabled. This games aren't story driven to the point that you have to repeat the same identical steps of the plot every time you die. On the contrary, the only plots and stories you will ever have will come from your human friends and human enemies. So what's so bad in losing some XP? What's so bad in having to wait a little longer to hear the ding? The game won't change. You aren't longing for the next cutscene, for the big fight with Jecht, for the return of of the Jedi or for good ole Godot. You are just whacking and whacking and whacking and whacking just to hear fucking DING and some different textured colours on your avatar. This is why MMORPG are shitty games. Cause they don't provide the meat single player RPGs can offer, they are basically just watered down RPGs.
What's the trade in? The people. And the stories people can tell, of course in the successful raid against Onyxia, Daratathar or Lady Vox AND in the big and dramatic wipes.
I don't wear ANY kind of rose colored glasses, and once again I am not talking about Vanguard. I just can't see what it's so compelling about just getting to the next level, what's with all the hurry. What's so bad in losing a life sometimes and having to get back at the last checkpoint?

I was in a Bugbear cave of some sort and with a full group we grinded XP and quests (we kept sharing a repeatable one that didn't even need to be turned in, so basically an exploit, whatever...) and I reached 97% of level 15.

The reasons you use to justify playing Vanguard to yourself, appear to be different from what you do when you actually play.  Nothing wrong with that in itself.  I just think it's interesting that you don't see exp loss as time wasted in theory, yet you use quest reward exploits in game to gain exp which I can only assume, saves you time.

[Falconeer]

Arthur, you can do better than that.

I look for many different things in a MMO. The time you have to commit on them is long enough that the more things you can do the better. I never said I despise progressing. I just said I like some variations and accidents while doing it.
I liked the XP I was getting in that dungeon and I like the way we wiped and lost part of what we gained. For different reasons, I enjoyed both the events.
Having only the first part, or too much of the latter, would suck in full.

[Arthur_Parker]

I'm not bashing the game or you, I said my piece on Vanguard already, I just found two of your posts on this page interesting.  Personally I would rather read about your experiences playing Vanguard, rather than your responses to the limitless "Vangrind lol" posts.

[Falconeer]

I wrote some stuff about Vanguard, supposedly for f13, and I submitted it. Apparently it has been stuck in the editing cog of the mechanism for the last 7 days.

[Valmorian]

AGAIN, I am not saying that games with loss of XP foster better socialization, I just fail to see the big deal about it.

It's not a "big deal", it's just that we'd rather not put up with the hassle of XP loss, corpse retrieval, etc.. of old style MMO's. 

I'd suggest it's something like the progression of RTS games to the point where you have waypoint control, right click context, auto-producing of units, and so on.  These are all ways of minimizing those factors that many people don't find "fun".  XP loss and corpse retrieval were things that many people didn't find "fun" about EQ.  Likewise with forced grouping and having to wait in line to defeat the grand foozle at the end of dungeon X.

There are always going to be people who miss older games and their experiences, and if you like the idea of corpse runs and XP loss, more power to you.  Trying to convince people who have left those behind because they found them un-fun that "No, they really ARE Fun!!" isn't going to work (not that I am suggesting that this is exactly what you are doing).

[Sky]

This breakdown is occurring sooner than I expected.

[Nebu]

I'm guessing that I'm in the vast minority here.  I'm a huge proponent of calculated risk/reward in games.  I'm a fan of putting the best items in an area that contains the greatest risk/reward for obtaining them.  If people feel that the risk isn't worth it to them, then they may feel free to avoid adventuring in those areas. 

This is one of the few skill barriers left in MMOG's that separates the better players from those that have the most time.  While I'm against xp debt and corpse retrieval in all areas, I think that they serve as risk/reward tools in a very small subset of others.  I like the concept of a dungeon that contains great risks (loss of my corpse and items) with the benefit of a very rare/nice reward.  The fact that these areas are optional should allow players to encounter risk at their own choosing. 

More niche mmog's please!

[Engels]

See, that's the issue. If Vanguard's rewards were commesurate with the pain in the ass 'risk' involved in some of their quests, then I'd be all for it. Last night, we picked up a couple of quests to go into a troll dungeon near Vault of Heroes, at Sir. Somebody's camp.

This troll dungeon was repleat with 3 dot trolls, with wanderers and the occasional inevitable multiple pulls. Completeing the above quest required killing approximately 30 or so trolls. With a team of 4 players, due to a server crash and the mobs dropping below the world and then repoping at their original spawn points only to bring in other mobs to the fight, my team wiped twice. Completing the quest took approximately 3 hours, between corpse runs, etc.

The rewards amounted to a grand total of 60 copper for each quest. One crafting work order of equivalent level rewards you with more than that for approximately 4 minutes work.

[Sky]

I don't mind risk/reward schemes, for the most part. I'd rather not have some of the more punitive systems, but I've played enough games with them that it's not really the breaking point.

But I disagree with what you said about skill vs time invested. EQ was one of the more punitive games, but a skilled player could pull off a lot more than they could in more modern games, because of the hard-coded group bias so popular these days. The days of soloing in Guk when you could still get experience and decent items for your level are long gone. It took a lot of player skill even with a powerful soloing class like a necromancer. Now it's complete cockblock.

But if I had more time to play, so I could build social networks and be available to group regularly, that stuff would be available.

And that's not even getting into the direct timesinks of raid-style gameplay, where he who can play in the most unfun way possible reaps the highest rewards the game has to offer.

