WoW is dead. Long live WoW!

[Azazel]

Yes, that was one of the reasons I compared it to raiding TOV. As of the last time I played EQ seriously, there may have been a rare thingamabob of use, but it was pretty much all null and void. I wasn't directly comparing it to when Luclin came out, but to say a year or 2 ago from now maybe.

I know a guy who essentially lived in Naxx for months, right up till BC launched (seriously, he was in there like a day or two before release). he's replaced 4 items so far with greens. Not sure if they're quest or world-drop greens, but you get the idea.

My best guess is that they're simply trying to flatten out the playerbase's gear differential caused by 2 years of mudflating raid contentin the first part of the expansion to get us all on a somewhat even footing to start doing the content. How it pans out when we're mostly all 70 is going to be the truly interesting part.

[shiznitz]

It is an interesting design decision only because it is a new approach. It makes excellent sense to start a new expansion with a completely new gear tier because the content can be tuned more easily. This also lets a larger percentage of the playerbase actually enjoy the new expansion which will maximize its adoption.

EQ2 did almost the opposite with Echoes of Faydwer. Only the very top-end loot in EoF (the class-specific armor sets) is better that what one can get raiding in KoS. A character who levels from 1-60 in EoF will not be overpowered compared to a character that sticks to the DoF/KoS path. EoF is clearly an attempt to attact new players or encourage old players to come back/start over.

[Soln]

so, 2.4M BC copies sold for 8M subs?   Anyone figure out that delta yet?  just wonderin'

[WindupAtheist]

All of this says not only to raiders, but to every casual player that spent their one play night a week taking 5 hours to put together a group and run Scholomance/Stratholme/UBRS/Dire Maul that every bit of work they did is entirely worthless.

I have no idea or speculation on what all this will add up to, though.  It's a vast amount of old content made worthless and an unimaginably vast amount of effort on behalf of millions of players made worthless.

Look, it's someone crying about "work" and "effort" in an MMO being made "worthless".  What a surprise that it's someone who is intimately familiar with Everquest raids.

 

Pack up your poopsock and get out of my genre.

[stray]

Pack up your poopsock and get out of my genre.

You do realize that Blizzard is just buttering you up, right? Making 60-70 relatively pain free is roughly equivalant to them making 1-60 relatively pain free. At 70, the poopsocking will commence again.

[Valmorian]

You do realize that Blizzard is just buttering you up, right? Making 60-70 relatively pain free is roughly equivalant to them making 1-60 relatively pain free. At 70, the poopsocking will commence again.

At which point I will do exactly what I did when I hit 60 pre-expansion: Play alts, look for rare solo quests, PvP. 
I will continue this until the next expansion comes out and I can level again. 

In the meantime, I will laugh at all those who perform activities that they consider "work" and "effort" to obtain things in the game that will be made obsolete by the greens in the next expansion.  I'll be too busy having fun to really care all that much though.

[Jayce]

I agree with WUA.

The basic idea is 'you may as well have gotten to 60 and quit playing until Burning Crusade'.

Let's think about this.

The quote sort of makes sense, IF your only goal in the game is get loot, not have fun.  I don't know who plays specifically NOT to have fun, but I feel sorry for that person.  What is the payoff?  Why play?  The hardest hardcore catass, it can be assumed, expects there to be some positive payoff at some point, even if it's strutting around Ironforge with their new sword of wtfpwnage.

If someone plays both to get loot AND have fun, then the new loot in BC seems like it will be even better shiney which will enable the user to get to even more shiney at 70!  Problem? I don't see it.

The only personality that I can see having a problem with better shiney would be someone who is very jealous of their status as "master of MC/BWL/etc" and who hopes there is never additional shiney put into the game, because they have to go out and earn it all over again. 

"Who moved my cheese?" is a stupid question to ask in an MMOG.

