Battlestar Galactica (spoilers/speculation)

[Velorath]

Then why would the raiders turn back and refuse to engage the fleet (on the grounds they knew the final five were there)?

It was said that they felt/thought it, they didn't know it. It's a very Battlestar Galactica coincidence that it led to refusal to engage the fleet at that particular moment. But it's a pretty likely worry for a cylon to have when it's central to your religious faith that there are five unknown human-looking cylons somewhere, and you're engaged in trying to wipe out humans.

the raiders recognising them as Cylons and Tori's super-human punch all seem to make it very unlikely that they aren't most of the final five.

How the hell they explain them being Cylons the whole time should be interesting/disappointing.

I can't see that Saul Tigh is a cylon. Adama has known him since they were young men, just after the first cylon war. Is skin job technology really that old and reliable? Nah, he's deluded, it's an implanted conviction that he must be a cylon. They're all deluded. I can't explain Tori's punch, but it did occur in an airlock right next to space - maybe gravity is slightly lower in the airlock?

None of that would work at all from the perspective of trying to get all the storylines tied up.  Where's the dramatic payoff to spending this much time in the final season developing the storyline of these characters being Cylons, only time have it revealed as misdirection?  It would be one of those plot twists that just makes the story more complicated rather than complex and would mainly only appeal to viewers who think the characters have been damaged by being revealed as Cylons.

[Tale]

None of that would work at all from the perspective of trying to get all the storylines tied up.  Where's the dramatic payoff to spending this much time in the final season developing the storyline of these characters being Cylons, only time have it revealed as misdirection?  It would be one of those plot twists that just makes the story more complicated rather than complex and would mainly only appeal to viewers who think the characters have been damaged by being revealed as Cylons.

Sure it would work.

The dramatic payoff is when they are convinced they are cylons, they have revealed to everyone else they are cylons, they are doomed ... and then find out who the actual cylons are and there's only a slim chance to save themselves and therefore humanity.

[Tebonas]

Thats the worst possible plot twist at this point in the series (=the last few episodes). Nothing against you, but stay away from writing TV series plots.

[Tale]

You have your wires crossed. I'm not describing what I want to see or how I would write it, I'm saying what I think we'll see.

[Tebonas]

Ah well, then let me correct that.

If that is what we will see they should stay away from writing TV series in the future.

[Stewie]

The final cylon will be one of the crossbreed kids. (either Callie and Tyrol's or Boomer and Helio's, maybe even both al la romulus and remus)
they will be the final realization of the cylon "gods" plans. 

In the end the 6's and (2's?) will look to one of the kids as their messianic leader and bring all the rest of the cylons back into the fold and then merge with humans as one big happy family. Although I'm sure it will be all dramatic and shit.

Oh and you can insert earth in there somewhere.

[sidereal]

I figured Tory was more trying to survive then out to murder Cally, if she was truly evil she would of just killed their kid along with Cally to truly make it look like a murder suicide.

Since [she thinks] the Chief is a cylon, [she thinks] the kid is a hybrid.  Based on all the fooferaw around the other one, that's evidently a big deal. 

I agree that the hit that knocked Cally back (and would have snapped her spine.  thanks realistic physics) was the first real evidence I've seen that at least one of the suspected skin jobs really is.  And it'll be a troubling moment if it turns out they aren't.  Maybe just she is and the others are taken along for a ride.  She certainly seems to be warming to it more than the others.

And I agree with Darniaq that the 'carrying my kid out the airlock' scene was unfortunate and unwelcome.  I have kids, and I suspect something chemical goes on when you do that makes stuff like that no longer an acceptable part of fiction.  And yes, I'm aware shit like that goes on all the time in reality, but there's a lot of shit that goes on in reality that I'm not interested in consuming for entertainment.

Also, Starbuck's whiny "I'm erratic and crazy and maybe a prophet!" hissy is poorly implemented.

Otherwise, good ep.  Internecine cylon warfare is always awesome.

[sidereal]

Oh, anyone else notice the Caprica prequel pilot getting picked up?

I was sad to learn that the new series would be a prequel to the time before the Cylon invasion.  That's when all the good stuff happened.  I thought it was going to be Caprica after the Cylons nuked it.  Ragged bands of resistance surviving out in the jungle against an unstoppable Cylon occupation?  Come on!  That would have been awesome!

Caprica shows the Twelve Colonies at peace and living in a society not unlike our own when a startling breakthrough in robotics brings to life the age-old dream of marrying artificial intelligence with mechanical bodies. Joseph Adama - father of future Battlestar commander William Adama - a renowned civil liberties lawyer, becomes an opponent of the experiments undertaken by the Graystones, owners of the computer giant spearheading the development of these living robots: the Cylons.

WTF? 

[Yegolev]

I have known there would be a show after this for a long time.

[NowhereMan]

If it leads into the first Cylon war that could be epic, I'm not sure how much politics and relations stuff could be added into a series based on a war but I'd love to see me some old school Cylon on Battlestar action.

