eBay bans virtual "artifact" sales

[Venkman]

Got from here. QJ.net references this Slashdot article. Zonk scored an interview with a rep from eBay, following  up on rumours such as the one at Lum's place:

Mr. Hani Durzy, speaking for eBay, explained that the decision to pull these items was due to the 'legal complexities' surrounding virtual property. "For the overall health of the marketplace" the company felt that the proper course of action, after considerable contemplation, was to ban the sale of these items outright. While he couldn't give me a specific date when the delistings began, he estimated that they've been coming down for about a month or so. Mr. Durzy pointed out that in reality, the company is just now following through with a pre-existing policy, as opposed to creating a new one. The policy on digitally delivered goods states: "The seller must be the owner of the underlying intellectual property, or authorized to distribute it by the intellectual property owner." Given the nebulous nature of ownership in online games, eBay has decided the prudent decision is to remove the possibility for players to sell what might be the IP of other parties via their service. Mr. Durzy made it a point to say that initial listings of virtual property would not have punitive actions. Their assumption, he said, is that most users break with policies because they're unaware of them, rather than maliciously. Initial infractions will result in a delisting of items, and an attempt to educate the user on the policy. Persistent disregard for the policies, of course, will result in a removal of the seller's account.

Basically, huge. Does this gut the RMT business in the U.S. and maybe the West altogether? I doubt it. But I do imagine eBay accounted for at least some good chunk of RMT transactions.

And keep in mind, RMTing is not microtransactions offered by online game providers. Games like Maplestory or the upcoming MTV/Viacom stuff like Audition and Krazykart wouldn't be affected by this.

So we have the banning of RMTing on one side with the rise of microtransactions on the other. Funny how that works. I wonder if they're connected. There's no doubt at all that people want to buy this stuff for real cash, given the size the RMT industry was estimated to be before Blizzard started banning accounts by the train-full. With so many trying to bring microtrans games to our shores, either they're all way wrong, or eventually something will stick. Nuking black market RMTing now paves the way for uncontested marketspace when that something does stick.

It's not like eBay is wrong of course. It just seems odd they decide NOW, instead of, say, five years ago when SOE was trying to cap the activity (before they realized the bling potential themselves).

[Merusk]

It only screws the 'little guys'.  People who wants to dump all his extra in-game cash or items or their account after they're done with it won't be able to e-bay it now.   

IGE, WoWMine, <x-hundred other places> who run their own sites saw this coming a LONG time ago. (Along with not wanting to pay e-bay's listing fee.)   Putting your grey-area business at someone else's whimsy of 'legal' or 'over the line' never makes sense.

Genie's been out of the bottle for 10 years, this does nothing.

[Sparky]

Great news for IGE and the like, they've just had their amateur competition all but strangled at source.

[Venkman]

Yea, but how well is IGE and the other companies really doing? Some of the more established places have had to close as a result of WoW's bannings. It's not that it's hard to recreate accounts and earnings. It's that Blizzard seems to have ways to track this stuff, sorta like those folks who are trying to figure out how to nuke spam but not reading the contents of email but looking for patterns in the signal.

If you can't be successful in WoW, you're forced into a more small-time role, because the other big ass games all have or want microtrans built right into them. Now, microtrans in the U.S. is harder because unlike Korea, we don't have as well integrated money collecting, money transferring, and games industries. But it's coming, and coming from companies. Why should they let someone else take the profit?

I don't see it as just a question of transactions. It's also one of eyeballs and awareness. With WoW banning and eBay stopping, who is going to be able to ignore this? It drives it more underground sure, but that also drives up prices, drives down number of buyers, and ultimately has the impact of shrinking the industry anyway.

It was niche 10 years ago. It grew to a peak, at least in terms of people knowing it was there to be exploited, probably 3 years ago maybe? But since it's been driven more down slowly because the huge amount of newbies coming don't immediately jump to RMTing. And they're only now learning about it at the same time the heavies are pushing it down.

Maybe.

[Trippy]

I haven't been paying attention to virtual item sales on eBay for a long time now but back when I was paying attention and they "banned" EQ-related selling everybody just moved on over to Playerauctions and kept doing business as usual.