[Azazel]

so, 2.4M BC copies sold for 8M subs?   Anyone figure out that delta yet?  just wonderin'

Well, that was apparently launch day sales. Since we all know that personal anecdotes are always the best measure of worldwide accuracy of any trend, I can say that I know quite a few people in my guild and a few RL friends who got it after day 1, though again I'm not sure of that was 2.4m shipped to stores or 2.4 sold through on day 1. Also, if 3.5m of those players are in China, I understand they haven't got access to BC yet. Not sure about Korea, etc (or even how Koreans get access to this sort of thing, what with the PC Bang thing and all. Do they need to buy a box each? NFI!)

You do realize that Blizzard is just buttering you up, right? Making 60-70 relatively pain free is roughly equivalant to them making 1-60 relatively pain free. At 70, the poopsocking will commence again.

I'm not quite so sure on that, this time around. The focus seems much more on small-group content and apparently the largest raid in BC there is 25 people. There's definately a feeling of them having backed up from the original catassiness of the former endgame. How it actually pans out, well thats remains to be seen.

I agree with what Jayce has said really.

[Venkman]

Yea, 2.4mil is for day one. And doesn't include it launching in China, which accounts for 40% of the subscribers.

So, on day one of BC box sales, roughly 60% of the current amount of subscribers purchased the box. 60-effing-%! That is unheardof.

But the 60% itself is sorta misleading because it doesn't tell us whether it was 60% of all current paying subscribers or people reactivating accounts to come back to WoW.

The number I'm really interested in is worldwide subscriptions around September, which I expect is about when the rest of the world has BC. Then we may be able to get an insight into how many people bought the expac and how many people re-upped their accounts. I have previously guessed in the 10mil accounts range. I just want to know if I will be close :)

[Fabricated]

I don't consider my time at 60 pre-expansion to be "worthless" since the gear I did have made it much easier for me to do the new content and get the upgrades (390 Defense at level 60 with pre-BC blue gear isn't too shabby). I'm HAPPY to throw all that shit away. I love upgrading my gear all the time so I don't have to stare at the same character every time I log in.

What's disturbing me about the WoW right now though is how priests DO NOT exist. I have not seen a single priest that isn't sporting Tier 1/2/3/Benediction, in other words, a priest from a raid guild. Has blizzard made them so awful to play that no one can stand to play them anymore?

[bhodi]

I'm playing my priest alt and am thrilled at all of the upgrades I'm getting. I'm 62.5, and have already upgraded more than half my collection. It's pretty sweet, I got my first socketed chest armor from the furnace and that nice staff from the ramparts. The only end-game instance I did before the expansion was ZG once or twice, so that's the level of gear I had when I started.

My rogue, of course, is full tier 2+ w/ 2 pugios. He's less fun to play. I think I prefer melting faces.

[Zane0]

Look, it's someone crying about "work" and "effort" in an MMO being made "worthless".  What a surprise that it's someone who is intimately familiar with Everquest raids.

Pack up your poopsock and get out of my genre.

It has nothing to do with poopsocking.  Playing with an achiever mentality does not by definition involve spending large quantities of time raiding to the detriment of your life in the real world.  Expending time and effort for loot, and having fun are not mutually exclusive; people can have good memories about crafting their drape of benediction, or killing Lord Valthalak for their 0.5 pieces, or whatever.  It is possible to argue that these accomplishments have been damaged by TBC inflation.  Personally, this isn't something that bothers me, but it is a legitimate concern that even 'casual' players can and have voiced.

My experience with the expansion so far has been great.  Instances are generally well done, rep 'grinds' can be finished in days, and the new content is very refreshing.  I am very concerned about what Blizzard is going to do to substain interest though, once the expansion stuff is burnt through.

Haven't tried heroic mode yet, but I have a feeling that they will use this idea a lot in the future.

[Valmorian]

Expending time and effort for loot, and having fun are not mutually exclusive; people can have good memories about crafting their drape of benediction, or killing Lord Valthalak for their 0.5 pieces, or whatever.  It is possible to argue that these accomplishments have been damaged by TBC inflation.  Personally, this isn't something that bothers me, but it is a legitimate concern that even 'casual' players can and have voiced.

Huh?  How would those accomplishments be "damaged"?  I don't get it.
If you do those things because you wanted the equipment and you thought it was worth it, then it was worth it for you. 
Those "achievers" still accomplished what they wanted.