[palmer_eldritch]

When Anders got the red-eye in the first episode of this season, I took that as a sort of message to the viewer that yes, they really are cylons, we're not going to duck out of the big reveal at the end of season three.

My prediction on a different topic - Laura Roslin is not the prophet who leads her people to earth but dies before they get there. The prophet is either Starbuck, Baltar or Adama.

[Bunk]

When Anders got the red-eye in the first episode of this season, I took that as a sort of message to the viewer that yes, they really are cylons, we're not going to duck out of the big reveal at the end of season three.

My prediction on a different topic - Laura Roslin is not the prophet who leads her people to earth but dies before they get there. The prophet is either Starbuck, Baltar or Adama.

It fits, Starbuck already died.

[Merusk]

Does that make Sam her Mary Magdalene?

[Margalis]

And I agree with Darniaq that the 'carrying my kid out the airlock' scene was unfortunate and unwelcome.  I have kids, and I suspect something chemical goes on when you do that makes stuff like that no longer an acceptable part of fiction.  And yes, I'm aware shit like that goes on all the time in reality, but there's a lot of shit that goes on in reality that I'm not interested in consuming for entertainment.

I understand what you are saying, but it's still totally foreign to me. Fiction is not merely entertainment. This seems to be a less-severe version of the attitude that movies have to have happy endings because otherwise they aren't fun and entertaining.

To me what makes the differences is how the author/director treats the characters. I can stand any amount of cruelty onscreen as long as I don't get the feeling that the producer buys into it, but conversely I'm really put off by even small amounts of cruelty if the producer seems to take pleasure in it.

For example I hate "torture porn" movies and movies with strong sexualized violence, not because of the torture and violence per se but because the directors of such things seem to enjoy them, not on a storytelling level but on a "torturing people is kewl" level. In this particular case I didn't get any sense of malice from the writer/director, it was just a logical part of the plot.

[Lantyssa]

Then why would the raiders turn back and refuse to engage the fleet (on the grounds they knew the final five were there)? Also why would the other Cylons have made no mention/seem to have no idea that these guys are on the fleet with faked memories? The fact that noone else seems to know about them, the raiders recognising them as Cylons and Tori's super-human punch all seem to make it very unlikely that they aren't most of the final five.

The Raiders and Cenurions are programmed to not harm any Cylon.  The skinjobs cannot recognize each other in such a fashion, however it's built into the "lower" models.

[Velorath]

And I agree with Darniaq that the 'carrying my kid out the airlock' scene was unfortunate and unwelcome.  I have kids, and I suspect something chemical goes on when you do that makes stuff like that no longer an acceptable part of fiction.  And yes, I'm aware shit like that goes on all the time in reality, but there's a lot of shit that goes on in reality that I'm not interested in consuming for entertainment.

I don't have kids, but I'm with you guys on feeling very uncomfortable about that sequence (due largely to something that happened when I was a kid to a family that my family was friends with).

[Tebonas]

We were supposed to feel uncomfortable!

And it made sense for her to do it at this point after the history she had.

I hate it when TV pulls their punches and doesn't go where it is supposed to go because of fear to alienate some people. So Kudos to them!

[NowhereMan]

The Raiders and Cenurions are programmed to not harm any Cylon.  The skinjobs cannot recognize each other in such a fashion, however it's built into the "lower" models.

I was more trying to see how Tale could explain this since he doesn't believe that they're Cylons. The question about the higher models was regarding how he could claim they've been brainwashed by the Cylons on New Caprica.

[Lantyssa]

Yeah.  I don't think it's brainwashing and your quote flowed into mine more easily.  Think of it as reinforcement. 

[Velorath]

We were supposed to feel uncomfortable!

Obviously, but at that point it caused me to extremely dislike the character in an irredeemable way.

[Lantyssa]

It was a bad episode for Cally.  It starts with her being paranoid and ends with her being suicidal while using the kid to heighten the horror.  On top of that, we hadn't seen her since the previous season.

I did find it incredibly disturbing, for several reasons, but it was made worse because I couldn't empathize with her at all through the entire episode.  And to take her out that way... it was just an ignoble ending all around.

[rattran]

She just seemed to be there to make Torry's evil more apparent.

Reminded me of the scene from the old flick 'The Brain that Wouldn't Die' where the Doctor convinces the girl that not everyone is bad, to trust again. All the while planning on cutting off her head and using her body to keep his girlfriend alive.

[Venkman]

On the discomfort: it's as sidereal said, at least for me. It's sort of primal. My kids are young enough I remember them being that age. I remember the sort of mind triggers that flip when they're hurt/crying/hungry and how I felt when that all came on at 3am.

It could be the mind (shit, what's going on with my kid atm?), typical male ego (what would I do if I saw that?), not being arthouse enough (lemme wax poetic on the state of my emotion), or being too basic a person in general (ugh urgh, me kids, me club, yer head). This show used to be good at shock value. It's like they pulled in the b-team, or had run out of site gags or something.