[CmdrSlack]

I'm sure I'll have something productive to say about this in the morning when I've not been drinking ye olde Beam, but it seems like eBay is rather passe for item and account sales.  Maybe that's just me, but I don't see this killing RMT.  I also don't see WoW truly killing RMT, just making a sizeable dent in the overall industry.  I suspect it will bounce back, just like intarweb businesses have since the dot com bubble burst.

[damijin]

You're far too optimistic Darniaq.

The only thing that took a hit here is the legitimacy of the RMT industry. When the biggest auction site in the world, which frequently sells shit like "Mystery Box With Possible Cure for Cancer!" and "Worn Womens Panties", tells you that your business is too gray-area, it might cause some money holders to think twice.

But it's not going anywhere for now.

[CmdrSlack]

The only thing that took a hit here is the legitimacy of the RMT industry.

Not really.  Those other auctions you mention are not really allowed either.  Do they do a perfect job of policing?  No.  But they do try.  When you try to shoehorn "legitimacy" and "RMT industry" into the same sentence, you're just going to start some lameass flamefest aobut whether RMT breaks the bullshit magic circle or not.




ETA -- verbs are good

[Mandrel]

I haven't been paying attention to virtual item sales on eBay for a long time now but back when I was paying attention and they "banned" EQ-related selling everybody just moved on over to Playerauctions and kept doing business as usual.

And Playerauctions is is owned by... IGE!

[geldonyetich]

I suspect eBay doesn't have sufficient manpower to enforce this decision.

Aside from that, I'm partly rejoycing.  I always felt RMT was immortal from a "preserve the integrity of the game world" perspective.  Not that anybody cares.

[Venkman]

I actually care, but only insofar as penalizing the black market paves the way for legit-microtrans. Us old foggies will be looking upon that stuff from afar, but I give it another four years before most of the MMOs in the U.S. are given away for free, have no subscriptions, and exist entirely on microtransactions. And I think it'll take that long not because of acceptance (there's already plenty who do this in games). It's the need for the growth and integration of the banking and credit card industries. CC companies simply collect too high a per-transaction fee for companies to be able to sell $0.25 swords :)

[Trippy]

I actually care, but only insofar as penalizing the black market paves the way for legit-microtrans. Us old foggies will be looking upon that stuff from afar, but I give it another four years before most of the MMOs in the U.S. are given away for free, have no subscriptions, and exist entirely on microtransactions. And I think it'll take that long not because of acceptance (there's already plenty who do this in games). It's the need for the growth and integration of the banking and credit card industries. CC companies simply collect too high a per-transaction fee for companies to be able to sell $0.25 swords :)

This has nothing to do with the banking or credit card industries unless you somehow think that banks and credit card companies operate differently in Asia with regards to small purchases, which they don't, not to mention that CC ownership in places like China is very low. The way you solve it in places that do have high CC ownership is you make people buy large enough bundles of in-game currency to minimize the transactions fees as a percentage of the amount spent and players use that to buy things in the game. This is how games like MapleStory, Habbo Hotel, Second Life, and Entropia work, for example. In places that don't have a lot of CCs you do it the same way everybody else does this sort of thing in those countries which is you make them buy prepaid cards. E.g. people in China don't have monthly cell phone subscriptions, they just buy time recharge cards as needed. Same with WoW and other "for pay" MMORPGs over there. For RMT games you just buy a card with a bundle of in-game currency, scratch off the secret key and enter that into your account information.

[Venkman]

That was my point though: the various forms of transactions. There are games (not MMO afaik) in France which accept personal checks for chrissakes, plus everything else.

How many U.S.-based games have nearly as many payment options as you mentioned?

It's not just the cost per transaction. It's having the ability to process it at all.

[Trippy]

That was my point though: the various forms of transactions. There are games (not MMO afaik) in France which accept personal checks for chrissakes, plus everything else.

How many U.S.-based games have nearly as many payment options as you mentioned?

It's not just the cost per transaction. It's having the ability to process it at all.

The prepaid card is an Asian-thing or maybe a non-US thing, I don't know how popular they are in Europe and other countries. Here everybody has multiple credit cards so that's the easiest way. However the technology is certainly available to accept all sorts of different forms of payment. Just go look at a pay porn site (or not) and you can see how many choices there are these days. Or check out the US Habbo Hotel credit purchase page here.