[Belce]

I don't understand, raids are usually alot of fun, solo play is the suck.

[HaemishM]

Raids are fun the first time. After that, doing the same raid more than once sucks it, especially when the loot-whoring arguments begin.

I'm all for risk/reward formulas, but MMOG's are fucked in this regard. Losing an encounter you've tried to win and getting sent back to a bind spot or graveyard is more than enough of a loss for me. Maybe add some item damage. I don't need the threat of XP loss, because in MMOG's, what that really means is TIME lost. And time is more valuable than any shiney in an MMOG.

It might be different if MMOG encounters were in anyway sophisticated, but they aren't. They are mostly just "hammer on it til it's dead" encounters, or "beat the gimmick" encounters like EQ's old Venril Sathir raid.

[Nebu]

Sky,

I wasn't suggesting that skill ever wins out over time.  The way MMOG's are designed, time will always be the dominant factor.  I was more trying to say that I appreciate games where a skilled player can accomplish what they wish to more efficiently.  Efficiency is all I have going for me in games since I have other hobbies and a job.  When that gets roadblocked (as it appears to be with each new iteration of mmogs), then my time in mmogs will either be extremely casual or over.

[Venkman]

This is why I hope MMOFPS games can take off. If player skill determines the outcome by itself, players can be motivated by goals different from the usual grind.

I never said Vanguard is "more social"...

I just tried to explain why I am not bothered by the occasional loss of XP and why I fail to see that like a punishment.

Yea, I really didn't mean to focus that on you. It was more in response to prior arguments about why downtime is needed to foster socialization, through the years. VG leans that way. WoW and GW lean the other. To me, any popular game can be social through collective emergent behavior. If players want it, they'll do it. But the game play comes first. Without that you can't attract people in the first place (not an epiphany there ;) ).

You should try to explain me WHY in the world losing some XP should be considered a waste of time!

XP loss is time loss is advancement loss. You don't worry as much about advancement in Oblivion or NWN2 because the periodic rewards you receive punctuate an evolving experience. But MMOs are persistent, time-static games, and get repetitive real quick. Quests can't be world-changing by nature. Abilities can't be too broad and varied to be balanced effectively. MMOs emphasize different experiences to offset the diluted RPGs they are by necessity. So the biggest types of "new" players get in these games is through the abilities they unlock either by level or by gear.

Everyone grinds eventually. Would you bring in KOTOR2? No. Why bother? You KNOW the game is designed to give you max enjoyment at YOUR pace throughout. MMOs don't have that luxury. So we're motivated by mastering what we know until we unlock ways to further customize our experience.

When something that's easily fixed gets in the way of that, we want it fixed.

There's also the very big difference between soloing, grouping with a dedicated group of friends on a calendar (DnD style), and jumping into a game whenever and however you can to temporarily hang out with friends who may or not be around.

[Margalis]

A lot of this seems to me to be:

"I enjoy hanging out with my friends, so what is happening in-game doesn't matter all that much."

In that case, I would suggest your friends are the fun part, not the game.

I had a ton of fun playing Command and Conquer in college, even though it wasn't a great game. Because my friends were fun. Nothing wrong with that but that isn't a convincing reason for someone else to play C&C unless my friends come in the box.

I was just reading some vault vanguard forums for fun. A lot of people are complaining about the XP being slow, and others are saying "hey, slow down - enjoy the world, travel, try diplomacy!" The problem is, these games are all about XPing. Gaining XP is really the point. That's why losing XP sucks, and why losing time (and therefore time you could spend gaining XP) sucks.

I'm a big proponent of taking your time and enjoying the journey - as long as the journey is interesting. It sounds like your group of buddies makes the journey interesting, cool. But people asking for something *in-game* to be interesting is quite reasonable.

It is hard to take your time and smell the roses in a MMORPG when the core gameplay sucks.

[Rithrin]

I'm not going to comment on some key things here, but what I really wanted to point out is... People always complain about XP loss. They absolutely love being sent back to a bindstone to run back, though, and they even love having to spend money to repair their gear. But still they decry XP loss as being some unholy plague because it "wastes time". So does running back to your instance, so does repairing your gear (You have to grind the money back anyways). How does any of this differ to losing experience? "I might never get it back!" You might never get that money back that you repaired your gear with... and you're certainly never going to get the time back you spent running after you died, so what's the difference? I don't understand how a developer choosing to have XP loss as their death penalty is any different than just making you run really really far to the dungeon you just died in. Its ALL time anyways, what does it matter in which form you lose it so long as you're losing the same amount?

[Margalis]

The time you lose doing a CR (which I would point out, many people don't like either) does translate into XP indirectly, and money for repairs might translate into time which translates into XP, but XP *is* XP.

Losing XP hits people hard because the point of the game is to accrue XP. Money can be gained while earning XP, and you can often do without top-notch gear. Taking away XP is directly taking away what people have working towards and is negative progress. Wasting time is a lack of positive progress, which is similar but psychologically not the same. I would also point out that if you have the money repair costs are meaningless.

My guess is if you asked people to rank those, they would almost always come out like this:

Repair costs. (Best)
CR
XP Loss. (Worst)

[Rithrin]

I suppose you may be right. For whatever reason, though, I've always viewed it as "Meh, I'll just whack a few more foozles and be done with it". Its money loss that kills me, probably because its where I struggle the most in MMOs. Just seems like XP is everywhere (Wherever there's a mob... everywhere) and money is in select places like high level raids and non soloable stuff. The XP is easily returned, the money is not.