[Zane0]

You don't get it? 

Let's say you get your full GM PvP set after a few months.  It feels good because it is something of consequence, as the stats give you a leg up relative to the competition.  Now TBC comes along- virtually anyone can get something roughly comparable in a fraction of the time by doing a simple quest in Hellfire Peninsula.  If you look at the game in terms of achievement, your past accomplishments don't seem very resounding any longer, and the value of your future efforts come into question as well.

The rational decision is to shrug and carry on, or to try looking at the game in a different way, but that's not how everyone reponds.

[Damn Dirty Ape]

It's kinda like the weenies on the City of Heroes message board who cried foul that vet rewards would be giving the unwashed masses their coveted prestige sprints.  It's an "I've got mine so fuck you" form of pathetic elitism.  As it's been already said, at least the whiners have still got all those fond memories of spending countless hours in company of 39 of their bestest friends.  *snicker*

 

[Koyasha]

I think the main issue I'm considering is that the old stuff is becoming obsolete too quickly.  Also, personally I don't like it when old zones are revamped (for the most part), I never liked any of the revamps in EverQuest, although I will say that the capping of dungeons and slight changes to them was something I liked in WoW back when they did that.  And right now it's clear that all the old dungeons will either be completely unused, or they will be revamped.

As people keep pointing out, right now, every bit of content designed for 58-60 players in original WoW below Tier 2 is completely obsoleted by Burning Crusade content that is available within the first few hours of entering the expansion.  The rest is obsoleted shortly thereafter, and all of it only provided a minimal benefit.  I mean, hell, doing Deadmines quests or running it for the Emberstone Staff/Cruel Barb/whatever is more useful to a character at this point, because those items will last a noticeable number of levels, which is not so for all level 58-60 things.

Anyone with any MMOG experience knows that all they do will eventually be obsoleted, and all they gain will be worthless someday.  But I, at least, expect a certain progression, a curve rather than a sudden vast leap in power available to everyone.  I can't really say much about how I feel about it because I never had much of the better stuff.  I got to Knight-Captain on one character ever, and that's about the best gear I ever got in WoW, and it's on a character I don't even play anymore.

Personally I feel as though at least similar levels of effort should be put into upgrading so quickly.  There's no other point in the game where greens outdo blues that are in fact higher level than them.  If the items from the first level 58-62 instance were the ones that replace instance items from before, and items from 62-65 or so were the ones to start replacing epic gear, that would seem much more appropriate.  The curve would still flatten out pretty quickly but it wouldn't give the sense of 'all I have to do is go talk to this guy then talk to that guy and they hand me armor far beyond what I have gotten through dozens of instance runs'.

[CassandraR]

My opinion is that they should continue just as they are with the next expansion. Every time people start to feel they 'earned' their gear they should give it away free to the casuals. Just to prevent stupid elitism.

[Merusk]

I don't consider my time at 60 pre-expansion to be "worthless" since the gear I did have made it much easier for me to do the new content and get the upgrades (390 Defense at level 60 with pre-BC blue gear isn't too shabby). I'm HAPPY to throw all that shit away. I love upgrading my gear all the time so I don't have to stare at the same character every time I log in.

Ditto on the gear thing.  My view has always been 'the only reason I "need" this gear is to see the next level of raid content."   If I could do raid content in blues & greens I would (and did.).  That's where my interest lies, seeing multi-group encounters and beating them.  Nothing I did was 'worthless' because I had fun going there and doing the actual encounters, the loot was just a bonus or something required to get to the next tier.  I don't like the 'lets do this level for 8-months straight!" aspect of it, but nobody seems interested in changing that part yet.

Hell, that's why I also don't have a problem with non-raiders getting the same level of gear.  If anything it makes picking-up newbs interested in the raid game that much easier.  You don't have to spend all the time back-instancing them to gear them out, or turning away cool people because, 'well you just don't have enough +<stat> so you'd be a corpse/ unable to hit/ oom and just taking up space.'