The thing is is that the major US-based MMOGs are predominately subscription-based (Guild Wars being one exception) and for reoccurring payments credit cards are the easiest thing. In other words you are saying that there are no US-developed RMT games because of the payment issues when in fact it's the other way around. US-developed MMOGs are predominately subscription-based so they don't bother to offer a bazillion payment types, not because there's some sort of payment technology gap between the US and the rest of the world.

Edit: left off an RMT

[Venkman]

Err, I wasn't saying that at all. There are a number of microtrans-based games operating in the U.S. and more coming. We all know this.

Short form: tech there, desire not, and in five years (or so) I think it might be.

Long form: What I was talking about was the timeline for when these types of games would overtake the flat-fee subscription-based ones, because I think that is going to happen someday. I gave that five years because of the lack of industry interconnectedness in the U.S. that exists in Korea. It's the reason I used "banks and Credit Card companies", not just one of them.

It has nothing to do with whether it's possible.The tech exists and has for longer than MMOGs have been around. It's all about the expertise to go pull it off. You don't just pick up the phone and call Verisign to do transactions like this. And this lack is because there isn't a perceived need because of how things currently are.

[Nyght]

Pogo, which was a subscription for premium access model,  seems now to be quickly moving to micro transactions. I am talking about within the last month or two. I believe the new 'currency' of jewels was introduced in Nov or Dec. As of January, maybe 80% of the premium bonuses (mostly 2d avatar upgrades) are available solely through this currency.

You can bet EA is watching this closely. WUA could well be shocked a year from now when there are items in UO that gold, or any other ingame item, cannot purchase.

My bets: Five years.. certainly. Hitting the fringes of the MMO worlds... this year.

[Trippy]

Err, I wasn't saying that at all. There are a number of microtrans-based games operating in the U.S. and more coming. We all know this.

Short form: tech there, desire not, and in five years (or so) I think it might be.

Long form: What I was talking about was the timeline for when these types of games would overtake the flat-fee subscription-based ones, because I think that is going to happen someday. I gave that five years because of the lack of industry interconnectedness in the U.S. that exists in Korea. It's the reason I used "banks and Credit Card companies", not just one of them.

It has nothing to do with whether it's possible.The tech exists and has for longer than MMOGs have been around. It's all about the expertise to go pull it off. You don't just pick up the phone and call Verisign to do transactions like this. And this lack is because there isn't a perceived need because of how things currently are.

You keep changing your argument or contradicting yourself -- you are worse than Geldon. I don't even know what point you are trying to make now cause you keep changing it. You somehow think that the US banking and CC industry is comparable to what's available in a Third World country or something despite the fact that most of those forms of payment you seem to think so highly of (oooh personal checks) were adopted here ages ago because of the needs of the porn industry. You seem to think that the US only knows how to handle CCs for electronic transactions which is the most bizarre assumption I think I've ever seen on this board. A recap:

First you say that CC fees are too high.

Then you say it's not the CC fees it's the lack of payment options.

Then you say it's not the lack of options but the lack of desire.

Then you say it's the lack of expertise to use all this technology we have laying around.

Finally you throw in some random Verisign reference as if they are some sort of savior to all of our electronic payment problems.

[Strazos]

I don't know why average players (or even people here) seem to be all excited over RMT. I think it fucking sucks, and I'm not sure I would even play a game that supported it. I'm perfectly happy with the GW model or the monthly sub model. MMOs are mostly already bad enough with how time = in-game power. Allowing money from outside the game to influence in-game performance just seems wrong to me.

[eldaec]

I've seen some debate about what is meant by....

or authorized to distribute it by the intellectual property owner.

In other words, are they really saying they are clamping down on RMT sales only where the IP owner disapproves?

It'll be a big deal for Magic Online if dealers can't use ebay.



As regards the discussion about non-US countries and the efficiency of electronic banking.... ahem, tbh, the US *is* a third world country in terms of its retail banking infrastructure. From a company's point of view card payments between asian and european countries are more straightforward (and certainly more secure) than dealing with the US market. In some countries debit cards, charge cards, or prepaid cash cards are more predominant than credit cards, but they don't work any different from the reciever's point of view, and so long as the recieving bank isn't US based, they rarely cause a problem. If something banking related is managable in the US, you can safely assume that it won't be problem in asian or european markets at least.