Oddly, it's also the same reason I can't play Horde in WoW, no matter what they do with the classes. It took one time running into Undercity in early beta hearing a little girl trapped in a cage in the alchemists lab to quit that noise straight away.

It may make me a simpleton, but there's just some shit in this world you don't fuck with.

[Margalis]

Again, what matters to me is the perceived authorial intent. The WOW thing just sounds cruel. What turns me off is the notion that the author is really enjoying it and expecting me to enjoy it as well.

I have the same problem with rape scenes in movies that are filmed to be sexy. Rape scenes don't bother me but the idea that the director was getting off on it is disturbing. That's one thing I liked about American Psycho, the sex scenes and women's bodies were filmed in a very clinical, passionless manner. (Woman was a director)

[eldaec]

She just seemed to be there to make Torry's evil more apparent.

I didn't see Torry as evil - she just accepts that she is a Cylon. Though I agree her role may have been an attempt to make us think of Torry (and possibly the others) as evil.

The sequence reminds us that the Cylons can be vicious and effective, and will harm humans if they have to (since they've been a mess in the episodes so far, and the 4 of 5 have been nothing but wussy bitches), while at the same time acting rationally and within a reasonable moral code.

The Cylons stated overarching goal is to ensure the survival of their species.

They see the cylon babies as the only way to save their race permanently, and the humans as the greatest threat to the Cylon race.


Torry was put in a position where she can only save the cylon baby from human harm by intervening, and if she doesn't kill Cally then Cally remains a threat to the baby and to her.

In the opposite situation....

Starbuck sees a human baby in the arms of a cylon, and if she doesn't kill the cylon then the cylon would report back locations and put the baby and Starbuck at risk.

....there would be pew pew then tea and medals all around.



This whole scene was designed to realign the viewer with the humans and remind us that the cylon threat is real, all without breaking the rule the writers seem to have set that humans and cylons are morally equal in the round.



As for the comments about Cally suiciding with the kid, it was awkward, but I felt they used it well enough to justify the choice they made. Being trapped on a ship in that situation and on drugs at Cally's rank made the drive to suicide believable - if it had been one of the officer class, who seem to get more "life options", then it would harder to buy into imo.

[eldaec]

Oh, anyone else notice the Caprica prequel pilot getting picked up?

I was sad to learn that the new series would be a prequel to the time before the Cylon invasion.  That's when all the good stuff happened.  I thought it was going to be Caprica after the Cylons nuked it.  Ragged bands of resistance surviving out in the jungle against an unstoppable Cylon occupation?  Come on!  That would have been awesome!

Caprica shows the Twelve Colonies at peace and living in a society not unlike our own when a startling breakthrough in robotics brings to life the age-old dream of marrying artificial intelligence with mechanical bodies. Joseph Adama - father of future Battlestar commander William Adama - a renowned civil liberties lawyer, becomes an opponent of the experiments undertaken by the Graystones, owners of the computer giant spearheading the development of these living robots: the Cylons.

WTF? 

BSG: Enterprise

Space Nazi Vampires Ho!

[tazelbain]

My prediction for this upcoming show is that 2,6,8s were actually expecting the betrayal by the 1,4,5s and have something even worse planned.

[Lantyssa]

Cylon civil war.  What's the human fleet going to do when they end up with a few basestar defectors?

[NowhereMan]

Invite them on board, stick them in an airlock and then nuke their resurrection ship. 

[sidereal]

"We're going to need a bigger airlock"

[Tebonas]

They just have to improve the current airlocks to satisfy their needs...

[HaemishM]

I did find it incredibly disturbing, for several reasons, but it was made worse because I couldn't empathize with her at all through the entire episode.  And to take her out that way... it was just an ignoble ending all around.

Yes, that was exactly my problem with it. Cally has been a good character, a loyal one, and a tough one. She's never backed down, even when everything has been against her. She started out as the little mousy chick that no one noticed and she developed a real strong character through all that.

And then suddenly, she's a drug-addled milquetoast who wants to space herself and her kid. She went from Mouse Crusader to the Wayans Brother in Requiem for a Dream in one episode. She went out all Mace Windu, like a punk bitch. It felt like the writers realized: 1) we need to put Cally back on because we've got a contract but we really don't know where to take her character so let's kill her, and 2) we need to put some tension into this final 5 thing because it's sinking like a stone, so let's have someone find out about them then get kacked. She was treated like a redshirt, and her character had earned more than redshirt status, IMO.

[Margalis]

It was a plot device to advance Torie's craziness. No more no less.

[Abagadro]

Cally has always been a shitty character. I'm glad she got spaced.

[HaemishM]

Cally has always been a shitty character. I'm glad she got spaced.

I liked her.

After tonight's episode, I finally get what's bugging me. It feels like the writers just fucking hate the living piss out of every character on the show. They are just abusing every single character in the worst ways possible. Either they've run out of ideas and are making shit up as they go along, or they just want to torture these characters because they can.

And I can't stop watching, because I just keep hoping somewhere deep in that shriveled up part of me that still has hope, that the story will start to make sense again and I won't feel like cockstabbing the writers after every episode.