What's disturbing me about the WoW right now though is how priests DO NOT exist. I have not seen a single priest that isn't sporting Tier 1/2/3/Benediction, in other words, a priest from a raid guild. Has blizzard made them so awful to play that no one can stand to play them anymore?

Prettymuch, yes.  Low-level priesting is fucking hell.  I'm doing it again with the wife as we piddle around with blood elf characters, and I don't recall EVER dying this much with any other class and we're duoing for chrissake. Playing solo as a priest just plain sucks ass, and most folks who roll them want to heal and so go holy - the biggest mistake you can ever, EVER make trying to level.   I recall it getting better, but not until around level 20 or so. 

Then, there's grouping.  You take all the blame for everything in a group.  Tank dies, it's your fault.  Mage dies, it's your fault.  Try to some kind of dps becasue things are cool and you want to do more than stare at health bars, you get shouted-down by everyone else in the group. 

By the time anyone makes it to 60 they're looking for someone who's not going to treat them like shit.  Those happen to be raid guilds, but even there you suffer from burnout because priesting is the biggest pain in the ass out there.  Most seem to give up or roll a DPS class after 4-6 months.   So you suck in the next batch of 'new' priests and repeat the cycle.

[Venkman]

Then, there's grouping.  You take all the blame for everything in a group.  Tank dies, it's your fault.  Mage dies, it's your fault.  Try to some kind of dps becasue things are cool and you want to do more than stare at health bars, you get shouted-down by everyone else in the group.

This is the exact reason I decided to ditch my Draenei Priest for a Shaman. I don't care if I'm a clone. Just don't ask me to heal people. I don't like that level of accountability in my game.

"But DQ, it's just a game!"

Go play a Priest for a bit.

[Damn Dirty Ape]

Priests in WoW, just like in RL, need to constantly remind their flock that "you will inevitably die.  Deal."  So, only Arrr-Pee-Erz need apply for the position.

[eldaec]

It is an interesting design decision only because it is a new approach. It makes excellent sense to start a new expansion with a completely new gear tier because the content can be tuned more easily. This also lets a larger percentage of the playerbase actually enjoy the new expansion which will maximize its adoption.

This isn't new.

MMOGs that don't just make all new gear strictly better than all old gear are the exception, not the rule.

It doesn't change the fact in 6 weeks time when raiding has become established in the new areas, the catassess will be just as far ahead as they were prior to the expansion. All this means is that people who don't keep up go straight to the bottom of the ladder.


Usage based item decay is the only way you could ever change this. Unfortunately casual players will complain about usage based item decay even though their items will almost never get used enough to wear out.

[Koyasha]

This isn't new.

MMOGs that don't just make all new gear strictly better than all old gear are the exception, not the rule.

Actually as far as I can tell it is new, or it's new compared to any other game I've played long enough to still be interested when an expansion came out.  I can't really think of any other MMOG I've ever played in which an expansion comes out and the solo-obtainable gear there that can be obtained at the same or lower level is superior to raid-obtainable gear from previous 'current content' whether that be the original game or an expansion.  No, the quest greens/blues aren't superior to all raid obtainable gear, but they are to some of the earlier raid stuff.  And they're superior to any groupable stuff from the 5-man dungeons.

The speed of obsoleting old gear is something that as far as I can tell has never been done quite this fast and this completely before.  It's definitely different to any game I'm familiar with.  If another game has obsoleted old gear this fast before, I'd be interested to hear which one and when it happened.  In the end, I wonder whether or not this is a good thing.  It has good points.  It brings people up to a more significant power level quickly.  It makes it less necessary to low-ball the power on newer dungeons to allow for people that aren't well geared, instead, it just gets them well geared before they go into the dungeon.  But it has a lot of bad points also, not the least of which is making every older dungeon and raid completely pointless to do anymore, thus making large quantities of content no longer used.