[Trippy]

As regards the discussion about non-US countries and the efficiency of electronic banking.... ahem, tbh, the US *is* a third world country in terms of its retail banking infrastructure. From a company's point of view card payments between asian and european countries are more straightforward (and certainly more secure) than dealing with the US market. In some countries debit cards, charge cards, or prepaid cash cards are more predominant than credit cards, but they don't work any different from the reciever's point of view, and so long as the recieving bank isn't US based, they rarely cause a problem. If something banking related is managable in the US, you can safely assume that it won't be problem in asian or european markets at least.

Right because the the US merchant system is so decrepit that US businesses only managed to do $80 BILLION dollars worth of gift card (aka a "prepaid card") purchases over the holidays last year. They must have routed all the purchases through Korean banks or something becuase you know US businesses can't handle those newfangled debit cards, charge cards, and prepaid cards.

Edit: fixed typos, change reference from bank to merchant

[eldaec]

I'm not suggesting the north american systems are completely non-functional. I'm suggesting that european and asian systems are, in general, more modern, easier to work with, and have the advantage of being run by a more consolidated and more efficient retail banking sector. And as a result I'm suggesting that no company who can make these things work in the US will have any significant difficulties making them work elsewhere.

In north america you have a situation where merchants are continually fighting a battle to drag the retail banking sector into the twentieth century. In europe and asia, it works the other way.

[Venkman]

First you say that CC fees are too high.

Then you say it's not the CC fees it's the lack of payment options.

Then you say it's not the lack of options but the lack of desire.

Then you say it's the lack of expertise to use all this technology we have laying around.

I don't know what your problem is. Did I dent your door with mine or something?

You want to argue one specific thing when what I'm trying to talk about is the state of things in general. You calling Korea or France a third-world country is alone enough to kill any potential for meaningful debate. But I'll give it one more try:

None of these things contradict themselves. CCs are high for each transaction, and there is a lack of payment options because there is a lack of desire to gain the expertise in order to pull off the integration needed. "Desire" is "need" stated another way. The "need" is more money. MMOs can make money on flat-fee. That's certain. But the rules for making a flat-fee game are now pretty tough for a lot of companies. So either they merge or find new ways to do business.

Gift cards? Try making ingame purchases from your mobile phone. We're just starting to talk about this here as one level of integration. How the industries are structured are just very different. You going to convince Verizon to add "buy uber sword" to their deck tomorrow?

I'm not being unpatriotic or anything. Christ man I really wish I knew what set you off like this. All I'm saying is that one of the reasons microtrans have yet to kick off here is for the reasons discussed above, and it's going to take time for those things to get worked out. There are other reasons of course, like the fact that the current vocal MMO community pretty much publicly states a dislike for anything resembling microtrans.

That's why I use 5 years. There's a lot more to it than just hiring someone who can call a bank.

[Trippy]

Gift cards? Try making ingame purchases from your mobile phone. We're just starting to talk about this here as one level of integration. How the industries are structured are just very different. You going to convince Verizon to add "buy uber sword" to their deck tomorrow?

And yet somehow someway Habbo Hotel in the US CAN DO EXACTLY THAT. Did you even read any of my posts?

[Valmorian]

They must have routed all the purchases through Korean banks or something becuase you know US businesses can't handle those newfangled debit cards, charge cards, and prepaid cards.

I don't know if it's any different there now, but the last couple times I was in the U.S. I was dumbfounded at how primitive the payment methods there were.  The very idea that you had to check to see if an ATM would service your bank card was so bizarre. 

I can walk into any convenience store (with the possible exception of some VERY remote mom & pop type deals) and just use my bank card to make any purchase here.  I can do the same with used book stores, etc.. hell, even the dollar stores here will take bank cards.  When I was in the States, that was a rarity, I needed to get a special "check card" or use a credit card to make transactions.

[Venkman]

Gift cards? Try making ingame purchases from your mobile phone. We're just starting to talk about this here as one level of integration. How the industries are structured are just very different. You going to convince Verizon to add "buy uber sword" to their deck tomorrow?

And yet somehow someway Habbo Hotel in the US CAN DO EXACTLY THAT. Did you even read any of my posts?

I never said no games were doing it. I'm always careful to use "most" when I know "all" is not true. There's a reason this has not become standardized across the genre yet. Part of that is player acceptance (that'll change with new players). The other part is the complexities of doing it.