Interesting thoughts about this...back in EQ, before instances, the strategy of progressing - doing Kael before Halls of Testing before North Temple of Veeshan before Ssraeshza Temple before Vex Thal...and so on...was an important one in order to make an attempt to spread people out.  It kept as much content as possible being used at once, as newer guilds attacked the older content in order to gear up for the new content, thus lessening the amount of people who were all competing for exactly the same mobs.  Instances make this unnecessary, so it's not a problem to have everyone jump directly to the most recent level of content.  Not forcing people to go through years-old content dozens of times in order to be ready to tackle the new content is a good thing.  On the other hand, it still brings up the problem of making old content obsolete.

From a content perspective, it's interesting to note that Burning Crusade adds a lot of content, but a lot of what it 'adds' isn't entirely added, but more along the lines of replacement content.  Since, from a practical perspective, no one will go to Scholomance, Stratholme, Blackrock Spire, Dire Maul, Zul'Gurub, Ahn'Qiraj, or any of the 40-man raid instances, all of that content has been effectively removed.  It may still be there, technically, but from a practical perspective, since there's no point to going there anymore, it's not really part of the game.

Progression throughout the other dungeons in the lower-level game is an excellent comparison too.  You go to Scarlet Monastery and get some stuff, and a few levels later, you're replacing some of that stuff with things from Razorfen Downs, then Zul'farrak and then Maraudon.  You can skip any one of these dungeons and still get by, but at the appropriate level for the dungeon, you can't just go to a different zone and do a solo quest and get a better weapon/armor. 

I think I'm starting to understand for myself the reason that this all bothers me - it's no longer a part of the game.  I was looking forward to those instances no longer being the end of the game where all there was left to do in PvE was repeat them ad infinitum, looking forward to seeing them become another stage in my characters' advancement, just like Scarlet Monastery or Maraudon.  A place I go to a couple times to get gear and then move along.  I didn't want to simply never go there at all.

[Chenghiz]

I think I'm starting to understand for myself the reason that this all bothers me - it's no longer a part of the game.  I was looking forward to those instances no longer being the end of the game where all there was left to do in PvE was repeat them ad infinitum, looking forward to seeing them become another stage in my characters' advancement, just like Scarlet Monastery or Maraudon.  A place I go to a couple times to get gear and then move along.  I didn't want to simply never go there at all.

Although I have no problem with never seeing Molten Core again, The thought that there's not any reason to see Stratholme or Blackrock Spire again does make me sad.

[Venkman]

As long as the quests still exist, players still have the compulsion to go to those places at least once. Just to see. I agree most people won't bother in their bid to get to 60 as fast as possible. But I never raided Scarlet Monastary either. I went for the quests and then to help others on their quests and then bid it farewell as I leveled beyond it.

Not forcing people to go through years-old content dozens of times in order to be ready to tackle the new content is a good thing.

And yet WoW did that anyway: MC>BWL>Ony>Naxx (I think that was it. I never did beyond MC though my guild regularly did Ony at times I couldn't go). I think this is for the same reason you stated earlier: distribution of players along the power curve. Instancing prevents the social issues of raiding in public space content, but the need to ensure everyone's not at the same level of uberness still exists in the game mechanic.

What I hope the previous ubers realize with this expac is just how many of them there were. As in, not. For Blizz to so seriously gut the size of raid forces, and to so radically increase the level of power across the board, even to the most casual soloer, is an indication that the power curve of the old world may have been too wide for too long.

This'll all come up again at 70, but will likely be mitigated by them pushing out an expac faster than two years. The road to Hyjal is long and wide. But a faster expac will prevent the power curve from broadening too much.

[Koyasha]

As long as the quests still exist, players still have the compulsion to go to those places at least once. Just to see. I agree most people won't bother in their bid to get to 60 as fast as possible. But I never raided Scarlet Monastary either. I went for the quests and then to help others on their quests and then bid it farewell as I leveled beyond it.

Some players do, newer ones perhaps.  But how many people playing now haven't seen the current instances at least once?  Probably not many, with the exception of the eternal-low-level types that have never made it to 60 and quite possibly never will.  And sure, we all go to the instances mostly for the quests, or occasionally for that one item that drops off a boss that we want.  But the difference is the quest rewards and the loot there are worthwhile.  No one would go to Scarlet Monastery to do the quests if you could get a sword that's better than the SM quest sword at level 32, would they?  I haven't heard anyone even consider going to Stratholme, Scholomance, etc, since the expansion hit...because, why would they?  Take the Ras Frostwhisper quest series.  It takes multiple runs to Scholomance AND one to Stratholme to get a Darrowspike which is inferior to the Screaming Dagger from a soloable quest in Hellfire.  Only new players that have never been to Scholomance and Stratholme might even be interested in the 'just to see' aspect.

[Venkman]

Well, yes, and this is why we were previously talking about the inevitable revamps of these places. It's sorta like what they've done with EQ1 over the years, except with much fewer zones.

Tune for a new generation of players and existing ones.

[eldaec]

Mudflation is just a cheaty way to keep people interested in new content. And mudflation is all this is.

It will do nothing to flatten the power spread between casuals and catasses unless you think that the new zones' most powerful gear is easily reachable by casuals?

The fact that casuals can get access to what was previously catass-only gear tells us nothing about what catasses will be able to get hold of once they figure the zones out (which will take a few weeks, not the two years another expansion will take).

Green gear stats alone tell us nothing. It doesn't confirm what level of gear casuals can reasonably hope to achieve. It doesn't tell us the gap between the greens and the absolute best gear (which is what last month's best raiders will be wearing in a week or two). It doesn't even tell us whether the relative power of a casual player vs the environment has risen or fallen.

This is most likely to end up exactly the same way as mudflation vs raider races ended up in every other dikumud. The only difference being that shorter grinds all around means the barrier to entry is slightly lower than say daoc or eq.

[Sairon]

It's very intresting in fact. Dikus are based on players sense of achievement once they finish a set up goal, more than often being getting a certain item. However, it's also common knowledge that the very item you're spending a lot of time getting will become totally useless in the future due to mudflation, effectively making that sense of achievement null. Of course all the sense of achievement you feel in a MMO is superficial, but it's still whack  .

[eldaec]

EQ2 did almost the opposite with Echoes of Faydwer. Only the very top-end loot in EoF (the class-specific armor sets) is better that what one can get raiding in KoS. A character who levels from 1-60 in EoF will not be overpowered compared to a character that sticks to the DoF/KoS path. EoF is clearly an attempt to attact new players or encourage old players to come back/start over.

This isn't important.

And I'm repeating myself now - but just to call out the bold bit.

In the EQ2 model, where the mudflation variable is just set marginally lower, the outcome is the same....

Prior to an expansion
 - a pre-expansion casual was a significantly less powerful than a pre-expansion uber-raider.

After an expansion
 - expansion owning casuals may or may not get more power than no-expansion casuals. Though the casual playstyle will do more to minimise the difference than any stats ever will.
 - an expansion owning uber-castass-raider is much more powerful than everyone else.

 - a no-expansion uber-catass-raider may be more or less powerful than expansion owning casuals, but it doesn't matter, because by definition uber-catass-raiders without the expansion do not exist.

[Merusk]

Mudflation is just a cheaty way to keep people interested in new content. And mudflation is all this is.

It will do nothing to flatten the power spread between casuals and catasses unless you think that the new zones' most powerful gear is easily reachable by casuals?

The fact that casuals can get access to what was previously catass-only gear tells us nothing about what catasses will be able to get hold of once they figure the zones out (which will take a few weeks, not the two years another expansion will take).

Green gear stats alone tell us nothing. It doesn't confirm what level of gear casuals can reasonably hope to achieve. It doesn't tell us the gap between the greens and the absolute best gear (which is what last month's best raiders will be wearing in a week or two). It doesn't even tell us whether the relative power of a casual player vs the environment has risen or fallen.

This is most likely to end up exactly the same way as mudflation vs raider races ended up in every other dikumud. The only difference being that shorter grinds all around means the barrier to entry is slightly lower than say daoc or eq.

You can already see the new level of gear out there in the factional areas of Shattrath city. It's not that superior to the greens and instance blues I've been getting to this point.  That's the new "uber" armor.  Blizzard seems very conscious of the over-inflation they did with the previous raid instances, and doesn't seem to want that same extreme power curve to happen again.

For a more concrete example.  Hunter Riftstalker A "tier-5" piece.   Vs  Feralfen Beastmaster's hauberk  A level 62 quest in the second zone of the expansion.   The level of power difference between these two items is pretty marginal considering the 8 level and item-budget differences (green vs purple.)  Unless there are some extremely uber gems out there, you're not going to see your character's power increase anywhere near as dramatically as you do between Greens and BWL gear.

[eldaec]

Now you're talking.

If the new uber gear turns out to not be so uber, that's genuinely a closing of the gap. But even in the example you gave, the difference between tier 5 and quest reward is three extra sockets, are the benefits you can get out of 3 sockets really not that significant?

And of course if uber gear really is only slightly better than green - the 'no end-game' uber whine may be along shortly.

[Venkman]

It will do nothing to flatten the power spread between casuals and catasses unless you think that the new zones' most powerful gear is easily reachable by casuals?

Not sure where I said this? Unless you were talking to Koyashu?

In any case, I agree. It's mudflation to compel expac purchase and drive retention. But it's because it works (as we can see).

Right now things are as they are because people are leveling up. But once a lot of people are banging on 70, it'll be 60 all over again. There was a very big difference between Tier 0.5 and Naxx stuff. But at the same time, there was a lot more people in 0.5 and 1 than in Naxx. I imagine we'll see the same thing. Not sure of the level progression or the zones involved, but I can see almost everyone being able to at least get into Karazhan, where most probably not Hyjal (or whatever the endest-endedy-end place will be).

[bhodi]

A few guilds started raiding back up this week, including mine. The word on the street is that it's insanely easy. Patchwerk's a joke, and Lotheb can now be done without potions

[shiznitz]

EQ2 did almost the opposite with Echoes of Faydwer. Only the very top-end loot in EoF (the class-specific armor sets) is better that what one can get raiding in KoS. A character who levels from 1-60 in EoF will not be overpowered compared to a character that sticks to the DoF/KoS path. EoF is clearly an attempt to attact new players or encourage old players to come back/start over.

This isn't important.

And I'm repeating myself now - but just to call out the bold bit.

In the EQ2 model, where the mudflation variable is just set marginally lower, the outcome is the same....

Prior to an expansion
 - a pre-expansion casual was a significantly less powerful than a pre-expansion uber-raider.

After an expansion
 - expansion owning casuals may or may not get more power than no-expansion casuals. Though the casual playstyle will do more to minimise the difference than any stats ever will.
 - an expansion owning uber-castass-raider is much more powerful than everyone else.

 - a no-expansion uber-catass-raider may be more or less powerful than expansion owning casuals, but it doesn't matter, because by definition uber-catass-raiders without the expansion do not exist.

All factually correct. My initial comment about how WoW's approach is new is simply that the mudflation effect of the new expansion is virtually instantaneous. The mudflation dymanic itself will always be part of diku.

[Fabricated]

It will do nothing to flatten the power spread between casuals and catasses unless you think that the new zones' most powerful gear is easily reachable by casuals?

Not sure where I said this? Unless you were talking to Koyashu?

In any case, I agree. It's mudflation to compel expac purchase and drive retention. But it's because it works (as we can see).

Right now things are as they are because people are leveling up. But once a lot of people are banging on 70, it'll be 60 all over again. There was a very big difference between Tier 0.5 and Naxx stuff. But at the same time, there was a lot more people in 0.5 and 1 than in Naxx. I imagine we'll see the same thing. Not sure of the level progression or the zones involved, but I can see almost everyone being able to at least get into Karazhan, where most probably not Hyjal (or whatever the endest-endedy-end place will be).

Tier 4 tokens drop out of Karazhan and the Tier 4 stuff is an upgrade over the best blue stuff from the 5-mans, but not nearly the "Holy Fuck" kind of upgrade the Tier 1/2 was over blues and Tier 3 was over 1/2. You won't be a demi-god in Tier 4 compared to someone in Dungeon Set 3, but you'll be measurably stronger. This may help for level 70 PVP as well.